Talk:Punisher/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

History Or Something

Wow. I have no idea where to ask this, so I thought I 'd bring it to the bottom. Easy to find and all that. First: MAX is separate from 616. Has that been properly addressed within the article? Second: Where has Frank been in the 616 up until the time he shows up in Civil War #5? I came to this article hoping to get caught up, but -- and pardon my French -- but what the fuck? -- Nick Begovich 20:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but I believe you misunderstand the purpose of this article. The article is supposed to treat the character as a phenomenon, not as a real person, and thus the most current stories may not be included as they may not be notable to the character as a whole. If they were, I do not believe they would nor should be in-depth enough summaries to catch you up on the whereabouts of the character in contemporary 616 books, but rather would discuss changes to the character made by contemporary writers, retcons, etc. To answer your first question, I do believe that the article treats the Marvel: MAX version as separate, though it's not entirely straightforward, and could use some cleanup. I don't know the answer to your second question and it may not have been revealed as of yet in the comic books. --Psyphics_ΨΦ 20:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I came here looking for information, and instead found confusion. I proceeded to come to the message board only to find... arguing. It's frustrating, you know? -- Nick Begovich 21:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Understood. Sorry I couldn't help more. I don't know much about the character, but I'll admit there is definitely some work needed on the article. --Psyphics_ΨΦ 21:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

yes, no, maybe - MAX is generally seperate but the way (from the interviews they have given) they are treating the punisher is that those are his adventures when he's not hanging around the mainstream marvel universe (in the same way that Alias is "in" but we are not going to have a flashback in new avengers to Cage handing out some backdoor action). This also gets a wink in War Journal one where he gets his classic outfit on after encountering some badguys. In some respects it's not really worth thinking about too much because the marvel position on his MAX adventures changes from week to week, depending on who's speaking and who's giving the interview. It gets confusing because the MAX imprints take on what is in or out varies from title to title --Charlesknight 22:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Okay. I haven't read War Journal (is it out?), but that makes more sense. Quick comment: for some reason the old outfit sucks less in Civil War #5. Punisher's so cool. I don't know how long it's been since he showed his face anywhere else, though. When did Bullseye Vs. Punisher take place? -- Nick Begovich 22:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

---12/3/06--- I edited out the section where it said that the Punisher has tried to kill Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk, and Daredevil to just say battled. In Punisher 64(I believe that's the number) he states that he wouldn't kill any of them, that they are fighting a good fight, just not making any real difference.

Punisher civil war inclusion

should we include in this article the Punisher's participation in the civil war? †Bloodpack† 06:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely, let us include Frank Castle's actions in the Civil,War, including his rescue of Spider-Man and his killing of Jester and Jack O'Lantern. Somebody has been deleting any references to the Civil War in this article and in History of the Punisher. Let us beseech this person to cease and desist, or at least explain his or her strange POV that Frank did not enter the Civil War. See Civil War #5, Autumn 2006. Erudil 16:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

i object, civil war events/synopsis, including all those who are involved (even the Punisher) should go directly to the main civil article. We are not gonna put every step-by-step, event-by-event of the civil war here. This article is mainly about the Punisher character as a whole. This article is supposed to treat the character as a phenomenon, not as a real person, and thus the most current stories may not be included as they may not be notable to the character as a whole) †Bloodpack† 17:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be included, even if it's just a sentence or two about his appearance. It's a legimate appearance and is relevant to the character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)

The more important point-- the one that needs to be included-- is that the Punisher has reentered the mainstream Marvel Universe, and now targets super-villains, as well as "regular" criminals. -- Nick Begovich 00:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Punisher's Civil war participation: Lets vote

Let us reach a consensus if were gonna narrate every detail of the Punisher's participation in the Civil War (comics) event.

• Exclude- i vote to exclude the Punisher's detailed participation in the Civil War (comics) event. A slight background about his civil war participation found in the Revival section of the article is good enough. The rest, i feel, must go to the main civil war article †Bloodpack† 17:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Include a summary - once the dust settles, anyway. It may be too soon to comment until it's all over. Civil War is notable (in Punisher terms) for at least one thing... it's reintroduced him to the Marvel Universe in the War Journal title. Although he's guest-starred in other books (such as Daredevil), for a while his only title has been the MAX one, minus the guys in spandex... --Mrph 19:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Punisher in the Civil War

So far, Frank Castle has:

• Saved the life and freedom of Spider-Man.
• Killed the Jester.
• Killed Jack O'Lantern
• Created quite a stir among the anti-registration rebel heroes over whether he should be admitted to their ranks or not.

