Talk:Evangelical Church in Germany

Name Evangelical vs Protestant

The German word "Evangelisch" is to my understanding better translated to Protestant than to Evangelical, s. Protestant Reformation, Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau. Consistency is desirable, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

See this thread in the archives as well as several threads in Archive 1 for previous discussion on this. The church itself uses the name "Evangelical Church in Germany" on its English-language website. And using the word Evangelical in the meaning of German evangelisch is not unknown in English, although it's rare compared to its usual meaning "having to do with Evangelicalism". Using Evangelical in its "German meaning" is especially common in the names of churches, such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America or the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada, neither of which is "Evangelical" in that word's most common English meaning. —Angr (talk) 12:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I have no time to read all this, but to remark that such translations from German institutions often lack knowledge of English, therefore the least controversial way might be to use the German name as the article name and give translations as redirects, as it is done for many German universities and theaters, s. Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst Frankfurt am Main or Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The first of those links redirects to Frankfurt University of Music and Performing Arts, though. Using German names of institutions is fine when they don't have English names, but the EKD does have an English name, and its English name is no more misleading or incorrect than the names of the North American churches I mentioned above. And those were (presumably) named by native English speakers. —Angr (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the bad example, smile (but there are others, like Hochschule für Musik und Theater München). I don't doubt that native English speakers name churches "Evangelical" which tend to Evangelicalism. The German official churches called "Evangelische Kirche" don't. I am afraid that is misleading, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

No, my point is that there are churches named "Evangelical" by native English speakers that are not evangelikal but only evangelisch, including the two listed above: the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada. Neither of those two churches adheres to Evangelicalism; they are using the word "evangelical" in the same way as the EKD uses the word "evangelisch". Although the English word "evangelical" most often means evangelikal, it can also mean evangelisch. Especially in the names of churches. —Angr (talk) 15:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's great that the article addresses potential confusiion related to the meaning of "Evangelical," but is there no citation for it. As an Evangelical Lutheran myself, I had the impression that it meant "the same as the 'Evangelical' you normally think of except that we're shy/nice about it and instead of standing on street corners with a sign, just tell visitors that there's coffee after the service and leave it at that."208.68.128.53 (talk) 23:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Nope, that is commonly confused. " Evangelicalism is a moderate form of Protestant Christian fundamentalism and has roots in American culture. The term "evangelical" used in this article was used by Luther and early Protestants to describe their doctrines as faithful to the gospel. Obviously, you can be both evangelical and Evangelical Lutheran. Ltwin (talk) 00:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

minorities

"Important Protestant denominations that are not part of the Evangelical Church in Germany include the United Methodist Church ... (whole paragraph)" is incorrect.

"Important" maybe in the U.S. but not in Germany. These are very small denominations and seen as more or less exotic. Methodists and Baptists never had a foothold in Germany, Pentecostals and Adventists are seen as American sects not to be taken seriously, and the New Apostolic Church is highly unpopular for their authoritarian style.

Again, none of all these denominations is important in Germany as they neither are influential nor have a meaningful number of members. They are dwindingly small. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.71.12 (talk) 09:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

New Apostolic Church

Why is the New Apostolic Church counted among the "Protestant" churches here? It developed from the Roman Catholic church, it is not part of any ecumenical associations like the World Council of Churches or any protestant associations, their teachings differ from those of the Protestant churches to a degree which makes ecumenical or "protestant" contact difficult to say the least. I mean it's o.k. to state that they do not belong to the EKD (obviously), but it's misleading to include them in a sentence beginning with "Other Protestant denominations". --Anna (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Our article New Apostolic Church says "The New Apostolic Church (NAC) is a chiliastic church, converted to Protestantism as a free church from the Catholic Apostolic Church" and "Most of its doctrines are akin to mainstream Christianity and, especially its liturgy, to Protestantism, whereas its hierarchy and organisation could be compared with the Roman Catholic Church", so if you disagree I'd take it up at Talk:New Apostolic Church. Angr (talk) 10:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Basically, you are right of course; this question should be tackled on the main NAC page. However, this article describes the situation in Germany, and it seems to me that the use of these terms may vary depending on the region and the situation. Just compare the use of the term "united" for different regions and church bodies.

