Talk:Qin (surname)

Requested move 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. The predomimant argument seems to be that the "ash tree" version is far more prevalent than the "zither" version; also the latter now has its article deleted so there isn't anything to disambiguate any more anyway.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

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Qin (surname) → ? –

• There are two articles about surnames called "Qin", this one Qin (surname meaning "ash tree"), and the other one Qin (surname meaning "zither"); per WP:PDAB, once disambiguated, the disambiguatory form should not be ambiguous, but this is clearly so, especially with the associated Qin (last name) redirecting to the other article. Clearly this isn't something that should happen. I suggest that both "(surname)" and "(last name)" point to the same article, and that article should be an overview article on all family names, surnames, last names, gens, tribes, clans called "Qin" (be this a set index, a list, a disambiguation page; probably called Qin (name)), which would then point to other articles that have fuller disambiguation. 65.94.79.6 (talk) 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Qin (family name) should point to the disambiguation page. -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 07:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• These 2 move requests were put in Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests#Requests to revert undiscussed moves. Both want the same page to be moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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• Qin (surname) → Qin (surname originally meaning "pounding grain") (move (@subpage)) – WP:BRD and WP:RM violation. This was previously requested as an RMTR, which was then opened as a full RM request (see Talk: Qin (surname), which was bypassed by a {{db-move}} without having a discussion. This should be reverted and the RM request reopened. 65.94.79.6 (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • See below. Apteva (talk) 02:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Qin (surname) → Qin (surname meaning "ash tree") (move (@subpage)) – Qin (surname originally meaning "pounding grain") was a temporary interim move. The revert should be to Qin (surname meaning "ash tree") Apteva (talk) 02:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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• "Ash tree" is incorrect. (I was misled by an erroneous Wikitionary entry when I first moved it.) If a revert should be done it should be moved to "pounding grain". _dk (talk) 08:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Is Qin (surname meaning "zither") even notable in its own right? Can't the two be merged, with coverage given to the two etymological differences? Alternatively, delete Qin (surname meaning "zither"). --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Article is fine as it is currently titled. Apteva (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

But if Qin (surname meaning "zither") exists, another solution needs to be found for this article, as it leaves this only partially disambiguated, i.e. it is still ambiguous, per WP:PDAB. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:PDAB is only a suggestion and is frequently overridden. See Talk:Nirvana (band)#Requested move, Anthrax (American band), and Qi (state). -Zanhe (talk) 02:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:PDAB is a guideline, which means it can be overridden - though there are only 1 or 2 articles in the bands area where fans of the bands have done so. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a reason to override the guideline when we have other options. Especially seeing as WP:PDAB was only recently clarified, and the Nirvana discussion predates this. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is the only common surname that is spelled Qin. The other one (Qin (surname meaning "zither")) is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia. WP:PDAB has been cited as justification for the proposed move, but that is merely a suggestion that is frequently overridden in practice (for example, see Talk:Nirvana (band)#Requested move). It is especially unsuitable for Chinese topics as the transliteration of Chinese names into English results in numerous homonyms. Besides, the alternatives that have been suggested: Qin (surname originally meaning "pounding grain") and Qin (surname meaning "ash tree") are both incorrect, as the surname originates from Qin (state) which was named after its original capital, a city in modern Gansu province. By the way, I've studied the history of Qin in depth and wrote WP articles for 28 of the 38 monarchs of the ancient state. -Zanhe (talk) 01:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

In which case, perhaps Qin (surname meaning "zither") should be deleted as non-notable, as you state that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia". --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Help readers - given that these entries are bordering into wiktionary territory, and given that the majority of readers looking for and using Chinese surnames articles will not be antagonistic towards Chinese surnames, then Qin (surname 秦, state) Qin (surname 琴, zither) will serve PDAB and readers. The small minority of readers of articles on Chinese surnames who are antagonistic towards Chinese surnames and whose eyes will melt and heads explode on seeing a Chinese surname in the title of an article on a Chinese surname can be given instructions to disable Chinese fonts on their computers or put a paper bag over their head. (tongue not as far in cheek as one might imagine) In ictu oculi (talk) 02:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Chinese characters are completely unacceptable per WP:ACCESS, WP:UE, etc, etc. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Perhaps this discussion should be suspended, pending the outcome of the ongoing disambiguation discussion at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"). --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Problem solved. I've WP:PRODded Qin (surname meaning "zither") as non-notable per Zanhe's comment that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia" and the fact that it was created by the now-blocked user who introduced all these articles that caused this problem in the first place. This will negate the need for disambiguation. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Per WP:UE, are these really different surnames when they've been romanized the same way? How many of our readers, searching for someone with the surname Qin, will know what that means in Chinese? Put me in favor of consolidating these pages here at Qin (surname), whatever that means. Oppose, I guess. --BDD (talk) 16:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.