Talk:Quinceañera/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sources

Although I appreciate the need for sources, I don't think that flag is appropriate for this article. People born into Latino/a culture wrote most of this. In general, Quinces are not somthing we need to research, since it's somthing we grew up with. Just because it's a different culture than that of the flagger, that doesn't mean we should have to refrence our experiences, as if they aren't real. It would be as if someone from the United States wrote that turkey was traditionally eaten on Thanksgiving and was asked for a citation.

Way to go on cultural compentency Wikipedia! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.231.55.218 (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

This article in particular suffers from not only being unsourced but also being written in an informal style that emphasizes the personal experience nature of the content being entered and highlights the lack of scholarly treatment. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a magazine or forum, with a policy that the standard for inclusion is verifiablity not truth this is indicative of a poor quality article. Articles that are unsourced, regardless of the subject matter, should be flagged to encourage editors to raise the standard. There is no reason we shouldn't have great Latino/a related articles on Wikipedia, accepting lower standards for them isn't cultural competency - it's patronizing. -- Siobhan Hansa 11:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

 I second this.  Paladinwannabe2 21:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Lacks sources and research

This article seems to be collection of personal experience as opposed to common practices. PLEASE AVOID GENERALIZATIONS and REFRAIN FROM USING PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. There had been a lot written about quinceaneras in Latin American and the US. If you're going to describe general experiences cite your sources. Where can you get sources? Check online, at your local library, or at the library of a university close by with a Sociology or Latin American Studies department.

This is particularly hard with a huge and diverse country like Mexico where celebration vary from region to region as well as within socio-economic echelons. Furthermore, I highly doubt that description of a quince for Cuba holds true today, as there is no upperclass in Cuba anymore. So what you're describing may only be found in Southern Florida.

Also, what about the debate now amongst Latinos, why spend all this money on a quinceanera when we can start saving for college and stuff? It's a real criticism that should be discussed.--Arthurian Legend 19:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The quince is still seen as important in Cuba - many people save up in order to give their girl a quince; whilst some who's parents are too poor feel they have missed out. -- Beardo 11:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Different Countries

As far as I can tell, the 3 different countries mentioned don't really say anything unique to those countries... I'm sure that we can combine them into one section about quinceañeras in general.

I've noticed that Quinceañeras are getting a lot more attention these days from the mainstream media. They are also becoming more elaborate, at least in the United States, where I work as a Quinceañera planner. BellaQuincedotcom 15:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)BellaQuincedotcom

Italian?

This article makes frequent reference to the quince años also being celebrated in Italian culture, with no reference to the Italian word for the ceremony or the nature of the ceremony in Italy or among the Italian diaspora. The Italian article for this subject makes no mention of the quince años being celebrated in the Italian culture. My understanding of the ceremony (as a non-Hispanic White U.S. citizen) is that it is only celebrated in Latin America and among Latin American immigrants to other countries. Dpf90 (talk) 06:22, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I have never heard of this being celebrated in Italy, or in Italian communities. I have removed these categories. - AKeen (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

not all latin american countries celebrate quinceañera

In Chile when a girl turns 15 the celebration is just like any other year —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.83.23.204 (talk) 06:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Major Influence was French?

I don't understand the Cuba section of this article where it says the quince anos party came to Cuba partly through Spain but the major influence was FRENCH?! The history section suggests the origins are latin american not european and certainly not french!?KingOfAfrica 20:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Cuba had indigenous black people before Spain and France arrived.

REALLY? How come did they come from Africa. In "balsa"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.210 (talk) 05:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This needs to be looked into. The indigenous people in Cuba were largely wiped out. Because of this, I doubt that most of their traditions were able to survive and have the popularity quinces do with Cubans (in Cuba and S. Florida). Basically, how did the quince tradition come to Cuba?

