Talk:Pride (LGBTQ culture)

Page move reversion

So the page was moved back to LGBT pride. Which is fine. People are allowed to disagree. I just wanted to share my opinion, however, that another RM is likely to eat up a lot of time, and I'm not sure it's going to result in a different outcome anyway. LGBTQ seems to be the most popular term IRL and on here, even if LGBT pride is more popular via Ngrams.

Personally, I think we should just move the page to LGBTQ pride per WP:CONSUB so we can all move on with our lives. That said, if people really want to relitigate the whole thing again, then please ping me. Lewisguile (talk) 11:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic You may want to do another RM here, given that this has been reverted? Lewisguile (talk) 16:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@Lewisguile see below, it took some research of the last move discussion to understand how the article ended up here.

I think following this, it's pretty clear that yes, the article should be moved. Raladic (talk) 19:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Sterling work. In that case, we may see a WP:SNOWBALL here and can resolve this quickly enough. Lewisguile (talk) 06:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Pride (LGBTQ culture). There is a clear consensus here to move this article, and that the new title should use LGBTQ. However, opinions were divided on whether it should be moved to LGBTQ pride, Pride (LGBTQ), or Pride (LGBTQ culture). Of the latter two, Pride (LGBTQ culture) was found to be the preferable one as it uses a noun as the parenthetical. In the end, though natural disambiguation without parentheses is generally preferred, most editors agreed on Pride (LGBTQ culture), citing the overwhelming predominance of the simple term pride as a special circumstance justifying the use of parenthetical disambiguation. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 11:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

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LGBT pride → LGBTQ pride – The page was moved from Gay pride to LGBT pride a few years ago in recognition that this article is about Pride of the community, not just exclusively the Gay community, despite the term Gay pride still being higher in use than LGBT pride was at the time, so the consensus for the article was explicitly to deviate from exclusively applying WP:COMMONNAME as a compound word in the move in 2022 in recognition that the true common name nowadays is just Pride without any qualifiers. Now as a followup some years later, I propose we move it to LGBTQ pride in recognition of the community continuing to evolve and explicitly adding the Q as was also recently done in the main article LGBTQ (RM discussion) in recognition of LGBTQ replacing just LGBT. The person that contested the bold move argued that WP:COMMONNAME applied, but as I pointed out, this article is already not named in line with strict common name of the combined term, but in recognition of the community as the true common name today is simply "Pride" (in line with the sibling articles Pride Month and Pride parade, which doesn't need a qualifier, so no suffix or prefix is needed to disambiguate) without any qualifiers, but since the article requires a qualifier to differentiate it from just the English word Pride, it was then decided to add LGBT for it, which was the common name for the community at large at the time, consistent with the parent article, which was also LGBT at the time and instead of using Pride (LGBT) it was decided to use LGBT Pride per WP:NATURAL to use a prefix, not a suffix, so the current article title should not be interpreted as a compound word, but instead is just a natural combination instead of suffix disambiguation. Following this now, I believe means we should continue to now also follow WP:CONSUB for consistent titling of sub-articles related to the parent title. This is also supported if we combine LGBTQ pride and Queer pride, which is about double that of just LGBT pride per Google Ngram and this also shows that LGBT pride is on a downwards trend since 2017, while LGBTQ pride and Queer pride both are on an upwards trajectory, both individually, as well as combined having overtaken just LGBT pride since 2016. The other alternative would be to break from the natural title disambiguation and call the aticle Pride (LGBTQ) in recognition that the name of the article is just Pride and that the prefix or suffix are just disambiguators from Pride (disambiguation) terms. Raladic (talk) 19:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 14:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Support LGBTQ pride. Per Ngrams, LGBT pride and LGBTQ pride were essentially tied two years ago, with LGBT pride on a downward trend and LGBTQ pride on an upward trend. Per the WP:COMMONNAME policy, when there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used, the name should be selected by applying the listed principles. The relevant ones for distinguishing between LGBT and LGBTQ here are consistency with other articles (particularly LGBTQ) and precision (the article includes, rather than excludes, queer individuals in its scope).--Trystan (talk) 20:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  I also support Pride (LGBTQ culture) as an option.--Trystan (talk) 02:21, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  Just for clarity, to explicitly cover off the other three criteria: the difference between a four-letter initialism and a five-letter initialism is as minimal as it gets when it comes to concision and naturalness, so I don’t think they carry much weight here. Both LGBT and LGBTQ are similar in recognizability, though the latter is now somewhat more common. But I think the criteria that really distinguish the two are precision and consistency, as discussed above.--Trystan (talk) 14:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support Pride (LGBTQ culture) There is no overwhelmingly common wording of this that can be used per WP:NATURAL, so a disambiguation should still be used here in order to ensure better agreement. Looking at the previous move discussion, I am surprised it did not close as "no consensus", as the proponents of the current name were largely just voting for it while ignoring arguments to the contrary, but that may have had to do with the dubious non-admin closure. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  "The current name" meaning LGBT (as per this article) or LGBTQ (as per the category RM that kicked off this discussion)? I think most people making a !vote for LGBTQ were actually basing it on evidence (changing usage of LGBTQ versus LGBT), whereas most of those opposing it did so because they thought queer was offensive/a slur, but I couldn't see a commonly cited policy for that other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. There weren't really any policy-based reasons to stick with LGBT, once Ngrams showed it was on a downward trend. Lewisguile (talk) 06:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support LGBTQ pride. Would also accept Pride (LGBTQ culture), however, since most people do just call it pride (but a similar suggestion was declined in 2022). I strongly oppose LGBT pride for the reasons given above by Raladic and Trystan, including WP:CONSUB, but also because it's not future-proof. Lewisguile (talk) 06:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Pride (LGBTQ) or Pride (LGBTQ culture) are good alternatives. Lewisguile (talk) 06:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The common name seems to be LGBTQ pride. JIP | Talk 08:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME, which shows clearly that LGBT pride is the more common, and it is not close. See discussion. I would not oppose either of Raladic's parenthetical disambiguated title solutions, Pride (LGBT), or Pride (LGBTQ). Mathglot (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support for Pride (LGBTQ) or Pride (LGBTQ culture) per below discussion and my original write up as proposer of the move to signify that the article's common name is really just "Pride" nowadays, in line with the sibling articles and that we simply just need a disambiguator, but should avoid the confusion that it is more common than the various alternatives as a compound (since in that case, the article would really still be Gay Pride). So since a lot of the argument is basically that natural disambiguation here is not optimal as it lead to the whole confusion to begin with, we should instead use parenthetical disambiguation instead with either LGBTQ or LGBTQ culture as the parens disambiguator (for which both of those terms unambiguously now LGBTQ has overtaken LGBT, so it make the discussion of the other part moot. Raladic (talk) 01:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support for Pride (LGBTQ) or Pride (LGBTQ culture) per Raladic. Weak support for LGBTQ Pride or Queer Pride; Oppose any titles including just LGBT without the Q or any title with a lowercase P for Pride. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 08:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support "LGBTQ" somewhere in the title per WP:CONSISTENT. RodRabelo7 (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - per WP:COMMONNAME. All the supports are basically saying we should ignore the common name guideline because they prefer this title. Essentially WP:ILIKEIT. And yes, I know that is an argument to avoid at deletion but the logic is properly extended here. We should go with the guideline which is there for a reason and has a higher WP:CONLEVEL than this discussion. The argument that Pride is often not qualified at all is an argument for a different move that I would support. That is -> Pride (LGBT) or Pride (LGBT culture). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  I explained my support !vote with a detailed analysis of how the COMMONNAME policy applies, expanded on in the discussion below. Application of the criteria is a fundamental part of the policy.

