Talk:Races in The Legend of Zelda series/Archive 1

Archive 1

Gerudo/Twili

Now, I get putting in a reference to the Zora/Rito and Kokiri/Korok things - the game bluntly says that one is a descendent of the other. However, the blatant OR in any Gerudo/Twili rumor, until Nintendo actually puts out something saying that "Gerudo A is the ancestor of Twili B" needs to f'ing stop. It's been removed over and over, and people need to f'ing think.

It's last incarnation also has several things badly wrong with it. First of all, the male dynamic isn't merely a lack of them - there is a process that makes one appear ONLY every 100 years. They can still produce males, it's just that there species doesn't need them. By logic, they never did - in fact, when they appear in other games that have no connection to the Twilight Realm (Majora's Mask, Four Swords Adventures) THERE ARE STILL NO MALES (barring Ganondorf, the "annual" male, of course). What's also important about the symbol on Zant - it's the same symbol on Onox and Veran, and they both say that they are demons from the Dark World, NOT Gerudo. Given that the symbol is also featured on all of the traps and switches in OoT (presumably, the Gerudo didn't have the ability to get into the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu to set all these traps without anyone noticing), it is much more likely that it is a symbol for darkness and evil in the Zelda world, or at the very least, the more sinister aspects. Thus, while it is associated with the Gerudo, it is a more widely used symbol - just like the Hylians and the Triforce. Plus, that's not the Twili symbol, anyway. It's interesting that Zant has something SIMILAR to the Gerudo mask-emblem, but the Twili symbol is the three concentric circles with the bar seen on the doors and the map.

So, in summary, while it's nice to THEORIZE about such things, and no matter how much the games may HINT at it, it is not appropriate to put it on wikipedia. If there was a blatant statement like in TWW, fine, but there isn't.128.211.254.142 18:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Koroks in Twilight Princess?

Maybe something should be said about the little wooden dummy-like creatures with the leaves on their faces that are in the sacred grotto? They seem very similar to the koroks, anyone agree?--205.209.66.117 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No? Since they're wooden puppets operated by the Skull Kid? And they're official name is Mannequins?128.211.254.142 18:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Previous Zelda game Twili references?

Agahnim, from Link to the Past, mentions in your first meeting with him that he is a member of the "Tribe of Evil". Also, In Majora's Mask, the mask is said (by the Happy Mask Salesman, I believe) to be a tool of an ancient tribe who used it for evil. Should these be mentioned in the Twili section, and Agahnim and Majora be added to notable Twili? 4.239.42.33 01:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hm, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Races_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zuna , it's mentioned that the many similarities between the Zuna and the Twili, and Agahnim's resemblance to the Zuna. Hm. 4.239.42.33 02:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The Tribe of Evil (also called the Dark Tribe) also seems to refer to Moblins, Darknuts, and Theives in this game. Is it possible that this is all it means? As for Majora's Mask - The Fused Shadows are said to be the total compilation of their threat - thus Majora's Mask cannot be one of theirs.

Clean up

Am I the only one annoyed by how the page looks currently? There's a lot of repitition, there's too much difference between the articles, some stuff is completely unnecessary (Gorons don't have to be described per game like "Gorons in The Wind Waker"), the evolution thing shouldn't be in the Zora article, etc. This page need a clean-up which I'm gonna start now. If no one comes with a suggestion of how this page should be/look, I'm going to do things completely my way (what choice do I have apart from not changing the article at all).DreamingLady 19:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. The sections need to be a bit more homogenized, i.e., each section should contain 1) society, which would contain tidbits on the traditions, politics, religion, history, language, economics, and culture of the given race (not necessarily ALL of those; only those that are important in the games); 2) appearance/biology, giving an overview of -- well DUH -- appearance/biology along with special abilities of the race (this could also include the "Types of Minish" subsection); and finally, 3) notable members of the race, containing a list of just that. Also, discrepancies across games such as "Gorons in The Wind Waker" do not warrant their own subsections (as noted by DreamingLady). They should be smoothly integrated into the aforementioned 1,2, and 3 subsections. Also, why is the Hylian section entitled "Hylia"? The region is called Hylia. The race are Hylians. (Sausagerooster 07:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

I just thought of something else, which was: all the race sections should include some mention of the given race's preferred environment. This may fall under "Society" or "Biology", depending on the race. (Sausagerooster 07:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

No, the region is called "Hyrule", the race is called as a whole "the Hylia", or in parts "Hylians".KrytenKoro 03:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. (Sausagerooster 05:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

Hylians are not elves

Unlike elves, Hylians live as long as humans,are much more down to earth and they are outright called humans in the twilight princess. Calling a Hylian an elf, is like saying elves are vulcans. Delsait

I agree with removing the reference to elves. DreamingLady

yes, they're just people with pointy ears. Chutup 10:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

However, Kokiri are definitely elves.

Elf (as of Tolkien, not Norse) - Highly civilized being with long life, telepathic/prophetic powers, and exponentially greater skill in magic and artisanship than humans. Not mere Peter-Pan copyists. Question: What humans are you comparing their lifespans to? Not that it matters, as either way you're wrong - the games never give a standard timespan for either race, nor do they compare the too - they never even notice that Humans are not the same as Hylians (at most, that the powers of the race have dwindled). So, as of Tolkien, they ARE elves. Of course, the term doesn't exist within Legend of Zelda, so it's a moot point either way. But the Kokiri are definitely NOT elves. They may be whatever the hell Tom Bombadil is, or Ents, but Elves have never been described as mere spirits (at least, no in the myths or Tolkein), just a different type of people.

Kokiri unlike Hylians actually are immortal,they may be that similar to Tolkien's elves but they are certainly based off western elves and it has been clearly shown that Hylians age at the same rate as humans. Tolkien's elves are also physically perfect and resistant to greed,Hylians clearly are not. Delsait 00:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Again - no. Have you actually read the Lord of the Rings books? The elves are not forest sprites - they are the most developed race.

As for elves being immune to greed - again, read the books. Greed is the whole reason they are even in Middle Earth. The Kokiri are forest sprites, pure and simple. They neither fit the original elf myths, nor Tolkien's. The Hylians are quite close to Tolkien elves, especially the greater magical power, gifts of prophecy and telepathy, etc. As for aging - Even tolkien elves are not children for long. For the FEW characters who age in the series (let's see, Link, Malon, and Zelda, ONLY), they have not become ageridden - they are in the prime of their youth. That's what elves do to - stay in the prime of youth, not stay childlike forever. There is a difference.128.211.254.142 07:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Elves are physically perfect,they will never die of old age. You'd never find an elven clown in Tolkien or deformed elves. The greater power over magic is only mentioned in the American manual and never compared to that of humans ingame. The vast majority Hylians lack the ability to use magic altogether.

Lenzo a hylian is also said be in his 60s and he looks his age. Tingle is a hylian and he is in his 30s and also looks his age. Minenco a hylian in her 60s looks her age. Kokiri and Minish are excatly like European elves and there is really no similarity between Hylians and elves besides the ears. Hylians are easily to relate to,they have same flaws we do,elves are divine and detached from humans due to their near perfection. Delsait 22:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, go and actually read the Silmarillian or something. As for deformed elves - the series says that that is EXACTLY what Orcs are, and there are still elves that let greed get the better of them. Even in the movie, Galadriel illustrated that this was a clear possibility.

And are there any deformed Hylians?

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry - There is one more character in the series who ages, Ruto. While elves are immortal - they age to their adult stage and stay there. They do not change from childhood to adulthood longer.

Kokiri and Minish - DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT EUROPEAN ELVES?! Those are FOREST SPRITES and pixies you are thinking of. NOT ELVES. Hell, European Fairies weren't even tiny winged people - they were merely mischievous magical people that were vicious and even human sized.

Greater power over magic? Zelda's telepathy, Zelda's prophecy, Zelda being able to break barriers, even in games in which she is not a chosen one. The Hylians created the Magic Cape, the Canes, brewed the Magic Potions. The Whirling Blade technique is a magical one, and Link ( A HYLIAN!) uses magic proficienlty in many games. The merchant in Wind Waker sells the magic armor, the ancient Hylians built most of the temples - these are very magical people. The fact that they have also embraced technology does not detract from that. Tingle looks his age? He's 3 feet tall. He doesn't look very much like a 30 year old to me. Lenzo's age is never specified, and Minenco's isn't either. It does say she was a contest winner almost 40 years ago - but it doesn't say what her age was when she won. As for Hylians having the same flaws we do - except for the very rare cases such as Ingo, who actually shows this? And for elves being perfect - they're not. The ONLY thing that makes them better is that they can live forever if they choose, and many of them had lived in the Far West, where they were taught by the gods. Their own sins got them thrown out, and a good bit of them worked voluntarily for Sauron and Morgoth. While Hylian is not necessarily elves, it is still heavily based on it, just like Fairies are based off of the Shakespearean fairies, and Kokiri are based off of driads and sprites. Gorons based off of trolls, zoras (and mermaids) based off of mermaids, Moblins based off of cloven-hooved demons, etc. It's supposed to have a medieval/greek/elizabethan feel. With a hint of Tolkien, I guess.128.211.254.142 05:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Orcs are no longer elves,there are no elves born ugly,orcs only became that way due to extensive experimentation by Melkor. Examples of Deformed Hylians include Dampe,Grog,Fyer,Tingle and many more. Clearly Hylians can be born deformed,elves can't. As for Hylians with flaws let see Talon,the knights in service of Ganon in a link to the past,Grog,the carpenters,windmill muscian,that nasty doctor,I can go on and on on Hylians with flaws. If Tingle was in elf he would look to be in his twenties. Minenco's description seems to indicate she was in her prime fourty years ago,if she was an elf,it would have said 4000 years ago. Heck if she was an elf she wouldn't have aged at all. As for the magic thing,you can't really compare the skills of Zelda and the sages to your average hylian. Many humans are expert architects but on the other hand more people aren't expert architects. Finally I don't even think Miyamoto read Lord of the rings. Delsait 06:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Dampe isn't Hylian. He doesn't even have the ears. Grog is hardly deformed - he's just given himself a mohawk. Same with Fyer - he's eaten enough to get Fat. Hyrule is much more advanced than Middle-Earth, they have a better economic situation. Tingle, as the Rose-colored whatever game shows, isn't Hylian either. Even if he was, he's crazy, not deformed. As for elves not being able to be deformed - anything can be given scars or changed.

And you want to know why not every Hylian is blond-haired blue-eyed "perfect race" like in the LotR MOVIE (oh, guess what, even a good number of the elves in the movies are imperfect)? Because the series has variety and is allowed to design its own characters. It can still heavily base them on mythological creatures.

Flaws - how about starting wars in heaven, pledging to serve under Melkor, etc? The Knights in service to Ganon - those were Darknuts, not Hylians. The Carpenters? WTH? The elves aren't angelic beings either. If you're going to be as technical as saying "oh, they took a cookie from the cookie jar when they were little", then the elves in Tolkien have made mistakes too. None of them are perfect, they just have had a lot more experience than the Humans. Tingle - again, he doesn't "look" like he's any age especially. Hell, he hardly even "looks" 30, like MM says he is (a game, I might add, which only holds one Hylian - Link). If the game's don't actually assign an age, don't make yourself look silly by making one up, like you did with Minenco - it doesn't say she was in her prime, it says she won a beauty contest 40 years ago. In fact, it goes on to say that she is still the most beautiful girl on the island (or at least, that no one on the island could beat her in the contest). Skills of Zelda and the sages - how about Zunari, the myriad old men in AoL, Shad, Link (even in games where he had no Triforce).

"Many humans are expert architects but on the other hand more people aren't expert architects." The same applies to Tolkien, even more so - the elves had a lot of capacity for magical ability, they almost never actually used it. "Finally I don't even think Miyamoto read Lord of the rings." This is one of the most meaningless things to say in a discussion - did he or didn't he? Even if he didn't, would it really be that hard to figure out what the current picture of elves, dwarves, and other mythological creatures is?

"The Hylians are the favored race of the Goddesses. It was they who were blessed with the ability to wage the most impressive of magics, to use telepathy, and with pointed ears so that they might hear the words of the Goddesses themselves." 128.211.254.142 07:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Dampe is a hylian. He has pointy ears. Just look at this sprite sheet. http://spriters-resource.com/nintendo/zelda/mc/display.php?file=http://www.spriters-resource.com/nintendo/zelda/mc/mc_royal.gif. Unlike Elves Hylians can suffer from disease and phyiscal deformity. Grog is pale with a skeletal physique and a large nose definetly not the traditional view of beauty. Fyer has a very sunken face,even if he wasn't fat he wouldn't be considered handsome and his assistant has a very long nose. As for tingle in Majoras mask he is definetly a hylian or the terminean equivalent,just look at his dad.

"The Knights in service to Ganon - those were Darknuts" I wasn't reffering to darknuts,I was referring to the knights in a link to the past who were brainwashed.

"The Carpenters? WTH?"

The carpenters were lazy and attempted to become theives. 

"Skills of Zelda and the sages - how about Zunari, the myriad old men in AoL, Shad, Link" Just because there are many talented doesn't mean that its in their own blood to be naturally good at magic. Besides I was always under the impression that sheikah were the talented magicians.

"with pointed ears so that they might hear the words of the Goddesses themselves so that they might hear the words of the Goddesses themselves." can't argue with that.

"Besides I was always under the impression that sheikah were the talented magicians." Well, you're wrong about that. That's about as simple as it gets.

"I wasn't reffering to darknuts,I was referring to the knights in a link to the past who were brainwashed."

I know which knights you are referring to, they are called Darknuts, just like in all of the 2D games.

"However, he later wrote that Elves and Men develop physically at the same rate until maturity, but then Elven bodies slow down and stop aging physically, while human bodies don't."

"Tolkien's Elves are sometimes perceived as androgynous; however, they were probably not meant to be so, since Christopher Tolkien recounts that his father wrote the following "wrathful" comment protesting against a "pretty" or "ladylike" depiction of Legolas:

"He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship." (The Book of Lost Tales Volume 2)"

"The trip to Lórien furthers the perception that most Elves live in trees and carry bows, while we learn from Tolkien's other writings that his Elves were just as likely to live in caves (Menegroth, Nargothrond, and the halls of Thranduil in Mirkwood) and mountain fortresses (Gondolin), and the Noldor are known for their mighty swords, the Vanyar for their spears, and the Sindar were known to use axes (sometimes thought to be restricted to Dwarves). However, Elves were closer to nature than Men were, though not in the same way as popularized in other fantasy worlds such as that of Dungeons & Dragons."

- It's called the Fairy's Bow for a reason.

"It should be noted that Tolkien's Elves differ greatly from elfs of older folklore, as well as most modern fantasy elves. Aside from their different bodies and life cycle, his Elves were very much human, if "Unfallen"."

"Elves sometimes appear to age under great stress. Círdan appeared to be aged himself, since he is described as looking old, save for the stars in his eyes; this may be due to all the sorrows he had seen and lived through since the First Age. Also, the people of Gwindor of Nargothrond had trouble recognizing him after his time as a prisoner of Morgoth."

Now, the Norse myths do call them the "Fair people" - even then, it is recognized that their are variations in beauty, even to the point of being ugly to the eyes.

The tolkien myths, as far as I can see, never actually say that the elves are necessarily beautiful - just that they are immortal, and generally wiser due to their experience. In fact, tolkien also goes over the fact that Galadriel and Arwen are the most beautiful - there are degrees to any beauty the elves possess.

It must also be taken into account that the term "fair of skin" basically means that they were Caucasian. Not necessarily beautiful, at all.

It doesn't matter though. I know I spent too much time arguing on this, it's just that the arguments that the Kokiri were elves and that the Hylians had nothing to do with elves were very wrong. However, Hylians are not elves - at most, it could be mentioned that they are based on elves, but that would be about it. Sorry to take so much time arguing.128.211.177.68 01:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, also, all of the Swiftblade brothers can perform a possession technique. And the magical songs and stuff that even people like Malon can compose. Plus, the magical masks that everyone seems familar enough with. And the magic rings. Just wanted to mention that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.177.68 (talk) 01:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Kokri are actually like european elves,they are forever young,can't leave their forest,and are innoccent. As for your comment knights in the link past being darknut,don't you remember in the begginning you could have conversations with them and they mentioned they were slowly being brainwashed. They were just brainwashed armored hylians. Finally Hylians have been called humans loads of times and in the Tingle rpg there is an elf as a body guard and he is short and buck teethed. Delsait 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, since you still apparently haven't actually done any research - the original European elves, before the Grimm brothers and all that crap, and the ones Tolkien based most of his elf-basis on, were the Norse version. And those ones were NOT bound to forests, nor where they innocent - they were basically the viking version of angels, living in Asgard and Upper-Earth (yes, Tolkien based his story on Norse, that's why it's called Middle-Earth). Finally, both Tolkien and Norse elves could grow beards, so they don't look like teenagers forever (in fact, eternal youth would be after teenage, when adulthood is reached and beards ARE growing).

As for LttP: Not only does the term "brainwashed" or even, "brain" never appear in LttP, but the enemies are LITERALLY CALLED DARKNUTS. Get over it. The closest thing to what you want is: "I am certain the castle soldiers are looking for you and the princess now!" or "If you defeat the wizard, the castle soldiers may regain their senses." However, the enemy is called a Darknut. The same sprite is used in other 2D Zelda games, and it is called a Darknut. I'm sorry. As for the "Hylians called humans" bit - so are all of the humanoid tribes, pretty much only Gorons are excluded. Gerudo, Shiekah, even Zora if I remember correctly. Would you really expect the game characters to say "Hylians are based off of the legends about Elves in Norse and Tolkien mythology."? 74.140.118.84 13:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't be dumb the guards in Link to the past were never called darknuts. In the beggining of the game you can even have a conversation with one who says their being brainwashed. You can also seem them in the ending of the game when Ganon is defeated. They are called guards or knights not darknuts. Let me break it down for you. Knights in a LTP=brainwashed hylian knights,Darknuts= creatures that work willingly for Ganon. And Zoras were never ever called humans. Hylians are called humans too much for it to be mere typo. The closest thing to Tolkien's elves in Zelda is the sheikah and thats also a stretch. Delsait 22:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't actually read my arguments, do you? The official given name for the monster (obviously monster names were not in the game, they're in guides and such) was Darknut. It also has exactly the same sprite as Darknuts in FSA, which is heavily based on LttP. Do you have ANY source for your claims? That's what I thought.

And no, Darknuts are just knight class enemies. They need not work willingly, especially not for Ganon - in TMC, for example, the Darknuts work for nobody but themselves.

For example, in LA: "Link's Awakening

They next appeared in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, as much weaker versions of their past selves. These are called Soldiers in the English version, but their Japanese names are still Darknuts."

Or the ones that look exactly like the LttP enemies: "Four Swords & Four Swords Adventures

Darknuts next appear in The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords and The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures as an occasional miniboss."

As for humans - Humans in general are called humans in TP. All the humanoid tribes are also collectively called humans in other Zelda games, too. IT's not something strictly Hylian, as I said earlier. "MALO ...They went that way. The rest is up to you, Link...

Human legs...too slow to catch monkeys..." Malo is not a Hylian.

"ORDONIAN FROG #2 To humans, this must seem like just an average country town, but to us, it's paradise! You should take a good look around this town... You may see stuff sparkling brightly...or you may not, depending on how good your senses are." The Ordonians are not Hylians.

The many cases where Midna uses it? Referring to Link being a beast, not a humanoid anymore.

"GORON #1 Ugh... Why do I have to stand guard... The ladder is destroyed, so it is not like any humans will come up... And what is with the elders? If we have a problem the humans can help with, we should ask. It is better than suffering for the sake of pride.

Repelling humans by force... What a depressing job... Must keep humans out..." Gorons are not humanoid. The Kakarikons are also not Hylian.

"In this shadow realm...of twilight...the insects...are invisible...like the humans...of this world..." Used to refer to all who are spirits in Twilight.

As for Zoras - you seem to be right, there is one instance in the game where it differentiates between humans and Zoras.

"The closest thing to Tolkien's elves in Zelda is the sheikah and thats also a stretch." You mean the one Shiekah that appears in the games, and acts nothing like mythological or Tolkien elves?

Again - Elves have elongated ears (check). Elves are closer to the gods than normal humans (both Tolien and Norse) (Check, this is part of the definition of Hylian). They are fair-skinned (for the most part, check. I'm pretty sure there are no dark-skinned Hylians in the games). They have greater magical powers than normal humans (check again, normal humans in the games (round ears) have almost no magical abilities. Furthermore, the ears are specifically to allow them telepathy (whether they know how to use it is something else), and Zelda, the premiere Hylian, is also gifted with prophecy). For Norse elves, immortality came not from natural ability but from consistently eating the apples of youth, and for Tolkien, it could be given or taken away - killing was also an easily viable option (Check - we never see any Hylians pass away naturally, it is always murder). As for beards, and other signs of age - even elves may show these, both in Tolkien and Norse. While they never become DECREPIT, they can still have beards, or look in other ways as Gandalf did. In fact, many thought that Gandalf WAS an elf, so it is very possible for elves to look as aged as he does. Lastly, Tolkien elves are more highly advanced than the other races, and are the ones who developed civilization and artisanship (check, Hylians were the ones who civilized Hyrule, and set up the most technological systems - for example the irrigation in OoT, and the temples and libraries of other games).

