Talk:Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

→

Archive 7

Redundant Line

The line "The Act promises taxpayer-backed indemnity for extraordinary nuclear incidents while providing for limited compensation to victims." is both inaccurate and redundant, and should be removed. Simesa 10:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with respect to redundant. Because the indemnity is "Legal" indemnification, while the compensation is "financial". You may have liability insurance on your house, but if something really terrible happened - in excess of your insurance - you would still be legally responsible, and if you commited a crime, your insurance might not cover you. That is not the kind of indemnity nuclear plants get. They have full "Legal" indemnity which means it is against the law for victims to sue a nuclear plant for damages - in excess of the insurance - now imagine that in any other context - it's disturbing, as much for what it does, as for the mere fact that some believe it is necessary. Benjamin Gatti

Redundant Phrase

Removed to Discussion "all nuclear reactors and" as redundant Simesa 09:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect and Inflammatory Phrase

Removed to Discussion "The Act promises taxpayer-backed indemnity for extraordinary nuclear incidents while providing for limited compensation to victims." The Act doesn't promise that, it covers far more than extraordinary events, and compenstion to victims is not necessarily limited. Simesa 09:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I think "Extraordinary Nuclear events" is the actual text of the Act - and certainly the intent. Benjamin Gatti

Unbalanced Phrase

Removed to Discussion "to the detriment of United States citizens" as unbalanced - we don't say that Congress believes it is to the benefit of the citizenry, although it clearly does. Simesa 09:30, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Anytime you subsidize a lethal activity by restricting the right of states to protect their citizens from bad acts - it is to the detriment of citizens. Benjamin Gatti

Uncited Phrase

Removed to Discussion "The Act makes available a smaller pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident than is required under law for all other corporations ." as stated twice and not cited either time. Simesa 09:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

This has been established and agreed to under mediation. Clearly this is the purpose of the law. Benjamin Gatti

Incorrect Phrase

Removed to Discussion "In addition, damage awards and punitive judgements are capped." which is incorrect in that awards are capped only if pool limit is reached and Congress does not act. Simesa 09:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

No punantive judgementts are excluded altogether - in fact state courts are excluded - which is where punative damages are awarded (by juries of one' peers) civil actions in federal court are taken before a judge I believe.

As to Mediation

I'm afraid Mediation has ended with little effect other than to preserve misleading information on the Wikipedia and in general to disrupt the wiki process. Because the pages have been unprotected by someone other than the mediator - the effect is that the mediator has lost control of the situation, and we are therefore operating under a new framework. Unless we agree to abide by the principles established in mediation voluntarily - we will quickly find ourselves escalating the edit wars. Benjamin Gatti

I reverted back to the last Mediated article. We're adhering to the Mediation rules - it's you that want to try to make the Nuclear Power article part of this Mediation, which it is not and was never agreed to be. You want mediation on Nuclear Power, file for it separately. Simesa 20:53, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Um Ben, the article was taken off of protection when Ed left for vacation. How do you think we were doing text moves? We need to keep in mediation. We haven't resolved a thing. The reason why things went on hold is that Ed went on vacation, but he's back now. I see no reason to end the mediation process. FYI, the protection was taken off on July 20nd. It does NOT mean that mediation is over in the least. I don't think it's quite right that someone can just unilaterally end mediation. Besides, you knew that Ed was going to leave for a bit to go on vacation. You seem to be pleading ignorance here. --Woohookitty 21:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Um, no WHK, actually it was restored after he returned - but perhaps during the time the he was banned for deleting VfD.

Please sign your posts. If you continue to not sign them, further action will be taken. Thanks. --Woohookitty 02:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Look, as mediator, Ed has upheld my argument which is that government doesn't get a free pass when it comes to disputed assertions. That is settled. If Simesa wants to avoid another losing edit war, which apparently he does, then reeverting to the mediated version makes sense - I will do my part by being only equally radical in my edits. Benjamin Gatti

Fine Ben. Then let's put this up for arbitration. And by the way, show me where he said he upheld your argument. I want exact verbage and an exact quote. Your idea of "settled" is quite strange. Even if Ed made such an assertion, it would've been something that we would've had to agree to. It was mediation, not arbitration. Nothing Ed says is binding. And he will tell you that himself. He's said it himself many times. And by the way, your "if Simesa wants to avoid another losing edit war" sounds like a threat to me and it also sounds like bad faith. You are basically threatening him to stay in line with what you do or else. You have no chance in arbitration Ben and you know it. So give it back to Ed and we'll continue where we left off. My patience with your style is at an end. Wikipedia is collaboration. It is not threats and it is not someone unilaterally ditching mediation when he's decided that it doesn't suit his needs. I really wish you'd put your energies into something that can further your cause. Brother, pulling your BS on Wikipedia is not the way to do it. --Woohookitty 02:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Whao there Who's who. Nobodies Threatn'in - aside from I think thats not allowed and all - I'm just thinking Simesa realizes he doesn't want to lose another edit war - so he did the right thing - that as they say is progress. You're right - nothing Ed does is binding - a point so many have found a way to make lately. Really - I mean are you at all up on what's going down? Ed's in arbcom - ah the irony - we went to the marriage counselling, and the shrink commited suicide. If you check - Ed agreed with my position that the government's opinion must be couched - there's reams of it there - if you need me to find it for you - then you weren't paying attention. I couldn't possible win any more in arbitration than I have won already - so I'm not going to be the one knocking on their door - but if my style offends you so much - why don't you discuss it with Uncle Ed? I'm not here to make friends - I'm here to make a difference. And I appreciate your participation - regardless of your positions, Thank you. Benjamin Gatti

Right, so you are going to use this to your advantage and beat the system, which has been your goal all along. By the way Ben, I am probably going to put a request for comment up for you to question your behavior through all of this. Thanks and have a nice day. I'm tired of dealing with you and it's time we get others to question your methods. And quit being condescending and quit acting like I'm being McCarthy...THAT is what offends me...not your style. --Woohookitty 03:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that McCarthy burned books - I was thinking more like Chairman Mao - who burned not only books but violins as well. (Apparently he was anti-violins). Censorship is censorship - you think you can draw the line between good censorship and bad censorship? Why you - if you why not anyone else? What uniquely qualifies WHK to decide what is proper censorship and what is improper censorship - once you admit that the item is factual - where do you get off censoring it. I welcome the opportunity to illustrate again the dangers of censorship - I would not look forward to what could only be described as an invitation for personal attacks. Benjamin Gatti

I'm on vacation, but popped in because Woohookitty emailed me about the unprotect. I'm pretty much tired of dealing with this intractable dispute, which appears to have been abandoned by its mediator. I'd support an RFC, or even taking it to ArbCom, but I won't be an active participant in anything until I'm back from vacation. The beach is 30 feet from where I sit right now, and I'm about to go dip my toes in the water as it sneaks up on 3 a.m. · Katefan0^(scribble) 07:01, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

I reverted back to the last Mediated version, following the rules we said we'd adhere to until Uncle Ed advises us to do differently or someone files for arbitration - which, Ben, you'd lose.

I didn't lose an edit war - I took the proper course to deal with an ideologue. Simesa 07:06, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

If you read the Request for Mediation, and then the Mediators statement on the Request, I think you will see pretty clearly that I was indeed correct on the issure presented for Mediation - The Government is not immune from being couched with respect to its opinions. Perhaps we both won. Benjamin Gatti

I think we'd be all served well if you dropped this "win loss" mentality. Oh and I want to make sure that you guys are aware of the 3 revert rule. I will be watching it like a hawk. --Woohookitty 18:00, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Are we in Mediation or not? If yes, then we should be using the Mediated version. If not, then there's nothing sacred about the "Mediator's last version" - and I intend to file for Arbitration. Simesa 20:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I concur. I think it's time for arbitration. --Woohookitty 20:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with the outcome of mediation, and I'm satisfied that the pages are unlocked. There is nothing in mediation which supports your removing every negative fact from these two articles, and so long as i have 3 reverts, i intend to prevent you from gutting actual facts from the article without discussion. Benjamin Gatti

What would you arbitrate - Ben is violating the 1.5 reverts a day rule? - good luck, I may choose not to participate in that farce. Benjamin Gatti

We would be arbitrating which version of this article should survive. It would be a way of finalizing things. Otherwise, we're going to be at this for months and months and months. Mediation is supposed to end the dispute. It didn't end anything, which is shown by the continual reverting we're going through now. If you don't want to participate, fine. Our side will win by default and then when you try to change the article to the way you see fit, you will probably be reprimanded and then banned. It's not a threat...it's what happens when people violate the rulings of arbitration. As far as I know, we'd both submit what we want as the final version of the article and then ArbCom would decide which version should be kept. Their decision is final. Please don't feign ignorance, Ben. I mean really. You know what mediation and arbitration are. They are both designed to come to a final outcome. We haven't had a final outcome yet. Taking Ed's comments as meaning that you "won" is a complete joke. The issue of government being treated as authoritative is not our only issue here. And if you think it is, then YOU are the one who hasn't been paying attention. You are completely ignoring the whole issue of this article being tilted towards your side even more and also whether history should be included here and all sorts of other things. What you consider "facts" are actually opinion. That is another point of contention. Need some more? You refuse to submit to arbitration because you know that we would win...end of story. So spare us. --Woohookitty 21:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

My objection at this point to arbitration is that it seems a waste of what must be their valuable time. Arbcom is going to set a final version - which remains until it gets edited by who knows who and then what? You think there is finality? One cannot step in the same river twice. Aside from which they seem occupied with eating their own young at the moment. Benjamin Gatti

Arbcom prefers not to take up content disputes. But they do look at conduct disputes. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Since Ben's actions have taken us out of Mediation, there is no longer any reason not to insist on an accurate, fully cited and non-pov article. Simesa 06:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Ed Poor wants to continue to mediate, so I have reverted back to the last mediated version. Simesa 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm in if Ed's in. I may go fall on my sword in another article, but when I'm back from being banned - let's roll. Benjamin Gatti

The mediation is not over until official decisions have been made and they haven't been. Ben is just gaming the system again by declaring himself as the "winner". And quit telling me I'm not paying attention. You must be a joy to live with. --Woohookitty 16:40, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Wales Article on Wikipedia

We probably all should read [1] Simesa 16:57, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Well ways of treating bad actors need to be added to Wikipedia. --Woohookitty 18:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Just exactly as soon as we agree on ways of defining bad actors. In fact - if I get to pick who is a bad actor - i'll let you decide what to do with them. Benjamin Gatti

It will be done by consensus I am sure. --Woohookitty 19:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It will be done with consensus in keeping with established and Prefacto rules? - or _just_ consensus? May I remind you that both the Holocaust and the enslavement of blacks was done by consensus. "Consensus" buys you zero moral highground. Even suggesting that it does places you in rather dark company. Benjamin Gatti

Have you looked at the vfd pages? Everything on here is done by consensus. Everything. I am not looking to buy moral highground. Not everything is a battle, Ben. I was just stating the fact. For once, leave it at that and don't try to make a battleground out of it. --Woohookitty 19:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Back from being banned in violation of written rules - but hey what are a few rules amongst friends

Let's roll. Benjamin Gatti

I'm surprised it took that long. --Woohookitty 14:34, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

While I may have stepped on 3RRs before, and I may have leaned on a few other rules - in this particular case, I was objectively right, and the action was a deviation from written rules - but what are a few rules amongst kings? Benjamin Gatti

Price-Anderson Extended

The President signed the Energy Policy Act of 2005 today - Price-Anderson extension to 2025 was in there. Simesa 20:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

With the signing of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, this article became inaccurate. After advising the Mediator, I changed the numbers but not the text. Simesa 00:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

No Objection - for the sake of currency, I suggest you take a liberal hand with including the latest "No Lobbyist left behind Bill" in the article. Particularly how it was necessary in 2005 - after 40 some years of development for the industry to have "special case" insurance at taxpayers expense. Benjamin Gatti

Proposed added phrase

Ben has proposed adding the following phrase to the end of the intro:

"In recognition of the continuing fact that even future nuclear power plants will be far too expensive and dangerous to afford liability insurance and still compete with safe and clean wind power, the Republican dominated House of Representatives extended the provisions of Price Anderson insurance subsidies in the Energy Policy Act of 2005."

I have not seen a source indicating that the House of Representatives concedes that. My reading of the House's actions are exactly the opposite. Simesa 06:51, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

By including it in the Bill - they concede the contained facts. Nuclear still needs a serious leg up to compete. The 50% subsidies concede it. As do the Insurance provision concede the fact that they are necessary. We argue that Price is necessary for nuclear - why - because without it - nuclear would be uncompetative. If they had to pay their own insurance - they couldn't compete on price - is their any other way to see it? Benjamin Gatti

My personal interpretation is that Congress feels that the plants are safe, $10 billion is sufficient and the government is not taking on any significant risk - but that's uncited and/or pov and doesn't belong in the article, let alone in the intro. (I think we do have cites that paying for the insurance isn't a big deal, getting it at all is.)

The subsidies I interpret as a one-time motivation to get past the next round of new government regulations, as they only kick in if there are construction delays - after UP TO six plants, there are no more construction subsidies. Again, pov, as I know of no one who has explicitly said this. Simesa 21:42, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You might as well argue that agriculture is not competitive because it is subsidized, and we should all go back to hunting and gathering! pstudier 23:17, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

Agriculture in this country propbably is not competative so long as we allow the importation of child labor-produced fruits from foriegn countries which themselves subsidize agriculture because it is an export. Yeah, I don't have any magic bullet for untangling the subsidy/free trade problem, but I think we can be as honest about it as possible. I think (wasn't it your referance) that 95% of subsidies go to nuclear is important and telling. and the fact that "Safety Insurance" is the area of the subsidy is also telling. If nuclear is safe - we should shout it from the rooftops. And if not as well. Price Anderson is as clear an admission as one is likely to get that nuclear plants CONTINUE to be dangerous - even future plants. Benjamin Gatti

Again, I disagree with your interpretation that Price-Anderson is an admission that nuclear is unsafe. But if you can find a cite, I'll vote for putting it in Criticisms. Simesa 01:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Status?

