Talk:Prussia

Problematic lead

I think it is wrong to refer to Prussia as a state with a continuous existence from 1525 to the 20th century. I think would be better to introduce "Prussia" as a name that was carried by a series of historically related German states. The Duchy of Prussia ceased to be a state after 1618 when its territory fell under the jurisdiction of the Electors of Brandenburg. The Duchy's territory continued to carry the Prussian name, and the Electors of Brandenburg rebranded their state as Prussia in 1701, but this was by no means the same state as the earlier duchy, whose territory was now part of a quite different state, the Kingdom of Prussia.

The Kingdom of Prussia, in turn, formed the nucleus for the new nation-state of Germany after 1871, but Prussia ceased to be a sovereign state after 1871 and instead formed an admittedly dominant part of the larger state of Germany.

To avoid confusion, I would suggest making this kind of an index article for the different entities that have carried the name of Prussia. The most important of these, of course, would be the Kingdom of Prussia. Marco polo (talk) 22:43, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

I should clarify what I mean by "index article". What I am suggesting is a historical discussion of the various entities (states, historical regions, administrative divisions) that have been called Prussia, with links to articles on each of those entities. If no one has responded to my suggestion within a week or so, or if I get a positive response, I may try reworking the article along the lines I have suggested. Marco polo (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The article already provides links to the relevant main articles. "Prussia" is not just "a name that was carried by a series of historically related German states" - just like Bavaria is not a name carried by historically related states. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:28, 5 January 2020 (UTC)'

Bavaria is a different case, because Bavaria has had a stable historical core around Munich. The state and its elites have had a historical continuity across history. That said, I do think Bavaria should have a similar treatment to Prussia. There should be a lead article, titled "Bavaria" that would offer a summary of the history and introduce readers to the different entities (the Bavarian tribe, the regions of Ober- and Unterbayern, the independent state (duchy–electorate–kingdom) that emerged from the Holy Roman Empire, the Bundesstaat in unified Germany 1871–1946, and the post–1946 Bundesstaat, after the loss of the Palatinate). Prussia is even less coherent as a geographical or historical entity than Bavaria because of the discontinuity when the duchy came under the control of the Hohenzollern. There was little continuity of state structures or elites when the capital shifted from Königsberg to Berlin. Yes, the old Prussian elite retained some regional importance, but they did not dominate the Hohenzollern state as they had the duchy. Furthermore, the importance of the Kingdom of Prussia had little to do with the cultural heritage or geography of the old duchy. It was really a distinct entity that had usurped the name of the old duchy for its own purposes. For this reason, while I think it is sensible to have an article with the title "Prussia" since it is something readers want to know about, I think we do a disservice in providing detailed coverage of the history of the Kingdom of Prussia in the same article in which we discuss the history of the duchy and historical region of Prussia, which was a very different thing, even though it later was part (but far from the dominant part) of the later kingdom. Marco polo (talk) 19:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Your idea sounds good, but I want you to remember that Prussia exceeds the golden age of Bismark and Wilhelm, which was put in the limelight of history. The lost years of Prussia, and especially the expulsion and genocide of the germans in Koenigsbrug and Danzig are just as important, even though they don't have that same idea. We are not only speaking of a group of people, for they no longer exist, but a territory, and most importantly idea, which in some circles still lives on. Prussia, at some point in the 20th century, was transported from a place to an idea, and even though they have been separated our wikiproject should attend to these long-neglected niche articles. Emicho's Avenger (talk) 12:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

I am very aware that the term "Prussia" applies to more than the Kingdom under Bismarck and Wilhelm. I would argue that its golden age was more the time of Frederick the Great, or possibly the time of Hardenberg and Humboldt, who made Prussia arguably the dominant power in Germany. The work of Bismarck and Wilhelm was to transcend (and thereby diminish) Prussia in the creation of a Prussian-dominated Germany. But in all of these cases, I am speaking of the Kingdom of Prussia, whose power and achievements are mainly why the name of Prussia is so well known today. At the core of the Kingdom of Prussia was the March of Brandenburg, not the Duchy of Prussia from which it took little besides its name. That's why I'm arguing that the bulk of the material in this article belongs in the article on the Kingdom of Prussia, which should be our focus as students of Prussia. The historical region and duchy of Prussia, although they were later one of many parts of the kingdom, deserve their own articles focusing on their distinct histories. (The article on the region could extend from prehistory to the present day. The article on the duchy would be limited to the time between its founding and subjection as a kingdom to the Hohenzollern state. There could then be separate articles on the Provinzen (West Prussia, Prussia, and East Prussia) within the Kingdom. And so on. These articles all exist. I'm suggesting the article "titled" Prussia should be a historical discussion of the different entities that have been called Prussia, the most important of which was the Kingdom, of course with links to each of those articles. Is there any support for this idea? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 19:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Prussia and not Persia

The article shows information about Persia(Iran) at the start, introduction. 'Iran or Persia (Persian: Иран‎ Irān [ʔiːˈɾɒːn] (About this soundlisten)), also called Prussia,[12] and officially the Imperial State of Persia' The rest of the article seems to be about Prussia and not Persia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.164.211.73 (talk) 13:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

The page suffers persistent vandalism, such changes will be reverted.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC))

Lusatia

In the first sentence of the territory section it states that Lusatia is a province of the Kingdom of Prussia. Is this a mistake?--User71131159 (talk) 20:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Seems okay to me. Why do you ask? --A D Monroe III^(talk) 02:12, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

No it is amistake, it was not a province, it was part of Brandenburg.(KIENGIR (talk) 07:51, 8 May 2020 (UTC))

specific Nazi image mention

why does the English version specifically puts the emblem of Prussia under Nazi rule that lasted for two years out of all others? is it intended as a shaming tool to stigmatize the name of Prussia? 31.155.181.147 (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's an agenda behind them originally being put there, but I do think it's strange to put in those Nazi versions when they were only in use for two years. I mean, why not use the first flag of the Free State of Prussia? Considering the expansive history of Prussia, I do feel these first two flags best represent it. As a result, I went ahead and removed the Nazi version of the flag and emblem. If anyone has a disagreement, please feel free to continue the discussion here. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 01:33, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Is anyone still Prussian?

