Talk:Queen of the Night aria

Kelis

The singer Kelis uses a sample of the stacatto part from Der Hölle Rache in her song "Like You". Does anyone know which singer she sampled? John Holly 19:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, this page badly needs to be rewritten. I appreciated the information, but with all these silly embellishments (e.g. "nearly ubitquitous") and grammatical errors, it was tough to get through.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.167.158 (talk) 19:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Callas

Removed Callas - she didn't sing this aria ever. Before you post please find the record or cd. Then post. The Ubik 13:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been removing Callas again and again for ages. People just don't get it. Thanks. John Holly 16:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

So exactly why do I have a recording of Callas singing this piece on my iPod? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.53.203.93 (talk) 07:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Because you downloaded something on a P2P network which a title bearing her name, but she never sang it and if you compare it to her other recordings you can see that it's not her voice. There's no official record anywhere of her performing as the Queen anywhere, not in opera houses or concerts or anything and there are no bootleg versions of concerts containing this piece. She was not, ever, a coloratura soprano and did not have the tessiture or range required to sing this, period. John Holly 11:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if she really didn't had the tessiture or range to sing the Queen of the Night but I can tell you that she was a coloratura soprano -she sang Lakmé, Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani, Mignon, Norma... All of these written for a coloratura soprano (you can even find her recordings in YouTube)-.

I don't if the ever sang the queen either but she gave a master class (you can find it in YouTube also) about "Der hölle rache.." and even about the other aria of the queen "O zittre nicht, mein lieber sohn". I've read about Callas and I think she could have sang it but never did. Well I hope my comment helps.--AulendilElessar (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Erika Miklosa

Where's Erika Miklosa from the list of sopranoes who have sung the aria? She have sung it at the Met, so in my opinion she deserves her name to be here. TehLunatic (talk) 17:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I removed her name earlier. My opinion is that this list could get extremely long (and extremely boring for our readers) if everyone just put in their favorites. A reasonable criterion for inclusion, I think, is whether the Wikipedia has an article to link to, and there is none for Miklosa. Maybe you could find some reference sources and write one... Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the fast answer. I wanted to make a userpage for her, but i haven't had time yet ( learning, always learning...) But in the summer I'll make one for her, thats for sure. I'll write here if i will have finished, so she can be put back on her well-deserved place.Kind Regards, TehLunatic (talk) 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Opus33 (talk) 20:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Media

The 2 samples given are not the best available (perhaps a © problem?). Worse, when trying to pause or stop them before the end, they continue whatever you do, even closing the page, so you have no way else than waiting the end or restarting the whole computer. I tried to rewrite the section using standard "Listen" instructions instead of the 3 "multi-listen" ones (start, item, end) that seem discontinued, but the flaw remained, while it doesn't hit the "Accordion chords" example in Template:Listen. So the flaw may be inside the 2 files ("Der Hoelle Rache.ogg" and "Die Holle Rache.ogg"). Thx to anyone who could fix this... Michel Merlin (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks that the article would survive if we remove the second media file (Die Holle Rache.ogg)? While the performance deserves appreciation, I'm not sure it is necessary to demonstrate it here, provided we have an orchestrated version right above it. Note also that the conversion to OGG deteriorated it to a major extent.Iorsh (talk) 08:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

List of sopranos who have sung the aria

This list is getting longer and longer.

It seems to me that any modern soprano who has the right range and is eminent enough to have her own WP article would be very, very likely to have performed this aria -- it's just super-familiar in the world of opera. For this reason, the list is pretty uninformative, and therefore uninteresting -- one might as well just visit [[Category:Sopranos]]. For this reason, I propose to remove this section, unless a lot of people complain. Thanks for listening, Opus33 (talk) 19:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

• agree. It's basically trivia. Eusebeus (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

"The aria" section

I just want to know if the term "menacingly grandiose" in this article is really necessary.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.154.17 (talk) 07:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Media

The second example is very painful to listen to. I gather it is probably performed by Florence Foster Jenkins to contrast with the 1st, well-sung one, but, it does not do justice to this "menacingly beautiful" aria. Is there any opposition to have it removed? --DoSiDo (talk) 01:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Title

"Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen", commonly abbreviated "Der Hölle Rache", is often referred to as "The Queen of the Night [sic] Aria", ...

So, the most common name is "The Queen of the Night's Aria". The next most common reference is "Der Hölle Rache". The full incipit is the least known of all. Thoughts? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

No thoughts here; there are redirects for many variations (except for "The Queen of the Night's Aria"), so I don't think finding the article should be a problem. The NMA score (No. 14) lists the aria as "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen", so the current title can't be all that wrong. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:35, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

No thoughts here either; I'm happy to follow NMA. For what it's worth: in discussions of poetry, untitled poems are sometimes referred to by their first line ("Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare."). This increases identifiability. So I feel that what we have is the most encyclopedic title, and the redirects would be the best way to help people find it. I just added in The Queen of the Night's Aria as a redirect. Opus33 (talk) 15:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

YouTube and copyright

We're piling up links to YouTube versions right now, and I'd like to bring up an issue involving these versions.

It is probable that every one of these You Tube postings violates the copyright of the recording company that made and sold the recording in the first place. While I doubt that we are ourselves violating copyright by linking to these postings, nevertheless I feel there is a certain sleaziness in doing it.