What is our status? Are we happy with the article or are we all taking vacation at the same exact time? :) --Woohookitty 11:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I think our limiting factor is Uncle Ed. I'm available daily except Saturdays. Simesa 17:48, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the world has taken itself by storm. I'm pretty busy despising the administration for much more than an absurd energy policy. BTW, did you realize that marriot is invested in synthetic coal because it saves them 405 million in federal taxes? Why, if we're going to have pork barral projeccts - aren't they at least aimed at something safe and renewable?

"I will protect you." Dick Cheney 2004

Benjamin Gatti

Ben, go start a blog. That's where all of your rantings belong. NOT here. Applying your passion to Wikipedia is a waste. It's pointless. Wikipedia is not a massive blog. Not not not not not. --Woohookitty 04:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Text

Could someone provide a weblink to the complete text of the act, please, so that (I hope) everyone can make her/his own judgment? Mami 15:43, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The original act was passed some years ago - its "provisions" as extended, which continue to bear the name of the original act, are contained in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Have fun with that. It's probably not the best or fastest way to get up to speed on the act. I doubt the Senators who voted on the Act actually read it. Perhaps the GAO analysis is the more broadly accepted synopsis.) Benjamin Gatti

I tried in vain to find the act during the mediation process and I couldn't find it. Just isn't out there. --Woohookitty 01:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Since "Acts" are generally a list of additions and modification to existing law, one can often find the substance of acts in the sections of law they affect. If I recall, Price Anderson initially is fairly well contained in a single section of federal code - which again would show up in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (where I believe little more than the dates were changed to extend the provisions.) The Act was written in 1957, a number of years before everything was expected to be on-line in real time. Benjamin Gatti

Thanks for your effort anyway. Mami 13:59, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Mediation Status

In order for mediation to be declared over, either the mediator needs to declare it over or the parties must agree that everything is agreed to. Neither has happened here. Ben, you cannot unliterally declare it over. I think we need another mediator. I know you feel like you "won", but we 3 do not agree with you. So we need another mediator. Our mediatior getting into trouble does not end mediation. --Woohookitty 01:10, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I think as a practical matter, the mediation has wound down. I will consent to "calling it a draw" and recognize that we have made progress, at very least in terms of understanding each other's points of view. I suggest if someone wants mediation - they should go through the regular channels. - and for the record, I have no problem with Ed continuing to mediate, but he'll have to show up; at this point its been several months with no progress - we all have to move on. Benjamin Gatti

I don't agree that it's over and I highly doubt that Simesa and kate will either. --Woohookitty 02:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

We'll I suppose that approximates what some would call pergatory, and others might term nervana. I'll accept that "it's on" when I see some forward progress, until then, I would consider it to be mutually suspended. Benjamin Gatti

Btw, mediation is not a win or loss scenario. It's not a "draw" or a "win" or a "loss". --Woohookitty 04:01, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

It is certainly not over, and I'll resist any unilateral changes, Ben. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

And yet it is Woohoo who suggests that it is about winning (see above near "won"). I hate to interfere when one is arguing with one's self. I'm open to hearing from anyone, including Ed, or anyone else masquerading as a mediator. In the meantime however, I have to recognize that from a factual matter - there's no a whole lot of mediat'in going on 'round here. Benjamin Gatti

Excuse me, but what are you talking about? I was saying that you seem to think it is about winning or losing. That's how you treated it up above. --Woohookitty 23:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The Tedium meter just hit ten, but for the sake of participation, it seems that you are discussing mediation in terms of winning and losing, and then change you're mind - leaves me wondering would you suggest that arbcom isn't about winning either?

I'm going to stop engaging you in these types of discussions. You are just a playground bully. I know what I said. You are just twisting it to start a fight. --Woohookitty 01:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

In the interest of mediat'in - What is the issue to be mediated? In what way is any party unsatisfied with the status quo? (1) (2) Benjamin Gatti

Simple. You showed a couple of days ago that you still want to add POV material to the article. We need to go through mediation or arbitration to come up with a final version of the article that we are all happy with. And then that will be it. No more adding stuff about how it's a handout to the nuclear industry and all of that jazz. How can you possibly say that mediation is over when you are still adding stuff like that to the article? The whole point of mediation is to come to a FINAL decision on the article. Final means final. It means no more adding of stuff like you tried to add 2 days ago. In fact, doing what you did could be grounds for a request for comment opened up on you if mediation was indeed over, which it isn't. --Woohookitty 01:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

My chief objection is that it is hard to understand how the Act works from this article. That section needs to be re-written. And I agree that we have to reach a formal conclusion, at least between the four of us. Simesa 01:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The whole point of mediation or arbitration is to end the discussion...to end hostilities so to speak. And yes, honestly, reading this article, I don't quite understand how it works. I mean do nuclear power plants and such petition for the money or are they given it automatically or what? --Woohookitty 04:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

On that point - the Supreme court has included a paragraph of its own finding about "How the Act works" I suggest that we fully incorporate the Supreme courts brief description of the act. This has the elegance of being vetted by the leading authority - and it is not overly verbose - we could agree on some 6th grade english for the parts that need it, but I have great faith in that approach over continuing to argue amongst ourselves who is the least biased and rightly fit to translate the act into the common tongue. Benjamin Gatti

Sorry to neglect you guys so long. My status at Wikipedia has changed somewhat, but if you still need me as a Mediator, I am willing to continue. Uncle Ed 03:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

If you're game and you care to participate - I believe I speak for all of us (in this alone) when I say that you have been missed - and that in your absence, we have been little more than treading water. With respect to the current mattter at hand - there is a general complaint (including by outside interested parties which have contacted me via email) that this article fails to effectively describe the act. I have proposed as a start that we incorporate to the extent possible the actual text of the Supreme courts interpretation because there isn't really a better analysis, and much as I respect Simesa's views on the technical operation of a nuclear reactor, I doubt that any of the current editors can lay claim to a legal understanding that exceeds that of the SCOTUS. Does anyone object in principle to that approach? Benjamin Gatti

I concur. --Woohookitty 05:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good solution. Simesa 12:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Glad to have Ed back, but I'll reserve judgment on whether or not the Supreme Court's text -- as inserted by Benjamin -- is properly represented or adequate at all. I noted that he inserted some Supreme Court text, but removed the properly sourced text about Congressional intent. If that's your solution, to me it's no solution at all. · Katefan0^(scribble) 13:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Attribution of views

Do we all agree that the Supreme Court of the United States is:

• is composed of human beings
  • who are fallible
  • who were each appointed by a U.S. president
    • and confirmed by the U.S. Senate
• renders opinions which are
  • sometimes unanimous
  • sometimes split (even closely split, like 5-4)

I have another question based on this, but let's ease into this, shall we? Uncle Ed 16:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Agree

Concur. Simesa 17:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Unquestionably. Benjamin Gatti 00:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Disagree

Neutral/other

Would like to see what the other question is based on these before I answer. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I forget what the next question was going to be! Uncle Ed 16:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

So we have agreement to accept the Supreme Courts "take" on the act as authoritative. Excellent work. I'll get it pasted in as soon as I get a better connection. Cheers, Benjamin Gatti

I think using the Supreme Court is potentially fine, depending on what you intend to "paste" in. If in doing the "pasting" you delete other content, no, I don't agree to that. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Not so fast, Ben. I don't see the "agreement" above as implying that the Supreme Court's take on anything should be considered authoritative. Can we confirm that, please:

US Supreme Court opinions regarding nuclear power, insurance and indemnity shall be considered authoritative for the purposes of writing and editing the Wikipedia article on the Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (Where the decision is supported by a margin > 1, and is substantially uncontroverted, and where the legislature has not since substantively ammended the relevent language, and where no lesser court has since concluded otherwise) (added by Benjamin as suggested qualifiers)

Support: Benjamin Gatti 02:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC) Oppose:

Other:

I knew something would follow from the above poll, but I didn't have this specifically in mind. I was following my intuition. (I thank my wife for helping me learn to trust my intuition more. *kiss, kiss*) Uncle Ed 17:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to fit this in above, so I'll state it separately. I think what we're looking for here is "findings of fact", as in "the Court finds the following facts to have been proved by a preponderance of the evidence. The Court shall state the conclusions of law to be drawn therefrom in a separate Memorandum and Order to be filed in due course." I believe that the legality of Price-Anderson is an issue already settled. Simesa 17:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't mean to seem obstreperous, but I don't want to get railroaded into agreeing to something sight unseen. What exactly are you talking about adding, here? I would much rather talk about whether we agree with the specifics of language proposed to be added than ask folks to agree to these definitive but rather uncontextual statements just hanging out in the ether. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

-To Simesa - I would jump at the opportunity to overturn the Price case, and I think it quite possible - remember the case was prior to Chernobyl, and thus the potential for damages was largely speculative rather than demonstrable. Moreover, the presumption was that nuclear energy was critical and meaningful, I doubt the State would be given as much room to argue that nuclear is so important as to justify suspending federalism these days etc. That said - I find the Supreme court's analysis of the law to be persuasive. I do not find their decision with respect to it's Constitutionality equally persuasive - but that point is not contended. It has been tested and it has passed muster - for now. I am merely suggesting that their finding - not of the risks etc, but of the "workings" of Price Anderson, and the transfer of liabilty schedule is clear, concise, and quite likely the single most responsible summary of the act - "they" say no one gets fired for buying IMB, I suppose in law, no one gets fired for quoting the Supreme Court - and that's why I suggest we do so. It avoids partisanship, and really any claim of bias. Benjamin Gatti

My head will commence spinning in 5, 4, 3, 2...--Woohookitty 02:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Why keep us in suspense? Why don't you just post a link to the court's decision? pstudier 05:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Because Ben likes drama. lol --Woohookitty 10:58, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Supreme Decision

DUKE POWER CO. v. CAROLINA ENV. STUDY GROUP, 438 U.S. 59 (1978)

Here the opinion. Benjamin Gatti

Read - no surprises, except that the Tucker Act provides a further remedy even beyond Congress's backing. Simesa 07:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Is it just coincidental that Ben lives fairly near both the plants discussed in the opinion, McGuire and Catawba? Simesa 09:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I was 8 years old when this was decided. And I lived in california. I would suspect that I live outside the DMZ of either plant, so it's probably not very meaningful either way. All the same, I'd be happy to make the same argument again, I think the Supreme Court decision was biased by the speculative nature of the industry at the time. Benjamin Gatti

How the law works

There being no one paragraph in the Supreme Court decision to quote, how about this for "How the law works":

In the Act, power reactor licensees are required to have $300 million worth of primary insurance as of 2005. Also, each power reactor must pay up to $95.8 million in the event any of them has an accident. The pool of money — which as of 2004 stood at about $10 billion — is contributed by the nuclear industry. In the event that claims deplete the pool of funds, the Congress of the United States is required to consider covering the excess amounts, possibly by establishing additional assessments against the industry.

Price-Anderson covers DOE facilities and contractors such as the USEC uranium enrichment plants, national laboratories and the Yucca Mountain disposal site.

Nuclear insurance pools have paid $151 million ($70 million of which was related to the 1979 Three Mile Island meltdown) and the DOE $65 million since Price-Anderson was enacted.

Simesa 07:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Mediation

It appears that Ed Poor has quit Wikipedia (see his talk page). I recommend that we seek another mediator at RFM. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

There seemingly being no way to continue with Uncle Ed, I have applied for a new Mediator. We should all read wp:rfm. Simesa 00:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll be taking over the mediation. See below. Ral315 W_S 03:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, he will be missed - flaws and all. Benjamin Gatti

I didn't really quit: I was just having a bad day. In any case, there's a new Mediator on duty now. Anything I say from this point on is in my private capacity as an ordinary contributor. Uncle Ed 18:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

New mediator

I've stepped in for Ed Poor as mediator. I'd like to hear from each party specifically what you believe the problems are on this article. Please DO NOT respond to each other's comments; I'm just looking for your personal opinion on where the dispute is. We can worry about ground rules and other details after I get an opinion from all four of you as to exactly what you think are the problems here. Ral315 W_S 04:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Welcome! We're at sort of a stalemate and have been for awhile now. It's basically Simesa, katefan and I on one side and Ben on the other. Ben wants to make the article tilt towards the anti-nuclear crowd while generally, we think that the article is fine as it is even though it does need some background info still

. --Woohookitty 04:26, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

At this point, I would settle for a readable "How the law works" section. In the past, there has been insistence on stating how Chernobyl's consequences would have overwhelmed the resources - which is true, but should be balanced by a brief discussion by a few points that non-Soviet Union plants are very much unlike the RBMK-type reactor for that very reason. Simesa 13:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. - I will be unavailable until Sunday night, working at an event. Simesa 13:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, glad to have you here. We really have made pretty much no progress on substantive disagreements. I am going to re-post my initial thoughts from when mediation began:

I came here as a result of an RFC listed by Simesa asking for some NPOV eyes on Benjamin Gatti's edits (and his own, too, of course). I have no particular axe to grind or bone to pick except making sure the article is NPOV. My involvement has mainly been trying to help Benjamin understand NPOV and trying to help him properly insert the criticsm he thought was necessary, while attempting to rein in some of his anti-nuke POV. I anticipate that, similarly, my involvement in this mediation will come in the form of answering the things Benjamin thinks needs to be changed, although I will try to keep an open mind.