All four of these are major events in the life of Mr. Castle, and major events in the history of the Civil War. It would be absurd to l;eave them out. Erudil 17:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

not "major" events. until we see the end of the civil war, we cannot conclude that these are the "major" events because theres more to happen †Bloodpack† 17:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Bloodpack here and with him and Mrph in section above --Tenebrae 02:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's particularly important as a Punisher "life event," but it is worth mentioning.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)

It seems to me that refusing to include Civil War events because bigger things might happen in the future is a bit like excluding any mention of the events of September 11, 2001, because something bigger might happen in the future, such as the nuclear destruction of a major city. Well, "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball," as they say, so we should not wait for these future events, but just write down what has happened so far. If anything is eclipsed in the future, then in the future delete what has been shown not to be so major after all. Meanwhile, Frank Castle joining the anti-Registration Rebellion, killing super-criminals and saving Spider-Man are very much major events if we do not do any crystal-ball gazing. Erudil 16:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

well, like most everyone said, a basic touch on whats the punisher's stand on the civil war is enough. we dont need to give every single chain of event of the punisher's role on CW or what hes "currently" been doing in civil war. this article is about the character as a whole and NOT an ongoing "comicbook" that we have to update every minute (synopsis) per the CW events †Bloodpack† 17:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but his saving Peter Parker and killing Jester and Jack O'Lantern need to be mentioned. Erudil 16:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Oh, awesome. Action is my reward, too." The biggest thing here-- aside from rescuing Spidey, which is noteworthy-- is that the Punisher is taking it to super-villainy. That should go somewhere. -- Nick Begovich 08:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Why do the links have to keep getting cleared out? There are several Punisher sites that are relevant to encyclopedia readers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)

true, but as per WP:EL and WP:NOT, wikipedia is not a repository or directory of links, as far as im concern, marvel site is the only official link for the punisher, the rest are just commercial fansites †Bloodpack† 18:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree generally. That said, some fansites can be cited as refs, particularly if they have interviews or well-sourced background information.

Also, what's listed as "External links" here should be "References" and what's listed as "References" should be "Footnotes," per WP:CITE. (External links for "for further reading"-type links.) No biggie; I'll fix. --Tenebrae 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

talk page reminder

well, the year is about to close and i feel we should archive the talk page, a fresh start for the new year, i think lets end this year before we start another talkpage, just a thought †Bloodpack† 19:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

God. Have you guys seen this page? I second all that. -- Nick Begovich 08:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

publication history revisions

I changed a couple of things, but the most notable changes are these: first, a reference to a supernatural change in Castle in "Born" to become the Punisher. I see this more as a potential supernatural event, since the voice which would indicate supernatural phenomena is also widely interpreted as an internal event within Castle and not a third party. Secondly, the article stated that Castle often fights enemies of conflicts he has battled in the past, but this is not really evidenced in the MAX unlimited series, with his tours of duty being related only to the Vietnam War (and a complete lack of Vietnam conflict related adversaries.) If this is not accurate, please don't hesitate to educate me. --neo_aa 11:26, 28 December 2006

Punisher 2099

Might be worth adding a brief entry regarding The Punisher 2099 to the Other Versions section? As that series ran for almost three years, it's moderately notable. If nobody else gets there first, I'll add it myself in a day or two. --Mrph 23:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

yes †Bloodpack† 21:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Early life and military career section

Seems rather strangely organised, for instance Gorman just shows up out of nowhere. I can't say I know enough about the Punisher to fix it myself, I thought I might bring it to the attention of those who do. Edward Wakelin 03:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sociopath?

This article categorizes him as a sociopath. However, a sociopath is, and I quote, a person who displays "impulsive behavior, disregard for social norms, and indifference to the rights and feelings of others." The Punisher plans his actions and cares deeply for the rights and feelings of pretty much everyone except criminals. I suggest we change the article to remove him from this category.--TelevisedRevolution 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ehh, it's a tough call. The definition of sociopath is very flexible; read the articles on psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder. ~Switch ^{t c g} 12:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

i think this phrase (from the personality section) pretty much explains why hes a sociopath: Unlike most comic book heroes, Castle also has no dual identity, no "real world" job, no known hobbies and only has few friends. He avoids capture by the authorities not just because of his extensive use of false documents, but also their latent admiration of his work, by eliminating criminals that the police cannot touch for various reasons. He spends nearly all of his time planning his next hit, stopping only to recover from injuries or fatigue. Money taken from criminals is used to purchase food, weapons, ammunition, and pay the rent of one of his many safehouses.