  If the article were to use parenthetical disambiguation, why use LGBT or LGBT culture given the respective articles are at LGBTQ and LGBTQ culture?--Trystan (talk) 13:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  I read the discussion below regarding COMMONNAME, and noted that even in your challenge to Mathglot, you still showed that this is not yet established as the COMMONNAME. When the evidence is that it is the COMMONNAME this can be revisited, but at this point you are simply making a projection about the future. Same point on the parenthetical. If, as you suggest, this will be the COMMONNAME at some point, then that is the point where we change the name. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  You seem to be using COMMONNAME to mean whichever name has a numerical advantage in Ngrams, however slight. That isn’t what the COMMONNAME policy actually says. The focus of the WP:AT policy as a whole is on application of the five criteria: recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision, and consistency. The COMMONNAME portion of the policy says to apply the criteria “when there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used”; if that applies anywhere, it must apply when the numbers are as close as they are here. COMMONNAME also says application of the criteria may justify selecting something other than the numerically most-common name in some cases. That is the analysis on which I based my position.--Trystan (talk) 14:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, why is why most of us now shifted our support for ‘Pride’ as the self standing most COMMONNAME with a parenthetical disambiguation, as it became clear that the article should have been there already after the 2022 move instead of using the natural disambiguation that led to the confusion to begin with.

  The outcome of a move discussion can shift during it, there’s no need for a separate discussion if the participants are in agreement on an alternative as appears to be the case here, and it looks like you also support the alternative. Note that lone standing both LGBTQ and LGBTQ culture are the COMMONNAME now as the article titles of those two respective articles indicate, so the disambiguator in parenthesis would include the Q. Raladic (talk) 15:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• I support the expansions (LGBTQ Pride, LGBT+ Pride, LGBTQIA+ pride, etc); I'm neutral on "Pride (LGBTQ)" and its variants. Web-julio (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support any version with LGBTQ, with my preference being LGBTQ pride > Pride (LGBTQ culture) > Pride (LGBTQ). There's convincing evidence that there is no common name besides just "Pride", which is not an option here. We need disambiguation, and consistency with the main article is the weightiest criteria applicable. I have a preference for natural disambiguation over parenthesized, and Trystan made a good point about NCDAB suggesting noun parenthetical disambiguators. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Claims that LGBTQ pride is the WP:COMMONNAME are simply incorrect, which, I suppose, is why no one is showing their work. In fact, LGBT pride is still more common. in the ratio of about 8 to 5. Most of the comments after the original proposal are not policy-based.