Primarily, the change he has sought that I have fought against most recently is that Benjamin thinks the GAO information on the historicity of the Price-Anderson Act (the "history" or "background" section, can't remember now what it's called) should not be stated authoritatively. That, rather, it should say "According to government documents," or "According to the GAO," which tends to cast doubt on the information in much the same fashion as with an interest group's opinion. My own feeling -- backed up by standard Wikipedia practices, I think -- is that the GAO is a nonpartisan, nonideological research organization and that its information is quite accurate. As such it's fine to use it as a source for factual information (as opposed to summaries of opinions) without attribution, as long as an in-line link is cited, which it is. The specifics of the information being summarized is factual on its base -- it isn't describing a debate or characterizing an opinion, it's simply the facts behind the creation of the Price-Anderson Act, which make Benjamin's objections even more confusing to me.

I also tend to feel that the criticsm section is a bit overstuffed as it stands now, though it would be fairly easy to consolidate when the bulk of the issues are resolved.

· Katefan0^(scribble) 14:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is very anti nuke POV. Some examples:

1. The law suspends U.S. liability laws for nuclear power plants. No, it defines a no fault liability.
2. ...taxpayers would have to foot most of the bill for a catastrophic accident Well, this is not different than with any other industry, such as when airplanes crash into skyscrapers.
3. ...injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident This is because the act uses strict liability. One does not have to prove fault, only injury. A less POV way of expressing this would be to say Nuclear plant owners are not allowed to defend themselves in court against charges of negligence.

pstudier 23:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

1. I think more accurately - it suspends state liability laws for a particular class of person - that is nuclear plant operators; quite unfair to "windfarm" operators, or PV operators, because it fails to provide "equal protection." I doubt there is such a thing as US liability laws. Federal court is not the best place for tort litigation.
2. the law would hold taxpayers liable before it held the reactors operator liable - even if criminal malfeasance or supreme neglact were proven - such is not the case with airline carriers.
3. Nuclear operators don't need to defend themselves, because they aren't liable beyond their insurance policy - the victom is.

I agree that the criticism section is bloated. The issue should not be framed as for and against, with for going first. It should be framed as fact following more important fact and the introduction should stipulate

Benjamin Gatti

Ground rules for mediation, and a few questions.

Now that I've got everybody's opinions, let's get to my own.

This seems like a relatively stable article right now, albeit disputed. Nevertheless, I think it's important to lay down a few ground rules right now:

1. One revert per day per person; any more reverts will result in a 24-hour block.
2. All edits should be discussed on the talk page; see below.
3. Try not to make any major changes without first discussing it on this page and getting my agreement.

On another, less authoritarian note, I made two minor changes: Changing AEC and DOE to proper links, rather than linking to their disambig pages, and making Energy Policy Act of 2005 a bullet point in the "See Also" section.

Some questions I personally had about the article, both major and minor:

• We all seem to agree that the "Criticisms" section is bad. It's very large, and in a lot of places, seems to be a hodgepodge of information, with absolutely no organization. Is there a way that we can agree to cut this section down, while still maintaining a Neutral Point of View? This may be the hardest part to do. Tell me, what can we cut?
• In the "how the law works" section, we use "ibid" to source a document. While I understand that "Ibid" means the previous source, a good number of people don't. Also, ibid says that it really deals with endnotes and footnotes primarily, not in-line sources. Should we link to the source again? Or perhaps just link it to ibid?
• Are all the HTML comments throughout the source necessary in the "Price-Anderson covers United States Department of Energy facilities." area? It seems to me like we should either have the information, or remove it completely.

I want everyone's opinion on these questions, and any other questions you may have...I'd really like to get this article in better shape. Ral315 W_S 07:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

____ I suggest that the graveman of this mediation has little to do with excessive reverts, failure to discuss, or even failure to vet changes with the mediator - the article as you suggest is stable, worts and all. Where we have disagreed in the past is whether or not the opinions expressed by certain government sources - include the GAO - were "facts" to be asserted by the voice of WP in the first person, or expressions of third parties, to appear in quotes with due attribution. As the chief critic amongst the warring tribes, it is worth noting that I don't care what is said under the heading "CRITICISM". The mere existence of a cordoned-off area for criticisms is offense. Moreover, the rules for criticisms have been different than the rules for supporters in that criticisms are diluted by attributions, while supporters have been permitted access to the first voice of WP. I'm no fan of in-line comments, but I think it's preferable when deleting material which is awkward, to leave it in place for a while so that one is not accused of deleting - only of hiding. Benjamin Gatti

I agree that I don't think that any of these are problems. I'm just setting them down as ground rules in general. Understand that my questions are mainly for discussion, to see exactly what people want, and more importantly, to figure out a place where all parties can agree, and the article is stable, NPOV, and most importantly, a good article. Ral315 W_S 22:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I think referencing the source again is preferable - editors don't always check for ibids.

I suggest we delete the hidden text and say simply "Price-Anderson also covers DOE facilities and contractors such as the USEC uranium enrichment plants, national laboratories and the Yucca Mountain disposal site."

I once tried to boil down the Criticims to the following:

The law is not without its detractors, including the libertarian thinktank CATO Institute, Greenpeace International, Public Citizen, Taxpayers for Common Sense and other interest groups, who charge that Price-Anderson has amounted to an enormous giveaway to private industry at the American taxpayers' expense. According to Public Citizen, a 1990 study calculated that without Price-Anderson, nuclear power corporations would pay more than $3 billion annually to fully insure their operations. [2] According to research done by the United States Public Interest Research Group, a consumer advocacy group, estimates of the subsidy to nuclear power plant owners range from $3.45 million to $33 million per reactor per year (in 2001 dollars). With 106 reactors covered, this would represent $366 million to $3.5 billion annually, USPIRG legislative director Anna Aurilio said.[3] Even the United States Department of Energy has said Price-Anderson is essentially a subsidy for the nuclear industry [4]. Public Citizen has been particularly critical of Price-Anderson, arguing that it understates the risks inherent in atomic power and does not require reactors to carry enough insurance — as a result taxpayers would have to foot most of the bill for a catastrophic accident, the group says.[5] Public Citizen has also criticized the act as having insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for victims' injuries and loss. [6]

Some of these groups also argue that the Price-Anderson Act was enacted when nuclear power was an immature industry that needed governmental protections to spur development, but that after 48 years such protections are no longer needed. In 1957, according to Public Citizen, the United States Senate stated that Price Anderson should only be needed for ten years because "the problem of reactor safety will be to a great extent solved and the insurance people will have had an experience on which to base a sound program of their own." [7][8]US Gov

However, the Energy Department has said it is "widely perceived that no new nuclear plants would be built in the United States without the cap on liability provided by the Price-Anderson Act." [9] (The last civilian nuclear plant completed in the United States started up in 1996 but new plants are proposed under the Nuclear Power 2010 Program and the Energy Policy Act of 2005.)

Additionally, Price-Anderson has drawn fire from these groups for a portion of the law that indemnifies Department of Energy private contractors from nuclear incidents even if there were gross negligence or willful misconduct. "No other government agency provides this level of taxpayer indemnification to non-government personnel," Public Citizen has said. [10] However, the Energy Department counters those critics by saying that the distinction is irrelevant, since the damage to the public would be the same - the goal of Price-Anderson is to provide coverage. [11]

As I recall, the above misses one point introduced after August 5th.

Simesa 22:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad Ral is here. I'd like to join the team - purely as a contributor, not as Mediator Emeritus or anything.

My problem with the article is it gives hardly the slightest clue about how anyone expects it work in practice. What is indemnified? Who pays money to whom, and how much? Is all negligence excused, even if it amounts to criminal mischief? Where does the act draw the line?

Also, I'd like lay out (or see laid out) the major arguments in favor of the act, and opposing the act. (I hear it's been signed already, so I guess there are grumblings about it or campaigns to repeal it, but usually these financial bills just go into effect upon presidential signature, don't they?)

Now to reveal my "position" on nuclear energy: I'm generally in favor of it, but I think extraordinary precautions should be taken to make it safe. I don't think Three Mile Island resulted in a significant amount of radiation leakage. What I've picked up about background radiation says to me me that the few millirems that went out of TMI just fade into the "background" in comparison.

Although I'm proud to be an American, I also doubt that the U.S. federal government is so trustworthy in all respects that it merits the endorsement of Wikipedia. Partisanship shows up in odd places, even in supposedly "nonpartisan" agencies. Case in point is global warming and the Kyoto Protocol. The EPA says one thing, the White House says another. Should Wikipedia endorse the agency or the president on this? Uncle Ed 19:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree in general, but agencies like the EPA are arms of the administration. The opinions they give are expected to jibe with the administration's opinion. The GAO, CRS, etc., are for the most part independent bodies, functioning as Congress' investigative/research arm. Agencies often toe the administration line because that's what they are -- appendages of the administration. Not so with entities such as the GAO and CRS, CBO etc. I'm not saying they are infallible, but when it comes to something like the historicity behind something like this, I think it's pretty safe to say their summation should be considered accurate. · Katefan0^(scribble) 20:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure that the GAO appreciates your endorsement. but an endorsement is an opinion, and just like mine, yours are not the proper stuff of encyclopedias. I suggest that we inform the reader of the source, and leave it to the reader to weight the credibility of sources. That would be black-belt NPOV. Now to Ed, welcome back in more ways than one. You realize that with extraordinary precautions, nuclear is more expensive, more dangerous, creates fewer jobs, and is less exportable than - for example - wind. Benjamin Gatti

What amazes me is that I've been involved in this since April and basically zilch has been decided. Not sure how many times we need to say that the GAO is a non-partisan group that has no stake in this or any other matters its involved in. The GAO comes out with FACTS, not opinion. This isn't a thinktank nor is it a partisan group. --Woohookitty 11:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

New intro

Cut from intro:

(commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability insurance obligations for nuclear plant operators. The act currently provides indemnity to all nuclear facilities (except Navy aircraft carriers and submarines) constructed in the United States before 2026. The Act is broadly viewed as a requirement for nuclear energy in the United States.

I decided that a very short quote from the NEI page didn't merit quotation marks; I just supplied a [1] style web link instead.

The rest of the verbiage seems confusing, and I think it's what we've all been contending about anyway, so I just text moved it here for discussion.

I would like to know more about how Price-Anderson imits liability insurance obligations.

I would like "indemnity" to be defined.

I'm not sure why we are mentioning the Navy. Are we trying to say the law applies only to civilian power plants?

"Broadly viewed" needs attribution. As the sailor said to the marine, Who are ya calling a broad? ;-) But seriously, which advocates regard the art as a requirement for nuclear energy in the United States, and why? Uncle Ed 14:32, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ed's new intro is much clearer than the previous. Yes, incidents involving military-operated reactors are NOT covered. Simesa 19:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's the beauty of accepting the Supreme Court's "findings of fact" - the Duke case found that nuclear plants (in particular the Duke plant) would not be built. The fact that it has recently been extended demonstrated that someone is arguing for it, and I believe Katefan submitted testimony from Cheney that is was critic today - also, taken with the new subsidies (50% of new building costs) - it remains clear that nuclear plants are a form of subsidy farming, and even with these subsidies, we do not see new plants popping up like mushrooms after a rain. As always, its tricky to say which subsidies are fungible (that is to say easily replaced by alternative incentives having the same avoided cost value, but liability subsidy is a slight-of-hand; it "costs" very little on a typical day, but "risk" is a major component in buying decisions for long-term capital investments. Any competative technology - with most or all of the risk removed, becomes advantageous. I have no problem with nuclear energy being the energy of choice - if it is truly the least cost option in a fairly costed world. My complaint and opinion, is that the costs of nuclear are being tortured in a manner which does not provide equal protection to persons seeking to compete in the energy market with alternatives which are more safe, and for this readon, less costly in a free market wherein each seller pays the true costs of production. Benjamin Gatti

Two clarifications: First, the construction subsidies are, for two reactors only, 50% of cost overruns due to delays and, for the next four reactors only, 25%. No delays, no such subsidies. "Subsidy farming" is a term once applied to wind power. As for "popping up", I am aware of five planned plants, of one or more reactors each. Simesa 00:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

But you admit that there are no 50% subsidies in place for cost overruns at - say Cape Wind. And you admit that Nuclear has recieved 97% of subsidies, so Wind can only claim to be subsidy gardening at best, (and with only 3% of the energy subsidy Wind is quite probably fully competative with nuclear (adjusted for the Price risk subsidy). And you don't deny the simple unfairness of granting "headstarts" to one form of energy - without providing equal time to clean safe alternatives. There hasn't been a new nuclear plant commissioned in this country since like the 1980's? I wouldn't call that popping up. In fact, even if they dent the golden shovels tomorrow morning, it would be another ten years before the first new nuclear kilowatt is pumped into the grid. Benjamin Gatti

I was thinking of the turbines at Altamont Pass, of which it has been said that their primary productivity was not electricity but rather tax write-offs - that was clearly a headstart. The last plant went on-line in 1996. New construction schedules are expected to be five years, the Japanese do it in a little under four. Simesa 02:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I heard the Russians can do it in three. Apparently there are some tradeoffs available in the scheduling, maybe the jury is still mulling the risk/benefit. Did you mean a headstart IN FRONT of nuclear - its chief competitor? Logic review: Nuclear gets 97% of government support, while Wind energy gets 3% and Simesa calls the race for Wind? I doubt that would fly in middle school debate class, I'm afraid that sermon only rings true with the choir. Fun aside - we agree that the Supreme court found the act was necessary, and that that should be authority enough? Benjamin Gatti 03:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

This just got complicated

Ed took the liberty to edit the intro - but I would like to adjust it - but then "we" are under some kind of comment first edit later protocol. So are we in this together? or is there going to be different rules for each party? I'll agree to this: So long as the article is being edited by the rules - I'll agree to discuss first - but if the article is being edited without pre-discussion, than I will not be held to a lesser standard. Benjamin Gatti

Yes, this is exactly the problem. I see that you have indeed gone ahead and modified it to something I find unacceptable. Now what? I'd rather not edit war. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:04, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

As much as I agree with Ed's changes - I think Pstudier has done the only practical thing to keep the train on the tracks. The agreement to take it slow is worth keeping, because without it, we will quickly be at each other's throats, RfC, RfM - oh that's where we are - then maybe we shouldn't make it worse.Benjamin Gatti

Vote to accept Ed's changes:

1. Accept:
   • pstudier 05:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
   • Simesa 07:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
2. Reject:
   • Uncle Ed 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
3. Comment:
4. Abstain: Benjamin Gatti 04:32, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Caution: "Wikipedia is not a democracy" - "Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes." (see Consensus) Simesa 17:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I've rejected my own changes, because unless all of us agree that the intro is correct and unbiased, I don't want it. I don't need the aggravation!