My personal preference is to take down all links to copyright-violating material in this article. Would any other editor object? Thanks, Opus33 (talk) 16:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC) Opus33 (talk) 16:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I've now followed up on this and located the official WP policy, here. It seems that we are not supposed to be linking to sites that themselves violate copyright, so I will now take down the YouTube links. Opus33 (talk) 00:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Voyager

Seems to me like enough of a statement about the aria to include it here as well: the aria is considered exemplary or representative enough to send to meet hypothetical intelligent life in space... Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I very much dislike the indiscriminate lists of links of trivial connections in these articles, but placing this aria on the Voyager Golden Record seems to me worthy to be mentioned. BTW, the recording can be heard here: Edda Moser: "Der Hölle Rache" on YouTube -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:06, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm opposed but hardly enough to squabble about it. Feel free to reinstall. Opus33 (talk) 16:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Title Translation

"Hell's Vengeance Boils in my Heart" is an incorrect English translation and should read: "Hell's Revenge seethes in my Heart" as the verb Kochen - to cook, is used in German to mean cook/boil as well as express growing anger, and in this case the Queen is not preparing food but is livid that Sarastro kidnapped Pamina. Also Rachen should be revenge as revenge is a clearer word with less subtlety and nuance.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:8980:a3b8:214:22ff:fe60:6d9d (talk) 20:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think the English verb "boil" covers the same meaning as the German "kochen", both in the "cooking" and the "seething" meaning. As for German "Rache": I think "hell's vengeance" is more idiomatic than "hell's revenge", but only just. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move. It seems the concerns of both editors opposing this move have been addressed. (non-admin closure) KSFT ^(t|c) 20:07, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

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Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen → Queen of the Night aria – The article's second paragraph describes it as "one of the most famous of all opera arias" — it is instantly identifiable as part of general cultural perception and, in the English-speaking world, referenced as "Queen of the Night aria", or simply "Queen of the Night", rather than as the lengthy and virtually unrecognizable to English speakers, "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen". Another option, if preferred by consensus and / or WP:WikiProject Opera could be Queen of the Night (aria), thus enabling, under appropriate circumstances, the aria's name to be piped as simply Queen of the Night (aria)|Queen of the Night. In fact, a good argument might be made that this aria's English name, "Queen of the Night", can claim to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the Queen of the Night disambiguation page where the origin of every entry's English name can be said to stem in one way or another from this aria's English name. The topic was previously raised (at 09:06, 19 October 2010, above), but never submitted to a vote. Two other arias from The Magic Flute, "Dies Bildnis ist bezaubernd schön" and the Queen of the Night's other aria, "O zittre nicht, mein lieber Sohn", have Wikipedia articles under their German titles, but neither one has the instant iconic recognizability of this aria nor an instantly recognizable English-language title. A few other German arias, such as "Adele's Laughing Song" or "Song to the Evening Star" are also listed under their English titles as is The Magic Flute opera, itself. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 02:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose – There are plenty of redirects to this article, and they will help finding it. There's no need to invent a title, especially not Queen of the Night, which is a role, not a musical number. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:38, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

"Queen of the Night" is this aria's WP:COMMONNAME in English, as well as the name of the character who performs the aria. If consensus decides that the aria is not appropriate for serving as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then the most obvious English-language options would appear to be Queen of the Night aria, per nomination, or its alternative form Queen of the Night (aria). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Oppose - The character (Königin der Nacht /Queen of the Night) sings two arias in the opera, while the title would suggest there's only one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Queen of the Night's other aria is mentioned in the nomination's penultimate sentence and, while it is very highly regarded, it does not have the instantly recognizable iconic stature nor is it known by the instantly recognizable English WP:COMMONNAME, "Queen of the Night". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:58, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:UE. As nominator says, "Queen of the Night aria" is the WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources. For example, a search of that phrase in the nytimes.com archives gives 49 results (though it includes slight variants including "the Queen of the Night's aria". A search for the German name gives 1 result. The shortened version, "Der Hölle Rache", gives 25 results. If this RM fails, I think it would be helpful to the reader to at least include the common English name in the intro, bolded. Colin M (talk) 04:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly the WP:COMMONNAME for this very well known piece, see for example:[1][2][3]--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  All three of these Google searches in "Books" return results, but without indication how many. Searching for the same three terms in Google "All" returns 94,600 for "Queen of the Night aria", 209,000 for "Der Hölle Rache", and 102,000 for "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" – hardly a compelling set of numbers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Since this is English Wikipedia, the heart of the matter centers solely upon this aria's WP:COMMONNAME in the English-speaking world, therefore Google "All" does not represent a directly-focused search. The search for this article's "official" main title header needs to focus only upon English-language sources. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

As I wrote before, the Google "Books" searches provided by User:Cuchullain are not convincing because they don't provide any numbers for the returned results. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Michael Bednarek: The numbers are there if you click on them, but to spell it out, "Queen of the Night" aria gets 6,890 Google Books hits while "Der Hölle Rache" gets 3,480 and the present title gets 1500. And part of the results for the German titles are German language sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:20, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Those numbers, or any numbers, don't show up when I click on the links you provided. Thank you for spelling them out, although I notice that the search term "Queen of the Night" aria doesn't quite reflect the proposal here, "Queen of the Night aria". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support per supporters. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.