Talk:Qira, Haifa

Merge?

Can we merge this article with Qamun? By this discussion, I assume what is in Qamun should go into this article? Huldra (talk)

Does anyone have an opinion about this? Or should I just go ahead and merge? Huldra (talk) 23:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, probably should be merged. Continuing from the discussion you mentioned, the historical Cimona/Caymon/Cammona/etc seems to be identified with Tel Qamun (Qeimon, Qaimon, Yoqe'am) which is more than 2km to the north. So what is at [{Qamun]] is not quite correct. It needs to be checked where the 19th century visitors saw Qamun and whether they saw Qira separately, but it seems to me that they saw Qamun at Tel Qamun and Qira at Qira wa Qamun. The SWP map has Tell Kaimun and Kh. Kireh separately. Van de Velde's map shows el-Kaimun and el-Kireh separately. Zero^talk 00:10, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, since no-one objected...in over 2 year, I'm just going ahead and merging them.Huldra (talk) 23:14, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

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Tel Yokneam equal Qamun, me thinks...

User:Bolter21, I see you started Tel Yokneam. AFAIK, that was identical to Qamun...which I have just merged with this article. (See the discussion above.) Im not sure how to sort out this mess, Huldra (talk) 21:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I planned on going to the nearest library and expand the article with book sources but then the military happened. Anyway I think this article should remain a stand alone article about the archeological site.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, it was also a stand alone article ..about Qamun, until a few days ago. Note that the British Mandate data always called it Qireh wa Qemum, or Qira wa Qamun. I have added all the sources from Qamun into this article. I dont have any strong opinion about whether or not it should be two different article, I just note that it will be difficult to split them, as at least newer sources treat them as one. Huldra (talk) 23:52, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

To hopefully reduce my own confusion, here are the names for the two locations:

1605/2300 = Tell Qamun (British maps) = Tel Yokneam/Yoqne'am (Israeli name for same), supposedly identified with ancient Yoqne'am (according to what sources??). Standard sources like Tsafrir identify it with Camona/Cimona – is that supposed to be the same?

1598/2279 = Qira wa QamumQamun (village on British maps)

Zero^talk 10:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I hadnt noticed that Qira was called Qira wa Qamum on the British maps, it was called Kh Kireh on SWP map 8. But yes, what you write is essentially correct, at least according to Khalidi, who om p. 181, under Qira, writes. "A closely related community, Tall Qamun, 160/230, lay only 2 km to the northeast, and because the two were so closely related, some people in the region spoke of them as Qira wa Qamun. The al Muqatta River, which was 4 km to the north, formed the northern border of Qiras land." ....and then Khalidi goes on to tell us some Tall Qamun history, including Thutmose III, and a Crusader castle, Huldra (talk) 22:05, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I found the identification of Tell Qamun (Tel Yoqne'am) as Yoqne'am in this article. The reasoning is thin but that's life for identifications. Anyway we shouldn't be identifying Yoqne'am, or the later Cimona, Caymon, etc, with the village of Qira. All of them refer to Tel Yoqne'am. Zero^talk 01:25, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but according to the Khalidi piece I quoted above, Tell Qamun /Tel Yoqne'am/ Yoqne'am land was part of the juristriction of Qira, Huldra (talk) 20:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

TL;DR: Qamun = an ancient tell, known today as "Tell Yokneam". Qira = a tenant village established on ruins some 2 kilometers south of Qamun, around the late 19th century.

I've recently spent some time reading about ancient sites in Israel and accidently got to read about Tell Yokneam, which brought me back to this article. I made some reading and I came to the conclusion the information about the tell and the village should be separated. As Zero0000 stated, Qira-Qamun is indeed in a different location as the ancient tell. As seen in a British map from 1940 I found on Govmap.gov.il, we could see that the location of "Qira wa Qamun" is about 2km south of "Tall Qamun".

An article written by Peretz/Fritz Levinger, the founding father of the modern town of Yokneam Moshava contains a lot of information. Sadly it is only availabe in Hebrew but it is a very detailed historical research.

So according to what is written in Levinger's article, in a map made by a German from Sarona in 1930, for the land owner, "Qira" is a caravanserai, and a tenant village called the same is established around it. The land was sold to the Sursouk family from Beirut in 1872. Bedouin elders from one of the tribes that inhabited Qira, who now live in Umm al-Ghanam told in an interview with Levinger, that their ancesters first arrived to Qira between 1860 and 1870. Levinger also notes that Condor's survey doesn't mention a village, suggesting the Ottoman government sold the land to the family when it had no residents. I used Govmap.gov.il again to find the location of the village today and I found that it is today a an open field in bloc number 11079. You can clearly see the ruins of an "n" shaped compound, which might be a caravnserai, and might not. A standing structure is seen there, I found a google street view picutre of it (and from another angle). The google street view pictures also show us that Qira is another tell. Either the standing structure, or the entire compound seem familiar with the building called "Kire" in the 1930 map mentioned above.

So it is safe to say that the village of Qira, is only a thing from the late 19th century, and most of the history in this article refers to the ancient tell. Although both Qamun ("Chateau d'El Kireh") and Qira ("Qairah") appear in Jacotine's 1799 map, van de Velde states Qamun as a hill with the ruins of a christian church, which is exactly the description of Tel Yokneam, when he heads towards Qira, "half an hour south" (which may be two kilometers between modern Tel Yokneam and the ruins of Qira), he describes the "ruins of a town called el-Kireh", so at that time indeed there were no locals here. He also says that Jacotine confounded Tell Qira with Tell Qamun, so supposedly it was supposed to be something like "Chateau d'El Qaimun", which would probably refer to the church.

I am moving information about Tel Qamun/Yokneam from this article to the Tel Yokneam article and keep this article as an article about the village it self. I'll also add information from Levinger's article about the village. Hopefully I'll finish working on that before I'll return to occupy the West Bank for another two weeks.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:03, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

"Not [a] reliable source"

Shrike, could you please explain this edit? The summery says "Not [a] reliable source" but it is not clear. You removed van de Velde's source, but also a few parts of the article by Peretz Levinger.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:21, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Petersen

Petersen gives as ref HG p. 133, alas, that ref is to Qira, Salfit, Huldra (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC)