This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Wikipedia. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 26 days ago6 comments2 people in discussion
@Jjazz76: Per your revert, I'll explain why I removed information about Shafik authorizing arrests. There have been plenty of controversies involving Columbia presidents – for instance, Bollinger'srole in the Columbia Unbecoming controversy or Kirk's role in the 1968 protests. The only time controversy is mentioned is when it led to the president's departure (see Kirk and, to some degree, Cooper). I'm not attempting to condone what happened, but I think we should avoid overweighing recent events and keep the list at a high level; details about each president's term are best suited for those individuals' articles. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is an interesting point. I actually looked into Kirk's "retirement" (I assumed until this year he had resigned) and he said he was basically just retiring. So based on that logic we should remove Kirk's affiliation with 1968, which I think we obviously shouldn't.
I could see in five years if other stuff happens in her presidency removing it, but right now, April 2024 is Minouch Shafik's Columbia legacy, and frankly her life's legacy, like it or not. It doesn't make sense to include that she was the former President of the LSE, and then oversaw this massive civil disturbance at Columbia which sparked protests on 100+ campuses. Jjazz76 (talk) 01:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
The general trend for BLPs is to lean towards exclusion (WP:BLP: BLPs must be written conservatively). In this case, that would mean we start from the presumption that the controversy doesn't merit inclusion and wait for time to prove otherwise, especially when it comes to controversy. Also consider WP:BLPBALANCE: Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times. If the existing trend is not to mention various controversies, it can come across as unfair to mention this one; it is very difficult to judge if it's fair to mention one controversy but not another without running into WP:DUE issues. The exception, as I noted, would be if it leads to departure, as other reasons for departure (death, other jobs, ...) are included. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
feel free to include other controversies. This is isn't a page to brag about various Columbia presidents in my opinion. I don't see any issue with making Nicholas Murray Butler feel bad, as long as it is concise. The arrests that Shafik ordered pretty obviously merits inclusion. Just google the name "Minouche Shafik" and you'll find abundant sourcing and discussion on the first page of Google. I'm literally watching a whole Frontline episode that features discussions of it prominently. Jjazz76 (talk) 04:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Of course the first results right now are going to mention it – searches will generally show current news stories near the top. That doesn't mean those results are going to stay near the top long-term. RunningTiger123 (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
A fair point. I still think it should included. It takes up a pretty sizeable chunk of her own page, which many editors have worked on over the past few months or so. The volume of coverage and duration was pretty widespread. I'm happy to revisit the issue in a year or two, but we'd be doing our readers a disservice by not including it at the moment. I'm happy to hear what others think though. Jjazz76 (talk) 17:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