The Punisher also disregards what the police and the public think of him, and has been known to kill corrupt cops. In doing so, it stirred the police into heightened action against him and as such, he is viewed as a dangerous criminal by the public and by most members of the superhero community. †Bloodpack† 09:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

One man's hero is another man's sociopath. It's just how you look at ol' Frank.Kritish5951 03:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

X-men cartoon

It wasn't actually him. It turned out it was a holographci image and it apeared for about 2 seconds. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.207.252.66 (talk) 19:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Reformating

This article really needs to be reformatted. Here's how I should think it should be;

Fictional Character Biography: Like every other fictional character this needs to be first. Cover some of his early life and notable things that happened while he was Frank Castle, then the murder of his family and him becoming the Punisher, then anything that really stands out like him dropping the nuke in Welcome Back Frank.

• Publishing History: Who created the Punisher, and everything that's in the Publishing history section.

• Methods, equipment, etc: All this stuff should be put in one section.

• Ultimate Punisher: I think you know what goes here.

• Punisher MAX: This version of the Punisher (they're in different Universes. Just a brief section on how this guy works.

• Other versions of the Punisher:

• Appearances:

• Triva:

Who agrees with me? --Shaoken 02:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

i dunno about the rest but as for the Punisher MAX section, pls refer here for it has already reached a consensus †Bloodpack† 15:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Castle or Castiglione?

The article frequently switches between referring to The Punisher by either surname of Castle and Castiglione.

Can we do some cleanup on this? It's quite confusing. Is his original family name Castiglione and then anglocized to Castle? Anybody clear on this? And can someone apply the information to the article and keep only one name here?

information given is "Castiglione" is his root surname from his sicilian/italian ancestry then later changed to Castle as his commonly used surname when his family migrated in the US, either ways its still him †Bloodpack† 19:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the majority of the comic world knows him by Frank Castle, so if nobody can update the article with that information, I'm going to sweep the article myself and make sure all heretofore references to The Punisher use 'Castle', and not both. TotalTommyTerror 19:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Along those lines, the narration constantly switches between referring to him as Castle, Frank, and Castiglione, there should only be one uniform referral, and I believe the traditional method is a person's last name. TotalTommyTerror 19:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

go ahead, be bold and make the reference uniformed specifically the character biography †Bloodpack† 19:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'm cleaning it up, couple of questions along the way, was Castle really trained by Captain America/Steve Rogers? I thought Capt. would've still been frozen during that time? TotalTommyTerror 19:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

im not sure about that, maybe that part should have a {{fact}} tag, it needs a citation or else it will be considered as original research †Bloodpack† 21:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it correct to use The Punisher, or the Punisher? I imagine the capital 'The', right? Since it's part of his proper title. TotalTommyTerror 20:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

the Punisher, of course when it starts in a sentence it should be capital T †Bloodpack† 21:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

1. It's Castle. He doesn't go by Castiglione any more. 2. Yes he was trained by Captian America, but it wasn't Steve Rodgers. It was one of his replacements. --

Shaoken 20:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The debate on the new Captain America

It is clear that now Frank Castle is about to replace - or succeed - the late lamented Steve Rogers as the newest Captain America. Frank has picked up the fallen mask and it is clear that he intends to wear it. The question is whether he will clean up his act and stop killing the villains. I think he will - to honor Steve Rogers' memory - but I could be wrong. Erudil 17:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

please consider reading WP:NOR and WP:NOT before making such claims †Bloodpack† 03:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing clear about this, it's complete and utter fancruft and insinuation. If it happens, it happens. That'd be like saying a guy looking at a plate of cookies intends to eat the plate of cookies. You don't know that for sure until it happens. TotalTommyTerror 19:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I was actually one of the people to start this speculation.Though it does seem clear that he plans on becoming the next Captain America i doubt he will be it for long due to his violent nature.I say we wait til it is confirmed that he will be Captain America until we put it in.After all Ironman has Captain America's shield and that is equally important so we cant choose favorites on speculation. Parralax 22:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Correction: Steven Colbert has Cap's shield. I won't even begin to comment on your spelling, Parralax. Ranhalt 05:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