Seriously, a tense standoff, thrown together as "consensus" and supported by a shaky coalition of votes, is nothing but a house of cards.

I swung and missed. Next up to the plate is . . . ? Uncle Ed 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

With respect then to the Intro Paragraph - I suggest that we list the issues on which we disagree.

Facts I would assert:

1. The DOE has called Price a "Subsidy for investors"
2. The act exists because nuclear energy is "too" dangerous to insure.
3. Put another way, if nuclear had to pay the cost of insurance at the same rate as windpower, nuclear energy would be more expensive than alternatives - including wind.
4. The act limits the amount a victim can be compensated as a result of pain of lost loved one's, suffering, and real damages resulting from criminal negligence on the part of nuclear plant operators.
5. Nuclear power has recieved 97% of government energy subsidies.
6. Clean safe alternatives get fewer subsidies and must pay the full freight for their risk profiles (which while different, are no less significant and costly)

Over the months, each of these points has been supported by citations - which can be dug up if that's the issue. Benjamin Gatti

1. We treated that.
2. Nonsense, it's insured now, and the industry contribution alone is 140 times the claims at Three Mile Island.
3. That doesn't belong in this article.
4. With Congress's required action, it is open-ended - unlike car insurance coupled with a person's assets.
5. That belongs in Criticisms, if anywhere.
6. That belongs in Criticisms, if anywhere.

Is there anyone who can't live with the current intro?

Simesa 07:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

That would be me right - that's why we're here more or less?

• The DOE has called Price a "Subsidy for investors"

So why does the introduction suggest that opponents has said its a subsidy? - it ought to say the DOE and opponenents have said ...

1. The act exists because nuclear energy is "too" dangerous to insure.

"Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage." SCOTUS "Thus, while repeatedly stressing that the risk of a major nuclear accident was extremely remote, spokesmen for the private sector informed Congress that they would be forced to withdraw from the field if their liability were not limited by appropriate legislation." SCOTUS

1. Put another way, if nuclear had to pay the cost of insurance at the same rate as windpower, nuclear energy would be more expensive than alternatives - including wind.

• "It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial." SCOTUS

1. The act limits the amount a victim can be compensated as a result of pain of lost loved one's, suffering, and real damages resulting from criminal negligence on the part of nuclear plant operators.

• (d) The Act provides a reasonably just substitute for the commonlaw or state tort law remedies it replaces, - SCOTUS

1. Nuclear power has recieved 97% of government energy subsidies.

• If this is a fact - then it is not a criticism, real facts are neutral.

1. Clean safe alternatives get fewer subsidies and must pay the full freight for their risk profiles (which while different, are no less significant and costly)

• As often as this wiki asserts the various relative costs of reneables over trads, it must to be fair, assert the reverse where it is true. Benjamin Gatti

So then Ben, doesn't that make the GAO information neutral? Or are you arguing that what they come out with on this and others issues are not "real facts"? --Woohookitty 13:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes-likely. The line I propose, in the context of risk and liability, is that there is a difference between 1. what is. 2. what optimists believe the future holds, 3. what pessimists believe. 1 is simply neutral - negative facts are not "the facts according to critics."

I think we've gotten ahead of our Mediator. Simesa 14:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm also a little confused as to why anybody's suggesting rewriting the intro at all. It was my impression that the only person who had a problem with it was Benjamin. I would think it then falls on him to suggest what changes he seeks. · Katefan0^(scribble) 14:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

New Intro cont ...

He has. see history. ([12]). Benjamin Gatti

And with that version I object to leaving out all of the DOE facilities, and to the line ", which continue to be more dangerous than insurance companies are willing or able to insure at a price competative with cheaper, safer, and cleaner alternatives such as wind" - reactors aren't necessarily more dangerous (as shown by TMI), they're assumed to possibly be more dangerous, "are willing" has been repeatedly been shown to be wrong, "price" has nothing to do with it as plants are required to buy all that is available, and "competative (sic) with whatever" belongs in Criticisms. Simesa 04:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

In a free market, the price of risk is not determined by Simesa pecking comments into a BB, Risk associated costs are priced according to terms a competant party is willing to accept in a voluntary transaction. For all the obfuscation, we DO have an estimate of those prices. Nuclear plants are no longer required to buy all the available insurance, they get a special dispensation which in effect dramatically lowers their costs of production. They then "dump" their energy on the market which puts clean, safe, alternatives out of business. Benjamin Gatti

Ignoring the pointless personal attack and the incompetent economics lesson, we do have data for non-Soviet (i.e., crummy plants operated poorly with no containment buildings) meltdowns - $71 million. Nuclear plants are still required to purchase all the insurance available to them [13] [14]. Selling your power competitively is not dumping. Simesa 01:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

A personalized comment is not a personal attack, c'mon Sim, I just wrote an appeal brief which condemns's the state's position as McCarthian and beyond the lunar fringe of precedent - if there were to be a personal attack, it would be obvious. (NC wants to criminalize collecting litter)

• I accept your citation - nuclear plants may be required - however, you'll notice that only a single company offers nuclear insurance, and that's probably all it does - meaning it probably doesn't even have the assets to cover two claims simultaneously. The problem is that the market for insuring nuclear plants is artificially manipulated. Who wants to be in a business when the government is giving away the product for free?

This is a fun quote - the purpose of Price (According to the DOE is an investor subsidy - and the real purpose is to protect investors in the event of a crime.)

Selling power at prices which are less than the free market costs of production is predatory (under color of law even) when your competition is denied (equal protection) access to the same level of subsidies - I'd love to make that case, might buy a windmill, just to gain standing. Benjamin Gatti

I'm afraid

That we're getting right back into bickering. Mr. Mediator, what would you like for us to do? Uncle Ed had us try using a separate mediation page. Not alot of came of it, but I think it'd be more useful than just continually bickering here. I still think we should just go to arbcom and finish this, but that's just my opinion. --Woohookitty 04:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm just afraid that I'll be 45 years old and we'll still be discussing whether or not the GAO is an authoritative resource. It just never ends. --Woohookitty 04:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for not responding in a while...I've been watching what you've been suggesting with interest. To be perfectly frank, I don't think that ArbCom will take your case; ArbCom usually doesn't deal with content disputes, and you've all been very civil about the article. Ral315 W_S 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Since you came aboard, yes. :-D It's actually been more civil than it was initially. --Woohookitty 01:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Referencing the GAO?

Let's keep GAO comments in this section for clarity reasons. I'd like to pose a few questions that I have about this particular portion of the dispute.

• To the people who think that we should say "the GAO says", why? The GAO is "the non-partisan audit, evaluation, and investigative agency of the United States Congress." It's strictly a non-partisan outfit, isn't it?

• Cite everything or nothing at all. This is a contested issue, must of which revolves around speculation into possible future events, and anyone's opinion on future events must needs be taken with more than a grain of salt. Choosing one oracle to speak in the first voice, dismisses the other oracles to the lesser role of also ran. I believe this topic is one for which the policy is meant, and it should just be followed without departure. It is rude to interject policy arguments into a discussion of substance. Any argument on whether or not sources should be "couched" belongs in the appropriate wiki forum, and I object to continuing it here. Whooo is right, we need to move on with respect to that question, He is just wasting time anymore, it's a tired issue, two mediators have indicated the sources must be indentifyied in-line, and if it continues, then I suggest it is a form of interuption and vandalism suitable for the arbcomm to sanction. It certainly is consuming more time than Ed's five minute retirement of the RfD.;-) Benjamin Gatti 22:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

From wikipedia:cite_your_sources:

When you add content

For all of the above reasons, if you add information to an article which you gleaned from a specific external source, please cite where you got your information. If you can properly format your citation, that's great! If not, others can re-format it for you, as long as you provide all the information necessary to find the original source.

In general, even if you are writing from memory, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite. (If you are writing from your own knowledge, then you should know enough to identify good references that the reader can consult on the subject—you will not be around forever to answer questions.) The main point is to help the reader and other editors, which is why you should try to go beyond those sources you happened to use yourself.

The need for citations is especially important when writing about the opinions held on a particular issue. Avoid weasel phrases such as, "Some people say ..." Instead, find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to some place where they can be seen or heard expressing that opinion.

Just because a statement is referenced does not mean that it is appropriate or conveys an accurate impression. As implicitly described in the official NPOV policy, even if a citation is from a reputable source, it should provide the reader the gist of the research on a certain subject and not merely carefully selected or out-of-context quotes to support a certain point of view.

Remember that Wikipedia is not for your opinions or for original research.

au·thor·i·ta·tive

• Having or arising from authority; official: an authoritative decree; authoritative sources.
• Of acknowledged accuracy or excellence; highly reliable: an authoritative account of the revolution.
• Wielding authority; commanding: the captain's authoritative manner.

non·par·ti·san

• Based on, influenced by, affiliated with, or supporting the interests or policies of no single political party: a nonpartisan commission; nonpartisan opinions.

By the above, I submit that the GAO is an acceptable, non-partisan source.

Simesa 01:54, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

While I object to the pasting because it is rude - a link would suffice - I don't disagree, and it doesn't matter. The Union of Concerned Scientists is not based on, influenced by, or otherwise affiliated with a single political party. I suggest that both the Green party and the Democractic party would be comfortable with their positions. Other parties may be affiliated with crooks, I don't think a sourc has to please everyone to be non-partisan. All of which changes nothing. I never suggested the GOA was an improper source. I would suggest that mind-reading is an improper assertion for anyone, and the Wiki should refrain from engaging is the astrological arts. If the GAO feels that it can devine the intent of Congress, less it tarnish its own name, why should we lend the reputation of the Wikipedia to idle speculations? Bad enough we have to report on them (see hubris peak) Benjamin Gatti

• To the people who think we should leave the GAO out, why? It's generally Wikipedia style to cite all sources, isn't it? Even if they're non-partisan audit agencies, shouldn't they still be cited?]

I want you to tell me why. Don't argue, don't bicker, don't fight. Just try to convince me why we should or should not cite the GAO.

I don't mean to start a fight, but could you get my name right, Ben? Hell, call me Mike if you want to. I don't care. But it's a little rude to keep mussing up my name. And you've been doing it despite repeated warnings. I know you type fast, but try to get my name right. Thanks.

Anyway, I don't mean to speak for Ben, but essentially, he sees the GAO as being on equal footing as his sources. He doesn't believe that they should be used in the authoritative voice because what they say is opinion and not fact. And he basically sees the GAO as pro-government because it's a government agency and in this case, the government's case would be to keep Price-Anderson. If I'm wrong Ben, say so. My argument that the GAO is non-partisan and has no vested interest in any of this. They are generally used in the authoritative voice on Wikipedia and that should be the case here. But Ben doesn't see it that way and I'm pretty certain he's not going to budge off of that position. And I don't see us budging.

As for arbcom, honestly, we've moved about an inch since I got into this back in June. The same issues then are the same issues we have now. Ben wants the criticism section even bigger...he wants it integrated into the rest of the article...he wants the GAO to be treated as an opinion source just like his sources are. Meanwhile, we think that the criticism section is already too big (but we don't want to shorten it) and that any other anti-price anderson information put in will essentially make the article biased towards anti-nuke people. Ii other words, we did alot of moving early on, but at this point, we're not willing to move any further towards making this anti-nuke. And actually, simesa, katefan0 and I aren't even pro-nuclear power! We just feel as though this article needs to be NPOV and that letting in the kind of language Ben wants in would just tilt it. here is a version Ben tried to put in a few weeks ago when he unilaterally declared mediation "over". So it's not like this is ancient history. I know arbcom doesn't usually take content disputes, but honestly, I just don't see the sides moving here. We go round and round and round and round and nothing changes. The kicker is that, generally, Simesa, Kate and I are happy with the article as it is. We feel like we need to add more on the background of the law and all of that, but if this article wasn't altered, we wouldn't be dissatisfied.

I know this is long, but the main point is that we're ok with things as they are and Ben wants to keep tilting the article towards anti-nuke. That's essentially the issue with GAO and everything else. --Woohookitty 04:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Mike, about the name - may I politely decline the offer to take your absurdonym seriously. You've played the namegame by your own choice, perhaps you shouldn't be offended when others join the fun.

As to budging off of my insistance that every voice be treated equally, it sure doesn't help to have mediator(s) agree with me. Perhaps Mike is shopping for opinions and is hoping one of the four in arbcomm will validate his position. Good luck. I'm not holding you back. Serve the papers - but I warn you, I and others believe you would be wasting their time. Benjamin Gatti

I'm not anti-nuke; I am anti 97% of subsidies being funnelled into a nonrenewable energy source, which is dangerous, when we have cheaper alternatives which are largely unexplored (wind, waves, solar). I do believe with similar levels of funding, wind and wave energy would both be competitive. But mosly, Price is an admission that nuclear is dangerous, and I do intent to have the Supreme Court's expression of that simple fact blazened across the front of this article. (BTW, a very non-partisan, independant group). Do you agree to give the Supreme court the authoritative voice? ie "Despite years of improvements, the possibility of a nuclear accident still exists - therefore PI is (still) required to subsidize a gaggle of 6 figure Ph.D's"? Benjamin Gatti

Sorry, I never responded to the question. Yes, I believe that the GAO is an authoritative source. Frankly, if they aren't authoritative, no one is. Ben, no personal attacks. I am not playing the game with you anymore. Stick to the issues. --Woohookitty 04:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

And, despite prodding several times, Ben has yet to come up with another case on Wikipedia where the GAO is not treated as authoritative. --Woohookitty 04:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

First, this (and Hubris Peak) are both speculative subjects. The GAO report on matters of fact may be uncontested and not require further couching. I this case, the GAO - if I remember - is being used to list the motives of Congresspersons. Well, anyone who claims to know what motivates congress needs couching regardless of the source. I would suggest that there are no "sources" beyond reproach, but there are "assertions" which are so universally accepted as to merit the unquestioned voice. The "motives" of politicians is not even within the lunar fringe of universal acceptance - just let it go. You have yet to find anyone who agrees with you on this, you've had more than 6 months and two mediations to make this point, and you've yet to convince anyone. Sheesh? Benjamin Gatti

And you didn't answer me. Where are the other places in Wikipedia where the GAO is not used as an authoritative source? I want an answer on that. You always avoid it. You have the burden of proof here, not us.--Woohookitty 05:35, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

To answer ye yet again, it depends on the assertion. If the GOA is asserting tax revenue for 2004, and no one contests the assertion, the the authoritative voice is appropriate; however, when it claims to read minds - by suggesting the "intent" of the legislature, that is a different matter. So I'll turn the question and invite you to "prove the negative". Show where the GAO is referenced with respect to "mind reading" elsewhere in the wk, but I must warn you, that it wouldn't matter to me if they were. What matters is whether there is a non-trivial objection to the use of the authoritative voice. As there is here, usual couching applies. For one thing, assertions must be "VERIFYABLE" which means it is possible by some means to determine the truth of the assertion. Consequentially, the assertion "Congress intended ..." is unveryfiable on its face. "The GAO reports that Congress intended ..." or "The SCOTUS found that Congress intended ..." are both perfectly verifyable statements. Those three words aren't going to melt the servers. Benjamin Gatti

As a technical matter, Congress is incapable of owning a "motivation", it is a body which acts in accordance with the majority of its members, as such, it is limited to "Acts of Congress". Individuals may have motives, concerns, and an array of human emotions. They may also be motivated individually by the promise of campaign financial support, or as in the case of DeLay, by large and obsequious donations to his legal defense fund (routed through swiss banks if necessary of course). But "Congress" would have to vote in order to hold a motive, and consequently, it is bizarre to lay claim to knowledge about what truly motivated Congress. It is clear by the record that they were made aware of the threatened pullout of private participation in nuclear power. It is far less clear that there was any public or private outcry of concern over who would pay for a nuclear accident, and in any case Price doesn't really address or change the source of funds. The government had the ultimate responsability before, and after, to deal with such an affair, thus the "claim" of concern for "protecting the public" amounts clearly to window dressing a subsidy for public consumption, and I suggest the Wikipedia can do better than playing sychophant to congress. Speaking of sychophant - have you read Harriet Miers flattery of the CIC? I could cry, it was so touching. Benjamin Gatti

Actually, given that the matter is not settled, and there is no clear answer, all of you have the burden of proof. But I do agree with Woohookitty on the Personal Attacks...final warning for everyone. Any more personal attacks will result in a block, no questions asked. Try to remember that this can be worked out amicably. Ral315 W_S 07:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, as you've said we're a civil group; heated, informed, diverse, and opinionated, but "mostly harmless." One has been sensative about the spelling of one's screen "interjection"; I find that some screen names are intended to inspire levity, and consequently, the assertion that the failure of others to observe one's arbitrary collection of purient syllables with funereal decorum amounts to a personal attack to be specious. Benjamin Gatti

I'd take that as a personal attack on me, Ral. It has abolutely nothing to do with the case at hand. It's just an attempt to make fun of me and he's done that twice in the last 12 hours. --Woohookitty 13:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I would take the specious claim of a personal attack where none exists to be character asassination, but I'm not complaining about it. Benjamin Gatti

How is making fun of someone else's username not a personal attack? If I started calling you Bennnnnny (which I won't), I don't think you'd like it. What my name is on here is completely immaterial. It was just a cheap shot, which is a personal attack. --Woohookitty 14:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Deal - I'll call you Mike, and we focus on substance. Benjamin Gatti

Works for me. --Woohookitty 02:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Intro

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) protects investors in nuclear power plants from liability, even for criminal neglect, for the death and destruction caused by nuclear incidents such as Chernobyl. The act currently provides indemnity to all nuclear facilities (except Navy aircraft carriers and submarines) constructed in the United States before 2026. The Act as been recognized by the United States Supreme Court as a requirement for the private generation of nuclear energy in the United States. In addition, the Supreme Court found [15] that the risk of a major nuclear accident has not been eliminated by 40 years of research and testing. Environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as well as the Department of Energy have described the act as a transfer of wealth from those who earn it (taxpayers) to those who own it (investors). Benjamin Gatti

I'd say you are trying to cram your entire POV, unbalanced, into the first paragraph. I strongly prefer the current Intro over the above. "Private generation" isn't all the Act is necessary for. Criminal neglect is still speculative (it wasn't, for example, a factor at TMI), and if "wholesale irradiation" were possible in U.S. plants the NRC wouldn't have mandated only a 10 mile Emergency Planning Zone. One agency (the EIA) of the DOE described it as a subsidy - but there has been no "transfer of wealth" as the government has never paid a dime for commercial plants' incidents, and it's very unlikely it will ever have to. Simesa 20:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• according to the Supreme court, private participation was the thrust of the act. If you are unwilling to accept the Supreme Court's conclusions, then I think you bear the burden of proof. "Criminal Neglect" is not speculative. we had cite after cite which shows the act does not allow companies to be sued for the damages arising as a consequence of knowing and intentional violations of law. The transfer of wealth has already occured. "Wealth" includes "avoided costs". The cost of insuring nuclear plants has been avoided by transfering it from those who invest in nuclear energy and to those who invest in safe clean alternatives. Thus, the investments (ie Wealth) which would, in a fairer market, have been available to safe clean energy, were "transfered" to unsafe, dirty nuclear plants. That is a transfer, the taxpayer is the victim along with those who have invested time, effort or money into safe clean energy. Benjamin Gatti

The burden of proof is easy, read the first line of the Supreme Court's decision: "The Price-Anderson Act (Act), having the dual purpose of protecting the public [including from incidents at DOE facilities] and encouraging the development of the nuclear energy industry..." (my text in brackets). If we were to list one thing that the Act would cover, then we should list all the incidents it would cover: a very long laundry list. I disagree with your somewhat twisted reasoning - no costs have been added to anyone, no other energy producer has paid anything for Price-Anderson. Market fairness is a subsidiary issue to be dealt with in Criticisms. "Unsafe" is stil your POV not borne out by the IPE examinations, "dirty" is relative (ever worked around coal?). And are you really claiming that wealth was transferred away from you specifically? So now you believe you do have a fiduciary interest in this? Simesa 02:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

SCOTUS: The Price-Anderson Act (Act), having the dual purpose of protecting the public and encouraging the development of the nuclear energy industry, imposes a $560 million limitation on liability for nuclear accidents resulting from the operation of federally licensed private nuclear power plants, requires those indemnified by the $560 million fund established under the Act to waive all legal defenses in the event of a substantial nuclear accident, and further provides that in the event of a nuclear accident involving damages in excess of the amount of aggregate liability Congress "will take whatever action is deemed necessary and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences of a disaster of such magnitude."

It's a long sentence, but the best minds in the country couldn't be complete with less (trust me, they tried). I believe it would be premature for me - at this point to claim personal fiduciary interest. In fairness, I have invented and patented an alternative to nuclear energy, however, there is no substantial interest in the idea, therefore the value, even in a nuclear-free world is speculative at best. Full disclosure doesn't poisen the well. Nuclear energy also lowers the cost of energy (at significant risk to those who live close to the plant, route, and storage sites) - which I pay, thus the savings from nuclear in simple dollars and cents outweight the personal financial benefit of an unlikely alternative. Moreover nuclear energy cannot be used to stabilize developing countries, and it cannot be easily exported, so it imposes a significant cost on global standards of living. Provided reactor operator don't cut corners, lie steal and cheat like an energy company, and there is not major accident, it possible that a nuclear scenario could cost me less than a non-nuclear scenario, its also possible that it would not. I believe the choice should be up to the market, and I object to not having the freedom of choice. Benjamin Gatti

Private Participation

Within a decade, however, Congress concluded that the national interest would be best served if the Government encouraged the private sector to become involved in the development of atomic energy for peaceful purposes under a program of federal regulation and licensing. See H. R. Rep. No. 2181, 83d Cong., 2d Sess., 1-11 (1954). The Atomic Energy Act of 1954, Act of Aug. 30, 1954, ch. 1073, 68 Stat. 919, as amended, 42 U.S.C. 2011-2281 (1970 ed. and Supp. V), implemented this policy decision, providing for licensing of private construction, ownership, and operation of commercial nuclear power reactors for energy production under strict supervision by the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). 1 See Power Reactor Development Co. v. Electrical Workers, 367 U.S. 396 (1961), rev'g and remanding 108 U.S. App. D.C. 97, 280 F.2d 645 (1960). SCOTUS

Private industry responded to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 with the development of an experimental power plant constructed under the auspices of a consortium of interested companies. It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. See Green, Nuclear Power: [438 U.S. 59, 64] Risk, Liability, and Indemnity, 71 Mich. L. Rev. 479-481 (1973) (Green). SCOTUS

Benjamin Gatti?

(This is a reply to Simesa - I see an awful lot here focussed exclusively on Private Industry) Benjamin Gatti

A lot of verbiage, desperately trying to regain the point, but it doesn't change that key first sentence. DOE incidents are covered. Simesa 09:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

And the nonsequitar award goes to ... The first sentence says nothing about DOE incidentse. Yes, given, DOE facilities are included. But there is no verbiage from the Supreme court to suggest that "insuring" the DOE was the prime purpose, the effect, or the problem presented to Congress as a precedent to the passage of the Act, and they have cited many contemporary reports in support of that position. I believe it's clear from the record that Price was invisioned and intended to provide a bridge of insurance to cover the experiential period after which insurance companies ought to have collected enough information and experience to calculate the risks of nuclear energy in the private sector. The fact is that period has passed, and includes Chernobly and private insurers are no closer to fully insuring nuclear energy than they were in 1954. Benjamin Gatti

"The Price-Anderson Act (Act), having the dual purpose of protecting the public and encouraging the development of the nuclear energy industry," clearly has a prime purpose of covering DOE-related incidents.

The unrelated point is also wrong - with only one applicable accident (TMI) in the world to examine, and that with negligible impact, the experiential period goes on.

Simesa 09:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a little structure please?

I really must object. This article is being modified all over the place without any kind of prior consensus or even raw discussion. I'm starting to get very frustrated with the way this is going, or not going. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Really Kate, I would suggest this is one of the more static pages on the wikipedia. I suggest it is not changing enough to keep the editors interested. I suggest we lift the no-edit ban entirely and let the wiki process run its course. One problem is that there is very slow participation on the consensus side. Simesa and I are trading substance, others, well, not so much. May I say as an aside - what a great time to be a Washington reporter. If I were you, and I say this with great appreciation and respect for your participation here, I think I would let this slip a bit and focus on the new and compelling issues boiling over in DC. What a ride! Benjamin Gatti

Those are some novel comments, but they don't change my request above. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Then I wish you well of your quest. Seriously - you must be reporting on what's happening in Washington, is it to much to ask where you publish? Benjamin Gatti

Yes. Ral? · Katefan0^(scribble) 05:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, this is just another attempt by Ben to declare mediation over. He tried that about a month ago. Look at alot of archive 5 for what I am talking about. We need some sort of conclusion here and him just backing out of this isn't it. --Woohookitty 06:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Deal. Mediation shall continue so long as the mediator and every party to mediation participates at least once every second day. Once mediation lapses, it must be renegotiated. The perpetual censorship of drag-one's-feet mediation is unacceptable. Anyone who objects to these conditions can take it up with arbcom or use their majik powers to block me, but I will not voluntarily be silent unless we are making an attempt at progress. Benjamin Gatti

This ultimatum is obviously not okay. We're in mediation specifically because we need a mediator in order to help us make progress. As long as we don't have someone taking an active hand, we're going to go nowhere fast. · Katefan0^(scribble) 03:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Mediation is voluntary. I most certainly can assert the conditions under which I voluntarily agree to participate. My conditions are reasonable. It's been forever. It's time, i suggest to move on - however, i'll agree to a few more days of serious effort, if there is a coalition of interested parties, otherwise, I intend to use the Supreme court's conclusions to assert that nuclear energy is dangerous and this is why, in 2005, Bush signed the no-fault taxpayer insurance for Republican investors. Benjamin Gatti

Benjamin, you're happy to do what you want. But I'd like to continue mediation. I am active, for what it's worth; now that I have a handle on this issue, I'm going to be a lot more active in the matter. Ral315 (talk) 07:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Ral. How do we proceed from here? · Katefan0^(scribble) 15:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

If Ben backs out, I'm putting this up for arby. I know they generally don't take content disputes, but I don't think we can let Ben get all he wants by just not being in the process. --Woohookitty 07:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, I have not backed out. I am merely stating that I intend to interpret lack of participation as conclusory. If Mike wants to go to Arb, I intend to show good faith by participating in mediation, but I do not believe that mediation should amount to self-cencorship for 12 months. Benjamin Gatti

Self-censorship? Anyway. Yes Ral, how do you want us to go from here? --Woohookitty 16:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

My revert tonight

I reverted back to the consensus version of October 15th. Let's come up with a consensus and THEN change the article. Not sure why this is proving hard for people. --Woohookitty 06:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I applaud each of Uncle Ed's attempts, but agree with Woohookitty that we will have to do this the long way. And I agree with Katefan0 that ending Mediation precipitously would simply result in edit-warring.