I don't know if you read any German, but if you compare the German article, you will find that the NAC is certainly not considered a Protestant church in Germany due to their special teachings and their lack of participation in ecumenical contexts. --Anna (talk) 12:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I do read German, but I'm not sure what you're looking at in that article. It says, "Die neuapostolische Kirche ist weder im Ökumenischen Rat der Kirchen noch in der Arbeitsgemeinschaft christlicher Kirchen (ACK) vertreten und arbeitet auch nicht in der Evangelischen Allianz mit, wobei mittlerweile Aufnahmeanträge gestellt wurden oder Annäherungen bestehen", which just means they don't participate in various ecumenical organizations, including the Evangelische Allianz, but that's probably true of various other unquestionably Protestant Freikirchen as well. I think the question of whether the NAK can be considered Protestant or not is probably as open to interpretation as the question whether Anglicans can be considered Protestant or not. (And that is a recurrent issue in Wikipedia articles: do we say "Anglicans and Protestants" or do we say "Anglicans and other Protestants"? Either solution is non-NPOV, leading to protracted battles over the single word other.) Angr (talk) 12:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The participation in ecumenical organisations is one thing only. The set of special teachings is another. Of course every small church has their set of special teachings, but the ones of the NAC really are pretty far from Protestant teachings. What's more though, these teachings themselves (apostle, sacraments, exclusivism) basically prevent further ecumenical relationships. --Anna (talk) 14:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Seventh-day Adventists are mentioned in the same paragraph, and I'd say their classification as Protestants is just as questionable (some people don't even consider them Christians, let alone Protestants). But the more I think about it, the less I see the point of the entire paragraph. It's threatening to become a list of Christian denominations in Germany from which only the EKD, the Roman Catholics, and the Old Catholics are excluded. Any objections to removing the whole paragraph on the grounds that the article doesn't need to define the EKD on the basis of who isn't in it? Angr (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

None at all. On the contrary, I think that's a great Solomonic solution which will solve this problem without offending anyone. Or we'll end up repeating this discussion as soon as someone comes up with the idea of listing Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses among the Protestant churches, making it necessary to explain why they are not part of the EKD. --Anna (talk) 21:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Merging of three churches to one church in Northern Germany in 2012

Evangelical church in Germany

In 2012, three churches in northern parts of Germany merged to one church.

• nordkirche.de (german) 178.3.31.188 (talk) 18:07, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Name of the article

Sorry the name “Evangelical” might be the correct word by word translation but holds completely different connotations in English. I would suggest to replace the word “Evangelical” with “Protestant”. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

True, see above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Page Move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This page was boldly moved from "Evangelical Church in Germany"; the move was reverted, and the discussion here finds no agreement that the move was appropriate. Closed (see last comment) and archived by Moonraker12 (talk) 10:00, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

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I moved the page from “Evangelical Church of Germany” to “Protestant Church in Germany (EKD)”. The English term “Evangelical” holds the same connotations as it does in German. The German term “Evangelisch” should however be translated as “protestant” not as “Evangelical”.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:33, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with Catflap08's move, which was done without consensus. "Evangelical" has a different meaning in Europe and North America, but the term is perfectly correct in English in both continents. --Checco (talk) 14:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I moved the article back to its original and well-established name, Evangelical Church in Germany. It is true that evangelisch in the German context has usually a different meaning than evangelical in the North American context (see Evangelicalism#Usage and Evangelical–disambiguation), but, as discussed many times (most recently, as far as I know, at Talk:Evangelical People's Party of Switzerland#Evangelical vs. protestant), the most obvious translation for evangelisch is evangelical. It's indeed no surprise that, even in the United States, there are churches, most notably the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, still including evangelical in their name, while not being evangelical from a North American point of view. One always needs to remember that names of organizations not always explain their nature, theology, polity, ideology, etc. (Examples? Conservative Judaism and the Social Democratic Party of Portugal, which is not a social-democratic party but a conservative one, are just two.) Most articles on European churches/denominations including the term evangelical (evangelisch, évangélique, evangelico, etc.), notably including most EKD's member churchers, have been translated in en.Wiki using the term evangelical. --Checco (talk) 08:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You call the name well-established, I would only call it established. The problem is a result of translation. The best solution, if you ask me, would be to move to the original German name(s). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

With "well-established" I meant that it was the name of the article for most of its "life", since its start in April 2003. I understand and respect your opinion, but I think that articles should have English names as long as it is possible in order to make them more intelligible for readers (especially those not speaking European languages), who understand better English than any other language. --Checco (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