And no, Zelda is only a sage in three games. She still has the gift of prophecy in the others, so there you go.

YES, the Hylians are not elves - but the zora are also not mermaids (even Rutela), the gorons are not rock trolls/giants, the Shiekah are not dark elves, and the Kokiri are not forest sprites - because those terms do not exist in the Zelda World (at least, I'm fairly certain that "Sprite" does not exist. No beverage factories seem to exist yet). However, the fact that they are based on these mythological creatures is heavily apparent in most cases, and it would be fair to say that their basic design is based on that of the creature.128.211.178.122 14:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I win! Here:

"According to Shigeru Miyamoto, the Links are elves. However, it's not because they have pointy ears. Mr. Spock from Star Trek has pointy ears, but is he an elf?" ~http://www.htloz.net/archives/htloz/2000-2001/history/continuity_faq.html

"Hylians

Hylians are an elf-like race of people who first established an ordered civilization in Hyrule. Famous Hylians include Princess Zelda and Link. The Hylians' long, sculpted ears enable them to hear special messages. As the chosen people, they are also given unique psychic and magical abilities. Traditional Hyrulean dress is simple and functional. Men belt leather jerkins at the waist, and women slip into straight, ankle-length gowns. Although simple of design, Hyrulean dresses and tunics are often embellished with brightly colored, hand-stitched borders that make them look almost festive."~http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/h.jsp

"Miyamoto has gone from goofy gorillas, chubby plumbers, and green elves to long-tongued dinosaurs and flying foxes."~http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=271

I'll see if I can find more - that pretty much verifies it, though, so the discussion is over. If you can find just one official source that says that Link (and Hylians) are not elves, that would help your argument, but so far it's consisted of "la la la, I'm not listening", while I post stuff from the article on elves and from the official nintendo sites.128.211.178.122 15:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Even if guards are refered to as darknuts they are clearly not the same thing as the monsters in windwaker because they are brainwashed hylians not monsters. Zelda universe is not an official site and hylians cleary do become decrepit. The only thing that has been refered to as an ELF is goofy looking MIDGET in the Tingle rpg. This clearly shows what Nintendos perception of an elf is. Miyamoto has never actually said hylians,just because some site says it with it providing a source doesn't mean its true. As for humans not being able to use as magic as well as hylians.Syrup the witch and Marin clearly disproves that. As for dark skinned hylians just look at Telma or Din the oracle. The minish call hylians humans. The greater power of magic was only stated in the American version of the link to the past manual making it unlikely to be canon and it has never been shown that hylians have greater power of magic then other races. Infact Hylians are presented as the most normal race in Hyrule,having less powers then the neighbors. Most hylians are no more powerful then a regular human. If only a few sites call hylians elves and many games refer to them as HUMANS then its obvious which is the correct. The minish cap clearly only has hylians in it who also refered as HUMANS. I rest my case. Delsait 01:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I never said they were the Wind Waker Darknuts, and that's just proof that you haven't been listening - I specifically referred to Four Swords Adventures.

Zelda universe is the official site run by Nintendo of America, and has the counterparts of the official Japanese sites as subsites. It is as official as it gets, since its made by the game producers. If the producers call Hylians elf-like, I don't understand why you are still arguing. Really? Have you gone over all of Miyamoto's quotes? The greater power over magic has been part of the storyline on both sides of the pacific for several games in the series, I'm sorry. Becoming decrepit - Saruman and Gandalf, as well. It also calls Shiekah and Gerudo human, as I've been telling you. Hylians are NOT presented as the most normal race - look at Oracle of Ages, Seasons, or Link's Awakening. Humans and Ordonians are the more farmer, non-high bunch. Again - provide a damn source. It is the height of stupidity to say that my "few" sources are not enough - you have not provided one damn piece of verification for your views EXCEPT FOR YOUR VIEWS. I have provided the official Nintendo site, the page on what elves are, and several other cites. Wikipedia depends on SOURCES, not merely saying "You're wrong because I said so." All I'm saying is that Hylians are clearly supposed to be elf-like. No, they are not called elves, because neither Gandalf nor Odin are present in the games. But they ARE elf-like, and this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a game guide - if it helps readers understand what is being talked about, and it's not specifically false, than it should be there.128.211.175.82 23:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

If the games Say ELVES ARE SHORT MIDGETS WITH BIG TEETH. Then thats what they are period end of story. I have provided the best source THE GAMES THEMSELVES. WHICH STATE THAT ELVES ARE SHORT AND HYLIANS ARE HUMANS EXCEPT THAT CAN HEAR THE GODS NOT ELVES. Delsait 00:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that the Tingle RPG has been translated into English? Could you source that with an image or gamescript faq? Searching on google, I can only find one faq for the japanese game - the title of the game isn't even correct. However, if you can provide verification, than that would indeed mean that Hylians cannot be called elf-like.

I do find it humorous that the one Zelda character you want to call an elf is nothing like the godlike, blessed, beautiful creatures you were earlier claiming. And you don't need to yell if it's a new point you just brought up - it's not like I didn't "hear it the first time". Just one question though - if you can find the verification, is it that his NAME is "The Elf", or that his race is. Because, from that same faq, there is apparently also "The Ninja" - are Ninjas a race in TLoZ?

As for Hylians being "human" so, technically, are elves. That's why they are called "races". As I've said before, Gerudo and Shiekah are also called human, along with any other humanoids in the games.

Dark-skinned "Hylians" - it never says Telma or Din are specifically Hylians. They could belong to any of the other humanoid races, as all of them but base stock humans have the pointy ears.

And again - I never said Hylians = Elves. I said that they were elf-like, and very clearly based on elves. That's all I'm asking to be put in.74.140.118.84 13:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

True the elves in Tingle rpg could likely be just odd looking humans. Ninjas aren't a race but they are certainly a occupation. As for the name,the japanese name for these midgets is very clear as ELF and it will likely remain that in the english translation if it ever comes. They are likely based of european elves. Anyway Din is a hylian,what better body for the oracle of the gods to inhabit then a hylians. As for Telma what else could she be? I specifically remember other dark skineed hylians too. Anyway its very common for games that take place in settings similar to medieval european fantasy to not contain many dark skinned characters. Delsait 16:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyway Zelda designs were primarily based off european settings. So its possible that his original Link design was based off elves,gnomes and other fantasy creatures. Its even possible that Link was intended to be short in the first zelda. The floppy hat is a stable of european elves,dwarves,brownies,and gnomes. But regardless of their orignal design inspirations Hylians have developed their own racial identity with very little in common with elves,brownies,and other mythological creaetures. Delsait 03:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Elves...Elves are not one of the "little people". Again, you're thinking fairies and sprites. Possibly shakespearean elves. But elves as in the Tolkien and Norse (original) are anything but little. And even if Zelda designs are primarily based off of European settings, Shakespeare and Grimm are not the only ones with sayso over what are the European settings. The original stories paint a much different picture. As for "ELF" - again, a screenshot would be VERY HELPFUL. Merely repeating your claim is not. Din - WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SHE IS. In fact, she could easily be a Holodrummer with curiosly long ears - she's certainly not from Hyrule. And Telma - again, she is never actually called Hylian. While we are allowed to believe either way - only verification makes any headway in a discussion. Floppy hat - FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, LOOK AT THE ACTUAL PAGE ON ELVES! Even the Shakespeare and Germanic Elves don't have floppy hats! Even the beings that's names are close to elves end up being the tiny-winged people, and more accurately translated as fairies! ELVES ARE NOTHING LIKE BROWNIES, FAIRIES, AND THE OTHER LITTLE PEOPLE! READ THE FORSAKEN ARTICLE! I mean, I'm sorry I have to "yell", but it honestly seems like you haven't even touched the article!KrytenKoro 20:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually European elves are like dwarves,gnomes, and brownies. For instance,Santa's elves are portrayed as wearing floppy hats,its just that now the norse elves and Tolkiens elves are used more often. For the elf in the tingle Rpg just look for info on the game and you'll find it. Its the second bodyguard you can get. Delsait 02:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you do this for me? Please? Type in "Elves" in the search bar to your left. Please. For the love of all that is holy, please do it. As for Tingle RPG - The only hits on google for "Tingle RPG" and "Elf" that are actually related are one faq. For a foreign language game. On gamefaqs. While that is a good start, it still doesn't overrule NOA's official Zelda site. If you could provide a screenshot, that would be good progress. Maybe "The ELF" is in kanji - there could be a different translation. Maybe the faq writer made it up - it doesn't say. That's why another source would be very nice.KrytenKoro 02:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Why would he make it up? He clearly can he read japanese or knows someone who can. Its the only faq of the game out right now too. ITs the most reliably source of information out there on the game. And the description sounds alot like a european elf. Delsait 07:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so apparently you never actually looked up European elves. As for "he obviously knows japanese" - he specifically says that he made it through the game by guessing and checking, visavis money. Knowledge of japanese is not that necessary to make it through a non-text based game (and the numbers are typed the same, so the major money aspect that fills the text part of the game requires no japanese either). There's thousands of people doing it for Kingdom Hearts Final Mix right now. Furthermore, the difference between whether the name is in kanji would be huge - it could EASILY have a different official translation, and he chose "elf" as a POSSIBLE translation because that's what he thought the character was.

Basically - ARE YOU HONESTLY TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT SOURCES ARE NOT NECESSARY? This is f'ing Wikipedia! Even then, the CREATORS OF THE GAME SERIES overrule ONE FAN'S PERSONAL OPINION FOR A GAME HE POSSIBLY CAN'T ACTUALLY READ! If you can find one, just one picture of this elf character, I will personally translate the name for you - if it still says the elf, then fine, I accept - it's not a problem for me. What is a problem is that f'ing Nintendo itself says that hylians are elf-like, and people are too hung up on their personal, FAN OPINIONS to accept what Nintendo itself said. Like the Oocca thing - doesn't matter if you find it ridiculous that the Oocca created Hylians. I do too - it matters that Nintendo said they did.128.211.179.135 14:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

OKay Now your just being arrogrant. HE NEVER ONCE SAID IN HIS FACT THAT HE DIDN"T KNOW THE NAMES. FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE FAQ. I tried to remain as faithful as possible, but on occassion some names struck me as too goofy to use. Although all of the Bodyguard names are exactly what they say in the game (even Agent Smith and Steroy*) Quit acting like a moron and stop making stuff up. Delsait 02:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The quote is from the bottom of the page there is the official page. THAT IS THE OFFICIAL PROOF. You can have your opinion but stop putting the unfounded view that Hylians are elves in the article. Delsait 04:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

How am I being arrogant? Do you even know what that means? He even says that he didn't always faithfully translate it! And where did I make stuff up?! HE SAYS HE MADE IT THROUGH THE MONEY PORTIONS BY GUESSING AND CHECKING! That's exactly what he said, that's what I went on. The closest he gets to claiming he knows japanese in the FAQ is: "This one's hard to get if you don't speak Japanese, but luckily, I'm here to tell you." Still, he is a FAQ writer, and they do guess and check the whole game - plenty of non-japanese speakers have made faqs for japanese games, and say the same line. As for translating names (if they are in kana) - you can do that with a kana chart, it's only romaniztion, not actual translation. I admit that he probably knows Japanese - but still, verification IS needed. First of all - A game FAQ is not a more reliable than the game's producers. Second off - I have no idea why you are talking about the bodyguards. Third off - what official page are you talking about? The FAQ? Finally - I never said Hylians ARE elves, even in the article - I said they are elf-LIKE which is what Nintendo itself says. Now explain to me - why is Nintendo's word on their own games unreliable?KrytenKoro 11:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see - You were directly quoting him without using quotation marks or in any way marking the words as not your own. In any case, he mentions the NAMES. Not the types, the NAMES. Still, as this is the ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA, I refer you to this: "Hylians

Hylians are an elf-like race of people who first established an ordered civilization in Hyrule. Famous Hylians include Princess Zelda and Link. The Hylians' long, sculpted ears enable them to hear special messages. As the chosen people, they are also given unique psychic and magical abilities. Traditional Hyrulean dress is simple and functional. Men belt leather jerkins at the waist, and women slip into straight, ankle-length gowns. Although simple of design, Hyrulean dresses and tunics are often embellished with brightly colored, hand-stitched borders that make them look almost festive."~http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/h.jsp

I also notice that instead of finding any source to verify his claims, you continue to claim that his word stands on its own. It doesn't - sources need to be found. Yes, I admit, any game screenshot with e-ru-fo next to a midget's picture would overrule the Zelda.com website - I would be happy to accept that in that case. As it is, we have a description from Nintendo calling them elf-like, and we have your word that their wrong. One is acceptable, the other isn't.KrytenKoro 12:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As for your claim of my arrogance - Let's examine this. Arrogance is: "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." Not only do you consistently say things like this: "reverted vandalism that says hylians were elves. Its already proven that they are not Elves." You refuse to actually look up what elves actually are or any sources for your claim. For a third, you consistently call me "dumb", "idiot", "moron", and so on. For discussing something and using sources. Nice, very mature. As for your edit summary: 1. "reverted vandalism" It's vandalism if it's made with malicious intent. If it's information that an editor has found sources for, it's a valid edit, whether it turns out to be correct or not (as it is, I maintain that until Nintendo or Shiggy says otherwise, they are elf-like - I have provided 3 legitimate sources, you've provided a fan document) 2. "that says hylians were elves" You consistently misrepresent my argument - I AM NOT SAYING THAT HYLIANS ARE ELVES! I am saying that they are elf-like - something that examining what an elf is, and Nintendo's own statements corroborate 3. "Its already proven that they are not Elves" You assume that providing a fan FAQ is legitimate enough to prove all that disagree with you wrong, and persist in believing that you have already won when the matter is still in discussion. If you had summarized with maybe "reverted edit claiming hylians are elf-like - Tingle RPG seems to disagree" You wouldn't have reeked of arrogance. But what you did write seems to point to you as the arrogant one here, not me.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/ds/file/930503/46227 Nowhere does he say what you claimed he said. HE SAYS AT THE END THE BODYGUARD NAMES ARE OFFICIAL. QUIT MAKING STUFF UP. NOA sites make mistakes all the time remember Daisy kong? Hylians as a whole do not look or act like Tolkien's elves at all. The Zelda games have never called them elves or elf like and often call them humans. The zelda races that are are like elves are the minish,kokiri,and the short bodyguards in the Tingle rpg who are actually called elves.. Delsait 17:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I found the faq on my own. As for the guessing and checking - I know I read that somewhere, it may have been on a similar faq, then. As for the bodyguard names - Again NAMES. Not titles. Read my arguments instead of assuming that I'm making stuff up. "NOA sites make mistakes all the time remember Daisy kong?" - Many of the NOA Zelda sites are direct translations of the Japanese material - look at the Twilight Princess, for example. As for Daisy Kong - I don't understand what you're trying to get at. As for Hylians acting like Tolkien's elves - they actually, actually do. If you had looked at the link on elves I gave you, or looked up Tolkien's elves even, you'd realize how silly it is to claim that Tolkien's elves are forest sprites - Tolkien has claimed they are not meant to be effeminate, and elves live in varied places in his works - from caves to forests to towns. Calling them humans - Yes, AND IT ALSO CALLS THE SHIEKAH AND GERUDO HUMANS. ITS BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR SPECIES, NOT THEIR RACE. THE MINISH ARE NOTHING LIKE ELVES - again look up the f'ing page on elves. They are like gnomes or brownies, WHICH ARE NOTHING LIKE ELVES. The Kokiri are Forest Sprites or Pixies - and are designed as such. The very fact that they are children bars them from being elvish - Elves were supposed to pretty much be adults - From Norse to Germanic to Tolkien. Please, I will ask again - I have provided an official source - whether YOU PERSONALLY AGREE WITH IT IS MOOT. I don't like it either. If you feel you have to remove it, provide an OFFICIAL source (A FAQ is NOT acceptable) that says that Hylians are not based on elves. Hell, email Shiggy or NOA yourself. And please, PLEASE look at these pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_%28Middle-earth%29 Because almost all of what you're saying about elves (barring the few things on which Tolkien and Peter Jackson agree) is patently false. If you can read those, and at least discuss this without comparing elves to Christmas Elves or brownies, then you would be reasonable to discuss with. If you refuse to do so and keep reverting my valid edits, I will request arbitration.KrytenKoro 18:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC) KrytenKoro 18:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, just claiming that "NOA has been wrong before" is a crappy argument at best, akin to claiming that all cows are blue because you've seen a blue one before. You must provide SPECIFIC proof why NOA is wrong THIS TIME - and besides an inadmissable fan-made FAQ, you have yet to do so. A screenshot or official statement from NOJ or Shiggy and co. would do, as they are the original producers of these games. As it is, NOA's word is the most legitimate we have. KrytenKoro 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Found it: "Usually, you've got about 3 tries at this (although you can constantly save at Tingle's house so you can retry a lot)" from http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/ds/review/R106277.html by AlgusUnderdunk.KrytenKoro 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he couldn't read the whole thing but he specifically says the BODYGUARD NAMES ARE OFFICIAL. He obviously can read some japanese or found someone who could. The minish are excatly like European elves,remember the story of the elves and the shoemaker. Hylians are nothing like Tolkien's elves. The only members of the race who look anything like Elves are the links and Zeldas,no one else in the race looks anything like elves. They lead normal lives,are physically imperfect,grow old and decrepit,are common,and are called HUMANS MORE THEN HALF THE TIME. NEVER HAVE THEY BEEN CALLED ELVES. As for NOA's sites they are often wrong,they called Dixie kong Daisy kong,said Toadsworth was Peach's father and other mistakes. Delsait 18:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC) Yes - Bodyguard NAMES. As in "Minco", NOT as in "The Elf". As for if it is kanji - being able to read it is much different from being able to translate it - names especially are easy to read if you have an alphabet chart - the meaning is very different.

Minish exactly like european elves?:

"Elves make various appearances in Norse mythology. Although the concept itself is never clearly defined in the extant sources, elves appear to have been conceived as powerful and beautiful human-sized beings.[specify] They are commonly described as semi-divine beings associated with fertility and the cult of the ancestors. The notion of elves thus appears similar to the animistic belief in spirits of nature and of the deceased, common to nearly all human religions; this is also true for the Old Norse belief in fylgjur and vörðar ("follower" and "warden" spirits, respectively). It is said that elves are the Germanic equivalent to the nymphs of Greek and Roman mythology, and vili and rusalki of Slavic mythology."

"Yet, Andersen also wrote about elvere in The Elfin Hill. The elves in this story are more alike those of traditional Danish folklore, who were beautiful females, living in hills and boulders, capable of dancing a man to death. Like the huldra in Norway and Sweden, they are hollow when seen from the back. The elves of Norse mythology have survived into folklore mainly as females, living in hills and mounds of stones[11] (cf. Galadriel's account of what would happen to the Elves who remained in Middle-earth). The Swedish älvor[12] (sing. älva) were stunningly beautiful girls who lived in the forest with an elven king."

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:%C3%84ngs%C3%A4lvor_-_Nils_Blomm%C3%A9r_1850.jpg"

"However, the elves were not exclusively young and beautiful. In the Swedish folktale Little Rosa and Long Leda, an elvish woman (älvakvinna) arrives in the end and saves the heroine, Little Rose, on condition that the king's cattle no longer graze on her hill. She is described as an old woman and by her aspect people saw that she belonged to the subterraneans.[15]"

"According to German and Danish folklore, the Erlkönig appears as an omen of death, much like the banshee in Irish mythology. Unlike the banshee, however, the Erlkönig will appear only to the person about to die. His form and expression also tell the person what sort of death they will have: a pained expression means a painful death, a peaceful expression means a peaceful death. This aspect of the legend was immortalised by Goethe in his poem Der Erlkönig, later set to music by Schubert.

In the Brothers Grimm fairy tale Der Schuhmacher und die Heinzelmännchen, a group of naked, one foot tall beings called Heinzelmännchen help a shoemaker in his work. When he rewards their work with little clothes, they are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. Even though Heinzelmännchen are akin to beings such as kobolds and dwarves, the tale has been translated to English as The Shoemaker & the Elves, (probably due to the similarity of the henzelmannchen to Scottish brownies) and is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories (see House-elf)."

So the "Elf and the Shoemaker" is officially a mistranslation.

"Although our early English evidence is slight, there are reasons to think that Anglo-Saxon elves (ælfe) were similar to early elves in Norse mythology: human-like, human-sized supernatural beings, predominantly if not exclusively male, capable of helping or harming the people who encountered them. In particular, the pairing of æsir and álfar found in the Poetic Edda is mirrored in the Old English charm Wið færstice and in the distinctive occurrence of the cognate words os and ælf in Anglo-Saxon personal names (e.g. Oswald, Ælfric[19])."

"Significant for the distancing of the concept of elves from its mythological origins was the influence from literature. In Elizabethan England, William Shakespeare imagined elves as little people. He apparently considered elves and fairies to be the same race. In Henry IV, part 1, act II, scene iv, he has Falstaff call Prince Henry, "you starveling, you elfskin!", and in his A Midsummer Night's Dream, his elves are almost as small as insects. On the other hand, Edmund Spenser applies elf to full-sized beings in The Faerie Queene."

