Talk:Queen Elizabeth University Hospital

Article name and concept

The article seems very mixed up. The lead suggests its about the Southern General Campus, however the name indicates its about the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital. Bearing in mind the children's hospital official name is the Royal Hospital for Sick Children we need to decide what the article is about. if it is about the campus which it seems it is then the article needs renamed to cover a more broad concept.Blethering Scot 21:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I've moved the article to Queen Elizabeth University Hospital Campus, which is backed up by the fact this is the official name the NHS trust call the site by. Ive also created redirects to the correct sections of the article.Blethering Scot 20:45, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I work there, I can assure you that while the site may sometimes be referred to as a campus, in practice QEUH is used to refer to the whole site and incorporates the retained sites and new childrens hospital etc. Campus is used much in the same way people refer to Strathclyde Uni's campus much less than they say Strathclyde Uni. The facility is known on internal documentation as QEUH not QEUH Campus. I suggest a reversion to the previous title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.192.8 (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The article is about the hospital which covers the campus, not the campus itself as they're the same thing. GRA (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately sources contradict. If you want this to be about the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital only then new articles will need created for Royal Hospital for Sick Children and content about neurology removed. Sources clearly indicate that they are not part of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, but the campus.Blethering Scot 11:50, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that the proposed title is the most common name in reliable sources and is also in line with our standard naming practices. Jenks24 (talk) 09:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

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Queen Elizabeth University Hospital Campus → Queen Elizabeth University Hospital – The addition of 'Campus' to the title is not required, the pre-existing name covers the entire site, including landscaping and retained clinical units. The name 'Queen Elizabeth University Hospital refers to the entire site in much the same way a university does not feature 'XYU Campus' in its title. The name Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the facility based on various sources from news reports, official sites and in-facility documentation. GRA (talk) 14:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 00:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support – Not sure why campus is needed at all not the article I originally searched for and seems confusing.192.121.113.96 (talk) 09:53, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Oppose strongly. Unfortunately official sources for the main hospital and independent sources show distinct difference.. The adult hospital is called Queen Elizabeth University Hospital and the children hospital is called The Royal Hospital for Sick Children. The campus is called Queen Elizabeth University Hospital Campus The distinct names is included in sources [1] [2] and the naming of the hospitals was featured in the tv programme about the move which stated the two hospitals have a separate identity. See this picture of the queen opening the site which show separate naming plaques and reads Her Majesty The Queen officially opened the new south Glasgow hospitals and Teaching and Learning Centre at a special ceremony attended by 300 guests. Note hospitals not hospital. In fact even the addition you made here contradicts that the article is purely about Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, as neurology was part of the old southern and has been included as part of the campus. It is not part of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, but the campus. If the correct term of campus isn't liked then two distinct articles need to be created, however the article is very clearly about all hospitals and the title Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is misleading. Blethering Scot 11:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

"Oppose strongly. Unfortunately official sources for the main hospital and independent sources show distinct difference." - My issue is that "Campus" is not used aside from in a few pieces of online media, it has no official standing and is neither on our maps or documentation. We refer to the whole site as the QEUH in the NHS.

"The adult hospital is called Queen Elizabeth University Hospital and the children hospital is called The Royal Hospital for Sick Children." - That is correct, the issue however is the usage of QEUH when referring to both sites.

"The campus is called Queen Elizabeth University Hospital Campus" - I'm afraid not, we don't use that terminology at all, the website uses it in some places but that's about it.

"The distinct names is included in sources [1] [2] and the naming of the hospitals was featured in the tv programme about the move which stated the two hospitals have a separate identity." - They do, that's already mentioned in the article.

"See this picture of the queen opening the site which show separate naming plaques and reads Her Majesty The Queen officially opened the new south Glasgow hospitals and Teaching and Learning Centre at a special ceremony attended by 300 guests." - I was there. The issue however is that the entire site is both officially and colloquially referred to as the QEUH

"Note hospitals not hospital. In fact even the addition you made here contradicts that the article is purely about Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, as neurology was part of the old southern and has been included as part of the campus. It is not part of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital" - That's not correct, it most certainly is, we call them 'retained sites', they're part of the QEUH in terms of organisation, staffing and logistics. They're even under QEUH our management and departments system.

"If the correct term of campus isn't liked then two distinct articles need to be created, however the article is very clearly about all hospitals and the title Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is misleading." - I see what you're saying however I disagree and to be honest but you should know renaming without consultation is not best practice.