We can agree on long-established and that in general an English title is preferable. In this case, someone imagining the EKD as anything close to evangelism will be mislead. There is a nice explanation of the name in the article but way too late. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I would most strongly disagree here. I had a similar discussion in the article on East Germany in this discussion I was outvoted as I wanted the article to be named German Democratic Republic. On which grounds was it overturned? Common usage. Evangelical holds both in German AND English a very much different connotation as to what the article is about. In German the term “Evangelikal” also exists and thereby corresponds to the usage of “Evangelical” in today’s English. The EKD however is the umbrella organisation of PROTESTANT churches in Germany – not evangelical congregations. What the Swiss make of it is of no importance here as Swiss German varies slightly from standard German anyways and most of all this article is about the protestant Church in Germany – its members would surely not like to be thrown into the same pot as Evangelicals (German “Evangelikale”). At any rate to translate the term “evangelisch” is by all means in linguistic ways utterly wrong! A good translation should keep the meaning of what is said and the articles name does not serve that purpose at all.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Disagree with what? To move the article (and similar ones) to the original German name, as I mentioned above? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I disagree to translate the term “evangelisch” with “evangelical” – it should read “protestant”. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I said so in 2011, look above. We will not succeed because the EKD was [...] enough to have the wrong translation on their website. Therefore I seriously suggest to move to Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland. Nope the article should read “Protestant Church of Germany” as this is the English not German Wikipedia. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Best then to first write to the EKD to change their website. - Some articles are fine, see Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau. - This is the English Wikipedia, but we don't need to translate common German names for things and people known by their German names. We have articles Schloss, Hochschule and Thomaskantor; Schloss is not a castle, Hochschule not a high school, and a Kantor is not a cantor. Better German than misunderstood because of a wrong or ambiguous translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

As long as the EKD officially translates its name to "Evangelical Church in Germany", that has to be the name for this article. Moreover, that translation is notably used by the World Council of Churches (see here) and has many more hits in Google than that proposed by Catflap08 (24,600 v. 12,900). Also Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau should be moved to "Evangelical Church in Hesse and Nassau" per consistency, despite its website.
Regarding Gerda Arendt's opinion on translations, I agree that some articles should keep the original language name (Schloss is a wonderful example and I would never want to move it to "Castle (Germany)" or something else), but names about organizations, especially when they are known in English literature and/or media by their English translations, should be in English. This is en.Wikipedia, indeed. --Checco (talk) 08:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC) "

Thanks for the response, but I think you contradict yourself saying here that "organizations, especially when they are known in English literature and/or media by their English translations, should be in English" and there that Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau should be moved, which is known by that name. You could have consistency as soon as you use the original names instead of consistency of the worse translation. Look at Schloss Moritzburg, another (easier) case where the Germans were not able to translate well, and compare to Schloss Weimar, using the shortest original name and explaining alternatives in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

In fact, despite the en.Wikipedia's article, the church is better known as "Evangelical Church in Hesse and Nassau" than "Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau" on Google, and also the WCC refers to it that way (see here). Moreover, the comparison with Schlösser is not particularly appropriate (there are exceptions: the very Moritzburg Castle, Neuschwanstein Castle and most of the Schlösser listed at Schloss—the translation is usually either castle or palace) and the inconsistency of the articles on Schlösser is not a good reason to be inconsistent here too. --Checco (talk) 13:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

By simply comparing google hits, we suffered a move from a Beethoven sonata's ordinary name to a nickname (reverted after endless discussion). The translation of Schloss to Castle is wrong misleading, therefore I believe it's better to say Schloss and rely on the article of that name to explain to those who don't know. I believe the same for Evangelisch, but will leave it for the next three years ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