And does anyone have/had grandparents from Prussia? Frankinnit (talk) 07:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The real Prussians were Slavs, or Baltics. The ancient Prussians had long been assimilated by Germany. The current Prussian region was divided between Poland and Russia, so "Prussians" do not exist in today's world.--Hunchrick time (talk) 13:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Not the page for it perhaps, but not to leave that unsourced claim unaddressed this is false. Not only do we use 2 separate terms to refer to pre-Germanic Prussians (see "Old Prussians"), but Old Prussians were explicitly not Slavic under any system that generally speaking separates Baltic from Slavic at all. "Prussian" here refers to Germanic Prussians, who still exist albeit their dialect & culture are near-extinct being supplanted by modern standard high German. Depending on if Prussia is seen as a separate or same-entity to modern Germany, they can be defined as living in diaspora. 2A02:1210:1CA7:D700:6155:551B:E721:4CA6 (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Prussia article.

This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. PinLarry (talk) 20:05, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Hiding a map

An editor is attempting to hide a map in the infobox, the second one, showing the extent of Prussia in 1925. I think that the map is useful, certainly as informative as the other map, showing the extent of Prussia in 1870, and it should not be hidden, where readers are likely to be unaware that it even exists. Making such a change in the article's status quo ante requires a consensus from discussion here, and I have advised the editor to stop editing war and make their arguments on this page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Lack of labeled current map of the area

I don’t understand why there are no map of what the area was, superimposed over a map from today. There’s a vague simplistic map but it’s got no labels. This is a lengthy article that leaves out one of the most important items people would search for and how they can relate to where Prussia was when it was dissolved and where that area is today. This would appear in any textbook or physical encyclopedia. Pookerella (talk) 07:53, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Flag

IP 173.187.121.242 has changed the flag to that used during the German imperial period without explanation. Seeing as the current flag has been stable for a while, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss this change. See Flag of Prussia for options. I can't see a reason to use "State flag of the Kingdom of Prussia (1892–1918)". It isn't the longest used flag (that's one used in the article "State flag of the Kingdom of Prussia (1803–1892)"). It's not a flag used when it was an independent power. It isn't the last flag used by Prussia (That's Flag of the Free State of Prussia (1933–1935)). In fact the only reason this very shortly used flag and is only so associated on the internet as THE flag of Prussia because it was used on Wikipedia for so long.

If the IP, or anybody else, has some reason I'm overlooking for using the 1892-1918 flag in this article can they discuss it here and not revert it again without explanation. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 20:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Could both flag be on there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.187.121.242 (talk) 14:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@173.187.121.242 (talk), Can you give a reason why you think the 1892–1918 flag is needed. You keep reverting to your preferred version without discussing it. Can you stop and discuss it please. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 15:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

"Prussia" should be an article introducing "Prussian region", not "Kingdom of Prussia".

Most of this article talks about the Kingdom of Prussia and its subsequent influence. Why is this?

The original Prussians were ancient Slavs, not Germans at all.In Wiki articles such as "Kingdom of Prussia, Brandenburg-Prussia, Hohenzollern", "Germanized Prussia" has been described in great detail. Here is an entry introducing the "Prussian region" rather than introducing "Germany" Prussian State.——Hunchrick time (talk) 13:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. There is a page for the Kingdom of Prussia, Duchy of Prussia, Brandenburg-Prussia and the Free State of Prussia, covering all eras of existence of the Prussian state. As this page is superfluous, it should be repurposed as the Prussia (region) page. Ecrm87 (talk) 23:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I disagree. To treat the Kingdom of Prussia as a continuation of the previous uses of the term is I think ahistorical. The Kingdom of Prussia was centered at Berlin, and had large amount of areas much west of Germany. It even at times included areas now in Switzerland, Belgium and the Netherlands. It is fundamentally different than the Duchy of Prussia. It is also clearly the main usage of the term, because it was one of the great powers of Europe. If we are going to have Prussia itself be anything but a disambiguation page, than the Kingdom of Prussia should be the main focus of the artcle.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The original Prussians were not Slavs at all; they were Balts. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Related Category names

we currently have no Category as best as I can tell which has a scope of people from this unit. We do have Category:People from the Kingdom of Prussia which previously was People from Prussia, but renamed in August 2022. We also have a People from the Free State of Prussia Category. We have lots of categories for people from the provinces of Prussia, many of which are transcend the line between the Kingdom and the Free State. This includes lots of categories for people by occupation from each province. The whole thing is a mess. We need to fix it. There are 3 solutions. 1-I like this best. Stay with the People from the Kingdom of Prussia name, and rename all its subcats to use the Kingdom of Prussia name. Treat those pre-1701 and post-1918 as from distinct entities. 2-accept that there is one Prussia, at least from 1701 until 1932, Brandenburg-Prussia as the current historiographical name for the pre-1701 entity makes using Prussia before that year hard. If we go this route we would return to the People from Prussia name, and change everything under it to using the Prussia format, thus categories like Scuentists from Prussia etc. The 3rd option is basically the second but we change it to Prussian people, Prussian scientists etc. We currently have categories invoking 1, 2, and 3. Although Immigrants to Prussia may be the only one invoking 2, and it would be that name under 3 as well.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)