I appreciate this may not be very clear, all I can do is try and correct this based on my experience working there, it's why I decided on the original QEUH title when creating the article rather than including something like 'campus'. GRA (talk) 18:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You're contradicting yourself. You cannot say it is known as QEUH by the NHS, when the trust that runs the Hospital refers to it as Campus. This is Wikipedia and we go by sources not what hospital employees call it. Blethering Scot 18:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support – The common name does not include "campus", and Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is both WP:CONCISE and precise enough to identify the subject. RGloucester — ☎ 15:20, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Except it Isn't. Are you saying the common name for The Royal Hospital for Sick Children is Queen Elizabeth University Hospital. Of course it isn't. If this is renamed then the articles needs split, with the Sick Kids having a separate article. Blethering Scot 19:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

"Sick Kids" already has a separate article, it just hasn't been updated. Also keep in mind that that hospital is no longer called "Royal Hospital for Sick Children", but "Royal Hospital for Children, Glasgow". It was renamed at the same time as when "South Glasgow University Hospital" was renamed "Queen Elizabeth University Hospital". RGloucester — ☎ 00:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support – The common name does not include "campus" as pointed out above, segments of the website also use previous names and conceptual names for the site. As also mentioned above, Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is both WP:CONCISE and precise enough to identify the subject and is what's actually used in practice. Furthermore, while not a source nor am I intending to use my personal experience working at the hospital as a source for the change, I will add that we do refer to the whole site as QEUH, including the Childrens hospital, in practice and indeed it's under that umbrella for staffing, logistics and the like as are the retained sites.

Additionally many sources also refer to the facility the same way the staff and PHF's in Scotland do, notably, even the Healthcare Improvement Scotland section of NHS Scotland, they state:

"Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is a 1,677 bed acute hospital with a full range of healthcare specialties. The hospital is built on the site of the former Southern General Hospital and opened at the end of April 2015. The hospital houses a newly built 1,109 bed adult hospital, a children’s hospital and two major A&E departments, one for adults and one for children."

Other sources state things like: "Scotland’s largest children’s hospital moves to new home at the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital". While the website and some news media use the term campus in some places and not in others, it's really not used at all in public and it would not seem therefore to be the best choice for an article. I think a good solution would be to create a redirect for the new Royal Hospital for Children and redirect it to the childrens hospital section of the QEUH article, that should be a good compromise and still be accurate.

It is true that the site includes the adults and childrens hospitals that retain somewhat separate identities outwards, internally they're the same facility.

Naming conventions for hospital articles follow the WP:COMMONNAME policy. The preference for common names avoids several problems like obscurity, for example some official names are never used except in legal or other documents/sources (like the website).

Wikipedia has guidelines on what represents a good title:

Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.

Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.

Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.

Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.

Consistency' – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.

This, in addition to arguments and links made below regarding the usage of campus, is why I believe campus should not be included in the name, it simply doesn't seem appropriate, especially not for a hospital as it doesn't fit naming conventions.GRA (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support – Common name does not include "campus", mentioned in media and some maps but does not appear to be official name. QEUH fits WP:CONCISE and naming conventions relating to facilities and their grounds.185.58.164.44 (talk) 12:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request for input on how to move to GA under current title

This article is now in the situation where it is a complete and utter mess. I had planned to work on this to get up to GA, like I had Forth Valley Royal with the help of others. Unfortunately this now looks to be a far more difficult task. We have an article stating in name and lead it is about the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital when in fact it is actually about several other facilities including The new Royal Hospital for Sick Kids, Institute of Neurological Sciences, Laboratory Medicine Building all of which are not physically part of Queen Elizabeth University Hospital. Im frustrated that no editor including the nominator of move @MrGRA: who actually came to the same conclusion that the previous name was better for overall article, didn't take time to see how we make this article work.

The Lead states The Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is a 1,677 bed acute hospital with a full range of healthcare specialities. then later states The hospital houses a newly built 1,109 bed adult hospital, a children’s hospital and two major A&E departments, one for adults and one for children. The children's hospital and adult hospital are not the same, they are run separately, have been named officially by the queen separately and reliable sources make mention of being separate facilities. And then wow in paragraph 5 we acknowledge its a campus and in the infobox. We cannot say The Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is a hospital that houses a adult hospital and childrens hospital, that is both factually incorrect and misleading. A hospital does not contain two hospitals. We could say Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is a Adult and Children's hospital which makes more sense, but it is factually incorrect or we say The Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, is a building that houses a newly built 1,109 bed adult hospital and a children’s hospital. The latter is both factually correct and reads the best however that means the article title doesn't fit. The issue repeats itself throughout the article.

At no point was the official name taken into account. Yes common name overrules but only when it makes sense to do so. Given we have strong reliable sources indicating separate identity and official sources indicating the NHS treat separately this was not done in the best interest of the encyclopaedia. I put this to you, can you prove that Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow's common name is actually Queen Elizabeth University Hospital. I find it highly unlikely anyone can as you could for Yorkhill. As up to date sources refer to the overall site and talk about sick kids. Fair enough early sources did not differentiate but the new ones do.