A move to the German original would the best, or keep evangelic. Its seldom I dare to disagree with Gerda, but it does happen ;) As far as I understood the policy of the EKD to translate E into "evangelical" its a) traditional b) claiming the evangelium ;) c) similar as "catholic" means more than just a confession but all of the church, evangelic is - yes - evangelisch. Serten (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Checco on this - the EKD translate their own name to the Evangelical Church in Germany, it's the most widely-recognised 'direct' (or literal) translation from German to English, it just makes senses. I am aware of the German word Evangelische equating to Protestantism rather than Evangelicalism, but as long as that is explained in the article clearly, which it is in this case, it really shouldn't be an issue for readers' general understanding of the article. (Perhaps move the sentence "The German term evangelisch here more accurately corresponds to the broad English term Protestant rather than to the narrower evangelical" to the opening section as a compromise?)--Autospark (talk) 11:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Autospark. I have a similar issue with my draft about the Popular image of Native Americans in German speaking countries - the translation of "Indianer" in "native americans" is not appropriate, as Indianer covers much more than "plain(s) US" and I used a similar approach by adding an explanation in the entry. Serten (talk) 15:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I just contacted the EKD via e-mail. Even though they do translate their page with “Evangelical” in their English HP version I do still object. The negative or sectarian connotation that the term “evangelical” holds still exists. The proper translation of the German term “Evangelisch” corresponds to “Protestant” in English. The English term “Evangelical” would in German translate as “Evangelikal” … all in all the article’s title gives the average English reader a wrong lead. Even though some congregations regarded evangelical are members of the EKD one should keep in mind that it compromises most protestant churches within the FRG.--Catflap08 (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Catflap08, I would be cautious in assuming that the EKD doesn't use the name game without a reason. That said, lets as good Reformed ones be not more popish than the Bishop of Rome and keep the official name. Serten (talk) 02:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope wrong just received an email from the EKD they are well aware of the conflict, but will leave the matter as it is as to them come to a conclusion. Protestant and evangelical are not the same thing in the 21st century.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

They are exactly the same thing from a continental European point of view, they are not from an Anglo-Saxon one. By the way, this is not matter of discussion here: we are just discussing on which is the most correct, hence literal, translation of Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, which is clearly "Evangelical Church of Germany" (are we going to move also Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? no way). --Checco (talk) 07:21, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I cannot speak for „Continental Europe“, but the term “Evangelical” translates in its “negative” meaning to “evangelikal” in German. The term “evangelisch” corresponds to simply mainstream Protestantism. In the end it’s about where one would like the reader to be directed to ---- the EKD is not an umbrella organisation for fundamentalist evangelicals. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, please do not confuse terms and meanings. There are many churches which are "evangelical" by name but not by orientation, parties which are "liberal", "democratic", "social democratic", etc. but not by ideology, etc. --Checco (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

[@:Catflap08] Well, English speaking Lutherans do not agree with you. The largest Lutheran church in the United States is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. It seems that "Evangelical" is the standard translation in English. Yes, it may be confusing, but that is why there is an entire section dedicated to clarifying what "Evangelical" means in this context. Ltwin (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Good point! It is exactly what I have been trying to argue for a while. --Checco (talk) 08:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope not a good point made as the guideline of WP:COMMONNAME still is in use and a major reason why some articles are not renamed. I resist my case as at this point as the EKD translates its own homepage as “evnaglical”, but I am more than happy that due to my email contact I have made them YET AGAIN aware of the problem. Some people I know, and who are extremely active in the Protestant Church, agree full heartedly with me – but as the EKD does not correct the translation so may be it. The reference to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is somewhat misleading as the EKD does not only encompass Lutheran congregations but all mainstream protestant churches including some Baptist congregations that could truly be called “evangelikal” or as in English evangelical. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Au contraire, I'd like to see mainline Protestants take the term "evangelical" back, but this is another story—as yours. :) --Checco (talk) 08:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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• I'm treating this as a requested move discussion, as it has been discussed many times already (cf. here, or here, or even here) with no agreement on a move. This way maybe we won't have to do this all again unless someone has something different to contribute.

The argument for a move was that “Evangelical” does not accurately describe the doctrinal stance of this body; the argument against is that this is the name the body calls itself in English, and the term affiliates in English-speaking countries use.

From a WP point of view, the applicable policy is WP:COMMONNAME ie. the name most likely to be found in English language sources, or be searched for by English-speaking readers, or by which the subject would be (or should be) referred to in running text in other articles. In this case the common name, overwhelmingly, is "Evangelical Church in Germany", regardless of how appropriate anybody feels that might be.

An alternative proposal, to use the German name here, has also been discussed before; it is clear that such a move was not acceptable then, and that it has little or no support now.