So yes, SHAKESPEAREAN ELVES would be the small things found similar to the Kokiri, or even the Minish. Yet, that is one AUTHOR'S depiction of elves - the overall culture described them as human-sized and godly, for the most part. I didn't want to get rude, but - stop spewing crap about "European elves" this or "Tolkien elves" that if the actual material directly contradicts you. I've pointed you towards the sources many times - for the love of good, please use them.

"Hylians are nothing like Tolkien's elves." I believe we've already been over this - the evidence contradicts you. "The only members of the race who look anything like Elves are the links and Zeldas,no one else in the race looks anything like elves." Except for the Ordonians and various doctors, most of the Hylians look like Link and Zelda. They may not all be Blue-eyed and blonde-haired, but they look overrall the same. "They lead normal lives" I'd beg to differ - They live in a world where magic is quite real, and available for use to almost anyone - potions, anyone? "are physically imperfect,grow old and decrepit" So? "are common" Not as common as base-stock humans in some of the games (specifically the Oracle ones). There's actually quite a small population - they barely fill two towns in most of the games, and in Ocarina they manage to squeeze everyone into one. "and are called HUMANS MORE THEN HALF THE TIME." So? So are the Gerudo and Shiekah - it's the name of their species. Race is something else entirely. "NEVER HAVE THEY BEEN CALLED ELVES." On the official site, by Shigeru Miyamoto, and by a nintendo-run newssite. "As for NOA's sites they are often wrong,they called Dixie kong Daisy kong,said Toadsworth was Peach's father and other mistakes." Daisy Kong - you mean Nintendo Power? Those guys are NOT NOA. They are associated with Nintendo, but are NOT NOA. In any case - so two typos on unrelated matter invalidates a claim that their organization has made thrice, and not changed? How is a typo related to an actual claim? What do you suppose the original word there was meant to be?KrytenKoro 22:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I just took the time to email Algus - guess what? I was right about the title being incorrect!

"Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:46:41 +0000 From: theguiness@go.com To: krytenkoro@hotmail.com Subject: Re: In regards to Tingle RPG

Oh! No, officially that's not his race by any means ^_^

I only called that particular character, "The Elf" so people could visually spot him faster."

KrytenKoro 20:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay quit vandalising the page,they are not offically elf-like,Nsider itself said Toadsworth was peaches father when he is obviously not,and their official sites make mistakes all the time. so don't put elf-like as a fact because it is not. And hylians are very common,theres no race more common in hyrule did you see how many hylians there were in castle town? Oh by the way this description of English elves sounds exactly like the minish, "human-sized supernatural beings, predominantly if not exclusively male, capable of helping or harming the people who encountered them". You can at least put elf like for the minish as well. Many hylians live simple lives as farmers and peasants unlike elves. And when have gerudos or sheikah ever been called humans? Only hylians have been called humans. Delsait 08:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC) "human-sized""human-sized""human-sized""human-sized""human-sized""human-sized""human-sized" Are Minish human-sized, Delsait? "Their official sites make mistakes all the time" First off - provide one. So far you have provided instances where Nintendo Power and possible N-Sider messed up. Neither are the team that localizes Zelda for NA, which are the ones who produced that page.
Second off - Algus admitted that you're interpretation was completely false. As such, the only non-OR version we have is THE LOCALIZATION TEAM'S OFFICIAL SITE CALLING THEM ELF-LIKE. "Many hylians live simple lives as farmers and peasants unlike elves."
I remember two farmers - the two in Minish Cap. The other, Malon and Talon, are ranchers. In any case - Elves, even in Tolkein and especially in Norse, have horses that they raise. They also take food from the land, as well.
Neither do I remember any actual peasants in the Zelda games. Non-aristocracy, maybe, but everyone actually appears quite well to do - the only time anyone is seen in any distress, it is always due to Ganon, not feudalism.
"And hylians are very common"
They may be the most common race in Hyrule. However, they have a atrociously low actual population, even compared to medieval standards - and Hyrule is far advanced past medieval times, even if they kept most of the decor.
Has Nintendo ever called the Minish elf-like? So why would it go in this article? On the other hand, they HAVE called the Hylians elf-like.
I think you could do with reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rouge_admin
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources
and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
"And when have gerudos or sheikah ever been called humans? Only hylians have been called humans."

""This mummy looks different... Sorta like it's here waiting for its human heart to be healed."

"Did you memorize the code? If only you were human...then I could make you a Bombers member...Too bad!

I guess not...Once, we let some kid who wasn't human join our gang, and, boy, did we ever regret it! Sorry!" Neither the Bombers nor the researcher were Hylians.

"Ah...hmm...Now that's a problem... See, we sell potions to humans only.

I don't think they'll work on anything but humans...Sorry, but you'll have to leave." Koume makes potions only for humans, potions that only work on humans. Guess what? The potions work on her Gerudo sister.

"MALO ...They went that way. The rest is up to you, Link...

Human legs...too slow to catch monkeys..." Malo is no Hylian

"TO THE FINDER... THE ISLE OF KOHOLINT, IS BUT AN ILLUSION... HUMAN, MONSTER, SEA, SKY... A SCENE ON THE LID OF A SLEEPER'S EYE... AWAKE THE DREAMER, AND KOHOLINT WILL VANISH MUCH LIKE A BUBBLE ON A NEEDLE... CAST- AWAY, YOU SHOULD KNOW THE TRUTH! ... ... ... ... What? Illusion?" The only Hylian on Koholint is Link.

"None can stop Veran now! You can only wait for the Flame of Sorrow to light! What a view! All humanity can feel the sorrow! Ah hah hah hah!" Referring to ALL inhabitants of Labrynna

"the Koroks took on human forms," The Kokiri at least looked like Humans

So yes, The Gerudo were at least once called humans. In fact, the term human is only ever used to exclude Deku, Skull Kid, Goron, Zora, and Monkey. On the other hand, the Dead, the Gerudo, and the Kokiri are included - anyone who is humanoid.KrytenKoro 22:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

"リンクはせっかく耳が長いんだから、もっとエルフ的な要素が欲しかったような・・・。って関係ないか。"
from: http://www.nintendo-inside.jp/board/freetalk/12615p9.html

It's odd that you need every related producer's input, when you were so ready to put "elf-like" into Minish and Kokiri. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=Ssm&q=%E5%AE%AE%E6%9C%AC+%E8%8C%82+%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95+%E3%82%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%80+%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AF&btnG=Search

Try that. It's astounding the number of game sites (not just Zelda fansites) that call Link and Zelda elves. The same applies for japanese sites - I actually had to narrow it down to including Shigeru Miyamoto, Link, Zelda, and Elf, just to get under 400.KrytenKoro 15:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Now, just to be clear: Zelda.com is NOT run by the people who do Nintendo Power, or N-Sider, or any other such organization. It's run by the people who are in charge of the North American production of the games. If there were "other" errors on their encyclopedia, your point might be valid - but so far, you've only cited mistakes that Nintendo Power has made.KrytenKoro 15:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I just remembered something - Elves, at least in Tolkien, DO die of old age. Extremely old age, but still. They fade away, into the stones, the earth, etc. Check the article on Elves (Middle-Earth). Galadriel talks about it. And another claim, that "The greater power over magic is only mentioned in the American manual and never compared to that of humans ingame." is false as well - the japanese manual for link to the past even goes so far as to call these abilities gifts of the gods. And as for comparing it to other "races" - I can't actually remember any non-Sage Zoras, Gerudos, Dekus, or regular humans using magic in the entire series - it's always a Hylian. Except possibly Maple, the Witch. And she was horrible at it.KrytenKoro 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre."

According to the logic you're using, we should include that NOJ has made no statement either way. And we should do it for every statement in the article ("NOJ has never actually said that "Furthermore, in Goron culture it is customary to call other Gorons "brother,"" (which, coincidentally, is an inference not actually claimed in the games

).KrytenKoro 04:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of the ref marker is to show the source of the claim. Inserting "NOA says this" is redundant. I notice, however, that you didn't remove the sentence on how NOJ has never made a distinction between elves and hylians - is this you realizing that you were being ridiculous, or do you just not actually read to find out what's relevant?

Finally, you keep starting a new sentence in the middle of another! You keep adding in bad grammar, and the way you insert the sentences breaks up the flow of the section and makes it both broken and hard for readers to understand. Personally, I only understood what you were trying to say because I have been discussing this with you.KrytenKoro 01:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I said Syrup not Maple. Another regular human wizard is the one hiding under a tree in oracle of ages who is a teenager in the past and through magic still alive in the present. Bippin and Blossoms child can also learn a life restoring songs My point is that there is no real difference between Hylians and humans besides the fact that Hylians are native to Hyrule. Link wasn't a super magician as soon as he was born, he always has toearn it from the fairy. It was a gift which few humans and hylians possess. There is nothing in the game that suggests having pointed ears makes you a magician. And it has been shown that hylians do not live on average to be 200 or more years old. The only ones that do are the odd and powerfull wizards. They still grow old, at the same rate,look at the Tingle in Majora's mask,hes 32 and looks his age. There are no regular Hylians that are in their 200s or older,because 99% of the population doesn't not live that long. Even the Links didn't,none of them were alive to meet their descendants. If there was such a big difference,it would be talked about in the games. Instead humans and hylians live in the same towns and don't differentiate between each other. Oh yeah sorry about the mistake,I forgot about the koroks being refered to as humans. As for your comment about the researcher and the bombers researcher being regular human actually they were hylians or the terminian equivlent. [[1]] Delsait 18:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Do we know he is a human? I don't remember ever seeing his ears. Plus, he has the beard in the past, as well - how is he a teenager? As for the life-restoring songs - the Yetis have life-restoring love. Learning it from a fairy - No. Just no. Play the games. The MANUALS THEMSELVES as well as Link to the Past, ingame, if I remember, say that the pointy ears are symbol of the magical power. Lifespan - WHERE?! It never once dictates what the lifespan is - if anything, your "Old man" examples of them living 400 years would be something - and nowhere is it stated that they have magical power.

As for the bombers - yeah, I was using ACTUAL QUOTES FROM THE GAMES. I know they're Terminians - however, the games call Kotake a human too, and she is clearly a Gerudo (or the Termina equivalent, which should be the same, seeing as every other non-national race is).

And don't f'ing put a "fact" tag on the talk page, much less on the article when the source is given. If the source doesn't say what the sentence says it does, then remove the line, don't make stuff up.KrytenKoro 05:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Could tell me where you got the source for the japanese manual. If you don't then the should stay. Anyway the old man is by all extents a regular human like just about every person in Labryna. Vasu is also able to manage magical rings. No where does the games imply that hylian blood makes automaticaly able to use Magic. There have been plenty of non-hylian wizards. Instead in every game Link has to earn his magic meter generally from a fairy. To name some examples in zelda 2 he is given the ability to learn magic from a wizard and he gets the ability from the fairy in hyrule castle in Ocarania,it is not something link is born with. The old men are just rare examples of people who lived unnaturally long. Saying Hylians live that long just because of a few wizards is like saying that all gerudos live to be as old as koume and Kotake. Hylians on average do not live that long. This is made very obvious in the games.

Delsait 22:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The japanese manual says that their magic powers are a gift from the gods. Both manuals say they have magic powers (and both say this in the first few pages, where the story bit is given), the only difference is the source - Japan says gods, NA says magical blood (since they weren't allowed to mention gods). For the old man - we don't know that at all. He can't be used either way, and in any case, he still doesn't use magic in the games, that we know of. In Zelda 2?! You could see his ears?! Stop making crap up. In Ocarina of Time, she gives him the spin attack, or possibly the magic crystals, depending on which fairy you visit first. The fact that he could use them at all negates the point though. All Gerudos/Hylians - THOSE ARE THE ONLY ONES WE KNOW THE LIFESPAN FOR! No, we can't say they all live that long, but we can't say that they only live 100 years, BECAUSE THE GAMES DON'T SAY THAT! Vasu - he doesn't do anything with the rings, except hold them. He can't use them, nothing. He can just look at them, tell you what type it is, and put them in a box. In two games he gets magic from a fairy. TWO. In the others, he already has it, or gets it from someone else. Link to the Past is a good example - it is a latent ability that he can use once he picks up the lantern - he has the power, just nothing to use it on.KrytenKoro 01:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well first of all I still need the source for the japanese Link to the past manual. Second of all Link only starts with Magic in a Link to the past. He gets the power to use magic in Ocarania,Majora,Windwaker he gets it from a fairy. In Adventure of Link he is given the ability to use magic from someone who appears to be a regular human wizard.[[2]]. So in 4 out of five games he has to earn the ability to use magic. Second of all those two hylian villiagers in Ocarania of time seem to think the fact that Link was teleported out of the temple of shadow was ridiclous. Clearly showing that many or some hylians can not use magic. I'd say its pretty clear that magic is available to any creature or thing are smart enough or have the right connections. Even some of the monsters can use magic,it is no way exclusive to the hylians. For example when Link turns into a deku scrub in Majoras mask it in no way impedes his ability to use magic. Delsait 01:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how you don't understand this - don't f'ing mess with other people's comments. Wind Waker - No. He gets it from the big tree. Remember? Teleported out of the shadow temple - the text dump has that nowhere. Even if it did, isn't it likely they're surprised that HE ESCAPED ALIVE FROM A DEATH-TRAP? In Adventure of Link, he gets his first spell from the old man - NOT A FAIRY. Monsters - yeah, because they're magical creatures - did you ever play Minish Cap? Or any of the games? They're not natural - in fact, a lot of them are summoned monsters or curses. The Deku Scrub - yeah, because he was still Link, he just had a different mask. Only his outer appearance changed.

http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-jap/z3-04-05.jpg http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-us/z3manual-03-04.jpg

compare use babelfish if you need to - but since you have already shown that you won't trust my translation, I'll leave it to you. I'll give you a hint - the relevant part in japanese is at the end of the second page, where it says Ha-i-ri-a.

I thank you for providing a source. As for you comment I NEVER said Link got his the power use magic in a link to the past from a fairy I said he got it from a wizard. The villiagers who made the comment were in Kakariko,you know the one in blue that tells a story and the red one that laughs at it. Beat the Shadow Temple in Ocarania and listen to their comment,they didn't even know about the dungeon,they were shocked by the magic and the one in red didn't even believe it,laughing at the concept. Anyway some monsters are created by magic,others are just savage,for instance the tekitites have lived on death mountain for a long time and dodongos live naturally. And many of the monsters display too much independance and thought to be mere creations by magic,many predating Ganon. Never did I say Link's mindset changed when turns into a scrub. According to your logic you can only be a good spell caster if you are a hylian(which the games blatanly disprove) but the fact that a deku scrub can use magic just as efficiantly or better as a hylian shows that the body you have doesn't matter when it comes to spells. Delsait 22:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"for instance the tekitites have lived on death mountain for a long time and dodongos live naturally." - play Minish Cap again - ALL monsters were locked in the chest, and ALL magically came out of it. Even if Minish Cap isn't the first - what kind of natural animal turns into smoke when it dies, EXACTLY THE SAME WAY EVERYTHING ELSE DOES?

"As for you comment I NEVER said Link got his the power use magic in a link to the past from a fairy I said he got it from a wizard" You vandalized my comment to say it did. I was assuming that you were just bad at saying it for yourself, not that you were outright lying.

"Beat the Shadow Temple in Ocarania and listen to their comment" None of the words "magic", "shadow", "temple", "dungeon" or "graveyard" appear in the game's text in such a fashion. "Magic" is used in conjunction with Fairy Magic, Hylian Potions, and the Gerudo's Ice Arrows. Could you maybe actually remember the quote, because as it is, it doesn't exist in the game.

"too much independance and thought to be mere creations by magic,many predating Ganon." - Ganon wasn't the only one with magic - the Minish Cap exemplifies this, and I never said the monsters were his creations. I merely said that they were unnatural, magical constructs.

"According to your logic you can only be a good spell caster if you are a hylian(which the games blatanly disprove)" - or a gerudo or fairy, but essentially, yes. Though, the only gerudo that use magic use dark, evil magic, as the games say, while fairies use good magic (the same that Hylians use). As for the other races - it would be silly of me to claim that none of them can use magic (though I can't remember any that actually did), but it is certainly obvious that none of them use it with the same proficiency that the Hylian magic-users in the game (and according to BOTH official manuals - so there's no possibility for it being a translation error) do. While certainly the old men in Labrynna and Holodrum could be humans, the most we have seen them do is hold an essence of nature (which requires no magical power), and the debatable "400 years" thing - the problem with using this for either of our arguments is that we have no guarantee, besides the word of Nintendo Power's guide makers, that it is the same man - he even takes away money in one case and gives it back in another.

Oh - there is the man under the clockshop who makes monsters appear and gives you the sword upgrade - but that whole password linking thing was already contradictory enough to remove it from canon (Subrosians in the past? WTH?), and as it's a mere sword upgrade, it's not really impressive magic. And again, there's no guarantee of what his race was, so it's a moot point either way.KrytenKoro 04:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Every thing you fight in Zelda turns into smoke when it dies. The dogs and cuccoos in Link's Awakening turn to smoke when they die,so do the regular rats in Windwaker. So do Deku scrubs and they are not magical constructs. Its a gameplay mechanic. "Could you maybe actually remember the quote, because as it is, it doesn't exist in the game." The one in blue says to the one in red that Link is the man is the one who he saw he surrounded in a blue light and teleported to the villliage,and the one in red finds the concept silly and unbelievable.

"but it is certainly obvious that none of them use it with the same proficiency that the Hylian magic-users in the game (and according to BOTH official manuals - so there's no possibility for it being a translation error) do." That line isn't even present in the Manual for the Remake and isn't refferenced in any of the games. Second,Syrup,King Zora and even Maple seemed more adept at magic then many hylians. Third if was this the case,Link's spell casting would be severely downtoned when he turns into a zora,Goron,or Deku scrub. But in these forms Link displays the same skill in magic he has in Hylian form,completly disproving your belief that hylians are innately better at magic.

"there is the man under the clockshop who makes monsters appear and gives you the sword upgrade - but that whole password linking thing was already contradictory enough to remove it from canon (Subrosians in the past? WTH?)," Its certainly more canon then a single line in a manual that has NEVER BEEN REFFERENCEDIN THE GAMES and is GONE altogether in the remake. who's to say that they couldn't have walked into an open time portal. Maple was able to do that why not the subrosians. Delsait 22:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"Everything you fight..." - and? The rats are not normal creatures - they even know how to use bombs and trapdoors. The cuccos and dogs are only killable in Link's Awakening, where EVERYTHING IS A MAGICAL CONSTRUCT.

"The one in blue" - again, please either find the line in a text dump, or give me the closest approximation of it so I can search myself. So far, none of the relevant words turn up anything like what you're saying.

Ah! DO you meant this:

• "There he is! It's him!

He's the one who dropped from the sky surrounded by a blue light! Now do you believe me? Nobody believes what I've been telling them all these past seven years!"

• Nowhere does that reference wonder at the existence of magic - it seems to more express wonder that they have a savior. Or, if they know what the blue light is for, that someone survived the shadow temple. But more important is the fact that nothing is actually specified by this line - the other could be disbelieving anything in relation to Link, we don't know what.
• In fact, the most amazing thing is that he instead references the "past seven years" bit. Did Link conquer the Shadow Temple seven years ago? No. Did he teleport to Kakariko Village's square seven years ago? No. He was, however, recognized as someone they met seven years ago, who got into trouble at the castle at about the same time Ganondorf chased Zelda out of it, and began his plans of conquest. I would wonder what the hell Link was up to as well.
• Hell, it would have been more reasonable for him to be claiming that Link was the savior - others would doubt that, since they would associate Link with the demise of the castle. The blue light thing could be proof that he was a hero. Or, the guy coud have been claiming that Link was working for Ganondorf - Link's return to their village around the time it was destroyed as a demon would help this claim.
• Do you understand now why OR is unacceptable in Wiki? I could make up a host of equally valid but contradictory theories as to what the hell that line was talking about - but since we can't be sure, WE DON'T WASTE OUR TIME PUTTING IT IN THERE.

"That line isn't even present in the Manual for the Remake and isn't referenced in any of the games." - The remake doesn't mention Hylians at all, due to SPACE RESTRICTIONS. It's not that it excludes that specific line, it EXCLUDES HALF OF THE STUFF THAT WAS PRESENT IN BOTH OF THE ORIGINAL MANUALS. If you remember, the problems with early zelda manuals was nothing to do with retconning - it was bad translation. Thus, we can at least trust the japanese manual, which has a very similar line.

"Second,Syrup,King Zora and even Maple seemed more adept at magic then many hylians." - You mean how Syrup and Maple make potions? Are you talking about their ALttP appearance, the LA appearance, the Oracle appearances, which? They're recurring character names, you can't lump them all together. As for King Zora - what has he ever done to exhibit magical power? He got frozen in a block of ice, moved out of the way, and in OoA, he gave the order for Jabu-Jabu to open. The most magical thing I can think of him doing is giving a sword upgrade in a linked Oracle game - again, not strictly canon, but even if it was, big deal.