I don't see either side budging on the Intro. I suggest we move on to "How the law works", which both sides agree is incomprehensible. Simesa 09:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

basks in the applause Uncle Ed 02:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a little substance please?- Is Nuclear Dangerous or not?

The Supreme court has indicated that the risk of a nuclear accident is the driving cause of Price Anderson. Our readers deserve to have this information. Simesa has argued that nuclear is not dangerous and that there is no risk, however, this argument has been to the Supreme Court and failed. There is a rule at law which says a party cannot argue both sides of the same issue when it suits their fancy. In that sense, the Nuclear Industry has lost the right to argue that nuclear is safe, when they went to the Supreme Court and argued that it is so dangerous that they deserve to have a special Constitution just for them. Accordingly, it is inappropriate for us to publish that which is inconsistent with facts which the industry has used to argue in favor of its narcotic subsidies.

Now then who can provide a non-trivial objection to the assertion that (according to the Industry in their case to the Supreme Court) nuclear IS dangerous, in spite of efforts to make it safe, and that Price Anderson is a continuing tribute to the inherent risks thereof? Benjamin Gatti

When did Simesa say that there was no risk in nuclear power? I don't remember that. I do remember you insisting for the longest time that he was a paid mouthpiece for the nuclear industry because he worked for the nuclear industry over a decade ago and then become a whistleblower. But I don't you remember him saying there was no risk in nuclear power. Besides, I think the possible danger of nuclear power belongs in the nuclear power article. Besides, if you read this article in full, you can gather that nuclear power is dangerous. I'm not sure we have to yell it from the mountaintop here. This section basically hints its dangerous.

"Although the AEC offered incentives to encourage investment, there remained in the path of the private nuclear power industry various problems - the risk of potentially vast liability in the event of a nuclear accident of a sizable magnitude being the major obstacle.Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage."

In addition, the tone of the article is that this is essentially a handout to the nuclear industry so their asses are covered in case the inevitable accident will occur.

And then we have the issue that Simesa, kate and I have been solid on for awhile. This article's tone is anti-nuclear. We have a criticisms section that takes up more of the article than any other section. We do not have a section with reasons for the act. We have essentially a paragraph and then it's mixed in the first few paragraphs of the article. In other words, we have an article heavy on criticism already. If we make it any more critical, it's going to be basically an essay on how evil Price-Anderson is. --Woohookitty 13:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

We're not here to critique the SC decision. From what I read of it, they don't call the industry dangerous. So it shouldn't be here. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This sounds like a promising avenue to go down. It looks like Price-Anderson came about because of the perception that nuclear power is dangerous.

As a student of physics (one year high school, one year college) I think there is something to this perception. A chunk of uranium the size of a grapefruit can destroy an entire metropolis: think New York City, not just Manhattan. And Chernobyl proved what can happen if you don't take elementary precautions (since when did the Soviets really care about not killing innocent people?!).

A lot of activists have claimed the US nuclear power can not be made safe, and that therefore it should be abolished. I believe this claim was connected ideologically with the "no nukes" movement which sought unilateral disarmament by the US during the Cold War, in the hopes that the USSR would gain a decisive advantage. I met organizers of the Clamshell Alliance in Boston and talked to various related others - this is not just me talking out of my hat here.

Then there are the opponents of US energy use in general, such as the environmental movement (which in turn connects to the Kyoto Protocol and global warming).

The whole thing is a tangled mess. It's no wonder that we haven't been able to resolve anything. There is too much under the surface (see elephant in the living room). Uncle Ed 17:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I certainly agree with that, and would go a step farther to say that some of the problem is that there is too much "truth-seeking" going on and not enough attention paid to just summarizing disputes. · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hard to argue with that point. Let's not forget that we entered mediation because some wanted to summarize the views of theose who believe nuclear is dangerous - including the SCOTUS, while using the authoritarian voice to represent the other side - including the assertions of the GOA regarding the motivations of Congress. So if there is going to be an argument for focus, I would suggest focussing on that question.

To Ed. Sure, its a tangled mess. I think more accurately, this, like Hubris peak and Evolution for that, is a subject which is scientific in its fundamentals, and yet so speculative as to preclude a scientific conclusion in our time. Kate has a point which is that we should summarize arguments. Really it's a point I have been making since forever. Assertions should be verifiable summarizations of identifyable sources. iE, "The SCOTUS held (here) that nuclear is more dangerous than all the insurance companies in the world combined could afford to insure." Benjamin Gatti

Wow. progress. I might have to give everyone a cookie for that. ;-) --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 03:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What I get from the SCOTUS decision is "The potential consequences of a worst-case nuclear accident are unknown, so that private insurance companies are unable to cover all of them." The word "danger" (as "dangerous") is used only once, in repeating a claim - SCOTUS never used it. The exact SCOTUS decision is:

We disagree. We view the congressional assurance of a $560 million fund for recovery, accompanied by an express statutory commitment, to "take whatever action is deemed necessary [438 U.S. 59, 91] and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences of" a nuclear accident, 42 U.S.C. 2210 (e) (1970 ed., Supp. V), to be a fair and reasonable substitute for the uncertain recovery of damages of this magnitude from a utility or component manufacturer, whose resources might well be exhausted at an early stage."

The closest SCOTUS comes to Ben's wording is:

Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage. Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur, but the very uniqueness of nuclear power meant that the possibility remained, and the potential liability dwarfed the ability of the industry and private insurance companies to absorb the risk.

My wording is significantly different from Ben's, but more accurate and closer to the SCOTUS decision.

Simesa 09:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

So Ben, how does that equal "The Supreme Court said that nuclear power is dangerous"? --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 12:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems that both sides can find comfort and support in the SCOTUS opinion. What the SCOTUS are saying in their own special "greenspeak" is that the risk is enormous, the danger exists, the damage potential dwarfs private insurance companies (globally combined even) - but more importantly, it indicates and stresses that the purpose of Price is to "Subsidize the danger." - Which is discussed in far more column inches than is the politicaly correct nonesense "Protect the Public" - which in any case is a farce. In what way are the public "Protected" by encouraging power companies to install nuclear bomb on every street corner? Price does not "Increase" the public safety one iota. In truth is deccreases the public safety, but because it is a weapon technology, it decreases the safety of our enemies EVEN MORE. That is the definition of an arms race. Both sides in a race to the bottom. Benjamin Gatti

Shortened criticisms

Now the Act is tilted in favor of nuclear because the criticism section is the shortest. Balance is happily restored. Anyway the important criticism is the fact that victims of criminal action (can you say Enron) by nuclear power companies (like Enron) are not afforded the protections of state and federal (equity) laws.

In this country, a thief who injures himself robbing a bank has more protection than a three year old child exposed to a lifetime of cancers, deformities, and the threat of bearing horribly mutated children against the criminal negliegence of an energy CEO who sacrifices safety to pump up his 100 million dollar year-end bonus. Benjamin Gatti

I mean this in the kindest possible way, but how can anybody take your edits seriously when you add things like this with absolutely no acknowledgement that it is a clearly disputed statement of opinion? The absence of liability protections effectively encourages investors to take short-cuts on safety issues You know how NPOV policies work. So why do this? · Katefan0^(scribble) 01:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Because he thinks he can slip one by us. Or he just doesn't care. From what he's said in the past, I'd take option B. He's acknowledged that he doesn't care what the other articles on Wikipedia say. He doesn't care how they are structured. He doesn't really care much about how neutral the article is. Again, these aren't attacks. I'm taking this from admissions he's dropped in from time to time during this entire process. And he keeps changing strategies. He's cooperative and then he's beligerent and then he's apologetic and then he's back to putting in whatever he wants. He makes edits without consensus. Threatens to back out of mediation whenever things are turning against his way. In the past, he's tried to game the system by quoting the NPOV policy but then leaving out important points. Again, none of these are personal attacks. It's in the record. To say it's difficult to make heads or tails of his intentions is an understatement. Ben, I kind of wish you'd just be consistent here. If you want to be beligerant and put in whatever you want, fine, but then don't act like you want to cooperate and then go right back to being beligerant. The thing is. We're assuming good faith. We have been since the start. It's just impossible to follow someone who continually reinvents his strategy and keeps altering behavior from one moment to the next. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

There is also the distinct possibility that (he) simply believes it to be so, finds the position to be well supported in the body of evidence, and proposes that the final opinion include the assertion. This isn't really an emotional issue, I doubt that caring or not caring is highly correlated with the results. I'm certainly not persuaded by consensus in the absence of demonstrated expertise, in the face of empirical evidence such as chernobly, and given factual finding by the SCOTUS, as well as the recent reaffirmation off the necessity of Price, the argument, that nuclear is "safe" is perfectly specious. Benjamin Gatti

Ben, even among those exposed to Chernobyl's massive fallout, "there is little evidence of increased mortality, cancers or birth defects among them; and when such evidence is present, existence of a causal link to radioactive contamination is uncertain." If by chance there was an accident and a containment leak and someone didn't get evacuated and was as a result exposed, there's a huge fund for their treatment, Congressional backing, and according to the SC the Tucker Act behind that. U.S. utility managers are highly motivated not to sacrifice safety, for several reasons, and you never did produce any cites about such doings at Entergy, the second-biggest owner of nuclear units (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched). Median utility CEO total compensation in 2003, including bonus and long-term incentives, was under $4 million [16]. The facts just don't support your rhetoric. Simesa 03:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Fact. Millions in those regions who were pregnant were encouraged to abort for fear of mutilations. That is prima facia evidence of a profound threat and substantial damages.

Fact: (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched).

Fact: Nuclear energy companies openly discourage public disclosure of safety violations by - among other things beating witnesses within an inch of their life.

Fact: A Burglar can sue his/her victim for negligence, but the innocent victim of a criminal nuclear incident is denied access to the liability protections of our "unjustice" system. Benjamin Gatti

Is there any non-trivial objection to citing the Supreme Courts position that all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't insure the nuclear industry from even a single nuclear accident? Benjamin Gatti

Is there any non-trivial objection to making Ben stick to the point and not continually go off on tangents? This article is NOT about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. It's about a law that was passed over 50 years ago, what that law says, how the process it sets works, what the criticisms are of it, etc, etc. It's not about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. We have an entire article on nuclear power. That's where stuff like your facts belong. This is about the Price-Anderson law. Period. So quit making it something it's not please. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Reverts

Ral, I'm not trying to do your job for ya, but I just reverted to the last consensus version. Again, I thought the whole point of mediation was to decide on a consensus version and *then* change the article to fit the consensus version. Ral, should we protect the article again? Frankly, I'm going to keep reverting back to the consensus version until we come up with a new consensus version. I thought that was the point of mediation. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, if we protect every article on the wiki which experiences an excess of 1 revert per week, we could rename the site CNN. No one yet has violated the 3RR rule, or even the 1RR "rule". Mike is demonstrating the lost art of overreaction. Kudo's M. Benjamin Gatti

No. See Ben, the point of mediation is to come up with consensus versions, i.e. versions that everyone is happy with. It is not to keep making changes when you feel like it. If that was the rule, we wouldn't have mediation since the whole point is to give and take so we can come to a consensus.

What's annoying me is that it took me about 6 attempts to get this back reverted to the October 24th version. It's done now. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The point of this mediation (as it appears on the record) was to determine whether or not the wiki itself should presume infalible knowledge of Congress' "intentions" given an assertion of same by the GAO. Care to resolve the point Ral? The rest is just Kabisting while we wait for the jury to come back with the verdict. Benjamin Gatti

Um no. The point of this mediation was to come up with a version of this article that we can all be happy about. I really wish you'd quit trying to change the rules of the mediation. It's quite annoying. It's gaming the system. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Protected for now. I'll discuss it in a new section in a few minutes. Ral315 (talk) 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Protected.

Some stats to consider (commenting on size, not substance)

Introduction: 77 words

A pretty good length, I think. Ral315 (talk)

Background: 367 words

It could be longer, but doesn't need to be if it explains the act fully. Ral315 (talk)

How the law works: 178 words

Good length. Ral315 (talk)

Criticisms: 553 words

Obviously, this is a problem for many (all?) of you. If we could boil this down to about 300 words, that would be great. Ral315 (talk)

I've set up a temp page for editing: Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Temp. As this is a page invisible to the public, feel free to make sweeping changes. But note that the ONE-REVERT RULE is still in effect there. The main article will be unprotected when I feel that we've hit a consensus, or everyone involved wants it unprotected. Ral315 (talk) 05:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Another note...refer to your edits here with the "permanent link" from the toolbar so that we can all see your particular revision. Thanks :) Ral315 (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the 2nd go at trying it this way. Or is it the 3rd? :) But let's hope it's successful or else I'm going to run out of WikiAdvil. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Were you counting my recent version wherein the criiticism section was shortened? The criticism section is not long because of the "critics" it has been bloated by those trying to bury the ugliest truths in a mound of platitudes. Benjamin Gatti

I think it's an important part of Wiki policy that protected pages get listed in that section for protected pages - it tends to bring in additional points of view which may be valuable in resolving the issue. Benjamin Gatti

Amazing. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Remember: You need to back up major changes with reasoning. Ral315 (talk) 14:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

How the law works

Okay, I made a first proposed change. Simesa 11:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Calling Spade

Price - removes "Public Protections" by suspending laws truly intended to protect the public from dangerous activities of others. Benjamin Gatti

Criminal law still applies, and in the words of SCOTUS "in the event of a nuclear accident the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages." Simesa 14:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Price - removes "Public Protections" by suspending laws truly intended to protect the public from irrational investment in dangerous activities.