The article either needs clearly a major rewrite, or the crazy situation suggested by @RGloucester: that Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow is updated to be about the original one at Yorkhill and about an entirely new hospital. He also is slightly ignorant by saying was renamed after it was rebuilt at Queen Elizabeth University Hospital. Royal Hospital for Sick Children was always it's official name and the location of the old article. It was always affectionately known as Yorkhill and was common name but not official. The old article shouldn't be updated as that article is only about the old hospital. If we need separate articles then Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow will need moved to Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Yorkhill as common name or Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow (1882) and a new one created at Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow.

For the record to those who went on about what NHS staff call it. A) thats not necessarily relevant and B) I work for the NHS, not this particular Health board but a highly associated one and we refer to it as separate institutions, as NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde officially do. Please do not say I work for the NHS and this is what its called. The NHS is a wider organisation and you can't state that the common name amongst all NHS health boards is this, especially when your own health board would disagree with you.

Given that those who took part in discussion to move page created this mess i hope you take time to improve the article to a state where it is actually about what it states on the tin, not giving readers false impressions.Blethering Scot 17:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I apologise in advance for the tone of the above comment. Im just frustrated at the situation we have now created for ourselves. Also i know i made a mistake re name of children hospital realised you meant they dropped sick not that it was called Yorkhill. However that makes the point clearer u couldn't possibly update the old article. The old hospital did not simply just move it was closed down and a new hospital opened. To make it worse the old hospital building has now reopened as West Glasgow Ambulatory Care Hospital. Whatever we do the article now requires a massive rewrite and the additions by GRA make me more certain of that as the article is clearly now not about the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital itself. The wording is not great in the article and is misleading, again something I feel GRA is mostly responsible for. Unless common sense prevails then my preference right now would be to create the article about the Sick Children and remove the additional information that is not about the actual new hospital.Blethering Scot 22:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

To be clear: the new children's hospital is NOT termed the "Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow". It is the "Royal Hospital for Children, Glasgow". "Sick" was removed at the same time that the "South Glasgow..." was renamed "Queen Elizabeth..." I don't see how the situation with the RHCG is any different than the one with Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh. That article includes the whole history of the hospital. Yes, the hospital moved to Little France, to a new building, but it is still the same hospital from an institutional perspective. Move Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow to Royal Hospital for Children, Glasgow and add the stuff about the new hospital. Problem solved. RGloucester — ☎ 22:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

User:RGloucester See my above comment. I would appreciate if you had bothered to read before replying.Blethering Scot 22:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

User:RGloucester Sorry no that would not suffice it is not the same hospital. You clearly don't know the difference between renaming a hospital i.e South Glasgow to Queen Elizabeth or closing a hospital and rebuilding and yes calling it a different name when it reopens. Frankly u are seriously not helping anyone here.Blethering Scot 22:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I read it, and it doesn't make any sense. What exactly is the issue, here? RGloucester — ☎ 22:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

User:RGloucester And sorry please dont lie to me. You clearly never read it. If you did you wouldn't of needed to address the issue of the work Sick.Blethering Scot 22:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Right now you are. It makes perfect sense. Queen Elizabeth Hospital is the same hospital as South Glasgow that is a rename. Royal Hospital for Sick Children and Royal Hospital for Children are not the same hospital in anyway. No from a institutional perspective they are not the same hospital. Also no that wouldn't solve the problem of this article. It is an article that doesn't know what the hell it's supposed to be. It talks about campus, it talks about The hospital houses a newly built 1,109 bed adult hospital, a children’s hospital'. Thats impossible a hospital can't house a children's and adult hospital, a building can or a campus can. It either is Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is an adult and children's hospital (Factualy Incorrect) or Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is a building that contains and adult and children's hospital. Its frankly a joke of an article right now and is about a campus not a specific hospital. The majprity of sources make reference to the site or campus. Were pussy footing around the obvious.Blethering Scot 22:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I understand that. That's why I'm in the process of fixing this up. I'm removing the stuff about the new Sick Kids to Royal Hospital for Children, Glasgow, and cleaning up this article to be about the adult hospital only. RGloucester — ☎ 22:55, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Why are you reverting my changes? Like I said before, Royal Hospital for Sick Children (Yorkhill) and Royal Hospital for Children (at QEUH) are the same hospital, simply housed in different buildings. We did not create separate articles for the Lauriston Place RIE and the Little France RIE. That wouldn't make any sense. RGloucester — ☎ 22:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You have no grasp of facts or reality, and are coming across as a serious liability to the encyclopaedia. You are trying to claim that the hospital simply moved and was simply renamed and all the history of the old hospital transfers. That is not the case its a brand new hospital and is not supported by sources. You were entering information that is false.Blethering Scot 23:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Principle reason for this revert is as I said article has clearly been written about all hospitals and buildings on the site. Simply removing children hospital does not address the lead of article, does not address the fact that other sections of article are also about services not actually in Queen Elizabeth University Hospital but the wider campus. The article needs a total rewrite to either be about Queen Elizabeth University Hospital or to even simply be properly about the site as a whole. There are glaring issues either way. For instance Institute of Neurological Sciences & Laboratory Medicine Building are not actually part of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, they are part of the overall campus. Blethering Scot 23:20, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I was in the process of rewriting the lead when you reverted. It is a brand new hospital building or facility, but the hospital itself is not new. It has direct continuity with the old hospital, just as New France RIE has with Lauriston Place RIE. There is no need to be so rigid about things. The scope of this article has been narrowed by an RM, and as such, the article must change. RGloucester — ☎ 23:34, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You had no intention of making the required changes to this article, until I raised it. The article needed more than children hospital removed. Go ahead and remove children's section and other parts that aren't part of hospital and rework lead, but do not add detail into old Sick Children's article as it is irrelevant there. Unfortunately I prefer sources than your opinion on this and I will create the new Children's article over next few days. The RM was not about changing scope of article it was about the name. There was nothing wrong with this article, had the name remained the same. You created a unnecessary problem.Blethering Scot 23:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not create any problem. I did not create the RM, I merely commented because I saw this at WP:RM. I tried to assist in modifying the article to address your concerns, and all you've given is hostility. I don't have the patience for this type of conflict or enough interest in this matter to continue on here, so please go about resolving these problems yourself. RGloucester — ☎ 01:05, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea why you feel such an adversarial and hostile attitude is needed. You make comments like "The children's hospital and adult hospital are not the same, they are run separately" despite the fact they are most certainly not. I'm sorry you didn't like the decision but consensus agreed with it, the childrens hospital while retaining a different public identity does not exist as a separate facility. It;s integrated in every way with the adult hospital as the HIS say, as part of the QEUH. GRA (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