"Third if was this the case,Link's spell casting would be severely downtoned when he turns into a zora,Goron,or Deku scrub." - I wouldn't say severely, but yes, it is downtoned. Have you ever played Majora's Mask? Have you ever noticed that while in those forms, his abilities are severely limited, ESPECIALLY vis-a-vis magical items? The most Deku can do is shoot bubbles, if I remember correctly - a very slight upgrade of natural Deku abilities. The same is true for the others - Goron Link has a slight upgrade to the natural rolling ability (the ability to grow spikes), and Zora Link can detach the arm-fins. I would definitely rank that below summoning divine light and imbuing it upon arrows. Or even the fact that they CAN'T WEAR ANY OF THE MAGICAL MASKS.

Wait, wait. I take that back. His magical powers are upgraded while wearing a certain transformation mask - but I still have enough faith that you will be able to figure out which one and why that is the exception that proves the rule.

"NEVER BEEN REFFERENCEDIN THE GAMES" - The opening scene of ALttP, where Zelda telepathically contacts Link. The multiple games where she can imbue the arrows with the power of light. The multiple potion shops, blue fire shops, etc. The backstory to the Master Sword (it being forged by Hylians). Ocarina of Time, in which Zelda has the gift of prophecy. Wind Waker, in which a simple merchant can make Magic Armor. The Book of Mudora (a magical Hylian Book). The Temples, mostly built by Hylians.

"and is GONE altogether in the remake." - as is the rest of the section on Hylians - it's not a retcon, they just decided it wasn't relevant enough to the game's story to take up space in a SMALLER MANUAL THAT ALSO HAD TO COVER A WHOLE OTHER GAME.

"who's to say that they couldn't have walked into an open time portal." - Not us, since we're not supposed to rely on rampant OR.

"Maple was able to do that why not the subrosians." - Maple can fly, and was in Labrynna. The Subrosians were in Holodrum, where no time portals were open. The Subrosian thing is the more ridiculous that they DON'T say that they time-traveled - in fact, they talk as if they are true contemporaries of the past Gorons, which makes little to no sense ("I like this Goron Dance so much, I think I should show it to my friends back in Subrosia"). Maple already had a presence in Labrynna, and is usually in the same area as Link, and could conceivably have wondered close while he was teleporting to the past. The Subrosians don't have that luxury, especially since they were moving as a tribe - they would have been noticed.KrytenKoro 07:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Whew its been so long since I came here. Guess I'll continue. :"Everything you fight..." - and? The rats are not normal creatures - they even know how to use bombs and trapdoors. The cuccos and dogs are only killable in Link's Awakening, where EVERYTHING IS A MAGICAL CONSTRUCT.

Right I suppose the cows from Malons ranch are evil magical constructs or the frogs because they can talk? Its a FANTASY,animals can SPEAK. Like I said earlier are deku scrubs magical constructs. The exploding into smoke is simply a way to get rid of the enemies remains. It does not make them magical constructs

"Second,Syrup,King Zora and even Maple seemed more adept at magic then many hylians." Syrup and Maple can fly,make magical potions that bring Link back to life thats pretty dang amazing. They seemed to have more skill with magic then link. can make

"ever played Majora's Mask? Have you ever noticed that while in those forms, his abilities are severely limited, ESPECIALLY vis-a-vis magical items? The most Deku can do is shoot bubbles, if I remember correctly - a very slight upgrade of natural Deku abilities. The same is true for the others - Goron Link has a slight upgrade to the natural rolling ability (the ability to grow spikes), and Zora Link can detach the arm-fins. I would definitely rank that below summoning divine light and imbuing it upon arrows. Or even the fact that they CAN'T WEAR ANY OF THE MAGICAL MASKS."

Thats partly gameplay to prevent them becoming to cheap,and the masks don't fit their faces(except for the transformation masks. You seemed to be overly relying on sterotypes,not EVERY HYLIAN IS A SUPER MAGICAN Like Zelda,many ARE JUST REGULAR People.

Delsait 07:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"Cows and Frogs" - none of these explode into smoke when killed - in fact, they can't be killed. For Deku Scrubs - they don't explode, they run off. In The Wind Waker, enemies explicitly turned into crystal balls with swirling smoke - how much more proof do you want of them being magical? The Minish Cap made it clear that all monsters are magical constructs - and when has Link been able to KILL a non-monster?

"Syrup, Zora" - I don't even understand what you are saying here.

"Majora's Mask" - Okay, let's go over this again - the manuals and games specifically say that the Hylians have more magical power than most of the other races. This claim is held up by Maple, Syrup, Zelda, the Sages, Link, etc. I am NOT relying on a stereotype - I'm reading what the makers SAID and finding examples in the games to back it up.

As for your "gameplay" response - that doesn't negate the fact that in the universe of the game, the other races (besides the OoT/TWW sages and the god races) always have less magical ability than the Hylians - In Link's case - even as blessed by magic as he is, when he is in other forms his magic is severely restricted - the other forms can hardly even handle his meager level of magical ability.

"Many are just regular people" - then why are there so many "Old Man" characters, and why are they predominantly Hylian - AoL, ALL spells are taught by Hylians, Hylians invented the magical instruments (TWW and OoT), the Old Men all over Hyrule and the surrounding nations, etc. - and sometimes Zelda is just a Hylian, not a Sage or blessed one, and she still has impressive magical power (TMC, for example).

Again, the makers of the games call Hylians elf-like (or at least, the American localizers - this is still acceptable, as canons can differ in different localizations), and they say that they are "blessed by the gods with higher magical ability", etc. Why can't you accept that?KrytenKoro 17:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"Cows and Frogs" - none of these explode into smoke when killed - in fact, they can't be killed. For Deku Scrubs - they don't explode, they run off. In The Wind Waker, enemies explicitly turned into crystal balls with swirling smoke - how much more proof do you want of them being magical? The Minish Cap made it clear that all monsters are magical constructs - and when has Link been able to KILL a non-monster?" Madscrubs explode into smoke and the deku scrubs in the swamp in Majoras do it as well. As for when Link could kill non monsters,shooting Sakon when he robbed the old lady killed him,the rebelious knights in Link's awakening,the guards in the Link to the past are actually possesed humans,seen normal and unmasked at the end of the game[3].it matters whether or not they are called darknuts,they are shown as humans and explained by a guard and Zelda to be brainwashed by Agahnim's magic.

"and sometimes Zelda is just a Hylian, not a Sage or blessed one, and she still has impressive magical power (TMC, for example)." Thats because she's Zelda,the bearer of the triforce, a above average Hylian no matter the game,not everyone Zora is as fat king Zora and not every Hylian is as awesome as Zelda.

"claim is held up by Maple, Syrup, Zelda, the Sages," Maple and Syrup are humans and many of the sages have been nonhylians like some of the maidens in a Link to the past[4] and Impa,Darunia,Nabooru,Saria,Ruto,Fado,Medli,Laruto,and Mako.

"why are there so many "Old Man" characters, and why are they predominantly Hylian - AoL, ALL spells are taught by Hylians, Hylians invented the magical instruments (TWW and OoT), the Old Men all over Hyrule and the surrounding nations, etc. ."

Many(key word many not every single one) Hylians are wise and good spellcasters. The Links(as each Link is a different person) didn't start with a magic meter in Ocarania,Majora,Minish cap or Windwaker they had to have it given. Delsait 21:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

We should just end this,we're not going to convince each other and I think we're wasting space. Delsait 21:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"Madscrubs explode into smoke and the deku scrubs in the swamp in Majoras do it as well. As for when Link could kill non monsters,shooting Sakon when he robbed the old lady killed him,the rebelious knights in Link's awakening,the guards in the Link to the past are actually possesed humans,seen normal and unmasked at the end of the game[5].it matters whether or not they are called darknuts,they are shown as humans and explained by a guard and Zelda to be brainwashed by Agahnim's magic."

Fine, I was talking specifically about Deku Scrubs, but I'll accept that Mad SCrubs explode - Sakon died from a Bomb explosion that Link triggered, he didn't actually kill him hand to hand. The Knight in Link's Awakening - you mean those created by the Wind Fish's dreams? And called Darknuts? And several of them were statues at one point? ALttP - those knights have faces - the enemy ones had shadowy faces. While similar, the sprites are not the same, and thus it is easy to accept that they are Darknuts. Not once in the gamescript are Knights referred to as anything but Link's ancestors. At most, you have this:

"He cast spells on the soldiers"

Which does not indicate that he brainwashed them, at all - he cast spells on the maidens, too, and the King, and look how they turned out.

"Thats because she's Zelda,the bearer of the triforce, a above average Hylian no matter the game,not everyone Zora is as fat king Zora and not every Hylian is as awesome as Zelda."

No, she's NOT. Only in some games - in TMC, she has nothing but her own magical ability. The same in ALttP, OoA, OoS, FS - in FSA she is part of the shrine maidens, so you have that saving grace for you.

"Maple and Syrup are humans and many of the sages have been nonhylians like some of the maidens in a Link to the past[6] and Impa,Darunia,Nabooru,Saria,Ruto,Fado,Medli,Laruto,and Mako. "

The sages appear in other games - ALttP (not just the maidens, either), TP, FSA...and all of those are Hylian. In any case, all of those ALttP sprites are Hylians - you can see the pointy ears on the ones without long hair, which is most of them.

"Many(key word many not every single one) Hylians are wise and good spellcasters. The Links(as each Link is a different person) didn't start with a magic meter in Ocarania,Majora,Minish cap or Windwaker they had to have it given."

All, (key word all) Hylians have magical ability in advance of all of the non-divine races (i.e., excluding Minish, Oocca, Fairy). That is PUT FORTH IN THE BACKSTORY, and is held up by the games. Not all of them apply that ability, no - but each Hylian that applies his ability turns out to be pretty powerful - for example, random Hylians can sell Magic Beans, Intensely powerful Magic Potions, etc.

"We should just end this,we're not going to convince each other and I think we're wasting space."

That's due a lot to the fact that I have provided sources that back me up (Zelda.com, the ALttP manuals), and you pretty much haven't. But yeah, this discussion should probably be archived.KrytenKoro 02:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

You still don't believe the guards are human!! For the last time play THE DAMN REMAKE. In the beggining of the game there is a friendly guard(one of a couple,ever wonder what happened to the nice guards in the beggining) in Gold armor holding a sheild(only present in the remake) with a SHADOWY(because it is covered by his HELMET) face who points out that they are a slowly brainwashing the guards. Zelda also points out that defeating Agahnim will get the guards back to their senses. It says Agahnim cast spells on the guards. It is pointed out clearly that they are brainwashed.

The sages appear in other games - ALttP (not just the maidens, either), TP, FSA...and all of those are Hylian. In any case, all of those ALttP sprites are Hylians - you can see the pointy ears on the ones without long hair, which is most of them"

Actually when one of them is being raised you can see she has no pointed ears.

"All, (key word all) Hylians have magical ability in advance of all of the non-divine races (i.e., excluding Minish, Oocca, Fairy). " So your saying the lazy carpenters have more magical ability then Darunia,Maple,and Nabooru merely because they are Hylian. That is the stupidist thing I ever heard. Besides I already pointed that some Links don't start out with magic meters proving my point.

"That's due a lot to the fact that I have provided sources that back me up (Zelda.com, the ALttP manuals), and you pretty much haven't. But yeah, this discussion should probably be archived." Right taking an old manual over the games which prove that wrong. Delsait 04:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's the text for the remake. No where in there is the term "brainwashing" used, and Agahnim is only used in relation to the guards with the quote I've already given. If you're so sure that that's what was said, find the damn quote yourself, because I've already played this game with you.

At the very closest, there is this:

"After Agahnim took over, everyone began to act strangely. I suppose it's only a matter of time before I'm affected, too."

Now, he neither specifies who is acting strangely, how they're acting strangely, or what he means by "affected" - the range of possibilities can go so far as "Everyone's acting weird because they're afraid of him. I work out here, so I never go near him, but I might have to get close to him and be frightened by his evil aura, too." There's simply too much speculation in what you are proposing.

I found one that you might have been thinking about:

"If you defeat the wizard, the castle soldiers may regain their senses."

Which still doesn't explain why they explode like Like-Likes. And the fact that he cast spells on them according to the earlier quote could easily make them into magical constructs (or, egads, replace them with Darknuts, especially since Zelda turns out to be wrong about them).

Finally: the enemy is called Darknut/Tatnuc. I'm having trouble finding the ALttP version, but in the other games, that enemy is the Darknut.

"Actually when one of them is being raised you can see she has no pointed ears."

Zelda has pointy ears, the maidens do not show their ears, the woman has some kind of thing extending beyond normal ears would be, next woman has hood, again, blond guy has pointy ears, blue-haired has pointy ears, kid has pointy ears, teen has pointy ears, old man has no side shots and poofy hair, hat, hair, hat, pointy ears, long hair, pointy ears, pointy ears, hat, hood, mushroom, demon, dwarf thing, monkey, link's uncle has pointy ears, theives have pointy ears, bush, sick boy has pointy ears, hood, hat, fiary, animals, lumberjacks have pointy ears.

As far as I can tell, only the librarian could be construed to have normal ears - anyone else with visible ears has the Hylian version.

"So your saying the lazy carpenters have more magical ability then Darunia,Maple,and Nabooru merely because they are Hylian. That is the stupidist thing I ever heard. Besides I already pointed that some Links don't start out with magic meters proving my point."

...the hell? Possibly, but those three only have magic because Link awakened the powers of the elemental spirits that, as sages, they are allowed to wield (which is why the medallions specify their power as the "power of the water spirits", not "Ruto's power"). Second, the Carpenters, as you said, are lazy - they wouldn't practice their ability very much. (Example - Humans have better football ability than monkeys - however, some monkeys have better skill, because they practice more than humans who don't, and thus have no actual SKILL). Third - that's a pretty weak point, especially since Link uses magic in some games that he has no "magic bar" - and the magic bar only ever applies to magical TOOLS. It makes perfect sense for him to not need it for his own innate abilities, even if we hardly get to use them. (Ex., TP, LA, OoA, OoS all contained magical abilities/items - and yet no magic bar)

"Right taking an old manual over the games which prove that wrong."

...where? Show me just one instance where the games claim that the Hylians are not elf-like, and I will withdraw that claim. Show me one instance where they claim that Hylians, as a race, have less magical ability than the other common races, and I will withdraw that claim. As it stands, you have your pages of speculation, which are nearly always easily refuted by the games themselves, against the claims of the translators and creators of the games. I trust you can see which side the WP policies support.KrytenKoro 04:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"Now, he neither specifies who is acting strangely, how they're acting strangely, or what he means by "affected" - the range of possibilities can go so far as "Everyone's acting weird because they're afraid of him. I work out here, so I never go near him, but I might have to get close to him and be frightened by his evil aura, too." There's simply too much speculation in what you are proposing."

Zelda points out that defeating Agahnim will get the guards back to their senses,they use the same sprites as the evil guards(showing that the shadowy faces doesn't mean their evil but that their face is covered)Agahnim is said to cast a spell on the guards,the friendly guards disappear and are back to normal at the end. These show clearly that they are hylian guards that have been brainwashed somehow. They are the guards put under some sort of spell. The proof is being shoved in your face and your denying it.

"Which still doesn't explain why they explode like Like-Likes.

Because nintendo doesn't want their corpses to stay on the ground due to memory constraints. And if their going to get rid of the corpses might as well make them disappear in a cool rather then have them disappear or blink away. Its a Zelda tradition to have enemies explode.

.the hell? Possibly, but those three only have magic because Link awakened the powers of the elemental spirits that, as sages, they are allowed to wield (which is why the medallions specify their power as the "power of the water spirits", not "Ruto's power"). Second, the Carpenters, as you said, are lazy - they wouldn't practice their ability very much. (Example - Humans have better football ability than monkeys - however, some monkeys have better skill, because they practice more than humans who don't, and thus have no actual SKILL). Third - that's a pretty weak point, especially since Link uses magic in some games that he has no "magic bar"

Even if they carpenters trained they would not be able to match the six sages. Some Magic items don't need magic power which is why the have no meter,and like you said some. In some games, Link uses no magic at all.

"where? Show me just one instance where the games claim that the Hylians are not elf-like, and I will withdraw that claim. Show me one instance where they claim that Hylians, as a race, have less magical ability than the other common races, and I will withdraw that claim."

I am denying that hylians are elves not slightly similar. I never said that hylians had less magical abilities, I disagree with your claim that hylians are inately masters of magic and no non-hylian can surpass them in it. Discussion closed.

Delsait 05:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Zelda points out that defeating Agahnim will get the guards back to their senses,"

And she turns out to be wrong, which further implies that maybe she's f***ing wrong about why they're acting the way they are, too.

"they use the same sprites as the evil guards(showing that the shadowy faces doesn't mean their evil but that their face is covered)Agahnim is said to cast a spell on the guards,the friendly guards disappear and are back to normal at the end."

In every other game where the villain takes over the castle, he replaces the knights with 'Nuts - LA, OoT, TWW, FSA, TMC, TP - which makes me stop and think "maybe there might be a pattern". When we examine the evidence, we see nothing really rejecting that pattern, except Zelda's belief which turns out to be wrong. I agree that it is a possibility that the Knights were brainwashed - but the enemy is still called Darknut, and their is no incontrovertible evidence. For a further example - ReDeads, Gibdos - the people of Ikana - all were once humans, but spells were cast on them, and they became magical constructs - members of the Monster Tribe (well, Dead Tribe in this case). As for their faces - no, they don't have covered faces - it's a common "art cliche" to show something is zombie-like, possessed, or evil - their face becomes shadowed and their eyes blank white orbs. They are clearly not masks, as you can see still their eyes within the blackness.

"These show clearly that they are hylian guards that have been brainwashed somehow. They are the guards put under some sort of spell. The proof is being shoved in your face and your denying it."

Actually, since the original point was that the Hylians were "flawed", and you have completely admitted that their "evil" was not of their own doing, I'm not denying a thing - if anything, they would even better fit the Tolkien mold, as the Orcs in service of Melkor were Elves corrupted by Melkor's Magic. So, either I'm right that their enemy type is called Darknut (which is what they are called, in the very least in Japan (Tartnuk), and that, as the games show, they are members of the Monster Tribe, or you're right, and the Hylians similarity to Tolkien elves is strengthened. Choose.

":Because nintendo doesn't want their corpses to stay on the ground due to memory constraints. And if their going to get rid of the corpses might as well make them disappear in a cool rather then have them disappear or blink away. Its a Zelda tradition to have enemies explode."

You can't try to argue a matter from in-universe and then reject arguments against it as merely gameplay constraints, especially since ReDeads do just fall down, and the ornamentation to their death is much more than what it would need to be if you were correct - FF games, where monsters are just anything that the "heroes" dislike, have them simply disappear. Zelda enemies consistently burst into smoke. Again, choose - either you argue from a game-engine perspective, at which point this discussion is meaningless anyway, or you argue from the story of the games, which is again, supportive of Hylians having more magical ability.

"Even if they carpenters trained they would not be able to match the six sages. Some Magic items don't need magic power which is why the have no meter,and like you said some. In some games, Link uses no magic at all."

Prove it. You have absolutely no proof that they could not achieve. As for not using magic - in TMC, he uses magic all the time, but has no magic bar. In fact, in nearly every game he uses a fair amount of magic - and by definition, a magical item runs on magic - you can't say that it is magical if magic isn't a part of its use.

"I am denying that hylians are elves not slightly similar. I never said that hylians had less magical abilities, I disagree with your claim that hylians are inately masters of magic and no non-hylian can surpass them in it. Discussion closed."

...for your first sentence, what I'm reading is that you are denying that Hylians ARE elves, but that you agree that they are slightly similar - this is directly contradictory to every change you have made to the article, and the entire basis of this dispute. If your argument is otherwise, then I'm sorry, but you've given little if any proof against it.

You say over and over that the Carpenters, among others, have much less magical ability. As for "innately masters of magic" - no, I've said that they had more magical "ability" - meaning potential. I never said that every Hylian was Old Man-level in magical prowess - I even explained that I thought non-Hylian could surpass a Hylian if the Hylian slacked off and the non-Hylian worked hard (I might actually be wrong - as explained below, you don't actually see much if any magic from non-Hylians, disregarding Ganondorf and Twinrova). In any case, you still have never given proof that one of the other races (besides the three sacred ones) have any more magical ability than the Hylians.

For the Sages - it is made clear that the elemental sages only have their power because they were blessed by the elements - notice that none of them act as anything more than a normal member of their race until after they have deceased and gone on to the Chamber of Sages, and that the OoT Medallions specifically say that contain the power of the elemental spirits, not the Sages themselves. Furthermore, every instance of a non-Hylian sage using its power relies on praying to the Goddesses - they are basically priests, nothing more (In TWW, this is the only thing they do). All the other sages - those who can use magic themselves, instead of merely asking the Goddesses to grant them a favor, are HYLIAN.

"Discussion Closed"

I'm perfectly fine with that, if you're agreeing to abide by the citing policy, where actual official sources overrule fan theories.KrytenKoro 15:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And she turns out to be wrong, which further implies that maybe she's f***ing wrong about why they're acting the way they are, too."

No she isn't they are friendly when Ganon who is actually Agahnim is defeated.