The people who suffered the most from Chernobly was not kiev, ukraine, or their energy company - it wa in fact the people of Belarus which happened to live to the north and recieved no benefit from the plant during its operation. Benjamin Gatti

By now you know enough to know the Chernobyl RBMKs were a special case, unlike any civilian U.S. power plant which (1) don't have graphite in their cores and (2) have real containment buildings (I can't speak for the DOE's weapons-production reactors, but they've all been shut down anyway). And both Canada and Mexico have their own nuclear p[lants. Simesa 07:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Objection to Censorship

"Protecting" a page on account of 1 to 2 edits a week amounts to censorship. Regardless of the subject or any other thing - it is antithetical to the spirit of wikipedia, and not supported by any published policy. I must therefore object. For comparison, the GWBush page is vandalized about twice a second, but remains open for business nonetheless. A double standard here can only be explained by bias or elitism, and the use of censorship to effect either of those is inconsistent with cooperative nature of wikipedia.. Benjamin Gatti

Simple vandalism can be reverted easily. This is a content dispute, and I'm using the protection not to censor anyone, but rather to encourage open discussion and editing on the temp page. Ral315 (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, for what it's worth, I had never heard of the Price-Anderson Act prior to this mediation, and my knowledge of nuclear energy was virtually zero. Ral315 (talk) 14:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, I'm with ya. I had no idea what it was either. And yes, protection in this case is because people (and it wasn't just you Ben) were making edits without consensus, which defeats the purpose of mediation. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 16:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Intro

Obviously the Intro and Criticisms are areas of discussion, so I suggest they each have their own section in Discussion.

Ben's suggestion is: The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) eliminates the laws which protect the public from criminal, negligent, and irresponsible actions for nuclear power plant operators, as well as the requirements that they be adequately insured for liability. The act "indemnifies" private reactors, as well as some government facilities, but does not cover Navy aircraft carriers and submarines. The Act has enabled private participation in nuclear energy in the United States. Environmental groups, consumer groups, taxpayer watchdogs, as well as the Department of Energy has described or criticized the act as a handout to the rich.

To this I object to "eliminates the laws which protect the public from criminal, negligent, and irresponsible actions" as clearly - and in every nuclear worker's initial training - criminal penalties DO apply. I object to "that they be adequately insured for liability", as who is to judge "adequately"? - Congress aparently thinks so, and the Supreme Court said that inadequacy of $560 million was something "which we have already rejected." "Rich" is Ben's personal interpretation - in the recent past utility rates were set by Public Utilities Commissions, and now they're set by the marketplace; I suggest this statement would need an a good, solid cite.

I'll try to blend the initial and Ben's Intros. Simesa 14:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Objection to "that they be fully insured and/or accountable for liability" ?

The DOE has said it is a subsidy for investors. Who are investors if not the rich, and who are taxpayers if not the Poor - remember that income derived from investments are taxed at a lower percent, so the burden of taxes is on the working class principly - who recieve little or no offset subsidies. Benjamin Gatti

Criticisms

I rewrote Criticisms - for the first two paragraphs the changes were minor.

But I'm amazed - no one else objected to the line "Like all subsidies, Price Anderson raises the price of its target commodity by forcing the market to make poor decisions."??? Subsidies immediately lower the price of commodities. If we want to discuss long-term effects of subsidies, we'd need a fairly comprehensive study to cite, as it's not always true that subsidies raise prices in the long-term (windmills, for example).

"Strong financial incentive"? A reload is $150 million. Plants should cost about $1.5 billion. Even the top number, $33 million, if the U.S. government were to charge it, is hardly a deciding factor.

The next line, "The costs of Nuclear energy were grossly underexagerated, and have in fact turned out to be more expensive and dangerous than clean, safe alternatives, such as wind power" is just a commercial for renewables with no impact on Price-Anderson, so I cut it. (As an aside, nuclear did become far more expensive due to huge building delays when the post-Three Mile Island modifications had to be incorporated, but those modifications - and more - are incorporated up-front now.)

I get the feeling that we are missing some valid criticisms, but I'll have to go back and compare to the current article. Mediation isn't a negotiation as to "what I can get in", it's a decision process as to what should be in.Simesa 08:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've added some criticisms back in. Simesa 08:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

1. Presuming that a freedom market is superior to a command economy in providing the best goods at the lowest price, then a deviation from the former raises the cost as the latter is approached. To argue that a free market is not the most effecient is non-trivial, and certainly has not been made here - or referenced. 2. The high number (33M) is annual, a reload is (3-10 years?), and the overnight cost is amortized over 40+ years. Benjamin Gatti P.S. yes I know what a sequitur isn't - and how it's spelled.

Price removes Protection

This is an important point. It removes the basic protections of laws which require those who cause damages to be held responsable for those damages. Without such laws, there would have been zero safety improvements either in cars, industry, airflight - or any other commercial enterprize. Notably after 50 years, nuclear energy is no more safe than it was at the beginning - the incentive to improve is gone - gone - gone. Benjamin Gatti

(see below) Simesa 09:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Can you please translate this into language changes you're seeking? · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

• The purpose of liability laws are to hold persons (ie companies and their investors) completely responsible financially for the damages they may cause. This risk of being sued for damages is what causes car companies to recall their vehicles and correct mistakes. It is a critical part of the give and take of what makes this nation what it is. In other countries - such as Mexico - it is far more likely that careless behaviour which causes damages will not result in justice - or equity - that is the making whole of the injured party at the expense of the responsable party. Price Anderson directly interfers with the only real protection injured people have against those who in their greed would seek to profit by putting other's lives at increased risk.

"The Act removes the quintiessential protections which allow the victims of greed and negligence to be made whole by the courts." Benjamin Gatti

I added the line "This limited liability is in contrast to most other industries, which are generally mostly or fully liable for the troubles and difficulties that their products cause." You guys can reword but I think that's what Ben is getting at. I'm not giving this as "my version". Just trying to translate Ben's words into something NPOV. That's as close as I can get, even though again, it's it can easily be viewed as another criticism seeping into this article. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 00:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I Think that is progress. Two points: The "Protections" were removed by price - not added. Suggesting that the government is adding protection by promising to bail-out the victims is redundant - look at Katrina and every other disaster natural or man-made - the government bails out victims - with or without some prior rhetoric. The difference is that the teeth of liability laws which do in fact guard the safety of each of us by threatening those who would harm us with significant and negative results have been detoothed. The direction which Protection has taken as a result is negative - while the rhetoric is more Washingtonian perjury.

The second point is that Nuclear ought to be compared to its peers specifically - with which it competes. Yes - the general case is that most industries are motivated to improve their safety by imposing the burden of liability on the prime mover. But the specific, and more relevent case is that all other forms of energy are compelled to fully fund their own liabilities and risks, and that to be competative, they must fund their risks and still cost less than nuclear - with its risks fully subsidized. This is a tall order. Equivelent to requiring a marathon runner to be competative while one runner gets a limosine ride during the uphill parts. Benjamin Gatti

How can you look at designs like the ABWR, the passively-safe designs and the inherently-safe PBMR and say there's been no progress in safety??? The post-TMI mods? The IPE process for each plant? Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Because - as the SCOTUS says - in spite of much research, the probablity of a catastrophic accident is greater than 0. In spite of the improvements, the world insurance community is unwilling to insure nuclear plants (still). The plan for Price was as an introductory offer - the reality is that it is still required. You claim that nuclear is safe - the problem is neither SCOTUS or the insuranc market find your claim persuasive - why should I? more importantly why should our readers? Benjamin Gatti

Actually, with the PBMR the chance of a meltdown WILL be zero, and Price-Anderson won't be needed. Congress found nuclear to be persuasively safe, and insurance companies certainly are willing to sell nuclear all the insurance they can. Simesa 23:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

You always ignore criminal penalties. And I disagree that the Congressional promise is redundant - it isn't for banks, for example. And, other than immediate life-support, the Katrina victims are getting mostly low-interest loans, which if used will have to be paid back. (Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC))

Begging pardon for bifurcating your comment; I don't ignore criminal penalties, but how are the trials of Lay, Ebbers, Fastow etc... going to put the money back in the pockets of those who were damaged by their actions. Nuclear plants cannot effectively be tried for crimes at a corporate level, but they can be held financially liable, and that is the biggest stick when dealing with corps - you know this of course, being a far cry from stupid, but look at chernobly - rules were violated, presumably even international laws, was anyone put in prison? What if we sell a nuclear plant to nicaragua, and they sort of screw up, being a bit less uptight about laws than we are, and a cloud spreads over half a continent - how are putting a few hired hands trying to feed their family in jail going to rewind a nuclear event? - won't happen. The only way to prevent a nuclear event is to make t so expensive for the companies involved that they either find a less risky way to generate electricity, or make damn sure there is a zero chance of failure, fraud, corruption, sabatoge etc, or that if there is, the damage is contained. Benjamin Gatti

For those who are wondering, Lay, Ebbers and Fastow refer to corporate fraud cases [17]. Yes, people were put in jail for Chernobyl:

"The trial of the persons accused of being responsible for the Chernobil accident started in July 1987 in Kiev. Two operators, who were originally accused, turned out to be innocent and their firmness was appreciated. (Due to the large dose exposure both of them have died since then.) Verdict was delivered three weeks later. Brukhanov, director of the power plant and Fomin, chief engineer (for tolerating the constructional deficiencies during the building phase of the plant) and Diatlov deputy chief engineer (for the experiment performed irresponsibly) were sentenced for ten years of imprisonment, while three others were sentenced between five and two years. Some of them had to released because their health was damaged by the suffered radiation dose." [18]

Plants sold to foreign countries are not covered by Price-Anderson, which hasn't stopped GE from selling to Mexico, Spain, Taiwan, etc. I agree with the contained viewpoint. Simesa 09:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Your analogy is poor. The subsidy is estimated to be at most $33 million per year per reactor, when a reload costs $150 million and a plant should cost $1.5 billion. The maximum $33 million would be noticed, but is hardly something the industry couldn't live with. Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

As I said above. The anualized frequency would be significant, in addition to which insurance doesn't fully mitigate risk. Bankrupcy is the only limit to liability claims, and a single event could trigger damages in excess of the insurance carriers liquidity, and thereby challenge the companys involved directly. Benjamin Gatti

If your goal is to eliminate Price-Anderson so as to reduce competition, that ship has sailed. Simesa 09:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually that ship has just become ripe for a Constitutional challenge. I definately see Price going to the Supremes again - the one ruling is unpersuasive, based on insufficient data (pre-chernobly), and deals with the rights of victims to be treated equally regardless of the cause of their damages. I believe a stronger argument is the right of wind generators to be treated equally with others in their industry - and not to be exposed to unfair and government subsidized competition. Benjamin Gatti

I can see that in the latest edit Ben has returned to aggressive negotiating. I thought Woohookitty's compromise was a bit much, and I can see that Ben has rejected it as well. I'll try writing my own compromise. Simesa 23:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Flurry of Substance

Perhaps an idea which might help - Instead of the proponents making the sugar-coated case, and leaving it to me to prove some factual deficiency in the best case scenario, how about if the proponents prove some factual inconsistency in the worst-case scenario - which generally is that:

1. In spite of best efforts, all nuclear plant designs available for construction as of 2005 conform to the finding of SCOTUS that "[the risk of catastrophic damages is greater than 0]".
2. That investors, even if by negligence or criminal activity, join in a corporation and cause nuclear damages, would not risk the loss of their investments to those they injure.
3. That investors in safe clean energy have fewer protections against their specialized risks than investors in nuclear energy.
4. That safe clean energy must compete on price with a severe handicap of fewer developmental subsidies, less avoided cost subsidies, and fewer red tape subsidies than nuclear (with almost zero federal support - and some state-level support). Benjamin Gatti

1. Actually, a PBMR has operated in Germany. The passively-safe ESBWR is about to be ordered, and should also have a zero risk of meltdown for at least three days after a LOCA.
2. Investors would lose their investment in the plant, over 1.5 billion dollars, plus up to 95.8 million more at each reactor. That's quite a large risk.
3. This may be true, but then again they pay far less insurance per kilowatt.
4. You don't know government paperwork until you've worked in nuclear (even the site fence defies belief). The subsidies are decided by Congress, and in the new Energy Policy Act of 2005 wind and wave power are being subsidized as well.

Simesa 01:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

1. If safe reactors were available - then Price would not be necessary for the next generation of nuclear plants (per the SCOTUS argument).
2. Investors losses would be limited to the plant, or more meaningfully, their exposure is limited to the ratio that a single plant represents relative to the entire corporation. GE - for example builds all sorts of plants and many of them, the loss of a single reactor would presumably represent less that 1% of the entire portfolio value - while the damages could in fact represent 100% of the portfolio and more. Consequently Price protects 99% of the portfolio value even from criminal and negligent damages.
3. Yes - they pay less per kw in liability insurance, but wind has risks, which like nuclear, are unique to the technology, specifically wind is highly sensative to future fuel prices and rates of inflation. Fairness, I suggest, would mean leveling the risk field - regardless of how the risks are allocated.
4. A mountain of paperwork won't stop a nuclear event. In fact, unecessary paperwork can increase the problem as it makes it more difficult to make objective improvments. Providing economic incentives to be safe - in my opinion is a powerful tool for improving technologies, it has worked excellently in many cases. Benjamin Gatti

1. I agree that Price-Anderson is necessary for one new generation of plants.
2. One of the points of Price-Anderson exactly - company officers were not willing to risk the unrelated portions of their entire companies. Once(if) the industry evolves, that might be handled by spinoffs, as Westinghoue has spun off the Westinghouse Electric Company and GE spun off Global Nuclear Fuels.
3. Under deregulation, competition affects all producers equally: wind and wave, like nuclear, have high capital and maintenance costs but low fuel costs (unless you count the gas turbines necessary to back up wind power). Are you referring to potential tornado and hurricane damage?
4. I disagree that adequate paperwork won't prevent accidents, having dealt with some of that myself. The paperwork can get massive - that's why much of it is "controlled copies", and why the IPE process was computer-based.

