Talk:Praça dos Três Poderes

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Hey LOL, if that flag is 70 meters of size, then the flag pole must be at least some 500 meters (over 1500 feet) high... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.217.39.87 (talk) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 09:51, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

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Three Powers Plaza → Praça dos Três Poderes – Let's move the article to its natural name, the same way we have the article Place de la Concorde and not "Harmony Plaza." إيان (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose most sources I've found still refer to the English name of "Three Powers Plaza". "Place de la Concorde" is also frequently used in English. Harmony Plaza is never used in English, I don't even know of a universal English translation for the name (because nobody looks for one). Estar8806 (talk) 17:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Where exactly did you find these sources? Because they are not evident in English GBooks. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. See WP:UE. 162 etc. (talk) 22:45, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
• Disregard previous votes "Praça dos Três Poderes is" test = 12 books, vs. "Three Powers Plaza is test" = 1 book shows that the English WP:RS name is in fact "Praça dos Três Poderes" in English, so above comments are moot, the issue is not Portuguese name vs English name. Move to accurate current name as English WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

  Editors are invited to support or oppose requested moves, but suggesting that others be "disregarded" is in poor taste. Please see WP:RMCOMMENT. 162 etc. (talk) 22:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it was necessary to point out that your votes were based on following incorrect information. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose in line what other opposing editors have said, here as well as the page for the January 2023 incident at this location. I join the reprimand of the comment preceding this one. --Killuminator (talk) 09:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Does the opposition have any rationale that overrides that Praça dos Três Poderes is the English WP:RS name per "Praça dos Três Poderes is" test = 12 books, vs. "Three Powers Plaza is" test = 1 book, as raised by In ictu oculi? إيان (talk) 23:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Reliable sources covering the recent violent event over there have used the English name. This is more meaningful to English Wikipedia readers than some random books no one has ever read. --Killuminator (talk) 17:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

    That doesn't check out. 58,900 hits for "Praça dos Três Poderes" compared to a mere 191 for "Three Powers Plaza." إيان (talk) 05:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

    I was patient enough to check the first ten pages of that search, and found 99 results in Portuguese and one in English (BBC), which also provided the "Three Powers" translation. No such user (talk) 13:05, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

    • It's almost as if Portuguese speakers use Google to look up places in Portuguese speaking places and type in Portuguese. --Killuminator (talk) 17:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
    • Reliable sources covering the recent violent event over there have used the English name. Some have. Some haven't. The BBC, a very reliable English-language source, mostly uses the Portuguese name, for instance (usually with the English translation in parentheses afterwards, but still using the native name first). -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Place names are invariably best presented in their own language, and that is generally also their commonest name. WP:UE does not tell us to translate everything to English, however many editors misread it as saying that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
  • That's not what people are misreading. People are reading what English language sources are saying. Other people are posting Portuguese language media to make the case that this is the common name in English too. The first sentence is pure idealism, an opinion. --Killuminator (talk) 23:37, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
    • I said people often misread it as that, which is entirely true. I've seen UE used as a justification in so many RMs, as though there was something wrong with using the native name because it's "foreign". To me, that's pure ignorance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:21, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
      • To you that's pure ignorance, to some it's a language right or a Wikipedia policy or guideline. --Killuminator (talk) 11:46, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
        • No, it is not. UE does not say "translate everything into English". However, many editors seem to think it does. That's my point. And I'm a native English speaker from England, incidentally, so I have no axe to grind regarding retention of foreign names. I do, however, regard it as ignorance when people cannot conceive of retaining names in their original language. It's completely unnecessary. If a place is invariably referred to in reliable English-language sources using a translated name or an "Anglicised" name (like Venice or Moscow, for instance) that's different, but we should not be translating names for the hell of it unless they are commonly translated in the sources. And in my experience, they rarely are. Looking at sources, the British media uses both, but seems to use the Portuguese name a little more frequently (especially on the BBC). The American media likewise. As to translations, when they are used, there seems to be no agreement on whether it's Three Powers Plaza, the Plaza of Three Powers or Three Powers Square. Which is often the problem with translation and why it's generally best to use the native name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:18, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

          Per WP:UE: " If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." Your statement above that "we should not be translating names (...) unless they are commonly translated in the sources" is not accurate - unless there is a clear preponderance of English-language sources using the foreign-language term, Wikipedia policy is to translate the name. 162 etc. (talk) 17:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

          translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader. Clearly does not apply. This is not a descriptive name, but the name of a place. How does this provide "greater understanding for the English-speaking reader"? It's pure pedantry and igorance: "Aaarrrgh, it's furrin, help!" And, as I have already pointed out, there is no established English translation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:21, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

          We're going in circles here, but I'll repeat once more for clarity.

          • "(...) I have already pointed out, there is no established English translation" - User:Necrothesp
          • "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it" - Wikipedia policy

          162 etc. (talk) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

          Only if it's worth translating and there's a translation that everyone accepts. Just translating it to an English name for the sake of it is pointless and is not mandated by UE. I remain utterly mystified with this obsession some editors have with translating everything into (often not very good) English when there is a perfectly good native name. What on earth is the point? What precisely does it achieve? -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:35, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: What is the most common name of the plaza in English, again? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Praça dos Três Poderes, per all the concrete evidence presented in this discussion:

• ngrams
• 12:1 published books
• 58,900:191 Google News).

إيان (talk) 07:07, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

إيان: Can we do the searches properly please?

• ngram including "Three Powers Square" shows that it is abut as common as "Three Powers Plaza"; taken together, they still lag behind the "Praça dos Três Poderes", but not overwhelmingly so.
• [1] "Three Powers Square" (without an "is") produces hundreds of results. [2], "Three Powers Square is" has at least a dozen (hard to tell).
• As I pointed out above, your Google news search is useless since it includes 99 out of 100 hits in Portuguese.

I'm pretty neutral, and I pretty much agree with Necrothesp's points above, but this case is not so straightforward as you make it to be. No such user (talk) 09:22, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per ngrams. BilledMammal (talk) 02:59, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. Ortizesp (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.