Older Comments

I just listened to an NPR program that reported that this tradition has no origin in Aztec culture, and was in fact taken from the Bat Mitzvah. Anyone have any substantive citations for this article that can either confirm or refute? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.24.83 (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Taking into consideration that Latinos are predominantly Catholic & other kinds of Christian, I wonder why they would create a ceremony based upon the Bat Mitzvah, when Catholicism(& some other Christian Churches) have Confirmation ceremonies for both girls & boys.--Splashen (talk) 02:20, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

amazingly, the spanish wikipedia doesn't have an article on this subject! Numerao 14:47, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Probably because to alot of the spanish speakers, they just know what it is. Rab 07:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

As of June 2006, eswiki does have an article: a translation of ours! Melchoir 20:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, everybody make that celebration so everybody know what it is. But yeah I will improve the spanish article and maybe the english one. I also get some pics when its my sis 15 birthday, next february ;) But at least here in colombia the ceremony is very similar to the destription on eswiki about the one in argentina, except for the breakfast with beer at that time people eat caldo de costilla which, when you are drunk or with hangover is know as levantamuertos--ometzit<col> 03:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

The article was fundamentally non-NPOV and unsourced. A blank slate offers better opportunities for development. Deltabeignet (talk) 07:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I tried to make some changes that to make it more NPOV, and more "encyclopedic" than before. I do not have access to the sources this article truly needs. I hope others can make further edits that both clarify the information as well as keep the article factually (rather than emotionally) grounded. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

There is plenty of bibliographic references in google-books; see for example [1].--148.247.14.10 (talk) 19:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization of "quinceañera"

This article uses inconsistent capitalization of the word quinceañera. Which is right, quinceañera or Quinceañera? In all the YA novels I used to read it always used a lowercase q, and my friends all used a lowercase q in their quinces invitations. This article uses both upper and lowercase q. Which is correct? --- cymru.lass ^{(hit me up)}⁄_{(background check)} 06:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

While I'm no expert, I believe that the books and your friends are correct, and everything should be in lowercase (except at the start of sentences, of course). I'll go change all of those now, actually. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:29, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

All right, thank you! I'd have just gone ahead and done it myself, but I wanted to confirm first. --- cymru.lass ^{(hit me up)}⁄_{(background check)} 00:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

What about boys?

I was born in El Salvador but I can't remember whether boys get a similar party? Is it at 16th? If there is, can we link to it from this article?

In Latino cultures, a woman's virginity is a valued commodity, so celebrations such as the "quinceañera" are intended to portrait the (presumed) virginity of the girl in front of the society, to maximize her chances of finding a suitable partner. Note that even the dress and the ceremony are conspicuously similar to the ones of a wedding. On the other hand, boys are expected to prove their ability to "perform" before they can be considered fully grown men. For this reason, initiation rituals for boys are usually carried over in more "private" settings. Refer to the wikipedia article on Virginity for more information.

What are the boys' ceremony or rite of passage called?--Splashen (talk) 02:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

desvirgamiento. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.206 (talk) 21:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay then. Since there is no big celebration for a boy's birthday in Latin America, & Quinceanera celebrations include a Holy Mass for the girls, why not allow girls to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation on their Quinceanera, & just continue to have boys all Confirmed together.--Splashen (talk) 04:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Please note that this is not the place to discuss the topic of "Quinceañeras". This page may only be used to discuss improvements to the article itself, per WP:NOTFORUM. Thanks. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay. I'm sorry.  :-) --Splashen (talk) 21:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Intent to significantly trim

Just a warning to any editors watching: I intend, in a week or two, to remove any information which is not verified by sources. This is because I strongly suspect that most of it is based on personal experience, which may or may not reflect a broad view of the subject. Of course, retaining sourced info would be better, but I think that most of this currently falls under WP:OR. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Since the peninsulares don't practice it, why is the pronunciation in Peninsular Spanish? Shouldn't it be "kinseanera" (I can't add the palatal nasal)?Qwed117 (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

First in USA was in Laredeo in 1990s?

The document states that the first quinceañeras in the US were held in Laredo in the 1990s. Where is that coming from? I've lived my whole life in South Texas and can guarantee you we had quinceañeras before the 1990s. Perhaps they weren't as popular or common, but they were held. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.212.40 (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

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Not in Spain

As far as I know, this tradition is currently unknown in Spain. Maybe in older times it was celebrated, but not anymore. The puesta de largo (presenting the daughters to society in their first evening dress (?) was limitted to high society

The quinceanera orginated in Mexico.