Well, since Link killed all of the Darknuts (what you call "unfriendly guards"), it's a bit odd that Zelda claims that they became good. As for defeating Ganon - you "defeat his alter ego" - i.e., Agahnim, before you defeat him, so if Zelda was right, the knights should have been good by then - they are not, however. In any case - how does Zelda know so much about how and what spells Agahnim cast, if she is unable to warn anyone but Link?KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In every other game where the villain takes over the castle, he replaces the knights with 'Nuts - LA, OoT, TWW, FSA, TMC, TP - which makes me stop and think "maybe there might be a pattern". When we examine the evidence, we see nothing really rejecting that pattern, except Zelda's belief which turns out to be wrong. I agree that it is a possibility that the Knights were brainwashed - but the enemy is still called Darknut, and their is no incontrovertible evidence. For a further example - ReDeads, Gibdos - the people of Ikana - all were once humans, but spells were cast on them, and they became magical constructs - members of the Monster Tribe (well, Dead Tribe in this case). As for their faces - no, they don't have covered faces - it's a common "art cliche" to show something is zombie-like, possessed, or evil - their face becomes shadowed and their eyes blank white orbs. They are clearly not masks, as you can see still their eyes within the blackness."

If it showed that they were evil or possesed then why are the guards with shadowy faces so friendly to Link in the beggining of the game. Their faces aren't made out of shadow,they are covered by the helmet and their eyes are glowing.

Again, no, their faces are uncovered, but in shadow. As for the golden guard - I don't know. Possibly that was what he meant by "it's starting to affect me" - he was being turned into a Darknut. In any case, its impossible to know, because nothing really concrete is said.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, since the original point was that the Hylians were "flawed", and you have completely admitted that their "evil" was not of their own doing, I'm not denying a thing - if anything, they would even better fit the Tolkien mold, as the Orcs in service of Melkor were Elves corrupted by Melkor's Magic. So, either I'm right that their enemy type is called Darknut (which is what they are called, in the very least in Japan (Tartnuk), and that, as the games show, they are members of the Monster Tribe, or you're right, and the Hylians similarity to Tolkien elves is strengthened. Choose."

I don't even care about that anymore. My main point right now is that the guards are not evil just corrupted and or brainwashed by Ganon. Besides unlike orcs,the guards could be reddeemed.

Again - you need to provide proof, since (at least in my playthrough) not a single aggressive guard survived. It's also interesting to note that none of this "redemption" occurs until after Link uses the Triforce - the same time when he brings the dead back to life.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"::...for your first sentence, what I'm reading is that you are denying that Hylians ARE elves, but that you agree that they are slightly similar - this is directly contradictory to every change you have made to the article, and the entire basis of this dispute. If your argument is otherwise, then I'm sorry, but you've given little if any proof against it.

You say over and over that the Carpenters, among others, have much less magical ability. In any case, you still have never given proof that one of the other races (besides the three sacred ones) have any more magical ability than the Hylians."

Those edits were a long time ago. The carpenters have less magical ability because they are lazy morons. Anyway I got the impression that Sheikah were more skilled at magic then hylians from the few ones we saw, look at how Impa easily teleported. As for others there is the the wind tribe who can control the wind. Keaton who can teleport,Oocca who created the Hylians,the Minish the creator several magic items,and fairies.

....Keaton is a spirit, not a race. It shouldn't be on here - it's based on the kitsune, like Naruto's Kyuubi. In fact, in TMC, it is a completely magical creature, as well as a monster.

Sheikah - Impa and Sheik used Ninja tricks - you even see Sheik use a Deku Nut at one point to mask her/his escape. Being "masters of stealth", as the game explains, is far different from using magic like "Farore's Wind" - for an example, compare Sheik and Zelda's teleports in Super Smash Bros Melee.

Fairy, Minish, Oocca - again, these are the Divine races - Some fairies are even called Gods, Minish are from the Sacred Realm, and Oocca, well - the game says there's a legend that they created the Hylians, but besides being able to teleport, they don't seem that magical. Oh well.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"As for "innately masters of magic" - no, I've said that they had more magical "ability" - meaning potential. I never said that every Hylian was Old Man-level in magical prowess - I even explained that I thought non-Hylian could surpass a Hylian if the Hylian slacked off and the non-Hylian worked hard"

Well at least we agree on something. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Delsait (talk • contribs) 17:31, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

" (I might actually be wrong - as explained below, you don't actually see much if any magic from non-Hylians, disregarding Ganondorf and Twinrova)." Gorons created the magic bracelet,Zoras have used several magic items and a magic song was required to enter their city,Gerudo's created the ice arrows ""instead of merely asking the Goddesses to grant them a favor, are HYLIAN."

I already pointed out the non hylian sage in a Link to the past.

...All human ALttP characters are Hylians. This was even covered in the original manual. They have pointy ears and everything.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with that, if you're agreeing to abide by the citing policy, where actual official sources overrule fan theories."

Thats what you've been doing with your belief that other species in zelda can't use magic which has been directly proved wrong.

I never said that they can't use magic - I said they had less innate magical ability, which the manual directly claims and the games do not refute.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"::Prove it. You have absolutely no proof that they could not achieve."

How much magic does it take to use a slingshot,the only thing Link could do that could be considered magic before he got his meter was his Ocarina songs which other species could do.

Delsait 17:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

...we were talking about the Carpenters gettin "Old Man" or "ALttP Sage" level magical ability, not Slingshots. And he uses magic in other games besides OoT.

Please use colons to separate yours and my comments, and you only need the first two words or in quotes for me to know what you're responding to.KrytenKoro 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In OoT he uses no real magic items until he gets the magic meter. I'm done with this,its like talking to a wall. Delsait 18:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, not that it has anything to do with the conversation (which makes it hard to figure out what point you are trying to make), and I'm still not sure why not having a "magic meter" rules out other Hylians (or even if it is necessary in the first place) but...

• LoZ: No Magic Meter, able to use Magic Key, Magic Wand, innately able to perform "Sword Beam", and Magical Sword forged by an "Old Man"
• AoL: Magic Meter obtained from the beginning, many abilities taught by apparent Hylians
• ALttP: Magic Meter obtained with Lamp. Innately able to perform "Whirling Blade"
• LA: No Magic Meter, innately able to perform "Whirling Blade", able to use "Magic Powder", "Magic Rod", "Roc's Feather", play magical songs on Ocarina, use Heart Containers, Magnifying Lens
• OoT: Magic Meter obtained from Great Fairy, able to use Whirling Blade before getting magic meter; also able to play magical songs on Fairy Ocarina (though arguably by virtue of the Ocarina)
• MM: Magic Meter obtained from Great Fairy, but Ocarina is allegedly able for use without it (judging by intro video)
• OoA/OoS: No Magic Meter, able to use Harp of Ages, Rod of Seasons, innately able to perform "Whirling Blade", able to use the Essences of Time and Nature
• FS: No Magic Meter, magic sword techs innately performable (though it could be argued that that is by virtue of the Four Sword)
• TWW: Magic Meter obtained with Deku Leaf, Wind Waker available for use before obtaining magic meter. Arguably by virtue of the Wind Waker, but again, it was created by Hylians
• FSA: No Magic Meter, many magic sword techs (though, again, arguably by virtue of Four Sword)
• TMC: No Magic Meter, about 11 magical abilities taught by a Hylian and performed innately, not including other abilities
• TP: No Magic Meter, innately able to perform multiple sword techniques taught to him by another, esp. "Great Spin Attack". Also, Dominion Rod and Ancient Sky Book allegedly created by Ancient Hylians in order to communicate with Oocca
• In general: Ocarina of Time, Master Sword, and Temples built by Hylians - not Sages, not Chosen, but just Hylians. The Gorons made a hammer and a tunic, the Zora made a tunic/armor, the Kokiri made a wooden shield. The Koroks have magic leaves that the Deku Tree gave them (though the Kokiri are spirits, so they might be considered one of the "Divine Races").
• Also - the Wind Tribe uses Kinstones to perform their magic, according to those in the Tower. They might have their own abilities, but they weren't even able to return home without Link using Kinstones - it's not a bad assumption to think that their Tower was built using Kinstones, not their own magic.

"I'm done with this,its like talking to a wall."

Yes, because you keep assuming that because you believe something, it's undeniably true - that's wrong. You may be right, you may be wrong, but I have no obligation to accept your version of events unless it, at the least, makes more sense than my own. So far, yours doesn't.KrytenKoro 20:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually the spining sword is not magic unless the magic meter is involved. In the begining of Ocarania,your sword spin is completly normal and unmagical. Regular non-hylian swordsmen can also perform it[7]. Thats my final word. Delsait 01:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

See, the most hilarious thing is that Ralph can't even do it correctly - though it's not clear whether or not he is a Hylian. If he is, then it shows that he can at least handle the magical technique, even without practice. If he isn't, then it shows that he can't hope to have the level of ability that Link has, even though Link was just riding through the woods shortly before he was able to perform the Whirling Blade perfectly.

Also - the "This is this way except when I don't want it to be" style of debate is very, very weak. At the beginning of Ocarina - it's still the exact same technique that is used in all other games besides TP, where the magical version is what is taught, and used without a magic meter.KrytenKoro 04:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop for a second. I have a question. What exactly does this have to do with the article?? I would just like to hear, without bickering, what exactly each would add to this article if they "won". Just for shits N' giggles. DurinsBane87 04:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The "elf-like" with citation that is already there. I was under the impression Delsait was still trying to contest that - if he's not, I'm not entirely sure what's going on.KrytenKoro 04:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Gerudo?

When in Wind Waker did they outright say that the Gerudo are extinct? Their desert certainly doesn't exist any more, and they don't show up in the game, but to say that the Gerudo are extinct is just speculation, and as such, should not be stated as a fact in this article. Demota 17:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it is speculation, that's why it says "apparently"; and I'm pretty sure the game mentions the dark fate that befell the Gerudo, either in the beginning, or in flashback by Ganon or the king, but don't take my memory as 100% accurate. -- VederJuda 17:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. I recently completed Wind Waker, and don't recall any mention of the fate of the Gerudo at all, though. Ganondorf did mention that life in the desert was harsh, but that was really about it. - Demota 19:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The Gerudo are probably a rare race, judging that there are only a few locations where they're seen. Ganondorf said that living in the Gerudo Valley was nearly impossible. Some-one may have missunderstood it and stated they were extinct. croc-koopa 20:10, 26 February 2006

Well, the pirates on Majora's Mask look the same as the Gerudos, and in Majora's Mask, there was no desert, so possibly they took in a new way of living? So if that's the case, they could possibly have stayed as the pirates and were already used to sea life in Wind Waker, just they never made any appearances? --63.160.254.215 14:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

How can they possibly be involved in TWW? They're from an alternate dimension! Setokaiba^✌_≝ 18:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't saying the Termina ones came over, merely that the Hyrulian Gerudos could become pirates as well.

Hasn't Miyamoto said that every Zelda game takes place 100 years after the last one? That means that they are not at all form a different dimension (and the enitre POINT of the wind waker is the way it's a sequel to OOT, taking place in the same world and all.) Zeck 14:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Zeck - Miyamoto has said no such thing... that's inflating something he at best said about two particular games to apply to all of them. Anyway, there is no way the pirates of Majora's Mask are involved in Wind Waker *because* that is in an "alternate" world OoT Link ends up in... not that Wind Waker is in an alternate world to the one of OoT. 72.192.237.134 16:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)Ismail

The Pirates in Majora's Mask could be real. I thought the alternate dimension was speculative. Is it written somewhere that it is, in fact, an alternate dimension? Megadecimal 2 November 2006

So you think the pirates are real, but the world they live in and that they're USED to living in is speculative? Romani, Anju, Kafei, Darmani, the Indigo-Gos... these are (within the fictional work) real people living in a real world... it wasn't just created out of a whim when Link stepped into it... otherwise all the people wouldn't be real either or would've been wondering where their own world had gone and how they'd ended up there. 72.192.237.134 02:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC) Ismail

Aren't the gerudos already extinct in Twilight Princess anyway? The only ones left are Ganondorf and Impaz, right? Chutup 10:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Impaz would be a Sheikah, not Gerudo. Okay, I'm gonna copy and paste something I posted earlier today in a forum. 5. Why do people keep assuming that if one or more games don't feature a certain race, the race is most likely dead? I didn't see any Green Chu-Chu is TP, but I highly doubt they didn't exist. Do I have to assume the Moblin race died out in TP? Or the Kokiri? Is there really no possibility that the Rito already are around? Or that the Oocca didn't exist in OOT? The Gerudo also appeared in FSA, which I think comes after TP. People who keep saying the FS-games are an alternative universe are either too stupid to come up with a better explanation or haven't played the games at all. Anyway, I remember the Gerudo Fortress to be a little more to the south. Also, if that was the whole desert, where's the Spirit Temple?DreamingLady 15:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There are Green Chu in Twilight Princess. Just to piss you off, but you have to let a yellow and blue Chu fuse. Wala!

While it certainly *seems* that the Gerudo may be extinct... don't we have semi-verification in the fact that Ganondorf was stated to be the only male of his kind? Presumably, as the only male, it was most-likely his job to mate with the females (there are certain real species which follow similar tends, certain insects with one female queen and thousands of male drones for example)... but I digress. As Ganondorf was "trapped" in the sacred realm it makes sense that his species would perish in the time that had passed... without his erm... intervention.

Totally and compltely wrong: Ganondorf was the only naturally born male OF THAT CENTURY - new ones were born every 100 years. Furthermore, they mate with Hylians. Play Ocarina of Time again, and pay more attention. It was Ganondorf's job to lead the tribe to glory, not just to provide DNA.

!!!Minor Twilight Princess spoilers ahead!!!

Even taking all that into consideration, there's a certain level of evidence that suggests the Twili race, as they were before becoming the Twili... are actually the Gerudo. This is evident in the fact that the Twili's backstory is that their races' leader tried to take a great power in Hyrule, and after he was defeated they were exiled by the Gods and became the Twili in this new twilight realm. One would assume the Gerudo females *would* be punished for following Ganondorf in his evil ways. Not to mention the fact that the gateway to the Twilight world is in the now barren Gerudo desert.

Of course, this speculation is based on evidence, but it is speculation nonetheless. Bottom line: there's a good chance the Gerudo are either extinct from having no male to procreate with, or that they became the Twili, but it would *seem* that they're gone either way. --156.34.73.117 12:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it was stated only one male Gerudo is born every 100 years. There's evidence that more males have Gerudo mommies. But they are from the Hylian race. Feel free to compare the Gerudo to ants or bees, however, note that their colonies don't live that long. A system like that has too many downsides for more complicated creatures. And I doubt, in all of TLOZs history, never before did the Gerudo lose their king. They'll survive it, either because Hylians, Humans and who knows who else are fine for reproduction purposes as well or because there are likely more Gerudo tribes.

Never has it been said that the Twili's ever were one race before becoming the Twili (I go with the theory they were just powerfull magic users from various tribes and races) and never has it been stated it was only their leader who was to blame for it. Midna never said they lost their king due to the whole banishing thing. The Twili have been around for a long time....did nothing bad happen in between? Doubt it. DreamingLady 14:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Still, it's merely speculation. Of course it's as much not a possibility as much as it is. It could go either way, really (so you could easily be right). However, in reply to one particular thing you said, "Midna never said they lost their king due to the whole banishing thing"... that could go either way as well. Either the Gerudo could have lost their king due to being banished, or in a sense, they could have lost their king after Ganondorf had lost the final battle in OOT with Link. But that's assuming they're the Gerudo at all, which they may not be.

Personally though, and this is just my speculative opinion, I'm leaning towards are, there's a lot of subtle hints that suggest it, which could easily mean nothing, but I like to think the LOZ universe is a little more connected than that. It's nice to think that at the end of the day all the little plot threads could tie together. --156.34.82.120 14:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

No, they never said that they lost their king - they said "they're king was lost to greed." totally different. As for being Gerudo - Twilight Princess says they were a "Tribe of interlopers, skilled in the Dark Arts.", and that they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm, failed, and were exiled to the Twilight Realm. Ganondorf (OoT) was the first to actually get the Triforce (according to the game), and so the Twili must have necessarily come before - perhaps they were the reason that the Master Sword and Temple of Time were built to guard the gate. Furthermore, the Gerudo don't seem to use magic as a tribe in any of the games - Twinrova, Veran, and Onox do, but they do not constitute a "Tribe".
And, ah, their desert still does exist. That's why it's called the "Gerudo Desert".

Subrosians

In what game(s) did they appear? I had never heard of them until now. -Unknown

Oracle of Seasons Setokaiba^✌_≝ 12:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

They appeared in one of the oracle games, you probably haven't played it user:selmaelbeyati

BTW Subrosia seems a corruption of sub rosa, Latin for “under the rose”, a phrase connotating secrecy. This may be symbolic of the Subrosians secret nature. Zidel333 04:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure they only come up to link's knee in hight? I'm not sure where it says that, as I'd imagine it'd be rather difficulte to intract with, dance with, and have things forged for you by someone about 1/4 of your hight.

Zora Evolution

Is it necessary to have such a long persuasive explanation about the evolution of the Zoras into the Rito? Although I personally support the theory, I don't think it deserves more than a passing mention in an encyclopedia article such as this. Would anyone object if I cleaned it up? -Luigi2 | Talk 03:50, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

All the information is on its own page, the Zora page. You could just delete the evolution stuff, it's all there. -- A Link to the Past 22:50, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

I do agree with it. On a different topic what does anyone think about spinning the legend of Zelda series into it's own novel franchise such as Forgotten Realms? The books could take place in the different Realms of Zelda and could spark a new franchise!

Personally, I see no reason that this theory should receive more than a passing mention (if any) in the wikipedia. Granted, I'm not part of the online community that has probably discussed this ad nauseum in the past, but I'm a long time fan and I see this is as nothing more than a crazy fan theory with little or nothing to back it up. The fact that there are Zoras in several games that come after WW in the chronology torpedoes this theory, IMHO. Robotpoop

All of the evolution stuff is theory. It may sound good, but it is nothing more than that. Therefore, it should not presented as rock solid fact when there is no actual proof that the Wind Waker is taking place hundreds of years after OOT. I mean, I personally beleive it is the same Link, Zelda, ect. from the previous games set up in a different type of world. If you look at the Zelda series, most games are not in sequence with the others. A few are, such as OOT and MM, but most aren't. If they were, why would Link have to meet Zelda every time? Does he forget who she is? No, because they haven't met yet! Does he lose the Master Sword at the end of each game and have to go find it at the start of the next? No, because he is discovering it for the first time in each game. Most games set Link up in a slightly altered version of Hyrule and a brand new adventure takes place that has no connections to the previous ones. And, in rference to the idea of WW coming so far after OOT, are you going to tell me that there are multiple Hero's of Time? That, coincidently, after Link is done wielding the Master's Sword, that hundreds of years later the next person to weild it is also name Link? And he has to fight a man named Ganondorf and save the princess, who's name is Zelda, just like the previous Link? These ideas are ludacrious. Does Twighltight Princess occur two thousand years after WW when the water evaporates? Of course not! But, arguments aside, I still don't think we should say "This is what happened" when we don't really know.

How about one world, multiple incarnations. It is, after all, a legend, so it does not necessarily have to follow that logically. I presume that you are also ignoring what Aonuma-san and Miyamoto-san have said about "WW is 100s of years after OoT", and "TP is decades after OoT". Plus, there's all the in-game facts, like the stained-glass windows with the 6 sages, and the mentions of the Hero of Time. (There is only one Hero of Time, the Link in OoT.) The reason that most people think that Hyrule is the same Hyrule for most of the series is that the geography of the land is similar in most of the games. Setokaiba^✌_≝ 11:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It is the same Link and the same world, but a different story. WW is not connected to OOT in any way. End of story. As for the reincarnation theory, that is possible, however unproven. The game never made any references to reincarnation, so for one thing you don't even know that it happens in the games. (Which, by the way, dosen't happen in real life either.) Also, even if they did get reincarnated, it wouldn't be into themselves. The theroy dosen't work that way. Link into Link. I don't think so. Link is the same person in every game, but the world is almost like it resets and he has a nw adventure. The reason they do this is to sell games. If they weren all connected, fans would only want to see Link beat Ganon only to have him return a certain amount of times. It would get old. But if they had never fought before, then you aren't as sure of what will happen and it keeps the series alive and interesting.

So you are completely ignoring what the creators of the game that you enjoy enough to write these paragraphs about say regarding their chronology? But, whatever, its a free world. However, Wikipedia is about facts based on cited references, and since they have said these things, they are recorded in the article. Removing them based solely on your own desire to ignore them is obviously your opinion, which does not belong in a Wikipedia article, unless it is a common consensus and therefore notable.

And please sign your comments, and indent them with ":" if necessary. Setokaiba^✌_≝ 19:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

They never once say for sure that what the order is. They make hints as to what the possibilities are, but they do not state tham as facts. Even with their hints, the order is not known. And I will not sign my articles.

Ocarina of Time is specifically based on the legend that LttP was based on (the one with the sages) Majora's Mask IS IT'S SEQUEL The two Oracle games are at least implied to happen after Link to the Past: Ganon has actually been killed (in all the earlier others, he is only sealed), Link knows where the Triforce is, and he is the Hero of the Triforce. Also, the boat he set sail on strongly implies it is the boat from Link's awakening, ESPECIALLY considering many of the monsters and bosses are from the Oracle and LttP games (Facade, Smasher, Angler Fish, and the Jabu-JAbu/CAtfish MAw dungeons as case in point), and Link's Awakening is specifically said to be some time after Link to the Past The Adventure of Link is a direct sequel to the Legend of Zelda The Wind Waker is put to follow Ocarina of Time, references Link going to Termina, and is set after Ganon escaped his seal For example, in Ocarina of Time, Ganon FINDS the triforce, in most of the others, he already has it Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to WW

The list is long of concrete details that show that the Zelda series have a semi-definite ordered timeline, and that there are certainly more than one Link/Zelda Heck, the first two games had two zeldas and one Link.