As per sources provided, QEUH minus the addition of campus is still the best name. Consensus stands and with respect, you don't need to be so hostile Blethering Scot, most agree with this course of action. Imperialpeace (talk) 01:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

No idea what the hostility (as pointed out by others) is about, my impression is that the QEUH incorporates neurology, childrens hospital etc as pointed out by HIS which was highlighted by others, as far as I'm concerned the best option would is to point the section on the childrens hospital to the article about it. As for Neurology, even the Neurology building list themselves as part of the QEUH here: http://www.neurology-in-ggc.scot.nhs.uk/how-to-find-us-sgh 185.58.164.44 (talk) 09:23, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

You are all idots. You have chosen to ignore sources which clearly indicate that the children's hospital is not the same and is run separately. Even the bloody NHS trust admit that. Frankly I will not waste my time trying to get this mess of an article to GA. Not when you are all pig ignorant.Blethering Scot 15:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

As RGloucester stated above RM changed scope of article. Article must be changed to indicate that. As for being hostile Its fully justified when MrGRA fails to acknowledge facts. Plenty of sources show they are run separately.. This is poor editorial judgement. It is getting really bad when we dont believe what sources say and try and use primary sources to indicate something they don't actually say. Especially when the health board that run them treat them seperatly. See this article from health board which states 'The brand new children’s hospital, with a separate identity and entrance, is adjoined to the adult hospital. It replaces the former Royal Hospital for Sick Children located in Yorkhill. The neurology block and Maternity Unit are part of the campus not QEUH.Blethering Scot 15:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility may be worth a visit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.255.234.68 (talk) 17:51, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Sources on Campus or site

It is clear to me that when referring to all both hospitals and other services sources refer to it as a site or campus. So if this article is about all hospitals and services then article does have wrong name. If it is about purely Queen Elizabeth University Hospital then content needs spun off. Campus Herald Scotland Campus The Scotsman Campus BBC 1 Campus BBC 2 Campus BBC 3 Campus BBC 4 Campus STV Campus STV2 Campus NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde Site Evening Times Campus Evening Times Campus The Telegraph

I think this has been covered, most rejected the use of campus due to WP:COMMON, it's not the official name or the name used by the public. The boc above has more info. Also to be fair, the usage of campus on those articles doesn't change the official name or name in use. Imperialpeace (talk) 01:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with ImperialPeace, the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital description by HIS, part of the NHS, accurately describes the place. I see no issue and the matter was resolved with general agreement as you can see above.185.58.164.44 (talk) 09:11, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this the "largest hospital campus in Europe"

I feel this statement, at the very least, needs some qualification. Do you mean largest footprint/volume/number of beds etc? The page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_hospitals lists several hospitals in Europe with more beds: Helsinki University Central Hospital, Motol University Hospital, Sahlgrenska University Hospital, Vienna General Hospital. I feel it's probably worth taking this comment down until it's been clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.68.45 (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2020 (UTC)