I am archiving this discussion; if anyone in future feels the page title is wrong I suggest they open a Request move and make a case (preferably in accordance with policy), and resolve it that way. Otherwise I suggest the matter be closed. Moonraker12 (talk) 09:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Evangelisch vs Evangelical

A few months back I had an email exchange with the EKD on this article. They seem to be well aware of the fact that the expression “evangelical” (or in German “evangelikal”) does these days holds different implications. In common use however the German term “evangelisch” corresponds to “protestant” in English. The German term “evngelikal” corresponds to the common use of “evangelical” in English. That’s what it boils down to – only the official “seal” is missing, as the EKD itself translates the German term “evangelisch” to the English “evangelical” even though the common use says different. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I still don't see any problem about it and I don't see why the official translation should change. There are many non-evangelical churches having "Evangelical" in their names, notably including the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. --Checco (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

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Move to Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany reverted

User:Po Mieczu moved the page name, adding "Lutheran" in to the title. Obviously, this would cause problems because the church is actually a federation of Lutheran, Reformed and United regional churches. Please see the above discussions on the name, and discuss any future naming proposals on the talk page first. Ltwin (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

User talk:Ltwin I have seen the discussion. In English usage "evangelical", as others have pointed out, is not a translation of the German "evangelisch". In English it literally means following the Gospels and applies to Protestant churches, as opposed to Catholic or Orthodox denominations. It commonly refers to the more "fundamentalist" side of Anglicanism. To misuse an English adjective as a nominative for a foreign group of churches just because it sounds similar is really not helpful or accurate in an encyclopaedia. You might consider altering the title simply to "Protestant" for that is the actual translation of "evangelisch". --Po Mieczu (talk) 17:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

User:Po Mieczu, this has been fully discussed before (check out the archives on the right side of the screen). Of course, we can always discuss it again, and see if consensus changes. However, as I said above, the name should not be "Lutheran" as the church is not simply a Lutheran church. But, here is food for thought, in English speaking countries, Lutheran churches are often called "Evangelical"—Evangelical Lutheran Church in America being an example. So, while it may be confusing, the reality is that in the English speaking world there are two uses for the term "evangelical", but it just so happens that the meaning of Evangelicalism is what most people think of rather than the more broad meaning of "Protestant." Ltwin (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with Ltwin, who subscribed to my long-held position (see aforementioned threads). --Checco (talk) 08:39, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting that move. The discussion about "Evangelical" or not will continue in all eternity, but "Lutheran" is just plain wrong here. There's absolutely nothing to discuss about that. --91.34.40.110 (talk) 07:22, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Strange sentence

"The Church Office is the administration of the EKD and shall the business of the Synod, Council and Conference of the EKD."

Something surely must be missing here -- presumably the verb. What was it meant to be?

Also, I'd like to know why all these words are capitalized. Is something like "Church Office" really to be considered a proper name in English? --91.34.40.110 (talk) 07:33, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

United (Prussian Union)

The article says "United (Prussian Union)" churches. Thats not correct in that way. United protestant churches in Germany (Unierte Landeskirchen) are mergers of lutheran and reformed churches, but not all of them were parts of "Prussian Union". Many of them have their origins in Prussian Union of 1817, but others not: f.e. "Evang. Kirche der Pfalz" and "Ev. Kirche Landeskirche in Baden" were united in german states which weren't part of Prussia. And there are different kinds of United Churches. Most of them are an administration merger and their parishes and ministers can chose if they want to use lutheran, reformed or united religious confession (of course most chose united one). But f.e. Palatinian church is a genuine merger whith only united confession. (of course some parishes and ministers have either more lutheran or reformed elements but there's no official difference). Of course all United Chuches in Germany (UEK) are members of EKD. ManfredV (talk) 13:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Official English name

@K1812: Do you have a good source for the EKD having changed the official English translation of its name to Protestant Church in Germany? Given the difference in meaning between the German word Evangelishe and the English Evangelical, I can see why the EKD would make this change. However, given that the name Evanglical Church in Germany has been used for so long in English, the old translation needs to be included at least in the article text.

Of course, this brings up the whole question of what the name of this article should be, but that's a question for a later date. Indyguy (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello, the name change has been published on the English version of their web site Protestant Church in Germany. I don't agree that the former name Evangelical Church in Germany should be mentioned prominently, as it was a blunt mistranslation and the word evangelical is misleading in this Church's context. K1812 (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it was misleading, but the fact remains that the former name was widely used and familiar to English speakers. That's why the former English name needs to be included in the article text - especially since it is the actual name of the article.