The simplest of timelines is something like this:
Minish Cap: origin of monsters (Bound Chest), Triforce not even known, Four Sword/Master Sword/Picori Blade not cursed Ocarina of Time>Majora's Mask: finding of Triforce, origin of Dark World, Ganon
--some centuries, according to text FROM WIND WAKER--
Wind Waker>Phantom Hourglass: Ganon's escape attempt foiled, manifestation of SOME OF HIS POWER (notice he says that most of it is sealed in the Dark World) stopped
--more centuries--
Presumably Four Swords>Four Swords Adventures, for several reasons:
1: Vaati is concretely destroyed
2: Hyrule is drying up, but still surrounded by water
3: Ganon is sealed in the cursed Four Sword, and its shattered pieces are found in the Pyramid in LttP
--more time--
Link to the Past>Oracle of Ages>Oracle of Seasons>Link's Awakening
Link kills Ganon IN THE DARK WORLD, where his true body was sealed in Ocarina of Time, Agahnim, an avatar of Ganon much like Ganondorf from Wind Waker, is killed, and the Triforce is reclaimed Link checks on it, is sent to Labrynna and Holodrum to halt Twinrova from resurrecting the dead Ganon, succeeds, and leaves for home, crashing on Koholint.
Important that Link did "train in foreign lands", and has many of the same items (which enforces the dream bit) in Oracles, as it said in L's A.
Also, why Ages before Seasons: Bipin's ancestor is in Labrynna, so it would not make sense for him to move TO Labrynna, as he must have been born there, and in a linked game of S>A, Impa does not recognize Link, while in A>S, she does. Also, in S>A, somehow the Subrosians have timetravelled for no reason to Labrynna, even while the Oracle is possessed---makes no sense
Finally, after some more time, Legend of Zelda>Adventure of Link
Twilight Princess goes in there somewhere too
I admit that some of this (Oracle between Link's Awakening and Link to the Past, along with Four Swords series) is conjecture, but the rest is solidly stated in the games, and even the producer said there was a definite timeline, though he produced one that had many inconsistencies.

Ah yes, the Zora/Rito evolution concept. While personally I can believe it (based on the Koroks and Twili alone), it always struck me as a bit far fetched. After all, here is a race of creatures that live under water, and yet the second the area they live completely floods and adapts becoming what is essentially their natural habitat... they evolve into a completely different creature? It just seems odd. For a while it was believable because we all assumed the freezing of the Zora's Domain in OOT left them practically extinct, but that was before TP came along and showed the Zoras post-OOT in abundance. So while it's still a hot topic, I think recent events make it all that more debatable. --156.34.73.117 13:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Evolution does not necessitate the entire group changing - splinter groups are actually the more common idea. Wind Waker presents details all the way down to STAINED-GLASS WINDOWS to prove that it comes after OoT, and that it is a different Link (unless you believe that Link is immortal, selectively amnesiac, and all his "relatives" are very committed to lying to him). Medli is stated as being of Laruto's bloodline, and the Rito exhibit the Zora Tribe's symbol in many places, such as on Medli or in their dwelling. They are physiologically similar in many ways, etc.

YES, it is a fan theory, but nowhere near the groundlessness of a "crazy" one.128.211.174.165 18:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, considering Nintendo's habit of recycling characters (or look-a-likes), those windows prove nothing. While I too think OOT comes before TWW, all arguments can be countered. :) And while I have the chance: What are people talking about? I found the Zora symbol only twice on Dragonroost: Medli's outfit and Komali's necklace. One can easily be explained, the other isn't that much of a problem either considering his grandma knew about Medli's lineage and may have held some stuff for her family.DreamingLady 20:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

While the presence of the Zora symbol around Dragonroost and Medli's purported ancestry are somewhat compelling arguments, there is no reason for a fan theory to be on the article. I might also note that the entire world of Wind Waker is covered in water. There would be no need for the Zora to "adapt" to that. It's a perfect environment for them! Furthermore, think about Greatfish Island, the dwelling-place of Jabun. Both his titular and physical similarities to Jabu Jabu suggest that he is the patron god of the Zoras. Of course, Greatfish Island got seriously wrecked. Perhaps Zora living there all died in the calamity. Anyhow, the Rito, it appears, just serve as a race that kind of "replaces" the role of the exotic Zora species in the plot. Anyhow, this is all totally impertinent because as I said, theories should be kept to online fora rather than Wikipedia articles. (Sausagerooster 07:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

It's not so much part of a fan theory - Laruto calls Medli her descendant, parallel to how Fado calls Makar his (and we know those two are linked). So, we say that it is possible they evolved, or it may be a more metaphorical meaning of descendant. Also - Zora have never really lived "in the deep" - in MM and OoA, they are by the shore, or in OoT, ALttP, and LoZ, they live in freshwater lakes. True Seas would not be good for them.

Also, Jabun looks very little like Jabu-Jabu, besides being piscine. However, Jabu-Jabu is quite whale-like, and Jabun is an Angler Fish.KrytenKoro 03:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Messy

The article restates thinsg already said in the article multiple times, and often refers to 'the video game ocarine of time' even though we know that's what we're reading about. this was obviously merged from multiple articles, and it's still incredibly redundant and messy. i'm not an authority on these matters, though. i might change some stuff, but id like to know if there's anyone out ehre who feels the same way? Lockeownzj00 19:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is rather a mess, and yes it has been merged from a heap of pages (see Special:Whatlinkshere/The Legend of Zelda series races for the list). Between this and the characters and enemies pages, I haven't had time to do much beyond the merge itself. Feel free to clean it up as much or as little as you can, I really don't have the time to help with that right now. Garrett^Talk 23:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Starting some cleanup

So, I've started some clean-up on this article. Still some way to go, but I thought I'd ask about some particularly confusing bits in the Talk in the hope that someone can explain them.

• Dekus: "They can shoot nuts out of their mouths, similarly to how octoroks shoot rocks. Unfortunately, this also means they can't swim without drowning."

...what? How do these two facts go together?

That they're mouth is not a breathing hole, or some other reason. The one given above actually comes straight from the games, so what are you gonna do?

• Gerudo: ...in the manga, they appear most as arab harem-style figures, which is more truthful than to call them bird-like."

But then, in the Goron section: "...but the manga are considered non-canonical." So, personally, I think this should go, or have a similar note.

• Gorons: Section: "Gorons and Discworld trolls: Gorons and the trolls of Discworld bear a bit of resemblance. They both eat rocks, and Gorons appear to grow rocks (perhaps better termed boulders in old-age) in their backs so when they die they leave rocky corpse. With as big as some Gorons get mountains could be formed from their corpses much as old trolls become mountains."

...um... so what does this have to do with anything? This seems to be nothing but speculation from someone who is apparently both a fan of Zelda and Discworld; I think this section should go. That's all for the moment. What do my fellow Wikipedians think? --Sparky Lurkdragon 00:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC) Yeah wth does Discworld have to do with Zelda? --Saimdusan

Deku Flower to Majora's Mask relocation

I believe that the deku flower should be relocated to Majora's Mask Article and Oracle of Seasons and Ages articles -Unknown

Deku Flowers have more to do with the Deku race than those games themselves... --Tryforceful 21:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Image captions

Is there some reason why Ganondorf's image is the only one with a caption, it looks out of place. I say we either delete it or add captions to the other images.VederJuda 02:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ganondorf is special (he is male), that's why he gets the caption.selmaelbeyati

Well, he's special in the context of his race, but not when just representing his race... Tyciol 03:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Gerudo lifespan?

There is no evidence whatsoever that Gerudo (short of Ganondorf, Koume, and Kotake, all of whom dabble in dark magic) have extended lifespans or that Gerudo men kill or are responsible for the deaths of future Gerudo men, so I removed these little tidbits of speculation. The point is made entirely moot anyway, since a Gossip Stone does say that Gerudo look for Hylian boyfriends... unfortunately, I'm in no particularly good position to take a screenshot right this moment (I don't even remember which Gossip Stone it is) so I used my "source" as a text dump on GameFAQs. As noted in my invisible comment, a Control-F search for the word "boyfriend" will instantly bring you to the passage in question. --HeroicJay 08:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
PS. As an added note, both of GameFAQs' Gossip Stone FAQs say that the relevant stone is just outside of the Temple of Time. --HeroicJay 08:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the speculation. This was prior to introduction of the idea of their taking boyfriends of other races (and presumably, producing offspring with them). The problem here, is that in Ocarina of Time, it is difficult to tell whether or not the different peoples can breed. I am of the default stance that they are separate races unable to breed with one another. Certain hentai manga tend to disagree with me to the point of having Ruto and Link having a kid... Either way, is there any evidence in the game that Gerudo and Hylians are of the same species and produce offspring? I think that is actually speculation. I can see the Gerudo women taking boyfriends of other races due to boredom (not enough males to go around), but that doesn't mean they can have babies with them. Tyciol 05:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems kinda weasely to me to come up with a long explanation of how the Gerudo can continue to exist without crossbreeding with Hylians when there's a much simpler (and at least somewhat supported by the game) explanation of how they continue to exist with them. Occam's Razor, you know. I mean, do you assume that the race dies out after Ganondorf is imprisoned in the Golden Land at the end of the game? (Well, I suppose there's nothing saying that they don't, but my point is that any king that dies before their hundred years is up would put an end to the Gerudo race if he was their only method of reproduction.) --HeroicJay 07:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that they may be subspecies, but for some reason have the Gerudo gene as dominant. --Saimdusan

I didn't know where or how to properly bring up this information, but in "Twilight Princess," I recall Ganondorf bearing pointed ears similar to Hylians and not the rounded ones assumed to be typical of Gerudo. Is this information important for this page?

I was wondering about that too. In Windwaker I just thought the pointy ears on Ganon was a just typo. But now I'm getting suspicous. Maybe when a gerudo male procreates with a hylian female it creates a pointy eared gerudo? Or maybe its a rare mutation? I wonder what the deal with the gerudo gene is anyway? It must be pretty powerful,otherwise the gerudo race would eventually be breed out of existance. Delsait

You can't take these things too seriously, his appearance, that is. It's merely a difference in artistic style, at least one would assume that's all it is. I mean, in OOT he doesn't have a beard, in Wind Waker and/or Twilight Princess he does. In OOT and TP he's relatively fit looking, but in Wind Waker he has a pot belly. In OOT he has a more pointy-ish nose, in TP/WW it's more rounded. I sincerely doubt these are plot points at all, merely a difference in artistic style. If you really want to get technical look at Link's sprite in LttP, he has purple hair (not in the art, just in sprite form), yet every other Link incarnation has had light brown, dirty blond, or blond hair. It's just not an important detail.

It just comes down to the artistic style of each game. But, as fans we like to nitpick, so if you have to... why not look at such details as each Link's perception of the world around him. Wind Waker's Link may perhaps have had a young fresh lighthearted outlook on the world, whereas Twilight Princess' Link may have seen things in a more down-to-earth way being older and wiser, for example. So perhaps each Link perceives Ganondorf slightly differently through their own unique world-view. --156.34.79.42 15:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Simple Deletion

I deleted the following sentence in the Rito section. "However, they are in fact far off decendants of the Zora, much like the Koroks are to the Kokiri."

Since the same information is already discussed in the spoiler section, this sentence was extraneous. Also, since this information is also in the spoiler section and is not uncovered until the player is well into WW, I didn't feel that it belonged alongside the general information. Unknown - 22:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Renamed to "Deku"

I have renamed the "Deku Scrubs" section to "Deku", as it is a more accomodating name for the race of Deku Scrubs. One would say the "Zora race" or "Goron race", but "Deku Scrub race" does not fit as well. Also, titles from Majora's Mask like "Deku Palace" suggest that Deku Scrubs are only a select species in the broader Deku race.

--Tryforceful 15:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

More Races

Also to be included should be the Dead Tribe (gibdos, poes, stalfos) and Dark tribes (moblins, darknuts, etc,), as they are shown to be sentient and at least have speech. In WW, Moblins were shown to interact with hylians, and in MM, the Dead tribe was able to be talked with peacefully. Humans (non-Hylians, round ears, that kind of thing), and the Animal Race (the talking monkeys, rabbits, bears, etc) are also in the game. One more race that should be included is the Fishmen. Though they all look and sound the same in Wind Waker, the one you meet solidly says that he will tell his family/clan to help you, and that means that there are 49 of them: far more than there are even Rito, Koroks, or Hylians in the game. 74.140.118.84 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We must also include the Twili, a race introduced in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I don't have enough information to write about them, so if you have played the game, please incorporate this race to this article. Thanks. 15:06, 23 November 2006

I don't think Dark tribes and Dead tribes are really races like this page talks about, they are monsters like it is said in The Minish Cap, they are more like dangerous beasts and there are too many races of monsters. I don't think that Ordonian is a race, they are normal humans (that is a race to be talked about) like other characters in the series (in A Link to the Past for examples). It's true that Talking animals and Mermen (not Fishmen like it is said on Zelda website) have to be included. Other races : Fairy, Deity (like Valoo, Zephos or even the Light Spirits of Twilight Princess), Garo Ninja, Ikana Army, Piratian (the skeleton pirates of Oracle of Seasons, one Subrosian call them Piratians) and the new Oocca and Yeti from Twilight Princess. (DjinnFighter, 18:26, 12 December 2006)

No, Fishmen - the little map-drawing fish from WW. Dark Tribe - while they may be evil, they are at least sentient, and clearly Maggie and the Moblin fall in love. The Dead Tribe (ALL poes, garoes, stalfos, redeads), while in many cases synthesized from other tribes, has a clear kingdom, and so counts as a race.

The Piratians would either be Dead Tribe, or merely dead humans. I don't know why you brought up Ordonian, but otherwise, yeah, Humans are seperate from Hylians. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.174.165 (talk) 19:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

The article talked about a race named Ordonian for a lot of time, but they deleted it, it's the reason why I talked about Ordonians. And, yes, we have to say Fishmen and not Mermen, sorry for that mistake, there too many people who say Mermen. But I continue to think the Dark tribe and the Dead tribe to be just monsters, even if they have feelings DjinnFighter

Well, in MM, the Dead Tribe definitely talks, and the Poe Collector in OoT seems to be one of them too. As for the Dark Tribe - The great Moblin and his lower moblins definitely talk in the Oracle games, and Bokoblins have at least developed sailing - I think they're smart enough (and extensive - there's more of these than any other race) to be called a race. While they may disappear in smoke when killed, and are part of the monsters, they also seem to clearly be a race.128.211.254.142 23:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The difference between the "Dead Tribe" (what's the "tribe" part?) and the rest is that the dead ones once were alive and each individual part of another race. All the culture they have is not something exclusive or new, but rather a continuation of what they were when they were alive. For instance, it would be stupid to call "Stalfos" a race, because they are merely individuals, spread across time and space, who for some reason have died and now are living dead. That makes them a state of being rather than a race. However, calling Ikanans a race is possible (though they could have been humans, hylians and pretty much everything else of that length) because they are found in one specific location and have at least culture in common. Garo can also be considered a race for that reason. Poes, Ghinis, Stalfos in general etc. not. As for evil races, I'd love to add them, because some of them are obviously sentient. However, there's too little about them as a race. Therefore, they can better be ignored for now (for their role as enemies, they are already on the TLOZ enemy page).DreamingLady 12:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"For instance, it would be stupid to call "Stalfos" a race, because they are merely individuals, spread across time and space, who for some reason have died and now are living dead."
Where does it say this in the games? The closest is that those who get lost in the lost woods become stalfos - but the same people say that Kokiri's who leave the forest die. The two urban legends serve to keep Kokiris in and people out - and they are presented as such. Except in Majora's Mask, where it is still iffy, the undead seem to have always been like this. Captain Keeta was always a skeleton, etc.

Dead Tribe - Poes and Garos never seemed to have been alive - in fact, Poes are said in the N64 games to be manifestations of hatred, and in TP, they are clearly not lost souls - they are demonic entities.

LttP talks alot about the Dark Tribe, as do the Oracle games. Wind Waker and Minish Cap let you interact with members, etc. That's more info than we have on a good bit of the other tribes. The same for the Dead Tribe - you can talk to ghinis in the Minish Cap and in the Oracle series.

I guess you could say it's just a state of being if you wish - but they seem to act as much like a tribe as any of the other tribes do - the Twili, Goron, Zora tribes, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.254.142 (talk) 22:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Hyrule map

I have an odd question that would relate to whether the races moved to a new Hyrule or what:

The Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker maps mesh nicely, and the Minish Cap map slightly fits. The odd thing is that if you tilt the Link to the Past map on its corner, it fits VERY well with the Wind Waker map. For example, the cave where you find the Ice Rod lays over Ice Ring Isle, and the LttP Lost Woods have overgrown Hyrule Castle, while Kakariko Village from OoT has been replaced by Eastern Temple and K Village from LttP has replaced Hyrule Market Town. Death Mountain is Death Mountain, Great Desert is Gerudo Valley, etc. Has anyone else noticed this?74.140.118.84 21:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"Toarunians"

Shouldn't we list the people of Toaru as a race. I mean, I know Toaru is not the established name of where they live, only tentative, or if if it's even right to call them "Toarunians" for the Gorons aren't called "Death Mountain-ians", but by all means, they are a race. For one, they have circular ears unlike the elf-like ears of must of the other LOZ races, including the Hylians, Sheikah and Rito. They live in seclusion far way from Hyrule, though thats not to say that they don't know of any place or people outside of where they live, seeing as how they attend the annual Hyrule Summit. They are governed by a leader, the mayor. They all eat crops from the same fields, drink the milk from the same cattle like a family even though they are probably not in the same family, though they have the same ancestors. And, like I mentioned before, they live on farming--growing crops and raising livestock--something no other LOZ race has been seen to do. Plus, they have different colored skin (remember the tan-skinned man from the video), a first of any Zelda race.

I suggest that this is not added to the article yet; at least, not until Twilight Princess is released. Someone is unlikely to be looking for them, yet, and they may just be ordinary humans, such as those it the Great Sea in The Wind Waker. Setokaiba^✌_≝ 20:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning?

Shouldn't this article contain a spoiler warning? I mean, someone who is only half-way through playing Ocarina of Time would not know that Link is a Hylian (and not, as would have been previously assumed, a Kokiri).

Definately. I'll be adding one right now. --Zooba 12:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit: I didn't realise there was already one. :/ --Zooba 12:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Words used in article...

I knowticed a few of the sectios use the words "you", and sound like something out of a humorous game review, or something like that. Abby724 00:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hyrule Adventure?

The last two races on this page are supposedly from an online game called "the Hyrule Adventure", yet I cannot find any information on this. Can anyone provide any information? 68.198.220.163 00:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC) Hyrule Adventure is a game mode on Four Sword Adventures - it is the main story mode, as opposed to the party-melee mode.

Link "Ordonian"?

I'm playing through Twilight Princess right now on my Wii, and it seems to me that Ordonian is to Hylian as Floridian is to American. I haven't run into anything in the game yet that makes it appear that Link (and maybe the other inhabitants of Ordon Village) are a different race. This comment is in references to Races_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Hylians --24.129.18.76 01:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. This is like saying the people of the Kakariko Village, from the Eldin Province, are their own race. Furthermore, so far, the game makes no reference to "Hylians," only to "humans." To me, this could explain the lack of emphasis on pointy ears. Kokiriboy99 23:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Zora Gills and Gender

This article states Zoras "have no visible gills", though in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess it appears the Zora have gills along the sides of their ribcages. This article also states that the Zora appear to be predominantly male, though in Twilight Princess they both appear and sound female (if you try speaking to them after freeing them from the ice, their gasping sounds feminine), all except for the prince. BeefJeaunt 23:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Clean up

A MAJOR clean-up is most definately in order. Even the first two paragraphs are cursed with repetition and the like. I'd started a bit of a clean-up, but it really needs to be a group effort in order to be effective. --Zooba 09:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

A Group effort

I do not belive it can be stated enough that this must be a GROUP effort. A major clean up is necessary. I belive we should set a start date, and work from there.

70.242.228.186 04:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I belive we should start NOW.

70.242.228.186 03:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Twili did not descend from the Gerudo...

I don't know who wrote that or how they came up with it, but it is highly unlikely and chronologically impossible for the Twili to be the descendants of the Gerudo, I think whoever wrote that either has a considerable lack of experience with the Zelda universe or read into things too much. Twilight Princess is set less than a century after Ocarina of Time, so there is no way that an ancient race like the Twili could have descended from the Gerudo, who albeit not on screen, should still exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.119.64.233 (talk) 08:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

I agree. The line "It is possible that the Twili are descended from, or are changed forms of, Gerudos, as they are abscent in Twilight princess." is speculation, unless someone can come up with a source. And if it does have a source, it needs to be explained a bit better, because being absent is certainly no justification for the claim. --Terpoma 06:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The Gerudo DID become the Twili. Midna almost outright states it after the battle for Zant. "The lust for power you had. Did you forget our ancestors lost our king to such lust?" Seeing as how Gannondorf is the only King with a lust for power in the entire series, I doubt they would include such a random line unless it was specifically refering to him. Anyways, my point is that there are certainly enough indications in the game that the Gerudo and the Twili are the same people.