We can't assume he takes on the mantle of Captain America just by the variant cover of War Journal #7. It appears to have been influenced by Cap's costume, but we don't and can't know what he will be calling himself (using mantle as a reference to moniker). Ranhalt 03:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Why aren't you using the talk page to justify your edits, Bloodpack? What notion are we leaving to the readers if we tell them that Castle takes on the mantle of the star-spangled avenger? That would be telling them something what we cannot prove. We do know that he adopts a new costume, that's it. The Marvel.com link literally asks the question "The new Captain America?" It doesn't tell us anything. You also should have two different events in one clause when you state, "At the end of the war and with the controversial death of Captain America..." These two events happen separately and should be broken up into separate sentences or independent clauses. We see Punisher retrieve Cap's cowl immediately following Civil War, but it is some time after when Cap is murdered and we have yet to see how long it takes for him to adopt this new costume. I'll give you some time to think this over, but the page will change to reflect what can only be known at this time. Ranhalt 03:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You're referring to this latter sentence in your edits right?--->"It has yet to be seen how long he will be wearing the new patriotic costume or if he plans to change his moniker."

Anyone can tell that this sentence is unencyclopedic, it has a personal tone coming from a reader's point of view regarding castle's portrayal being captain america. As for the former sentence--->"At the end of the war and with the controversial death of Captain America...", yes its true that these are 2 difference scenarios, but take note that frank wouldnt have picked up cap's cowl if he had not surrender and he wouldnt assume the guise(?) if cap wasnt dead. I just find it awkward to start the civil war section with, "During the civil war..." and yet we see at the bottom, "Following the civil war..." Arent we already "following" the event in civil war when we introduced that section (civil war)? I guess we can compromise with this, but the, "It has yet to be seen how long he will be wearing the new patriotic costume or if he plans to change his moniker." is something i cannot accept †Bloodpack† 05:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

More than one person has disgraced the name Captain America, such as the McCarthy one in the 50s and Johnny Walker (USAgent's) short lived reign. However, times change, and so do views. Steve Rogers was a WW2 war hero, and did plenty of killing during the war. In peacetime, he did his est to avoid killing (he'd probably seen too much of it in WW2 to want to add to it). His weapon (a shield) is a defense weapon.

Frank Castle is probably one of the heirs of the true spirit of Captain America. He's the war version... war on drugs, war on terror, war on crime... there is no doubt there is an America that wars on it's foes (from the Barbaby pirates of Jefferson to the Axis of WW2 to the hidden enemies of 9/11 to today's Iraq). He's not the heir to Captain America, but he does represent one aspect of it. Frank Castle is actually pure in his belief of destroying the forces that threaten liberty in America... except for the part about due process. However, I'm not sure Castle is beyond redemption. If he tosses some mobsters or drug lords on the steps on the police along with the evidence needed to convict them, he's redempable. Executing them without trial is NOT the American Way.

I see it as this: Iron Man destroys the threats to American Business. Captain America destroys the threats to the freedoms our country enjoys. The heir to Captain America has to fight for that ideal. I don't think a true heir will emerge until the various aspects of Captain America are combined in one person. Castle is the America at war. America at peace, and America as a diplomat are unresolved aspects.

Castle isn't pure....but he is pure in heart. He is the war time Captain America. He is an heir.

Frank Castle has said out of his own mouth over the course of the most recent two issues of Punisher War Journal that he is Captain America CapoCastillo 18:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why my edit was reverted but it isn't appreciated. Punisher has called himself Captain America more than once in print. I am readding the text stating he has called himself such. CapoCastillo 18:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but anybody can call themselves Captain America. I won't disagree that Castle believes himself the heir to the legacy, and he probably has good reasons for it. Both himself and Rogers were born out of war (WW2 or Vietnam) and were combat soldiers. Both did wartime killings. Both want justice. Their difference is the methods; Rodgers wanted capture, trial, and imprisonment. Castle goes after those above the law, and justifies murder. The history of Captain America has been filled with pretenders, ranging from the McCarthy version in the 50s to Johnny Walker's stint before he became the US Agent. Honestly, it's to his credit that Frank Castle wants to be Captain America now. Cap is a HUGE ideal to live up to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jclinard (talk • contribs) 11:38, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

Can we use this new pic?