That said, Raladic's proposal is well-reasoned, in particular in raising the previous history and the part about Pride month and Pride parade not needing a qualifier, and attempting to make a link with WP:CONSUB as legitimizing this move. However, I think that step is weak, more like a leap. It's a good thing we don't try that same style argument at Pride parade, because ngrams give you this, with plenty of results for 'LGBT Pride parade' but insufficient data for 'LGBTQ Pride parade' even to plot it.

Finally, Wikipedia is not a leading indicator; we don't get out in front of a topic as evidenced by its secondary sources, even when it is trending; we lag behind until the result is clear. And we certainly don't change titles because one term is trending down, or because we think that another term will surpass it in the future. The truth is, that 'LGBTQ pride' *is* trending up, and 'LGBT pride' is trending down but is still in the lead, significantly. In all likelihood 'LGBTQ pride' is likely to overtake 'LGBT pride' in the future, possibly the near future (and I will change my vote, per the evidence, when it does). But Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and there is WP:NORUSH; it is just not quite there yet. WP:COMMONNAME still applies, LGBT pride is still the most common, and in my opinion, we should bide our time until the change is clear. We are not quite there yet; be patient. Mathglot (talk) 00:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's why in the proposal I summarized of how the article ended up where it did to begin with and the confusion, since the move from 2022 really was about that just 'Pride' is really the common name, but obviously can't be plotted since it's also just a plain English term. So I think maybe the alternative that I brought up of naming the article 'Pride (LGBTQ)' is the better solution to signify that just Pride is the name of the article and the disambiguator just serves to differentiate from the other articles that share the same name. Raladic (talk) 01:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

And here's the same chart with case insensitivity turned on and smoothing reduced, which shows a much closer result (as of two years ago). COMMONNAME puts more emphasis on the five WP:CRITERIA than on making it a numbers game. I think the numbers are close enough (and complicated by Pride alone being far more dominant) that the following guidance applies: "When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly."--Trystan (talk) 02:30, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

That sounds convincing to me, Trystan. I would accept Pride (LGBTQ) or Pride (LGBTQ culture) as well. Lewisguile (talk) 06:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

If we are to comment about ngram, "LGBTQIA+ Pride" is 348% bigger than "LGBTQ pride" and "LGBT Pride" added to each other. But I'm wondering if the plus is tricking the results. Web-julio (talk) 19:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

You made it an arithmetic operation, to make it a term, you have to put it in square brackets - like this. Raladic (talk) 22:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject LGBT studies has been notified of this discussion. Web-julio (talk) 18:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

It already was previously - see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Requested move at Talk:LGBT pride#Requested move 24 September 2024. Raladic (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I hadn't seen a note here. Web-julio (talk) 01:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: LGBTQ pride or Pride (LGBTQ)? -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 14:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

My read of the discussion was that there was general a higher consensus for "Pride (LGBTQ)" as less ambiguous instead of the natural disambiguation which caused the confusion of contention to begin with. Would you like people who commented above to explicitly restate it? Should we ping them @Maddy from Celeste? Raladic (talk) 03:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If we are confirming support for updated options, I would suggest asking for comment on Pride (LGBTQ culture) as well, as it has a lot of support above. WP:NCDAB seems to strongly support nouns as parenthetical disambiguators and says adjectives should only rarely be used.--Trystan (talk) 03:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Good point. Then I'd say Pride (LGBTQ culture) is preferred based on the NCDAB policy and above support for either as you pointed out. Raladic (talk) 03:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I did not see any consensus for which of the options to move to, and yes, that includes the one with "(LGBTQ culture)" – I was mostly considering the distinction between natural and parenthetical disambiguation. As I saw it, many participants supported any of the options, without specifying an order of preference, which made finding a consensus difficult. Pinging those editors would be great; I can do it later today. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 07:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd support Pride (LGBTQ culture). That seems unequivocally clear, precise, and inclusive. I think most who said Pride (LGBTQ) would also be fine with (LGBTQ culture); it just wasn't in the nom so they may not have spotted it in the comments. Lewisguile (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Trystan, JIP, RodRabelo7, and Lewisguile: would you like to state which you prefer of LGBTQ pride, Pride (LGBTQ), and Pride (LGBTQ culture)? -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 14:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Pride (LGBTQ culture) is my preference. Lewisguile (talk) 15:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I support that as well.--Trystan (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer LGBTQ pride. JIP | Talk 20:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Would you settle for Pride (LGBTQ culture)? Lewisguile (talk) 05:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the simple change to LGBTQ pride, but if the decision is to move the article to Pride (LGBTQ culture), I'm not going to argue with that. JIP | Talk 08:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Similarly, I prefer Pride (LGBTQ culture) but wouldn't quibble about LGBTQ pride either. Lewisguile (talk) 08:45, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

No strong preferences for any of them. RodRabelo7 (talk) 10:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.