Oh yeah, no other king ever did that. Very likely in thousands of years of TLOZ history. Don't forget the pre-OOT war. I doubt there wasn't a "king lusting for power" around at that time. Then there's Zelda's brother in TAOL, which indicates even the Hyrulean Royal Family can have had some lesser members. And what about the ancient tribes mentioned in FSA and MM? Who says Midna isn't refering to one of their kings? Considering the powerhungry history of the Twili, I'd be surprised if they never lost important members of their tribe to such things. Seriously, one game doesn't feature a certain race and suddenly half the fans think they are extinct. News flash, we don't see the entire world in the game. For all we know, the Gerudo live more to the west of the desert or in that gray area between the desert, snowpeak and Hyrule field. (Another thing, most of the Twili don't seem female to me.)DreamingLady 09:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also the fact that Midna herself, in princess form, looks like a Gerudo. She's got brown skin, red hair, and a pointed nose. Newsflash - a game is missing a race and a new race is introduced with ties to the area of the old race, similiar features, and a similar history and you don't think they're related? Please, that's just stupid. It's the exact same thing that happened in Wind Waker with the Kokiri/Koroks and Zora/Rito. It's not like there's not a prescedent for it in the games. Seriously:

• Twili Artifacts are found in the Gerudo desert.
• The Gerudo are gone and the Twili are introduced.
• The Twili's ancestors had a king that went mad with a lust for power.
• The Princess of the Twili LOOKS like a Gerudo.
• The Gerudo have a history of playing with black Magic (see Gannondorf and his moms), which is what the Twili's ancestors were banished for.
• Gannondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm

And this is all magical coincidence? Right. So were the Koroks being born from the Great Deku Tree too, I guess. I guess the Zora are hiding underwater in Wind Waker, too. Isn't that a little much for random coincidence? Couldn't you just admit that it's a POSSIBLE explanation?

Occam's Razor people. Once race goes missing and another one is suddenly introduced with the exact same history, location, and motivation as the old one and I guess it's all just totally RANDOM and unrelated? Please. What's a simpler answer? That all these coincidences match up and they're ment to be the same race or the Gerudo are hiding under the sand:

"The Twili are a race of beings who were banished to the Twilight Realm by the gods of Hyrule. The Twili were interlopers with great magic who went to the holy Sacred Realm in order to establish dominion over it, causing a war to break out in Hyrule."

"Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of Thieves, used it to enter this forbidden Sacred Realm! He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil..."

--68.156.227.64 20:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a point for this above in the Gerudo section, but in reply to the fellow that said the Twili don't seem female, well... lets be honest with ourselves, the Twili don't really pop into your face with any specific gender. For all we know they're genderless and a-sexual (even if Midna was decidedly female *looking*). And even if we were to disregard the fact that they don't really seem to have a defined gender... is it so hard to believe that a LOZ race could magically change into something else? After all, the Kokori became the Koroks, and the Zora may have become the Rito. If a humanoid race can magically turn into little... leaf people, then I don't see why the Gerudo couldn't become the Twili.

On another note though, Midna's true form, thinking back on it now, does resemble the Gerudo females in many ways. From the way she dresses, to the shape and size of her nose, and the color of her hair. A lot of little details do in fact point to the Gerudo becoming the Twili, but as of now it *is* still speculation, but as much so as the Zora becoming the Rito it may deserve a mention in the article. --156.34.73.117 13:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and on a side note Twilight Princess quite obviously takes place a lot longer than a century later. Examples (Twilight Princess spoilers ahead):

• The girl in the fishing hut refers to the fisherman from OOT as her ancestor (a term used for relatives from long ago, not a recent relative).

• Zelda and Link are young and don't know each other (meaning they're not the same incarnations from OOT, and can't be less than a century in because that would mean the originals were probably still alive if they have a lifespan similar to humans).

If you take OOT Link's age at the end of OOT (12, was it?), then add on less than a century, lets say... 80 years, then minus new Link's age of around 20 (rounded off, of course)... that would make the Link from OOT about 70 - 75. Which means there's a good chance the original was still alive. If the original Link was still alive (meaning this new Link wasn't a reincarnation, as I've always theorized)... and was instead a descendant, then surely the new Link would know of his family legacy.

• Same as above, except in this case involving Princess Ruto, she's clearly absent from the Zora tribe in TP, while another female queen rules. If it were less than a century she would probably still be in power.

• Then there's the fact that Hyrule's landscape couldn't change so drastically in less than 100 years. I mean some of the changes could be attributed to magic, some to expansion, but some of that stuff also comes down plates shifting and whatnot, and that's not the sort of thing that happens over night.

• The Gerudo Valley has become a barren wastleand, and the Gerudo are seemingly gone. That sort of thing doesn't happen over night either.

• A sign in the Hidden Village refers to it as Old Kakariko.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. A lot more than a century has passed, that's for sure. It's a Wind Waker situation, wasn't that at one point said to take place 100 years after OOT? Well given the amount of change in said game, that's a physical impossibility. I always looked at that as more of a mistranslation in the ancient texts. I mean a language doesn't die and become forgotten in 100 years. It's just like the many other mistakes the people of the Great Sea made, such as: frequently calling Ganondorf "Ganon", even though that's one of his names it's not his core name as of that point. Referring to the Triforce as the "tri-forks", calling Jabu-Jabu "Jabun". These are details that can't just be forgotten in less than 100 years, it's not possible. 1000 years? That's possible. 500? Sure, but not 100. --156.34.73.117 13:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The Koroks are probably not an evolution of the Kokiri. More likely, they have the ability to choose their looks (read: their creator has that ability). After all, if Navi's suggestion is true, then Kokiri have a really inconsistent structure. Also, the Deku Tree makes it sound like the Koroks/Kokiri had a choice in the matter.DreamingLady 14:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The Kokiri/Koroks are nature spirits - it says that in the game. They are not actually mortal creatures.

Ganon is the name of the Beast form of Ganondorf. Jabun is a different entity - they look completely different, and Jabu-Jabu never talked, nor did anything like what Jabun did. That's like saying that Valoo IS Volvagia, rather than a similar (even if a descendant) spirit.

Midna's skin is grey and black, NOT orange/brown. The Twili look NOTHING like the Gerudo, and they do not recognize Ganon as their ancient King. Rather they are said to have been imprisoned WITHOUT having found the Triforce (thus, before OoT, and probably the reason for building the Door of Time), and were a tribe of sorcerers - the Gerudo were a tribe of thieves/mercenaries that were celebrating Ganon's fall at the end of OoT, and were later found in Hyrule in FSA, and in other games like OoA and OoS.128.211.174.165 19:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• Twili Artifacts are found in the Gerudo desert. - And in the Lakebed Temple, and in the Goron Mines - if you are referring to the mirror, that is a HYLIAN artifact used to transport to the Twilight Realm - which existed before the Twili.
• The Gerudo are gone and the Twili are introduced. - And?
• The Twili's ancestors had a king that went mad with a lust for power. - As did many other kings and characters in the games. Are we to say that the minish Vaati is the king of the Twili? He at least would be in the correct timeframe, and he is a sorcerer attempting to take the Light Force and establish dominion over the realm?
• The Princess of the Twili LOOKS like a Gerudo. - The hell she does. She has grey and black skin, living hair, and her clothes are made from shadows. Plus, her nose is nowhere near as prominent. ZELDA looks more like a Gerudo. Scantily dressed != physiologically similar.
• The Gerudo have a history of playing with black Magic (see Gannondorf and his moms), which is what the Twili's ancestors were banished for. - No, certain characters do. As a race, they are weapon and martial-arts skilled. THEY HAVE AN ARCHERY RANGE.
• Gannondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm - Shortly before the game started - he immediately encouraged Zant to conquer the world of Light.

All in all, these are very fallacious claims.

Races in the manga

I believe that the races that were shown only in the various manga should be kept in that article. This article should be set in the proper canon, and unless there is a solid reason these races should stay here, I will be removing them from this article. PlatformerMastah 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Zooba 12:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Gorons in water

One unusual thing about the Gorons in Twilight Princess is that Gorons now seen to be able to survive underwater (though they are still unable to swim due to their larger weight). One possible explanation comes from a comment made by a Goron child practicing holding his breath in the Mountain Hot Spring's shallow waters, that strangely no matter how much time passes, he never feels the need to inhale. This may mean that Gorons do not need to breath in order to survive or more likely they need as much oxygen (this trait may be the result of living at high altitudes, as there is less oxygen; it may also help them survive in lava).

If you look closely at the Goron child it's talking about you'd notice that he is wearing a blue diving suit that appears to be of Zora origin. Making the child's comment foreshadowing on on the Zora Armor and not Goron's ability to breath under water, so I'm going to remove that paragraph. Bobby D. DS. 21:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, when you blow up the rock in Zoras domain, (the one you teleported there.) There is also a Goron who does not need to breathe. I think this is more of a hint at what happened to Gorons in Windwaker. They're living underwater as they are apparently not dependant on air.

Diving suit? All he wears is a pair of white shorts. Nothing Zora about it. 83.255.67.167 12:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I read when somebody wrote (was deleted) that the young Goron at the Death Mountain spring didn't need to come up for air because he was constantly being healed, so he did not need air. And the Goron at the Zora Domain said that it was a "cold spring" and that he did not need air because he was also being healed.

I don't know if it is true or false. But if it were Zora Armor, then the young goron would need a mask like Link's. Whenever Link goes underwater with the Zora Armor he has a gold mask over his mouth. So I don't know how the gorons could breathe underwater, but the info above sounds like the best idea.

It could just be that Gorons don't actually need to breathe, and water just killed Gorons in MM because it was treated like a bottomless pit, since they cannot swim - they could survive under there, they just couldn't get out, like a pit in most Zelda games.

The baby Goron appears to have an air hole in the rock-like feature at the top of his head, which is above the water allowing him to breathe.

No, it's a blue mask over Link's mouth, and in any case, the baby Goron having a snorkel still wouldn't explain the Goron METERS UNDER A NON-REJUVANATING SPRING. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.140.118.84 (talk) 08:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

"Water is disastrous for Goron heroes, for they sink like stones and are rendered motionless in the deep. Beware." Nothing about drowning, and all warning signs are about deep water only - nothing about water in general. There, the matter is resolved. Stop arguing about it.128.211.254.142 23:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Gods, Spirits and Fairies

They are numerous enough and pervasive enough throughout the series to have a section, aren't they? Entities like the Great Fairies, the Queen of Fairies, Ordonna, Faron, Lanayru, Nayru, Farore, Din, Jabun, Bongo Bongo, the Goddess of Time, Cyclos, Zephos, etc. Panserbjørn 23:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think a few more races should be added to the page. And the Fairies and Deities are among the races I think should be added. DreamingLady 25 December 2006

Zora Monarchs?

"Zora government is monarchial, with King Zora as the only known monarch to date."

This is sort of ambiguous. We know that there have been multiple King Zoras, because a sign in Ocarina of Time that reads,

"Zora's Fountain - Don't disturb Lord Jabu-Jabu! --King Zora XVI" Panserbjørn 13:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It's wrong anyway because there is a zora king in Labrynna in Oracle of Seasons. Admittedly, he looks just like the other king, but he lives in a completely different land. Chutup 11:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

changes

I was thinking about changing a few things on the page. But ofcourse only if others want it too ^^.

• A good article about Humans in TLOZ. Though they appear in the game, they don't get mentioned on the page. Ordonians are just Humans and not some other special race. It even appears the Wind Tribe are Humans, allthough I'm not entirely sure. And the Oracle games featured tons of Humans. So can I add them and fuse it with the part about the Ordonians?
• Terminians are said to be the alternate counterpart to Hylians, but isn't it more likely it's just the name for all who live in Termina? Just like Hyrulean is the name for all who live in Hyrule. If the Gorons in both worlds are called Gorons, it'd be strange if the Hylians would only be Hylians in one world.
• About the Sheikah in OOT, it seems likely Dampé and the Composer Brothers are Sheikah too. Impa introduced herself as "Impa of the Sheikahs", meaning there should still be more than one. I understand it's nothing more than speculation, but also looking at some stuff from TP and everything, it's just unlikely Impa (and Sheik) are truely the only Sheikah left.
• I want to add a few more races like Fairies, Dieties, Ikanans (they were a race/society before they died), Garo (same as the Ikanans), Oocca, Yeti, Merman and Moblins (they have shown intelligence and "culture" in three games by now). DreamingLady 21:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And I'd like to split the humanish(Gerudo, Hylians, Humans) so that they don't all are called Humans anymore. Since they are not. DreamingLady 11:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.thehylia.com/media/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=12

The art shows the Hyrulians with pointy ears, and the only other art I can find is of Zelda, Link, and Vaati, who all have pointy ears.

The Ikana seem to be the counterpart to the Hylia. The game does say they were really just the royalty of Termina, so technically, all Terminans are Ikana, unless they have regular ears. (I love how the racism in this game is based on ears, its so ridiculous).

Dampe! Yeah right. By the way, I thought the game said she WAS the last of the Shiekah. And why the composer brothers? They're just Poes.

I would say that the Moblins and friends would just be part of the Dark Tribe. Their nature as monsters means (they were released from the box, they perish in smoke as all of their kin) that they would not be their own race - besides, the only other real Dark Tribe members (communalized monsters) would be the other -blins, Wizzrobes, and the -nuts.

To be perfectly honest, the game calls all the humanoid races humans - including Zoras. Gorons seem to exempt themselves, though.

Oocca missing

The new chicken/human race, the Oocca, that predates the Hylians in Twilight Princess is nowhere to be found in this article. I'd put them in myself, but I'm too lazy for that.

I added them, but I don't think it's very good. If anyone wants to change it, please do so. DreamingLady 10:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

Last sentence of the Zora section:
"Since the figurine of one of the Rito suggest that he is a descendant of the Hylian Running Man."
What is that supposed to mean? I'm very confused. —Buddy13 11:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not pretty to read, huh? Anyway, I want to change the Zora-Rito evolution thing a little. No need to have it mentioned twice (only in the Rito article is good enough) and can be a lot shorter. Now it's mainly speculation. Everyone okay with that?

spoiler warning vandalized

pretty funny, too. Anyway, I'd fix it myself but I can't work out how to edit that part of the page. Chutup 10:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Goron Gender...

Grandma Goron from Majora's mask seems to prove that some Gorons are female...??? --205.155.225.1 23:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no Grandma Goron.DreamingLady 08:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Really? Then how come she had red lips, and a child? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC) First of all, it's the Goron Elder, that is referred to in the game as a he - it even has the traditional "Old Japanese guy" wheeze, if I remember correctly. There's a Goron that looks a lot like it in TP, and it is called a male - and you do realize that it takes both a woman AND a man to get a baby, right?

Also, everyone has reddish lips.74.140.118.84 09:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Where did the baby come from then? You say it takes woman and man, so that means there had to be a woman Goron!--71.141.127.145 23:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I was more trying to address the false idea that anything with a child must be female. I really don't know - I don't think that Gorons actually reproduce sexually.KrytenKoro 00:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

I'm going to go delete areas that have no sourcing and have heavy speculation. If you want to add pieces of what i've deleted back, find sources first. If you have sources, feel free, even obligated, to add the information back in. DurinsBane87 22:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Deity discussion

Because there's a lot that apparently is just "theory", rather than fact, this is why I have partially changed the article back to its former form, though I hope, after discussing what's fact and what's not, it can be improved. Because right now, it's just ugly.

"They are called alternatingly Gods or Goddesses, and according to dialogue from Tingle in Wind Waker, these Goddesses also represent Earth, Time, and Wind, in accordance with their respective parts in creating Hyrule." When are the big three called gods (ALTTP doesn't count if you're refering to that game) and when does Tingle say that? I haven't heared him say it once and I talked to him a lot. And I couldn't find a text dump to verify it. So if you can tell me when he says it...? ""Wind Gods", Zephos and Cyclos. Ocarina of Time mentions a "Sand Goddess", a naga-like being who watches over the desert." Yes, I know they are called Gods as well. However, they are of the level of Valoo and Jabu-Jabu instead of the Three. That, and the fact they have similar roles, makes the "spirits" and "gods" the same race: deities. In general, they are refered to by the names they are given on the page, but exceptions exist. If you know a better word. It's like with the "Humans". They are called humans for lack of a better word. The pointy-ears and rtound-ears both are called humans, only one is most often refered to as hylian and the other HAS NO NAME. The same goes for deities. If you have a better solution, please tell. "However, there's an obvious difference of nature symbol, such as an owl, a tree, or a sun" Just a minor question; who's the sun? It appears we both use our own theory to fill a gap, but actually, it is never stated if spirits can die normally. I reread the Deku Sprout's text and its knowledge could be explained in other ways. Same for the similarities in character between various spirit incarnations. However, considering many games feature either child-spirits or have different appearances for the same spirit, it also cannot be simply assumed they are immortal.

They are called gods often in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

Tingle says it while using the Tingle Tuner and entering the area of Outset Island - yes, it is not mainplot text, but it fits well with "Farore's Wind", and the roles given in the Creation story. Also, the fact that the two sages pray to the Gods (always plural) in their respective temples.

Whether or not they are of a different level (though for the Sand Goddess, I'm not sure how you can tell her level) is not important - you are making up a term that has a decidedly different meaning in the games - as far as my understanding of Wiki policies are, you should not be redefining game titles to your own desires.

Hylians are the pointy-eared race that were gifted with telepathy and magic-use - Humans are round-eared with no special gift, a type of final "mongrel" type of humanoid with no pedigree.

Sun: Twili's Sols. Specifically called patron deities or gods, representing "your Hylian suns".

They appear to be generally immortal - Valoo is said to have been in existence for centuries at least, and other spirits/gods such as the the Maku Tree and Jabu-Jabu clearly have lives at least that of a millenia.

My argument is this - they are shown to have at least centuries-long lifespans, and are never shown to die of old age. To the Hyrulians, at least, they would appear immortal AND NOTHING WE HAVE SEEN CONTRADICTS THIS.

As for Skull Kid - Play Majora's Mask again. The giants are clearly said to be of God class (they CREATED Termina, as the Golden Goddesses created Hyrule), and the Skull Kid was around to play with them the centuries ago they must have done it. As for the illusion thing - Play Ocarina of Time, or even Twilight Princess. He is shown to have no small power, and the Skull Masks DO propogate immediately after being given to the one Skull Kid. Whether this is lazy programming isn't important - in the game's scope it happens.128.211.174.165 18:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, about the Skull Kid, the text is fine now. However, I don't know why the Skull Kid would be of spirit-class and what's the source for the illusion part? DreamingLady 13:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The official zelda site says that termnia was created by Din, Nayru, and Farore by accident. DurinsBane87 15:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll check the Tingle quote soon. But I don't think you have answered my question: TLOZ often speaks of "gods", but is there one case (quote/semi-quote please) in which it was absolutely clear they were only refering to the three when using the term "gods"? As for the sand goddesses, I have no clue. Maybe I should put up an "possible deities" part up. About Hylains and Humans: Have you played TP or TMC or any more recent game? Whether or not they have pointy ears, they are all called humans! About the Twili's sols: I don't recall them being called living creature at all, let alone deities. A sun is not a deity.

Link is gay, Ganondorf is born a woman and Zelda has a thing for Navi......Nothing contradicts that either. And before you start about that being something completely different: "They appear to be generally immortal - Valoo is said to have been in existence for centuries at least, and other spirits/gods such as the the Maku Tree and Jabu-Jabu clearly have lives at least that of a millenia." I wonder where you got that info about Jabu-Jabu and a maku Tree from. You're talking about "appearing to be mortal", but that doesn't mean they are! That's making stuff up. Trees also can get centuries old, but they die eventually.

And no, the two of you both aren't right. First, the "official site" is as crappy as it possibly could be, missing more than one article and not always giving the right info. How about this one: "Young Medli was a princess of the Rito tribe on Dragon Roost Island in the Great Sea. She possessed both unquestioned bravery and the ability to fly." Princess?????? That's a new one! On the other hand, unlike with the three, there already was something before the Four Giants started working on the place. The text could very well mean they created Termina (the land, not the realm) as you create a garden. The materials already are there, but it's not a garden yet. About the Skull Kid, I think I know what you are talking about. No wait, I don't get TP's. He never creates any illusion. OOT is a possibility. However, it's simply a theory to explain the resemblance between the Skull Kids (not saying it isn't true), but still just a theory. DreamingLady 19:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Then you decidedly missed what Midna said. Look it up in the Quote FAQ if you want, but she calls them deities.

Except that Link kisses Zelda, or is proposed marriage to by females many times. Ganondorf is directly said to have been the male that is born every 100 years, and Zelda only met Navi a few times.

Oracle of Ages - they live at least 400 years, and are in perfect health in the present.

The only thing keeping a tree from living forever is eventually being killed by disease or some sort of predator (bugs, lumberjacks, etc). The WW Deku Tree must at least have been alive since OoT, since he met the Hero of Time at least once, and the Fairy Queen appears in about six games, seperated over millenia.