Is there a press release from the EKD announcing the change that can be cited in the article? Indyguy (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I have asked for the article to be moved. I didn't find a press release about the name change. K1812 (talk) 17:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

It is not actually a misstranslation, but an old translation. It is the english word evangelical that changed its meaning. Evangelical in english used to mean the same as the german Evangelische, that is: the name protestants chose for themselves. This can still be seen in the english names of lutheran denominations (ELCA for exemple). However, when in english the term evangelical started to be associated with the Evangelical Movement, then the germans conceived the term Evangelikal for that movement in order to differentiate from the original term. Barumbarumba (talk) 20:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 25 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. While slightly more editors opposed moving than supported it, consensus is not determined by counting !votes but by assessing arguments through the lens of policy.

Editors in opposition argued that the name was less recognizable, that "evangelical" was a less accurate translation, and that the name has changed and the common name would soon follow.

Of these, I was only able to give full weight to the first argument, but I was forced to give the others less weight as when translating we follow the sources, and we base our titles on the current common name, not the future common name.

Editors in support argued that this is in the common name, an argument that I gave full weight; as such, I saw a rough consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Protestant Church in Germany → Evangelical Church in Germany – Both terms (in English) are used by the EKD itself, but Evangelical is the more common, more accurate term. Etymologically, evangelical/evangelische refers to the gospel (εὐαγγέλιον), while Protestant refers to the Protestation at Speyer. It is not true that "Evangelical" is the former name (see EKD en homepage), and it is also untrue that the term "Evangelical" strictly or primarily refers to the Evangelical/Mainline divide among American denominations. The onus must be on those preferring "Protestant" to demonstrate such a shift in meaning, and I do not feel that prior discussion participants have succeeded. If we are worried that the reader would make this false association, it could easily be cleared up in the body of the article.

Survey of use: Ngram, World Council of Churches, Britannica. The lead could read, for example: "the Evangelical Church in Germany, (also called the Protestant Church in Germany)" Dirkwillems (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Supportper nom, and anecdotally, most monographs I've read on Protestantism in Europe written in the last few decades have also used this formulation. Garnet Moss (talk) 20:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Also, the literal translation suits better. --Checco (talk) 05:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support It is the original meaning of the word "evangelical" that later changed meaning in english, but outside the english speaking word evangelical still refers to protestants at large. Even in english we still see remnants of this: like the name of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America -Barumbarumba (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland changed its English name from Evangelical Church in Germany to Protestant Church in Germany one or two years ago. The reason why the name Evangelical Church in Germany still can be found in some instances on their web site is probably that they are lazy and haven't implemented the name change across the entire web site yet. English isn't a living language for many Germans and many of them aren't capable of writing correct English. Google Ngram stats are irrelevant in this case - just because many have mistranslated the German name to English doesn't make the erroneous translation right. Britannica and the World Council of Churches probably haven't yet noticed that the EKD has changed its English name and are therefore not authoritative. The correct English translation of the German word evangelisch is protestant and not evangelical - please check with any German-English dictionary. While the English word evangelical might sound more similar to the German word evangelisch than the English word protestant, translating to the most similarly sounding word is not always correct. --K1812 (talk) 10:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  @K1812 Do you have a citation for the name change? Dirkwillems (talk) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't seen an explicit announcement of the change, but can only refer to their web site. They have a news section on their homepage. If you load older news, you will see that they start calling themselves Protestant Church in Germany in May 2022. In older news, they call themselves Evangelical Church in Germany. On their home page, they have a section called "Protestants in Germany". At the bottom of that section, there is a link to EKD. If you follow that link, the new page shows that they call themselves the Protestant Church in Germany. Further down on that page, they offer a pdf document called "The Protestant Church in Germany". You can use the Internet Archive to see how that web page changed over time:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210415000000*/https://www.ekd.de/en/EKD-98.htm

If you look at the version of e.g. May 19, 2001, you can see that at the time, they called themselves the Evangelical Church in Germany and that the pdf document they offered also was called The Evangelical Church in Germany. --K1812 (talk) 15:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@K1812 You are right to point out the frequency that "protestant" is used, but that does not indicate that "evangelical" is a former name, since both names are present on their current website. We would need to see that expressly stated, and we can't assume laziness. Dirkwillems (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's realistic to expect a Church, which has mistranslated its German name to English for decades, to make a public announcement that they have now finally managed to translate their name correctly. K1812 (talk) 18:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@K1812 you are presupposing that evangelical is a mistranslation Dirkwillems (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

