Talk:Provisional Government of Lithuania

Merger

How long was the "underground government" underground? If it was a substantial period of time, like since 1940, maybe it should stay separate? Are they really the same thing? Btw, if merging, please keep the redirect and the page history. heqs 10:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was secretely formed on 22 April, 1941, publicly announced on 23 June, 1941, and dissolved on 5 August, 1941. It is the same thing, I don't think we need two articles on an organization that only lived less than 4 months, especially that it was inactive while in underground. Sigitas 11:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The LAF was formed in 1940 though, and that article says the underground government was formed in March (?) heqs 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

LAF is not the same as Laikinoji vyriausybe (Provisional Government) and rightly has its own wikipedia article. As for LAF forming underground government in March, it is incorrect - article Lietuvos laikinosios vyriausybės atsiradimo aplinkybės referenced at the end of LAF article clearly says "1941 m. balandžio 22 d., Kaune Vilniaus ir Kauno centro atstovai suformavo Lietuvos laikinąją vyriausybę, t.y. sudarė jos narių sąrašą." ("On 22 April, 1941. in Kaunas representatives of Vilnius and Kaunas branches (of LAF) formed Lithuanian provisional government, i.e. established list of it members"). Thus statement on forming government in March is incorrect and not found in referenced sources. Sigitas 12:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I already fixed date of forming government by LAF providing reference. Sigitas 12:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the government not secret to the Germans? AFAIR it was formed of a group that was originally formed in Berlin under the auspices of the Abwehr, so it was not that clandestine... //Halibutt 15:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. Germans did not want indepentend Lithuania, therefore SD and Gestapo shared their information on Lithuanian underground with NKVD, and some underground members were arrested by NKVD for this reason. Germans did not know about formation of this government, otherwise members of cabinet would be quickly arrested. Halibutt, you probably talk about another provisional government, which K.Škirpa, not trusting abilities of resistance in Lithuania, laid out on paper and this government included only people residing in Germany. Germans did not know about alternative provisional government either. This alternative government never acted in reality. same source: * 1941 m. Lietuvos laikinosios vyriausybės atsiradimo aplinkybės, Doc. dr. Sigitas Jegelevičius, Voruta, No. 11 (557), June 11, 2004

Sigitas 16:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Merger is done. Renata 00:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Move

What are your thoughts on a move to Provisional Government of Lithuania (1941), to avoid any confusion with other events in Lithuania's history (in 20th century)? heqs 15:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

let's move. Sigitas 15:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Good grief. I just moved the talk page to that name by accident. heqs 18:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

D'oh. Now we need an admin to do the proper move. Sorry... =/ heqs 18:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Why move? Was there any other Provisional Government of Lithuania?? As far as I know, there is nothing to disambiguate. Renata 02:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

From History of Lithuania (1990) ..."The Supreme Council of Lithuania also appointed leaders of the state and adopted the Provisional Fundamental Law (temporary constitution)..." Wasn't the first government under Landsbergis a provisional government? heqs 03:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It was not a provisional gov. Lithuania was ruled by the Supreme Council, legally elected. The council decided to change things around, i.e. declare independence and they could not do any longer with the old soviet constitution and adopted a temporary one.

The evolution of various governing bodies goes like this: Council of Lithuania (Lietuvos Taryba) -> Constituent Assembly of Lithuania -> regular Seimas & President (1922-1940) -> occupation -> Provisional Gov (1941) -> occupation -> Supreme Council & First Secretary -> Reconstituent Seimas (1990-1992) -> regular Seimas & President since 1992. [1] Renata 17:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I cancelled the move request. I should wait for more discussion before doing such moves in the future. heqs 19:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Wknight94 has fixed the bunk move. Thanks! heqs 01:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Nazi collaborators?

Can this government be described as Nazi collaborators? Was it ever accused of that? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, they welcomed the Europe organisation on the new bases, "national and social" (23 June 1941)... and were based in Germany and helped Wehrmacht. Of course, official Lithuanan propaganda TODAY portrays them as innocent liberty fighters who were not nazi supporters. Not everyone in the world agrees to this. 95.55.125.89 (talk) 09:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Contemporary historiography consider them not only Nazi collaborators, but even inspirers, if not perpetrators, of the Holocaust. The movement they were based on (LAF) certainly was involved in mass-scale murder. The conclusion of the US Congress referred to in the article dates back to 1973, a Cold War-era time in which the US itself was often trying to obfuscate the history of collaboration of their allies. It should not be considered as reliable: too old, and too politicized.The reference to the "unambiguous conclusions" should therefore be removed, as they make almost no sense after 45 years of historical research. 78.61.171.169 (talk)

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@Cukrakalnis could you quote the exact text of the source that supports this edit: [2]. Because I checked it and found nothing there that supports the content you proposed. The only passage that would refer to the attitude of the provisional government to the genocide of the Jews reads: Although the Lithuanian provisional government (formed at the start of the war) did not encourage brutal actions, under pressure from local observers the captured Jews were killed by Lithuanian partisans and criminals in the streets of Kaunas and the marketplaces of small settlements (p. 254). There is no mention of communists or members of the NKVD.

