Talk:Rabaa massacre/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

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August 2013 Rabaa Massacre → Rabaa Massacre – I don't see any reason for the inclusion of the month and year in the title. --Relisted. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 13:45, 3 June 2014 (UTC) Charles Essie (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - There was an earlier incident on July 27, 2013, that is widely called the "Rabaa massacre".[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] I think Rabaa and Nahda massacres would be more appropriate in this case, since no such event occurred in those 2 locations at the same time as far as we know. And as you can see, I also oppose capitalizing "massacre" regardless of other stuff since few or no RS do so and I don't see it on MOS:CAPS either. However, I came here with the intention of making a different move request to Raids on the Rabaa and Nahda sit-ins before I saw this one, so I guess I'll have to wait for now till we're done with this RM. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 10:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
• Support (provisional) per WP:PRECISION this is an unneeded precision, there isn't a Rabaa massacre every now and then. Otherwise, I believe we can think of better titles, that avoid loaded words such as massacre and probably something that encompasses all the violent protest breakup that happened post-coup. --Tachfin (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• Important note: I hope we don't ignore the fact that the same clashes took place in another sit-in in Al-Nahda Square (or simply Nahda Square), which is 12km away from Rabaa and where a significant number of people were also killed. I agree, there isn't a Rabaa massacre every now and then, there were just two of them. Both are regarded as massacres by many people (although this is still far from being close to WP:COMMONNAME) and 120-200+ were killed in the July 27 clashes, which isn't minor but doesn't necessarily classify it as a massacre of course. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Right of reply: Nationality of Anglo-Araneophilus

WP:NOTFORUM This place is for the article's improvement only.

It has been claimed in this discussion, that I am Turkish (of nationality, origin, identity or whatelse - not specified). It also has been claimed that being Turkish disqualifies one to act as an author here. Therefore I solemnly affirm that I am German in all respects. I also declare that I respect Turkish culture and disrespect people who pretend to be what they aren't and that I am sorry for all victims of stupidity and recklessness. And I continue declaring, that in my opinion Turkish nationality or origin or identity does not result in inexpediency for editing this article, but irregular (mis)use of source references does. --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 03:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC) This is going to be a side-note out of the main discussion, a friendly, personal "lets-not-act-dumb" note: Not only I assumed you are Turkish (or attached to Turkish culture in some way, whatever it may be), not only you but also 2 other guys who had the same opinion were too (spoke Turkish, and edited Turkish wiki). Of course you have the right to edit the article, which I believe is common, I'd even go as far as expecting a lot of Turkish people editing Egyptian articles on here recently, which is of course okay as much okay as a Russian editing articles about Ukraine for example. Egyptian-Turkish relations recently have been bad, because Turkey (and lets be frank I don't like people who act dumb, unless they are) supports the Muslim Brotherhood and that resulted in cutting ties with Egypt. That also comes back to Qatar. And following twitter, a huge amount of Turks every few days create #hashtags about the Egyptian situation, which I find cute, because I might be the only Egyptian knowing about, because really no one follows Turkish news in here. I don't need to source this note's opinion, because I'm not writing an article, but any person who understands Turkish would probably know how Turkish Islamists view Egyptian recent popular changes, however our opinions of it might be. It's like finding 2 or 3 Russians editing Ukrainian articles right after what happened recently, it would make anyone wonder, wouldn't it? Especially if they keep changing the names of controversial events to "The Coup of Ukraine", or the "Freeing of Crimea from Ukrainian Oppression", which are biased Russian propaganda, not valid in Wikipedia. A neutral worldwide encyclopedia. / I repeat: this is a friendly side note, not related to the main topic, just to clarify how personalization of opinions, which you enjoy very much and repeat in all your comments, means. M 197.163.69.48 (talk) 06:48, 10 July 2014 (UTC) First you say I am Turkish, now you suppose me to belong to "Turkish Islamists", did I understand you right? Who practices "personalization of opinions" here? What did I wrote about your intentions and opinions. Please refer to my sources and discussion and don't try to project your ideas of nationalities in technical debate about the subject. If you see problems concerning "Turkish Islamists" or "Russian" users, better address them, not me. I try to show, how some authors in this artcle use sources in incorrect manner to determine a euphemistic lemma. Whatever their reasons, motives or cultural/national backgrounds are (I don't know and I don't speculate about that). If my German nationality and background isn't of interest here, why do you calling me Turkish then or comparing my argues with Russian propaganda? What is your point. If you click the link of the song I gave above you will find a Turkish socialist Alevi YouTube video, showing that Turkish background does not determine a pro-coup or anti-coup position concerning the coup in Egypt. Turkey is split (at leat in two, probably in quite more parts) according to that event. In Germany, indeed Guido Westerwelle called the mass killing of August 14 "Blutbad" (this is quite near to "massacre"), but to think I am biased therefore would be quite simple, don't you think? I am not biased. I am not pro-Muslim Brotherhood, and I am not pro-Turkish or pro-Russian or whatever you may believe or suggest. I am pro-science and pro-source-related-work in WP. That's what is important for me. --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 10:22, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

