Talk:Provincial council (Netherlands)

Name

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

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States-Provincial → Provincial States – The term States-Provincial doesn't seem to be the proper translation. I've checked all twelve provinces' websites, and the translation of Provinciale Staten differs per province. Friesland, Groningen, Limburg, North Brabant, North Holland, Overijssel, Utrecht and Zeeland speak of a Provincial Council, while Drenthe and Gelderland refer to it as the Provincial States. (Neither Flevoland nor South Holland mention their legislatives in their English sites.) It is obvious, though, that the current name of the article is incorrect, so it should be changed to either of these. My vote would go to Provincial States, because it's a more accurate translation. --Relisted. ^walk victor falk ^talk 01:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)--Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC) --(Luxorr (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2014 (UTC))

The term States-Provincial possibly is a calque of the French États provinciaux (see also States Provincial (France)) formulated when French was more the dominant language of Europe. Note that "provincial states" can also refer to the states of India that descended from the British Raj provinces before the linguistic reorganisation of India. —  AjaxSmack  23:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment the generic term provincial states can also be used to refer to countries that are "provincial"; per Ajax Smack, perhaps this should all be a dismabiguation page instead. -- 65.94.171.206 (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Also note that States Provincial (without the hyphen) already is a DAB page. —  AjaxSmack  01:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Alright, fair enough. So it should be Provincial States (Netherlands) then? (Luxorr (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2014 (UTC))
  • There is no official name for the provincial councils of the Netherlands (either in the past or present), since English is not an official language here. So Luxorr is exaggerating a little when saying that the 'current name of the article is incorrect'. The editors of the provincial web sites will make up a term which they think is appropriate.
    I am not a native speaker of the English language, but I have the impression that a French word order is kept in English more often than in Dutch, so the present name does not sound unnatural. Also it makes sense to use the same name (in the English Wikipedia) for the Dutch as well as the French institutions. If it is chosen to keep the word order as it is, the use of the hyphen should also be more consistent. It is a little odd to see the hyphen here but not in States Provincial (France). Perhaps the hyphen is a good indicator of the alternative word order, like in President-elect.
    After renaming this page to whatever (States Provincial (Netherlands), with or without the hyphen, or Provincial States in the Netherlands, or even Provincial Councils in the Netherlands), the present name States-Provincial should become a redirect to the existing disambiguation page States Provincial, or the other way around. At present, Provincial States is a redirect to Provinces of the Netherlands, which is not correct either.
    By the way, an omission in this article are the States-Provincial of the seven United Provinces (before 1798), which were much more powerful than their modern counterparts. Bever (talk) 07:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree there's no uniform official translation, but I think we should at least use a translation used by an official website, rather than making one up on our own. (Luxorr (talk) 13:49, 18 May 2014 (UTC))

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ^walk victor falk ^talk 13:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

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• Suggest Provinciale Staten as the actual Dutch term. While many foreign terms are translated into English for the sake of the English encyclopedia, "Provincial States" is ambiguous with an actual English phrase, and the term seems unnatural and awkward (as the name of a legislature) to the native English-speaking ear. If the current title is inaccurate, use the term as it appears in its native language. Xoloz (talk) 16:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose If this article's title was problematic, Xoloz's suggestion of Provinciale Staten would be an excellent alternative; the clear and closest analogy here is the use in the English language of the indigeneous names for the national parliaments of neighbouring or well-known countries: Knesset, Duma, Bundestag, Reichstag, Riksdag, Storting, Folketing, Allthing. , and some references that it is used so by wp:rs & wp:v English-language sources to pass muster with wp:ue.

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If the article's title was problematic. If. The nominator's rationale is flawed, and based upon that it is not a proper translation; but it is not meant to be a proper translation. "States-Provincial" is a linguistic calque in English of the French "États-Généraux" which is calqued as "Estates General", "States General" or "Estates-General", "States-General" (because hyphenation rules are different in French and English), and not "General States", which would be the proper translation. Check those articles and associated dab pages and redirects. Changing the name would also break consistency with States-General and States-General of the Netherlands, which would be against wp:criteria #5. ^walk victor falk ^talk 20:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• My rationale is not that the translation is incorrect but rather that it is unofficial. Whether it is a correct translation or not, I don't think we should use a term we made up ourselves. The term States-Provincial hasn't been used by any official source, any media, or anywhere else outside of Wikipedia, as opposed to Provincial States and Provincial Council. Naming the article Provinciale Staten, as suggested, would be an excellent solution too, I agree. (Luxorr (talk) 10:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC))