To me, evangelical is an adjective that is used to describe Evangelicalism. Evangelicalism, however, is just a subset of Protestantism. From what i understand, a substantial part of the members of the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland don't adhere to Evangelicalism. They adhere to Protestantism, but not to Evangelicalism. Therefore, i find it would be wrong to translate the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland to the Evangelical Church in Germany. Such a translation would suggest that all its members would adhere to Evangelicalism, which actually isn't the case. K1812 (talk) 23:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Reformed Christianity, WikiProject Germany, WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, and WikiProject Lutheranism have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support as almost all encounters with the subject in academic settings defers to "Evangelical". It also helps disambiguate against someone looking for Protestantism in Germany more generally. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Further up on this page you see in several discussions that "evangelical" - while not exactly a mistranslation - is ambiguous and too easily misunderstood as evangelicalism. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Whether accurate or not, this is how it is known. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  You state that "this is how it is known". Can you present any evidence that supports your assessment? A Google search for "Evangelical Church in Germany" renders ~ 113,000 results whereas a Google search for "Protestant Church in Germany" finds ~ 161,000 results. The name "Protestant Church in Germany" seems to be more commonly used than "Evangelical Church in Germany". K1812 (talk) 17:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, too easy to confuse them with evangelical churches otherwise, and it is their official translation. If you want to preserve "EKD", just use Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland. —Kusma (talk) 16:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Kusma what is their official translation? Dirkwillems (talk) 18:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Dirkwillems, currently Protestant Church in Germany. —Kusma (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Kusma citation? Dirkwillems (talk) 00:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose – The German term "evangelisch" differs significantly from the English meaning of "evangelical", which is presumably why the church currently uses the term "Protestant". The brief etymology provided by the nominator does not accurately reflect this. I would have to see exceptionally strong evidence to convince me that we should override common sense, accurate translation, and the church's own usage with this page move. The evidence presented thus far does not convince me.

Aside from this logical explanation, I can nitpick the sources provided by the nominator: 1. The Ngrams graph does not show a big enough difference to convince me that we should override the logical, accurate current title. 2. The WCC website, as K1812 pointed out above, is probably behind on updating their name to "Protestant" and should be given much less weight than the organization itself; it is not an independent RS, either. 3. Britannica is a tertiary source; this doesn't mean it's completely unusable, but it's also not especially reliable or scholarly. I give this, too, little weight. Toadspike [Talk] 02:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments such as the literal translation suits better and Whether accurate or not... disregard some fairly important facts here. I hope the closer weights them appropriately. Toadspike [Talk] 02:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Toadspike I would really like you to prove your two main points; that the term evangelical is an inappropriate translation and that the EKD has changed its English name. I discussed both of these already.

I also feel that you are shifting the burden. Even though I'm proposing a change, the change I'm suggesting is a restoration of the longstanding common name. I feel that you need to show that evangelical always or usually gives a false impression, one so strong that it can't be cleared up in the body, and that the church has indeed changed its name. Dirkwillems (talk) 12:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dirkwillems Kusma already showed that the church has indeed changed its name above [1]. I found the same link independently. On the English version of the EKD's website, that is the page about the EKD itself (like an "About" page). I don't understand why you asked Kusma for a "citation?" after he posted a link, nor why you then asked me the same thing. Please remember to listen.

As for the technical accuracy of calling the EKD "evangelical", the fact that at least two native German speakers (Kusma and myself) pointed out this issue is concerning. Evangelicalism, especially in the US, has a number of tenets and connotations that are very far from the EKD. I'm not a theological expert, but that article's second sentence is a clear example of these differences: ...[Evangelicalism] emphasizes the centrality of sharing the "good news" of Christianity, being "born again" in which an individual experiences personal conversion. This clearly describes American Evangelicalism, but does not apply to the EKD. Scroll down to the Terminology section and you will see this explained in great detail. The most relevant part is The German term evangelisch more accurately corresponds to the broad English term Protestant.

You can also look at Wiktionary, where evangelical and evangelisch have very different definitions. The usage notes at evangelical highlight the major difference between the original meaning of "evangelical" (which is also its meaning in German) and the modern English usage (which refers to the specific movement of evangelicalism). Toadspike [Talk] 12:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Toadspike As discussed, the use of the name does not constitute a change when both are to be found in church material. A name change has not been shown, so I continue to ask because there could still be one I've missed.