Moreover, why do you attribute this opinion to Yad Vashem, when it is voiced by Vygantas Vereikis in an article that was simply part of a publication issued by YV? This is in no way the official position of YV. Marcelus (talk) 18:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

You clearly didn't read attentively. On page 255, it says Death was allotted only to high ranking communist officials and members of the Soviet security police (NKVD). Just above Under German occupation. I combined the sentence I quote here and the sentence you noticed already into the new sentence.

The very reason I clicked on the source in google books or something like that in the first place was because it clearly said Yad Vashem and I didn't initially even see Vygantas Vareikis' name. It was only after looking more closely at the source that I saw his name, but I left it at Yad Vashem because that's what I saw first. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:49, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus If you want, I can remove the mention of Yad Vashem and replace it with the historian himself, as a sign of good will. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Don't do that 'as a sign of good will', but as a sign of proper editing, because right now you are wrongly attributing certain opinions. Also you shouldn't be using sources you have no full access to; you don't know the full context of the cited sentence.

You clearly didn't read attentively. On page 255, it says Death was allotted only to high ranking communist officials and members of the Soviet security police (NKVD).: this isn't about provisional government but about LAF. So it shouldn't be attritbuted the way you did it. Marcelus (talk) 21:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Don't lecture me about things that you don't know. I do know the full context of the cited sentence, because I can read the pages leading up to it. Do you seriously want me to quote entire pages on the talk page?

The LAF leaders literally were the Provisional Government, your objection is absurd. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not lecturing you on anything, writing non-misleading content isn't "a good will", but following the rules and guidelines. And most LAF leaders didn't join the provisional government, and there is a reason why the author used this not the other wording. Please correct it. Marcelus (talk) 22:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

You clearly are lecturing me about what to write even if you clearly have no clue about the subject matter. It says in the very first part of the article: It was formed from the members of the Lithuanian Activist Front (LAF) in Kaunas and Vilnius. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:17, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Let me repeat once again: provisional government and Lithuanian Activist Front are two different bodies. Please follow the source and correct the text. Marcelus (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

LAF leaders = ProGov of LT (grosso modo). The mention about LAF leaders can also be understood to refer to also after Barbarossa had already started, even if it also refers to what the Lithuanians wrote before it happened. Meaning that it would also include what the ProGov thought. I am following the source and the text is already correct. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The LAF operated in German territory. Provisional government on the territory of occupied Lithuania. Most of the LAF leadership was not part of the government. The author of the source clearly distinguishes between the two institutions, I ask that you do so as well, because otherwise we are dealing with WP:OR. Marcelus (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

LAF operated also on the territory of occupied Lithuania. You not knowing such a basic fact discredits your opinion on this. Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:58, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

So are you refusing to follow sources? Marcelus (talk) 18:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

You are the one refusing to follow sources because you don't even have a clue about the organisations being addressed and what even their location of functioning was. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis, you are attributing features A to organisation X, when the sources says it about organisation Y. Please try to reword the sentence because it looks now very bad. And please remove any mention of Yad Vashem from the article text. Marcelus (talk) 21:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

LAF created the Provisional Government of Lithuania. The views of the former are essentially the same as of the latter (because of the overlap of the individuals in it). You really are trying to split things that are inseparably connected. Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it is reasonable to write, according to the source, which things are attributed to the LAF and which to the government. As I said before the overlap wasn't total, and the institution had different character.

From reading the source, it appears that the notices to kill communists were issued by the LAF, but not by the interim government. We need to follow sources strictly. Marcelus (talk) 21:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully you're happy with this change [3]. Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

My proposition is to replace:

In a Yad Vashem publication, Vygantas Vareikis [lt] writes that the Lithuanian Provisional Government "did not encourage brutal actions" against Jews and the LAF leaders as well as the local press proposed that only high-ranking Communist officials and members of the NKVD should be punished by death.

with:

According to Vygantas Vareikis, LAF leaders called for the isolation or removal of Jews from Lithuania, taking away their property, returning it to the Lithuanian people. They combined anti-Semitic and anti-Soviet themes in their propaganda. However, they did not advocate the physical liquidation of Jews, reserving the death only for members of the NKVD and high-ranked Communist officials. Similarly, the Provisional Government did not encourage brutal actions, yet there were massacres of the Jewish population under pressure from local observers. Marcelus (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I also think that publisher is irrelevant in this context. We don't usually add infor about publishers in the text. Marcelus (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

unsourced text removed from article

"It is of course difficult to estimate the exact number of casualties of the Holocaust and the latter number cannot be final or indisputable." We are already presenting these numbers in a range Elinruby (talk) 08:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

proposed bibliography items

Saulius Sužiedelis (2001). "The Burden of 1941". Lituanus. 47 (4): 47–60. Saulius Sužiedelis (Summer 1998). "Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part I". Vilnius: 129–146. Saulius Sužiedelis (Summer 1999). "Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part II". Vilnius: 177–208.

uncited

I did find sources for some of the names, but just snippets in obscure books. No inherent objection to this if it were sourced, but I have tried reasonably hard. The day before Germany declared war on the Soviet Union, the Soviets arrested four members of the planned Lithuanian government, Vladas Nasevičius, Vytautas Statkus, Jonas Masiliūnas, and Jonas Vainauskas, in Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod). The trial started 26 November 1941, after the uprising had ended, but while Lithuania was still occupied by Germany. Sentences were pronounced on 28 November: Bulvičius was put to death, while Masiliūnas, Nasevičius, and Statkus were deported to Siberia.

References