• Wikipedia doesn't care for official names. ^walk victor falk ^talk 14:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• The linked policy states "Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." The term States-Provincial is not consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources. (Luxorr (talk) 20:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC))

Could you then tell us what reliable English-language sources use? ^walk victor falk ^talk 22:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

In addition to the provinces' websites stated above, Provincial Council ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]), Provincial States ([12], [13], [14]), Provincial Assembly ([15]) and Provincial Legislature ([16]). Luxorr (talk) 06:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The national government website says also 'provincial councils', though not pretending that this is a 'name', it is more like a description without bothering the English readers with the official name. Bever (talk) 01:55, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Search string	Gbooks	Gscholar
"the states-provincial are"|"the states-provincial were"|"the states-provincial have"|"the states-provincial had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"	23	8
"the provinciale staten are"|"the provinciale staten were"|"the provinciale staten have"|"the provinciale staten had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"	8	1
"the provincial states of the netherlands are"|"the provincial states of the netherlands were"|"the provincial states of the netherlands have"|"the provincial states of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"	0	0
"the provincial councils of the netherlands are"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands were"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands have"|"the provincial councils of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"	0	0
"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands are"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands were"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands have"|"the provincial assemblies of the netherlands had" -wikipedia -"Books, LLC"	0	0

First it was claimed that States-Provincial are an incorrect translation, and I explained how as a calque it is perfectly proper English. Then it was said it was an unofficial translation, which has no relevance for wikipedia's titling decisions. Finally it was argued it was an unused translation, which I have just falsified.

It's time time to say, "I rest my case."

As a side note, I find that this RM has interesting parallels with Talk:Storting#Requested_move, where some were bothered with the usage of "the Storting is..." in English sentences, because of the lack of the definite suffix -et.

In the same way, while Dutch and English are Adjective-Noun languages, French is a Noun-Adjective one. So it's a perfectly reasonable expectation to assume a translation from Dutch to English to also be A-N, except that in this case English has been corrupted by French influences.

As they say, "Other languages loan words. English lays in wait in dark back-alleys to club them down and rifle their pockets for spare vocabulary." It is futile to resist this unholy assimilation of Dutch and French into English. ^walk victor falk ^talk 18:39, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I wanted this article moved in the belief that the term was found nowhere outside of Wikipedia, but you've proven me wrong, so I will rest my case, as you suggested. I would, however, like to point out that the results of your Google searches are debatable. Since you've added "of the Netherlands" to the terms provincial states, provincial councils and provincial assemblies, it's obvious the search results in nothing; add "of the Netherlands" to States-General ([17]) and you will find zero results there as well. And since you didn't, half the search results concern the provincial legislatures of medieval France, rather than those of the Netherlands. Luxorr (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

The point is to show the usage of the different title alternatives, States-General, Provinciale Staten, Provincial States of the Netherlands, Provincial Councils of the Netherlands, Provincial Assemblies of the Netherlands. ^walk victor falk ^talk 20:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 12:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

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• States-provincial → Provincial council (Netherlands)
• Provincial-executive → Provincial executive
• States of Drenthe → Provincial Council of Drenthe
• States of Flevoland → Provincial Council of Flevoland
• States of Friesland → Provincial Council of Friesland
• States of Gelderland → Provincial Council of Gelderland
• States of Groningen → Provincial Council of Groningen
• States of Limburg → Provincial Council of Limburg
• States of North Brabant → Provincial Council of North Brabant
• States of North Holland → Provincial Council of North Holland
• States of Overijssel → Provincial Council of Overijssel
• States of South Holland → Provincial Council of South Holland
• States of Utrecht → Provincial Council of Utrecht
• States of Zeeland → Provincial Council of Zeeland

– The correct English translations of Provinciale Staten and Gedeputeerde Staten as used on the websites of the Dutch national and provincial governments are "provincial council" (Government.nl, Groningen, North Brabant, North Holland, South Holland, Utrecht) and "provincial executive" (Government.nl, Groningen, North Brabant, North Holland, South Holland, Utrecht). This is analogous to the use of "municipal council" and "municipal executive" for municipal governments in the Netherlands. In my opinion, the terms "States Provincial" and "States of XX" can still be used as synonyms within the articles, even though their use in English texts outside of Wikipedia is limited. ― Ætoms ^[talk] 00:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Heart ^(talk) 13:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Support - We ought to use the terminology as used by the bodies as it's available. Agree that is not clear if these terms are used outside of Wikipedia and we should not spread misinformation about the name of the bodies. ― Thunderstorm008 (talk · contributions) 19:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.