Talk:Post–World War II air-to-air combat losses/Archive 1

Archive 1

Title and Falklands query

Surely the title of the list should use the full 'World War II' rather than the abbreviated 'WW II', in common with all our article titles that incorporate the name. Also, how does the 1982 British Army Gazelle friendly fire incident qualify for inclusion? It was shot down by sea to air missiles launched from HMS Cardiff (D108), not in any air to air action. Benea (talk) 17:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Removed the Falklands incident. -- Esemono (talk) 20:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Civil War

The Sri Lankan Airforce claims one air to air kill during the war, a ltte Zlín Z 143]].XavierGreen (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Done--Esemono (talk) 23:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Inflated U.S. claims?

"One of the factors in the inflated US numbers was that because most dogfights took place over enemy controlled area the only way to confirm kills was the gun camera. American pilots were credited with a kill if the gun camera showed their guns striking the plane even if no one actually saw the plane go down. This contrasted with Soviet methodology that required other pilots' testimony, ground evidence, gun camera footage and support from the Chinese and Korean ground forces."

Okay, so I think these sentences should be deleted from the first paragraph. Most credible sources I've seen attribute the high U.S. kill ratios to an actual better performance of American pilots over their opponents. It's definitely possible that kill ratios were due to discrepancy in the methodology used by the two sides, but until some credible academic scholars take a serious look at this issue and come up with a definitive narrative I don't think we should go around posting "alternate explanations" willy-nilly on Wikipedia Masterblooregard (talk) 17:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

1992 Venezualan coup

Several rebel 0V-10 broncos and tucanos were shot down by loyalist f-16s during the coup.XavierGreen (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

If you can provide WP:Reliable sources, feel free to be WP:BOLD and edit the article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was broadcast live on national Venezuelan television, so finding sources shouldn't be too hard for him.Batchuba (talk) 11:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

US losses during Vietnam war

losing 2,251 aircraft: 1,737 to hostile action, and 514 to operational causes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_losses_of_the_Vietnam_War

PLS update — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.215.218.155 (talk) 01:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Non-combat losses

I just removed an incident when the USAF shot down one of its own UAVs, clearly by any defintion not a combat loss. I have been reverted on the grounds that blue-on-blue should be considered combat losses. Has anybody have a reliable reference that non-combat losses are considered to be combat losses sometimes, thanks. If editors really want to include none-combat losses (and they are more that obviously are not included) then perhaps we should consider moving the article to Post–World War II air-to-air aircraft losses. 00:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Combat losses are those which have happened during a military conflict. All figures in the article include such losses and many a time, the situation specially during air to air combat is opaque. For example during Soviet-Pakistani air to air engagements, Soviets claimed that they had shot down a Pakistani F-16, while Pakistan maintains (with western sources) that it was a friendly fire incident. With each combat loss, there are claims and counter claims. US claims the black hawk shoot down incident was a friendly fire. Saddam regime had claimed that they had brought them down. Or take the example of Venezuela coup attempt in which planes were shot down during the coup. Or When Afghan-Soviet regime had shot down Afghan planes which had gone rogue. On the other hand, those air to air shoot down incidents which did not happen during a military conflict between opposition belligerents can not certainly be included in this list, for instance, the Japanese F-15 incident in which one Japanese F-15 had by mistake shot down another Japanese F-15 during a training exercise.--99.244.158.43 (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Non-Soviet Cold War Incidents

There were several losses during various cold war incididents between Nato and non-soviet communist forces which are not listed here. For instance there were a couple instances of Czech fighter aircraft engaging NATO warplanes which resulted in aircraft being shot down. These losses should be listed here as well.XavierGreen (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Recent changes

We do not make changes to cited content just because an editor thins Indian sources are not RS, if anyone feels a source is not RS we have a noticeboard for that. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Responding to March 2016 edit

Binkster: Just noticed your deletion of my amendment. After several years I have been unable to sign on to Wikipedia for many months so am hoping that you see this. My attempted reply on the edits page was refused.

My edit was totally valid. As I believe I said at the time, the North Vietnamese claim of downing 14 USAF F-105s in one day is absurd, and I cited my source, the US Govt list of in-flight losses in SE Asia during the Vietnam War. It is not online but I've had the hard copy for 30 years. IIRC something like 5 or 6 Thunderchiefs were known downed by MiGs that month, December 1966, let alone 14 in one day! For NPOV it should be possible to note one side's claims versus "Brand X's" published losses.

FWIW, I am former secretary of the American Fighter Aces Assn.

Over to you BT 72.223.111.15 (talk) 22:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Syrian Civil War

On June 8, 2017, a USAF F-15E shot down a Shahad-129 UCAV, which would qualify as a kill for the purposes of this list. I havent seen any specific attribution to the operator of the Shahad-129 in question though other than simply listed as "pro-regime forces". How should it be attributed on this list?XavierGreen (talk) 18:49, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Soviet losses in Afghanistan missing

Currently no losses are listed for the Soviet Union in their war in Afghanistan, even though they lost the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_aircraft_losses_during_the_Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War says they lost 451 aircraft.71.63.160.210 (talk) 05:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

It's air-vs-air not shotdowns.Mr.User200 (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2022 (UTC)