When you hide my right of reply with this edit: does it mean, Fitzcarmalan, everyone can state in this discussion that I am Turkish and I have no right to explain here I am not? --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 10:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC) + --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 10:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Your right of reply concerns you and the editors who accuse you, not this page. The same goes for anyone else of course. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll survive being called "Turkish" in "this page" (what you did not hide). Anyway actually it's no shame at all to be called "Turkish". In contrast it is a shame indeed to be one-sided. But it seems, you don't see any problems with that, even though asserting the opposite. --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 06:01, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Right of reply: Nationality of User:Usaeedi

WP:NOTFORUM This place is for the article's improvement only.
IP 197.163.18.204 talk you have blamed in the article calling me a Turkish. Though I wouldn't mind being called any nationality you want but I am a proud Afghan. Regarding sock puppet being connected with me, I won't waste much of my time on this but please note that I had used a public computer which might have caused it. Anyways it is blocked now. --Usaeedi (talk) 07:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

When will this have an end, Fitzcarmalan? I don't know if Usaeedi mind, when you turn the course of this discussion into its opposite, but I do. You know exactly, and everyone can see this in this discussion, that someone - using an IP (here or here) - who shares your argumentation in nearly every single detail by the way - spent much emphasis in stating, that those authors, who used or supported the term "massacre" for the mass killing of August 2014 (instead of your preferred "dispersal" or whatever the recent choice shall be) has to be "Turkish" (don't blame me, when I can't reflect those confused ideas in the same way, but they are even lacking a lower limit of consistency). Now he - same as you do - is stating, that those who have been called "Turkish" misuse this discussion by mentioning their nationality. But when you read the discussion no one argued with his nationality, no one but this/these IP(s). And you are the one, who says we have to use the terms, that are used by Egyptians and in Egypt. If "no one cares about anyone's nationality on a Wikipedia talk page" as you stated then, why didn't you hide or comment or even condemned those absurd ideas of this IP, who was stating for several times here, that I am Turkish and who compares me with other users, he stated to be Turkish as well? Try to understand people don't want to get defamed, Fitzcarmalan. Try to understand, they have got interest to get informed. Don't play admin here, instructing authors what to say and what not. Every person has a right to reject imaginary claims about their private affairs. In case the IP's claim was that user Usaeedi is Turkish (and therefore is biased or whatever the IP tried to prove with that claim), and it isn't founded, then his responding explanation was much more authorised just here in place than all of your edits in this discussion and article, which attast a indefensible and continuous irregular use of sources in this topic. I don't think, you are in the position to teach someone commendable editing here that way. --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC) + --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 08:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with user Anglo-Araneophilus why are you not requesting the IP 197.163.18.204 to stop attacks on personality of another user Mr. Fitzcarmalan? I also made the sock puppet issue clear here. In Afghanistan we normally use one or two IPs in a large office have tens of computers connected to Internet through satellite connection. --Usaeedi (talk) 05:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)