As a native English speaker, I can report that "evangelical" does not necessarily imply "evangelicalism." You can see on the Wiktionary listing that this is the fourth sense, under the third meaning as interchangeable with protestant. I agree that EKD is not to be associated with evangelicalism, you are right to point out the disconnect, but that connection simply isn't implied with the titular term Evangelical. At least, not necessarily (see the ELCA, the largest Lutheran denomination in the US, also where Evangelicalism is the strongest).

I strongly feel that it is inappropriate for us to editorialize the name of this church over and against the common name for fear of political associations. That's why I propose this change, but at the least I would accept revising the lead to say "Protestant Church in Germany (also called the Evangelical Church in Germany)", because it cannot be shown that this is a former name. Even if the continued use of the name "Evangelical Church" is an oversight, it is still known by this name. Dirkwillems (talk) 13:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You want a name change? Here, have a name change. EKD website, 2019 reads "Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD)". On 14 June 2022, that same page reads "Protestant Church in Germany", with the German name in much smaller text below. The previous archive from 19 May 2022 still shows the old name.

I could not find a press release covering this, but the Internet Archive makes pretty clear that they changed their website somewhere between these two dates. Toadspike [Talk] 15:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Toadspike You will notice that the 2022 page you shared uses both English names, like I've been saying all along. I do not feel that you're engaging with my point. Dirkwillems (talk) 18:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose evangelical means something else in english—blindlynx 22:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

That makes no sense. There are several denominations, also American ones, that are named "Evangelical", but are not "evangelical" in the American sense. Just think of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Furthermore, also other European denominations, including EKD's counterparts (like the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland) and more liberal and non-evangelical denominations (like the Waldensian Evangelical Church), have "Evangelical" in their name. --Checco (talk) 06:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The majority of English-language sources favour the more direct translation. Zacwill (talk) 18:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. A) Ignoring common name for a moment, "Protestant" is really the most accurate translation here. It's a coalition of Protestant churches. "Evangelical" is fine but isn't a 100% match to either the modern implications or the classical ones. B ) The organization having a preferred translation should be given at least some deference. Yeah, yeah, OFFICIALNAME and all, but it's a solid tie-breaker if nothing else. C) Academic sources often using "Evangelical" are often talking more to a readership that knows the German context and the German implications of the word. That isn't quite the case on Wikipedia, for a general audience. SnowFire (talk) 17:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose on the basis that the church changed the English translation in documents they control, and that it is expected that the name change is not publiclized, as this has not changed the German name. Techie3 (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
• Comment (already !voted above). User:Checco writes that the different meaning in English "makes no sense". To be clear, this is a fairly late-breaking change, and a weird one. See this June 2024 Washington Post article - if you don't have a subscription, a quote is "In one survey of Christian attitudes, for example, 43 percent of evangelicals said they did not believe in the divinity of Christ. But it gets even more bizarre. According to the 2022 Cooperative Election Study, 14 percent of Muslims (and 12 percent of Hindus and 5 percent of Jews) described themselves as 'born-again' or evangelical Christians. This is not a joke." For better or for worse, "evangelical" means something else in English in the past decade or so. It isn't even necessarily associated with being a Christian exactly per above. SnowFire (talk) 00:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

  @SnowFire All this quotation serves to show is that there is a sense of the word evangelical that doesn't match what is meant by the historic name of this church. Nobody contests this. It doesn't show that evangelical is an inaccurate or even a less preferable translation in this instance.

  In my opinion, your argument "makes no sense" because it's based on a false fact - that evangelical cannot be an appropriate translation of evangelische. Dirkwillems (talk) 12:23, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the name with "Evangelical" would be more common historically, because it is the old name. The group's website currently uses "Protestant" in its English name, presumably because of the changing implications of the word "Evangelical" in English-speaking countries over the past decades. News sites such as al-Jazeera also use it. Walsh90210 (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

EKD

I tried to fix the article, to give more prominence to Protestant but it was reverted, and now reads again "also known as Protestant ...". No. Not yet. It would be good if it became known as Protestant, as the organization now boldly declares: please look. The article says correctly that it is an organization of churches of German Protestantism, not of Evangelicalism. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

These topics were covered in the move discussion. There is already a "Name" section of the article you may like to revisit, if you think the issue is unclear to a reader. "Evangelical" does not necessarily imply Evangelicalism the movement, and the two names are clearly both by the organization even on the link you just shared. Your edit was changed because it referred to just one of these names as official. Dirkwillems (talk) 13:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)