Does anyone have any evidence (either from a published history or even a family photograph) indicating that quinceañeras were celebrated anywhere before the 1940s? I have seen family photos of quinceañeras from the mid-1940s (Cuba) but not earlier, and after talking with lots of people in Mexico I still have not heard of quinceañeras from earlier years. If it were an older custom, you might think it would turn up in 19th century literature, for example. It seems to me that this celebration may have begun rather suddenly as a fad (in the 1940s??), but it quickly caught on and became an instant "tradition" complete with elaborate rituals (in that sense, sort of like the senior prom in U.S. high schools). --Potosino 02:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

My Great-Aunt celebrated her quinceanera in San Diego, CA in 1929. She told me about it many times. Musicians were hired for the event.

As it has been stated "Quinceañera" is not clebrated in any part of Spain or Portugal, therefore I have removed the sentence that indicated so in the introduction. 90.173.180.217 (talk) 18:08, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

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Please Fix

The entire article is not functioning properly here, please fix it it, thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.67.128.85 (talk) 16:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

I am from Mexico City, it did not originate from Spain. The ritual is precolumbian and it is a party that is unknown to creoles. My Mother, grandmother and so on...never had this party...this is the case from either side of the family. This party is usually performed by the Meztizo or Indigenous Mexicans only. To your surprise Creole families never celebrate the day of the dead either.

"party is usually performed by the Meztizo or Indigenous Mexicans only. To your surprise Creole families never celebrate the day of the dead either" Not entirely true, Indigenous people do not usually celebrate this. They do not uphold this kind of traditions.

Indigenous people did celebrate this ritual. It was a ritual for "girls" when they became women. It had to do with menses and their new ability to reproduce. Most indigenous peoples separated childbearing women from the rest of the tribe during their cycle. This celebration told the tribe who was considered women and they received certain liberties due to the new cycle.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Quincea%C3%B1era"

This page contains the most cryptic sentence I've ever seen in Wikipedia. I quote from the Puerto Rico section: "After eating, the modern music plays an apple pie."

The apple was symbolic of being able to bear fruit. A literal translation is off mark.

Someone decipher that, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.112.217.145 (talk) 22:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a poet, but I guess it means "Apple being a symbol of the ability to bear children." Also, an apple split in half looks somewhat similar to a womb.I am looking fo my adoptive son Eduardo Espindola, I am currently searching the bay area. Please help me.

186.109.99.75 (talk) 00:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)== "Quinces" redirects here? ==

Why does the plural of the fruit "quince" redirect here? I read through the article and didn't see any mention of "quinces", yet if you look up, say, "apples", it redirects to the fruit "apple". Could someone change it so that "quinces" is redirected to the fruit?

Maybe because quinceañeras are as sweet as quince fruits! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.210 (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"Quince" (Spanish pronunciation: [kinse]) means fifteen in Spanish. It has nothing to do with the fruit, and nothing to do with quinceañeras being sweet. 186.109.99.75 (talk) 00:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

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Cost in 2020?

In "Changes over the years", it says

   In 2020, the cost of a modest, traditional quinceañera was estimated as approximately US$500–600.

It's not clear what the "2020" reference is supposed to be. 1920? 2000? 2002?

Just wanted to flag this for attention/review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.42.225 (talk) 00:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

It was vandalized. Thanks for bringing it up. Opencooper (talk) 06:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

In the 1960's, a quinceanera cost $400, but in 2020, it cost $600? I'm not buying that at all. This is illogical considering the rate of inflation over the last sixty years. Either that, or families of the same social standing gave much more elaborate parties sixty years ago than they do today, which I doubt. GnatFriend (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Practices in the United States?

This section claims that books for quinceanera planning published in the United States were originally all published in Spanish, but over the years, English-language ones are becoming popular too. The claim is made that this shows that Hispanic customs are penetrating into the non-Hispanic population. I find that claim dubious. Rather, I think it more likely attributable to the fact that many Hispanic Americans are becoming monolingual in English. GnatFriend (talk) 22:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)