I'm not into making these kinds of changes, but someone may want to look into using the new variant cover of War Journal #7 which shows Punisher in a modified Captain America-esque costume.

http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

Ranhalt 06:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• There's no problem with using the picture as I see it, but it certainly shouldn't be used as the primary character image at the head of the article. Put it down below in the context of Civil War and War Journal. -Sean Curtin 06:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Frank looked at the cookie and ate it. Erudil 18:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, yes he did. I just want to stress that I felt it was wrong to alter the page based on speculation. Even if it was right. TotalTommyTerror 15:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow when i said that it was a possibility that Marvel would make Punisher the new Captain America i didnt think they would actually do it(i hope they dont).Anyways we should put the picture in the article but where.Maybe we should make a section The New Captain America? and then put this picture in ot somehow mention the possibility of him becoming the new Cap. Parralax 00:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Inspired by Mack Bolan

Okay, I don't want this to become a ridiculous edit war or verge on 3RR, but I just re-added a more thoroughly cited compromise version that I believe belongs under the "Publication History" heading. It's an open secret that the Punisher is based on Mack Bolan, and does not qualify as OR.[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] And I've dug up refs from other reputable publications, the BBC, Starlog, and Marvel employee and Punisher artist Mike Deodato, so I don't know how any of this is even remotely OR. But I'm interested in debate here, though, if anyone has any thoughts. Ford MF 18:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll look at the cites above, but the ones that were actually put on the page were unworkable. One was a Wiki, which Wikipedia disallows. The other two are print sources that I'm sure are legit, but given the controversy over the claim (the Punisher's writer-creator, for one, denies this claim) an exact quote from the source is required. "It's an open secret" is highly unencyclopedic.

If Pendleton himself simply believes the Punisher was inspired by the Executioner, that's simply opinion -- which he's entitled to, but which isn't encyclopedic. Ditto for the second part of the paragraph, in which third-party Marvel people claim "everybody knows it's based on the Executioner" -- that's really completely unusable, as it's hearsay.

I urge Ford MF to enter the actual statements from his print sources so other editors can see them, and I'll check out the above sources. Remember, we're looking for confirmable, verifiable fact and not an essay writer's opinion. That said, it would be perfectly factual to say "Many critics [cite] have noted similarities between the Punisher and Don Pendleton's the Executioner, though Conway has said the his character was not inspired by Pendleton's". --Tenebrae 18:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Going over the cites above, one by one. Cite #1 says: "Regardless, Marvel writer Gerry Conway was a fan of the character [the Executioner], and lobbied Marvel boss Stan Lee to introduce a similar character in their line of comics. Lee reportedly rejected Conway's first suggested name for the character, The Assassin, but was fine with The Punisher." This is secondhand, however, and doesn't say where the writer sourced his claim about Conway. --Tenebrae 18:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Cite #2 says the Punisher "was based freely on a novel called War Against the Mafia. Debuting in 1968 and written by Don Pendleton, the book featuring Mack Bolan who dubbed himself the Executioner and, like Frank Castle, was a Vietnam vet who declares a one-man war against the Mafia after seeing his family slaughtered by them. Conway took these and other plot elements, and...." Again, the writer doesn't source his statement; without confirmation, he's stating his opinion that Conway must have taken Pendleton's idea.

Sometimes, though, ideas are just in the Zeitgeist: That's how we ended up with two black-and-white, Manhattan female-vampire art movies in production at the same time (Nadja, 1984' The Addiction, 1985). That seems like it couldn't possibly be a coincidence, but it was. --Tenebrae 18:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Cite #3 says, the Punisher "was inspired from a character in a novel called War Against the Mafia, written by Don Pendleton and published in 1968. In the book, the main character Mack Bolan calls himself The Executioner and, like Frank Castle, is a Vietnam veteran who’s family is gunned down in cold blood." Same issues with this cite as with the first two.

I've got to get some work-type work done. Anybody else want to check out some of the rest?--Tenebrae 18:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough objections. I'm just a little disgruntled that I have to do physical legwork now to get this cited properly. Oh well.

Tangentially, when you say the Punisher's writer-creator, for one, denies this claim, is there a source for that? I was unable to dig up a source from Conway's mouth one way or the other. Do you know of some place where he explicitly denies being inspired by War Against the Mafia?Ford MF 19:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Good question, and I should have stated -- in fact, the exact quote would go well in this article. If memory serves, I'd read it in passing in his blog, which he's since discontinued; I'd come across it in the context of writing the great bulk of the Gerry Conway Wiki entry. And y'know, I'll start nosing around to find a quote. Good catch!--Tenebrae 20:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

should we have a voting for this? †Bloodpack† 22:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. I promised to look up a cite and to look through Ford MF's cites, and Ford MF's promised to look for quotes since the issue's controversial, so I think we could hold off for now. We're all working in good faith. Any cite you can find either way, toss it in!--Tenebrae 22:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

okay got it  ;] †Bloodpack† 22:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)