Simesa 10:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

1. Then you agree that the new generation is in fact dangerous - ie risk of damages is higher than potential market value.
2. Corporate shielding is a pruriet and increasingly less effective gambit, If nuclear plants were safe, then there would be no risk, if they are not safe, then the corporations which build them (and yes, that is likely to be large corporations) ought to be fully responsible for their criminal or negligent activities. - removing this requirement is Removing a Public Protection agreed?
3. Paperwork - yawn, let's agree it's not a serious issue either way.

Benjamin Gatti

1. My reading of designs and PRA results indicates that the current generation of U.S. plants are more than adequately safe, the next generation of passively-safe designs are extremely safe, and the generation after that is expected to be inherently safe.
2. Not agreed, as the public is adequately protected by Price-Anderson as found in the Supreme Court decision - the government chose to step in, and to impose stricter laws upon nuclear-related corporations as well as individuals (see, for example, the replies in [19]).

Simesa 03:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Temp Edits

Actually Simesa, I was just trying to NPOV the words Ben was trying to use. Didn't see it as trying to make a compromise. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

But apparently, Ben thought I was agreeing with him, so he attempted a ridiculously POV edit. Won't you ever give up? An edit that POV is *never* going to be accepted by Simesa, Katefan and myself. Ever. I mean...

"The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act removes the protections victims deserve against companies which by criminal, negligent, or malicious means cause or permit nuclear radiation to harm the public."

"Deserve" is a word that should never be in an intro of a Wikipedia article unless it's something like "some argue that people deserve...". Ral, the thing that's so frustrating here is that Ben doesn't just go an inch into POV land. He's go so far into it that it's impossible to negotiate on it. How do you compromise on something THAT POV? I mean in the part I quoted, it's entirely POV from removes to public. I can't even start to couch that it's so POV. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

What you have failed to argue is which part is false. I'm sure once we agree on the facts, the neutral expression of same will come.

Would you accept Benjamin Gatti

Ben, that's not the issue. We need to make the article NPOV. It needs to be balanced. What you give here is even more POV than what you put on the temp page. And then you cry censorship when you know it's not the issue. I agree with your points. I always have. But that's not the point. We're building a NPOV, collaborative encyclopedia. I've told you all of this before many many times. We're just going round in circles.

The problem, Ben, is that you seem to throw fact and opinion all into one pot. What you put here and on the temp page is *your opinion*. It's not "facts". It's your take on the facts, which is your opinion. I'm not singling you out. It's a common misconception about Wikipedia that I run into on political articles constantly. Wikipedia is not about throwing opinions into the articles and then seeing what fits. It's not let's put up one opinion and then put another one up there and let's see what the majority agrees with. Instead, it's writing articles with no particular opinion. Neutral articles. That's why I refuse to argue what you call "facts". It's not the issue. The issue is that we need to have an article that presents both sides of the issue in as neutral language as possible. Even the critical sections of articles need to follow some semblance of NPOV. In other words, it always has to be "some argue" or "some say" or "critics say". Even the critical sections of articles don't try the stuff you try. It doesn't use the authoritative voice to declare that the law is evil.

Anyway, I'm just tired of doing this over and over and over again. We're not allowing words that POV into the article. I don't know how many times I have to say that. You make no effort to make the language neutral. You expect us to do all of the couching and then you complain when we do it. Enough! --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Mike, where you and I get stuck I believe is that you want to assert an opinion of the GAO - that is this assertion that congress "intended" to "protect" the public with Price. I think this is a. an opinion, and b. ridiculous. I believe they intended to improve funding for the coldwar nuclear race by compelling the electrical market to fund nuclear reactors whether it made economic sense or not. In my opinion that is a morally neutral choice in the context of a race, but given that the context is now anachronistic, I believe the market should be freed from this irrational constraint. In any case, this assertion can/should not be asserted as an unqualified fact any more than my opinions to the contrary should be. We will stop this editwar only when we can agree on that point. Meanwhile, ink is free. Benjamin Gatti

I really wish you'd be consistent on tactics. Now we're back to "on target, cooperative" Ben. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 08:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

From the Archives

This was an intro I proposed some months back - Anyone care to attack it factually - or is everyone content to try to endrun the facts by complaining about personalities?

"The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (1957) provides Federal Indemnity for private nuclear reactor operators against catastrophic nuclear accidents in the United States. The Act releases plant operators from Federal and State liability laws under which the operators could be held financially responsible for any and all damage to the public caused by a nuclear accident or similar radiological event. Because the nascent insurance industry did not offer policies large enough to cover the costs of a nuclear event in the 1950's, and because the cost would render nuclear energy uncompetative, Congress established a pooled insurance system in which each reactor would insure all of the other reactors up to USD $88 Million per reactor with the Federal government providing up to USD $500 Million additional insurance if necessary; Congress also limited the amount of compensation permitted for people killed, poisened, or genetically disfigured by nuclear radiation, even if caused by the knowing and willful misconduct of senior staff and management. The Act is a risk subsidy which artificially reduces the cost of nuclear energy, making it nearly competative with coal and oil. Like most subsides, it has been panned by both left-wing environmentalists and right-wing fiscal conservatives as contrary to a free market, and a form of corporate welfare which takes from the poor and gives to a few comparatively wealthy energy investors.

Benjamin Gatti

While I've been trying not to comment that much on individual ideas, remember that NPOV is not achieved by text that distracts the user's emotions from the issue. I'm looking at "genetically disfigured" specifically. And a word change may be in order in the case of 'nascent' - I consider myself well read, but can honestly say I've never heard the word used. (I have no opinion on the content of this paragraph personally, however, either way) Ral315 (talk) 02:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

How would you describe children born with genetically contained deformities induced by exposure to radiation in utero other than this? Are you suggesting we use euphemisms such as collateral damage? We do not have a mandate to clothe a holocaust in a shroud of presumed righteousness. Here is the dictionary per the US Army at [20]

"(a) At 15 rad, there may be up to a 6% chance that the child could be mentally retarded. Conversely, there is at least a 94% chance the child will not have such a radiation- induced anomaly. "

'f. Heritable changes in the reproductive organs may occur that could, theoretically, affect the progeny of the conceptus but not the conceptus itself.

2. Effect of ionizing radiation.

a. Malformation and Prenatal Death

b. Growth Retardation

c. Neurological Effects

d. Severe Mental Retardation

e. Intellectual deficit

f. Seizures

g. Occurrence of Malignancies.

Benjamin Gatti

At extremely high dosages the above are possible, which is why the NRC mandated nuclear-grade designs and construction, licensed operators, containments, 10-mile Emergency Planning Zones and FEMA-supervised annual drills.

Harvard Medical School researched the radioogical results of Chernobyl in [21].

Simesa 03:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

We agree, These are the risks which victims would not have recourse against a corporation, which even by criminal means, caused a radiation incident in the United States. The probability is high enough that nuclear energy companies are unwilling to take the risk - do they know something you don't? BIO Benjamin Gatti

All I'm saying is that it distracts the reader from the main issue, which is the act itself. And now, I'm going to leave the rest of you to decide whether it belongs. Ral315 (talk) 05:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Kicking up dust

Mike has drawn up a personality complaint (which is common enough when losing the battle on the merits) I have taken the liberty to respond and list this article, as well as the complaint under: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, natural science, and technology, and may I suggest things were more civil prior to the censorship regime. I'm not fond of censorship, it is unpersuasive at best, and tends not to bring out anyone's friendlier side. Benjamin Gatti 01:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

May I say that the reason I locked the main page was that any time a user changed something, it was quickly changed and edited, and then someone would inevitably decide that the changed version was inferior (whether it was or not, I don't know), and revert. Nobody was making any real progress- in three tries, the page was reverted within just hours. Censorship was not my goal; in fact, I believe that having edits on a temp page promotes more open discussion of the topic. Ral315 (talk) 02:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Locking a page promotes the agenda of the last editor, and it violates established wikipedia policy, which in my opinion, is a poor way to advocate that others comply. Benjamin Gatti

Unprotecting would certainly unleash edit-warring. Simesa 04:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Ben, #1 me opening a RfC against you is not an issue for this page. And #2, apparently you think this is some sort of joke. You actually signed the proposed RfC I made (it isn't even live yet) as God. And you also put in your own text in the "parties to the dispute" section. I'd suggest you take all of this more seriously. It's not "censorship". It's following the rules of the site. Please start following them. It's not your words we object to. It's the never ending delaying tactics and the always changing strategy and the constant gaming of the system. I'd politely suggest that you stop treating this all as a fiddle. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 08:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Good luck with your Jihad, I've already got God on my side (dibs). (every epic conflict involves manipulating with side God favors, Vietnam was US v. godless commies, now its the baptized GW v. the uncircumcized). Well, you've already deleted the response of your target - so I'm confident people will see through your chirade. Benjamin Gatti

Please, guys, let's keep the personal attacks, and the religion and politics out. We're here to write an encyclopedia, not bring up partisan views. Ral315 (talk) 06:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe Mike has established that he is here to censor the views of others by any means. He drew up a slanderpage, invited his friends to comment, and then when I responded in the (response) section of the RfC template, he promptly excized it, and when I reverted his vandalism, he had one of his admin friends purge the evidence. I object and complain. Benjamin Gatti

Actually, what he did was begin drawing up an RFC on you in his personal user space. You chose to edit it instead of waiting until it was posted in the Wikipedia main space. The one being disruptive was you. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I have never done any business with User:Doc glasgow. He is not my "admin friend". And #2, please take responsibility for your actions. If we do put a Request for Comment on you, it's not like I made all of your actions up out of whole cloth. Yes Ben, I'm just out to hang you. Please. And by the way Ben, this isn't the place for this. If you want to complain about any administrator actions I've made, you can do so on the appropriate RfC page. The thing is, there is absolutely no policy against opening a "practice" RfC page on one's userspace and to tell others about it. It's been done many times in the past and it'll be done many times in the future. And I wish you would quit yelling censorship. What? We're just supposed to let Wikipedia become a free for all. See, that's what blogs are for. If chastising you because you keep violating policy is "censorship", then i guess all of our policies are "censorship".

And the other thing is that this is not the only article. So if we do open a RfC on you, it's about your user conduct, not about any specific article. I mention this because when I had the page up, you had something up from when Ral said that the arby committee doesn't take up content disputes. Well Ben, this is more than a content dispute. It's continued bad behavior that has been demonstrated in this article, in Looting, nuclear power and some others.

Anyway Ral, sorry for this, but I felt like I needed to respond to his latest series of attacks. I'm a respected administrator. I am not out to "censor" anyone. Please. Yes, I woke up today and went "How can I screw Ben?". No. I'm attempting to keep Wikipedia clean and tidy and without bias. That's the job that the people who voted for me wanted me to do and I'll continue to do that job. This whole argument is not about censoring Benjamin Gatti. It's about getting this page to be NPOV. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 16:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Certainly Mike is permitted to open up an RfC anywhere he wants, but those who are criticised "By Name" in any forum have the absolute right to respond. Deleting such a response is censorship of the highest order, and has nothing to do with neat and tidy. Benjamin Gatti

Ben, it wasn't live yet! And it was within my rights to ask for its speedy deletion. Here is the policy. Read it. Or do your usual and don't. Your choice. Btw, notice that the entire subpage is deleted, not just your comment. So it's not as if I just removed your comments. They are all removed. Also, once the RfC goes live, you will have every chance to respond. So let's drop the "Censorship!!" cry, shall we? I violated no policies. It was something on my own personal user page. You could do the exact same thing. Despite what you implied, I did not "pull rank". Any user could have asked for that page to be speedied. And the request would've been granted because users can ask for their subpages to be deleted. So let's not make this into something it's not. And one more thing. Putting a practice RfC on my user page is NOT "opening up a RfC". It's not as if it's official. It's not as if other users will treat it as official. It's just another attempt at gaming the system. You know the policy. You know I'm within my rights. So drop it already and let's get back to the issues, shall we? --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 20:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Mike, your criticisms were both personal and public enough that Simesa, Kate, and I all knew about them, use whatever rationale you like, I will not concede the absolute right of a person named in a complaint to respond, and subsequent censorship is condemnable. You do not have the right to censor those who are defending themself from your baseless attacks. Benjamin Gatti

Go away. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 21:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Revert of 10/31/05 3 am UTC

I'm reverting because of the following objections to the following lines:

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) eliminates public safety laws in all fifty states

Nonsense, Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations covers nuclear safety.

and protects criminally negligent nuclear operators from being held financially responsible for criminal acts

The Supreme Court said "the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages", and criminal law is enhanced, not reduced.

The Act makes it a crime for private persons to protect themselves against a nuclear event by insuring their own property against an explosion at a nuclear energy plant.

No it doesn't - the situation there is that the industry has already bought up all the insurance available, as required by the Act.

In the event that a corporation commits a criminal act which leads to wide-spread devastation similar to Chernobl, taxpayers and victims, rather than the corporation will be held financially responsible for the damage.

The reactors will be liable for at least $10 billion, but this statement is partially correct - but since Chernobyl was vastly unlike any U.S. power plant, it doesn't belong in the intro.

The Act is part of the Energy Policy of President George W. Bush.

So what? Congress passed the Energy Policy Act of 2005 with bi-partisan support, why mention Bush but not that?

Simesa 04:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep. Again, the problem is that some of edits go so far into POV land that they are unrecoverable. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 08:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)