No, there was something there when the three created Hyrule. They came from a distant nebula, remember? It says they shaped Hyrule, not that they brought the universe into existence.

TP Skull Kid - Giant Disappearing wooden barriers have nothing to do with illusion?

No, OoT Skull Kid is not just to explain the resemblance - when you give one a Skull Mask, all three get it immediately. Also, they all act exactly the same. This seems to imply that at least two of them may possibly be illusions.128.211.254.142 23:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you stopped editing my posts in order to reply. I have a hard time figuring out what's new, what's yours and what's mine. 1.)Then you decidedly missed what Midna said. Look it up in the Quote FAQ if you want, but she calls them deities. I hope you aren't talking about this?: "Amazing... The power of the Sols has been transferred to your sword...The guardian deities of my world are on our side, too!" Because that doesn't indicate in any way the "guardian deities" and the sols are the same thing. If it is another quote, please tell me where to find it. Besides, this is more of a direct quote then you'll find for any of the other supposed spirits (besides WW - it directly called them spirits and gods).

2.)Except that Link kisses Zelda, or is proposed marriage to by females many times. Ganondorf is directly said to have been the male that is born every 100 years, and Zelda only met Navi a few times.

Oracle of Ages - they live at least 400 years, and are in perfect health in the present.

The only thing keeping a tree from living forever is eventually being killed by disease or some sort of predator (bugs, lumberjacks, etc). The WW Deku Tree must at least have been alive since OoT, since he met the Hero of Time at least once, and the Fairy Queen appears in about six games, seperated over millenia.

SHE kisses him ONCE in the entire series! That was ONE Link. Also, if a woman proposes to a guy, that doesn't say anything about the guy, now does it? I could argue the quote about Ganon, but I don't feel like it. You get that one for free. :) And about Navi and Zelda: Link and Zelda met the same number of times as Navi and Zelda, but that doesn't stop people (you?) from saying there's something going on between the two characters.
A millenium = 1000 years, not 400. That's not even half a millenium!
And no, we don't know if the GDT of TWW met "the Hero of Time". For all we know, it's an entirely different Link he's talking about and the Hero of Time is a title associated with Link, because "the same kid" keeps popping up in TLOZ's history. Also, his quotes never specifically state he met the Hero of Time himself. Also, the Fairy Queen appears to be a different person every time if you ask me (like King Zora), not to mention she is a Fairy and not a Deity, even if the Fairies would be a Deity sub-race.

3.)No, there was something there when the three created Hyrule. They came from a distant nebula, remember? It says they shaped Hyrule, not that they brought the universe into existence. I'll respond on the nebula later, because the site I need to verify part of what I want to say is true, is currently down.

Play the Oracle games. Zelda kisses Link at least twice (not the same one, but...), and he clearly enjoys it.

Well, considering that the creators frequently hint at romance between Link and Zelda, as well as Link being attracted to Midna, not rebuffing either Malon's or Ruto's advances, and being happy when kissed by Cremia in MM.128.211.176.181 18:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Deku Tree (not "great", by the way), says that Link looks like the Hero of Time. Not that he looks like A hero, but THE hero. This implies that he has met Link at least once. Besides, the WW Deku Tree is supposed to be the sprout from OoT.

Fairy Queen being different: how so? Sure, she grows from the child form in Wind Waker into the full queen form of LttP, OoA, LA, and so on, but it never implies that there is a lineage - No fairies so far have had ANY children.

Millenia: I was talking about the Fairy Queen, not the Maku Tree, but in any case, the Light Spirits of TP are supposed to have sealed the Twili away in the Twilight Realm, and the Twili are supposed to have attempted their conquering long before Ganondorf finally found the Triforce.

Let's put it this way - you find me any instance in mythology (especially in Japanese mythology), where a spirit dies of old age. There are many instances of them growing bodily and in power (Kyuubi, for example - the Keaton of MM), but I have never heard of a spirit being mortal. That's kind of part of the reason they are called spirits - they are the eternal essence of something (like how the Great Deku Tree is the spirit of the forest, or Jabu-Jabu is the spirit of water).

If you can't find it in a manual scan or text dump, which are always available at gamefaqs or fansites, then it's not canon enough to dispute with a manual scan or text dump, which the nebula quote IS from.

TP Skull Kid - Giant Disappearing wooden barriers have nothing to do with illusion?

Skull Kid: No. Otherwise, you could get past them. But at least now I understand what SK powers you are talking about.
So do the "not-important" members of all races. Or are all Ooccoo simply illusions as well, except two or three.DreamingLady 13:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol.

It's like the sun of your world, Link. The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world... It is pure power. Ah! As long as you have this... Would you take this Sol to the Twili at the entrance of this world? Please, Link!" And how is the Sols power being part of Link's sword NOT being on his side? The sols are not the Twilight version of the Triforce - they are the SOURCE of the power, not a tool for its use.

No, OoT Skull Kid is not just to explain the resemblance - when you give one a Skull Mask, all three get it immediately. Also, they all act exactly the same. This seems to imply that at least two of them may possibly be illusions.

Ooccoo don't change appearance as a group. The Skull Kids did.

Illusion: ?? Illusions are solid barriers in many Zelda games. In both Oracle games, there was an illusional barrier that you absolutely couldn't get through without dispelling it. I think you're confusing "illusion" with "mirage". Especially in fantasy, illusions can be VERY physical.

"Once, long ago, this land of Hyrule was

turned into a world of shadows by Ganon, who sought to obtain the power of the gods for his own evil ends." "The Triforce of Wisdom is none other than the sacred power of the gods that we have kept from Ganon's clutches for so many long years." "Gods of the Triforce!"

Also, just as a side not - the Earth Temple is supposed to be devoted to the Earth God, and the Wind Temple to the Wind God - but the gods worshipped within are described as the same ones who made the Triforce. This should be another hint that Din is the Earth God, Farore the Wind, and Nayru the Time.

I made a request. I find this very annoying, and quite rude you continue to edit my posts as a way or replying. I'm going to respond this time, but if you don't change your reply method, I'm not going to bother to read your next post.
Sols -> They are said to be sources of power, never living entities at all. They are objects, no deities. Possibly items from deities, but not deities. The sun is not a deity either, and that too is a source of life in our world (Hyrule). Your interpretation is very personal, and I'm quite sure no one else has interpreted it like that.
Really, if I look at Zelda and Link, I just don't see a relation. They are bound by destiny, but I really see no hints of a relation, except for one or two kisses, but hey, a lot of others are a lot more obvious. Also, have we ever seen him getting kissed by a nice guy? Nope, and until then, even Link might not be sure. ^^
Um, no. There really is no reason to assume that's that deku sprout and TWW DT are the same individual. Also, considering every "Hero" is A Link, that means every Link is The Hero!. And in that sense, the HoT is possibly just a way to call the hero in general, even though it's different individual each time.
Have I said Fairies get kids? No. I just said there's no reason to assume it's the same one each time. King Zora from OOA is likely not related to King Zora from OOT or King Zora from TP either. Who says the Fairies don't have multiple leaders as well, or that Fairies can exist and de-exist for whatever reason.
Hey, we've reached a funny point! We're basically saying the same thing here, but have different points of view. And yes, I can prove my point: the Phoenix. You might remember I think Spirits reincarnate, hench are immortal but renew their bodies once in awhile. That's how I explain child-spirits and different appearances of clearly the same being.
I don't take the ALTTP booklet as canon. Zeldalegends (which is currently down) has a good article about it. I just don't remember what the "official" booklet said and what the proper translation said. The nebula, if I recall correctly, was from the bad translation.
So? They are the same in every other way. The mask, the SKs are in the Lost Woods! I bet they could rip-off some Stalfos' head (Fado's quote) anytime and use it as a mask, just like their "cool friend". However, I can see some logic in your explanation. I'd make a new topic if I were you, and see how people feel about it (if they react).
Illusion. And IF you mean something else with it, than say so! Because if you'd say animals can talk simply because they can in quite a few fantasy stories, it would also need to be said you are talking about a FANTASY UNIVERSE!.

Okay, you made your point (although it would be appreciated where the quotes are from(game and moment).DreamingLady 19:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see the request until this time. I reorganized my posts to make it less annoying to you. I had done it that way because you had brought up a lot of questions, and I thought it would be easier if I addressed each one seperately. I just saw your request, so I capitulated.

If "The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world... It is pure power", then how can they have been made by another deity? Even the Triforce is not pure power - it is a fragment of the Goddesses power. Oh well. It seemed obvious to me, but I can't convince you. Remove the sun bit if you wish.

Well, the official manga show Link and Zelda definitely having a relationship. Same as in TMC and Wind Waker(at least heavily implied), and in both Four Swords games she knows him well before the game. In the Oracle games she kisses him, they're both happy, etc.
Why are we still discussing this, though?

Spirit Reincarnation - for the only "example" I can think of - the Deku Tree Sprout. Except that it refers to the old Deku Tree as a seperate being, and calls itself the Sprout, not the reincarnation.

Deku Tree - Hero of Time

Hi there! I'm the Deku Tree sprout! Because you and Saria broke the curse on the Forest Temple, I can grow and flourish! Thanks a lot! Hey, have you seen your old friends? None of them recognized you with your grown-up body, did they? That's because the Kokiri never grow up! Even after seven years, they're still kids! You must be wondering why only you have grown up! Well, as you might have already guessed, you are not a Kokiri! You are actually a Hylian! I am happy to finally reveal this secret to you! (cut scene) Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest. The mother was gravely injured... Her only choice was to entrust the child to the Deku Tree, the guardian spirit of the forest. The Deku Tree could sense that this was a child of destiny, whose fate would affect the entire world, so he took him into the forest. After the mother passed away, the baby was raised as a Kokiri. And now, finally, the day of destiny has come! (end cut scene) You are a Hylian, and were always bound to leave this forest. And now... You have learned your own destiny... So you know what you must do... That's right... You must save the land of Hyrule! Now, Link, break the curses on all of the Temples, and return peace to Hyrule!!

I must apologize. I was in error. I saw your clothing, and suddenly I felt a longing for an age gone by... That longing caused the ancient tongue to pass my lips.

However, since his roots run deep into the earth, he cannot move. As a result, he is often afflicted by parasitic enemies...

I guess I can't find anything more than this, and even this is only implying a connection. You win.

"And in that sense, the HoT is possibly just a way to call the hero in general, even though it's different individual each time." According to the games, just a hero chosen by the Master Sword.

" Have I said Fairies get kids? No. I just said there's no reason to assume it's the same one each time. King Zora from OOA is likely not related to King Zora from OOT or King Zora from TP either. Who says the Fairies don't have multiple leaders as well, or that Fairies can exist and de-exist for whatever reason." The games do. She calls herself THE Fairy Queen. As for the King Zoras - by OoT they already have 14 King Zoras.

"I honestly can't figure out what you are responding to with the Phoenix thing. Just to point out though - It did not reincarnate, and it wasn't a spirit. According to the legend, it burned away it's age, disease, and general dirtiness.

Nebula

"The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm." I grant you that they may have been the full creator gods in Hyrule - it's an iffy legend either way. I'm just saying that the four giants created Termina as the Goddesses created Hyrule. The Four Giants even have the same qualities as the goddesses+1: Wisdom, Power, Courage, and Kindness

Quotes

The quotes are from Wind Waker.

Illusion

I should think the fact that we are discussing Zelda should indicate that the LoZ definition of illusion applies. And in that case, illusions can be VERY physical barriers. It's just their core unreality that makes them illusions.

Stalfos Head

Except that the Stalfos: 1) don't appear in the woods, and 2) don't look anything like the Skull Mask. In any case, the fact that they all change at the same time, and only one appears in later games (with relatively great power, especially in illusion), seems to indicate that this is not an actual race. If it's not illusion, then that means he has control over teleportation and obliterating matter - even more impressive.128.211.254.142 18:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Telma

I'm not necessarily disputing it, as it would make sense, but how exactly does Telma resemble a Gerudo?

Red hair, large nose, Gerudo skin color, fierce personality, it's all there. The only thing that goes against this is her ears being pointy, but the new TP Ganondorf also had pointy ears. So, it is safe to say she was at least inspired by the Gerudo, if she isn't one.

TWW Ganondorf already had pointy ears. And the large nose was also already dropped in TWW. Anyway, I think Telma is at least inspired by the Gerudo....but whether she is one? I don't know, she still appears more Hylian to me.DreamingLady 03:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when are deities considered a race?

What, are the three goddesses a race now? The deity section should be removed from this article.Tj terrorible1 16:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Since when are Shiekah considered a race? There's been one in the entire series. But you're right, the 50-ish spirits and deities presented in the games are two few in number for them to be considered a race. I guess they must be squirrels or something.128.211.254.142 06:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No, the three goddesses alone aren't considered a race. However, there are so many creatures seen and mentioned in the series, that are either called gods, spirits of deities (see the list, please), that they can be considered a race.DreamingLady 11:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Animal Tribe, Dark Tribe, Fishmen still missing, Ikana,Monkey, and Dead Tribe as well

Link's Awakening clearly describes the Animals as a cohesive Tribe, and further games treat them with the same amount of importance as the others. In Twilight Princess, the animals are merely normal animals, but most games present them as something like the once-fish Zoras and so on.

The Dark Tribe, first named in Link to the Past, seems to consist of the sentient monsters: - blins, wizzrobes, and -nuts. The -blins especially have developed as much technology and sentience as most Hylians - they're just evil.

The Fishmen consist of the 49! map-fish in Wind Waker, each of which is said to be a different character, and they all talk to Link. That rivals the total for any other race in one game. If any other race is on here, they should be.

The Monkey Tribe also appears in several games: MM, OoA, and TP. It makes a small appearance in LA, but isn't really cohesive. However, in the other three, they are both cultured and intelligent enough to speak english (barring the TP one - but they still understand enough to help before and during the Forest Temple).

The Ikana would just be the Termina version of Hylians.

The Dead Tribe would be the undead: Stalfos, Redead, Gibdo, Poes, Garos and so on. In MM, they are shown to be sentient, and in TP, the Poes are not deceased Hylians - they are hellish beings. Furthermore, the Poe Keeper from TP and MM seems to not be merely deceased, and is definitely both powerful and sentient. In Oracle and TMC, members of the dead tribe can talk. In TMC, there are more natural Dead-ers : the two spookters and Gina the Ghini.

I think the first 4 should DEFINITELY be put in. I do not have enough time right now, nor do I have the requisite information (my LA game was borrowed and lost), so I am laying the request on your hands.

The last 2 could be put up, as information exists, but it seems they are both slightly controversial.128.211.254.142 04:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Zelda Deities

Should we just make this its own page? We could have it with their shrine, their element, patronized race, so on.128.211.254.142 04:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The damage I caused needs reverting.. I don't know how to do it

Can someone help me? I believe I caused a big mess with the Hylians. I was trying to note that humans and hylians can be interchangable and in many games it's unknown if the human-like race refers to themselves as human or hylian. I wish I knew how to revert but I'm too new to editting Wikipedia. --74.194.118.12 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Sheikah and Sheik

Should Sheik be mentioned in the Sheikah section? He did claim to be the last of the surviving Sheikah. Though he did turn out to be Princess Zelda...

Almost everything he said was a lie, though.74.140.118.84 09:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

16:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Like...what? "This is the legend of the temples passed down by my people, the Sheikah. I am Sheik. Survivor of the Sheikahs..." Okay it was just that in the game. I was remembering stuff from the manga, sorry.128.211.254.142 03:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Page too big!

This page is way too big! Some of these races need moving to their own sub pages! JayKeaton 02:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh heh. Like the Twili?

The Twili get their own article? But they only appeared once... Splitting off Hylians or Gorons would make more sense. And in addition, about half the Twili article is original research and should be merged back here. Gurko 11:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Oocca

This is in the article under Oocca: "As implied by Shad in Twilight Princess, the Oocca created the Hylians and once had good relations with the Hylian Royal Family." If I remember right, the line began with the phrase "It is said that..." I think this counts as an in-game rumor. Does this line convey that well? Bucky 19:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be a rumor, except that all the things Shad claimed pretty much ended up being true - those in the know (Impaz, for example) even said that the Oocca gave the dominion rod to the royal family to allow communication:

"Hey! That rod... Is that the Dominion Rod? Ahh... Could it really be? Are you the messenger to the heavens?! Among the legends of my clan, there is a story from the time when the Oocca still maintained contact with the royal family. Yes, it said that a mysterious rod was handed down from the people of the sky, and it was called the Dominion Rod... The rod was only to be carried by the messenger to the heavens when the royal family needed to communicate with the Oocca. From generation to generation, my ancestors have guarded the book that, by royal decree, was to be given to the messenger to the heavens." So at least half of Shad's claim was true, and the Oocca do seem advanced enough to have built a Sky City more advanced (even on the inside) than most anything Hylians could have built. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.178.122 (talk) 14:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

I ask because past games have always said that Hylians were created directly by the gods, rather than the gods contracting out to one of their creations. I can see them building the city and giving the Royal Family the rod, because even without hands, their ancestors could've been able to do all that, what with the powers that they had even at the time the game took place; I'm just having issues with the concept of them being able to create from nothing. Besides, the guy was right about a lot of things, but he almost seemed to be worshipping the Oocca, which would lead to him assigning powers to them they didn't actually have. Does that sound logical? Bucky 21:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the game does portray him as knowing what he is talking about, and he was right with everything else he said. And to be fair, the other games didn't so much say that the Hylians were made directly by the Gods - it says that Farore created all life, and then that the Hylians were blessed by the Goddesses. Since the Goddesses seem to still be around, they could easily have let one of the earlier races build the Hylians, and then they came around and blessed them.128.211.179.231 22:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have mental issues, so I'll trust your memory. Out of curiosity, would this mean that the Oocca sculpted the Hylians from clay, and then Farore blessed them by breathing life into them? You could maybe talk me into that; I was just thrown by the claim that they created the Hylians, but if they just provided blueprints, I can rationalize that. Bucky 21:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Mkay, noone knows except the people in japan who created it!Thecolourrose Except that they say it in the game, don't they? The question is over whether or not Shad's word is reliable - I say that he's never been disproven, and all of the other claims panned out, ao as ridiculous as it is, the new outlook is that the Oocca created the Hylia.

Provided blueprints. That's my rationalization, and I'm sticking to it. Bucky 07:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

the zelda pic in the hylian section.

Um, is that souced? If so...um, we kinda need one for the Zelda article...Please??? Oh, Please!!!! Thecolourrose

Deku Tree

when is it ever said that the deku tree created the kokori?

It was said by the Kokiri girl next to the pool next to the shop. She said that he was their guardian spirit, and that he gave life to all Kokiri. I count it as the same thing as the Oocca in Twilight Princess. That discusion is in the Oocca section just above this discusion. Bucky 07:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

...Thecolourrose

Ideas for removing the rampant in-universe style of article

According to the guidelines, the chief reason in-universe style is bad is because it commonly draws invalid inferences - taking one observation, and expanding it to "all instances". Some instances of that in this article would be the "Kokiri always wear green tunics", and "Goron's always use the term "brother" to refer to others."

Ways we could fix this would be "In The Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time, members of the Kokiri Tribe usually wear green tunics." or something to that effect - stating that it was an observation, as opposed to the "all-encompassing" truths that the article claims.

Now, for some things, we don't need to actually admit doubt. If it's NOT an observation - if the games, the official sites, the manuals, or even possibly the official guides (though that's a bit iffy) claim something is always true about a race - for example, what the site says about Gorons, or what the The Minish Cap says in its figurines and game text about the Minish, would be acceptable.

If a figurine in the game said "Gorons are always x", we could put that. However, we also have to remember that anything not presented as incontrovertible truth in the games needs to be admitted as such. If Ganondorf says something, we can say he said it, we can even say that the evidence supports him - but we must admit that it is his opinion, not the Truth, with a capital T.

So basically - anything from the guides or sites needs to be either easily verifiable (ie, a reader could type in the claim on google and quickly find an official source for it), referenced (link provided to the relevant site), noted (excerpt of game text provided at bottom of article, preferably from game script or text dump file - these are easily found at gamefaqs), or admitted to be observations from the games. Anything that you can't notarize should have a "In the Potato of Destiny, Gerudo commonly wore mime costumes." type of wording.

These are some ideas that I think would really help the article, and obviously the job would be too much for any one editor, so I am asking the community to help out. Thanks!KrytenKoro 01:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This in fact admits that it is pure inference -
"From the few facts that have been established about the Sheikah in the games and game manuals as well as pictures, we can assume that the Sheikah had red eyes, as Impa has red eyes in the Ocarina of Time and so does Zelda in her Sheikah guise."
It is almost admitting the fault in the logic. It would work better by saying something along the lines of
"Both known Shiekah, Impa and Impaz, as well as Zelda (in her Shiek disguise) have red eyes."KrytenKoro 06:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Excellent suggestions. I'll see what I can do to help. Gurko 09:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Various fact tags

I think all of those were actually sourced at one time, thanks to Gurko, but were removed to trim the page. To replace them, just look for an old version of the page, and paste the sourcing.KrytenKoro 18:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Garo

The Garo should be added here, whether under Humanoids or their own race, they should be. Although they only appear in one game as an army of ninja, according to that professor guy in Ikana Town, they are invaders from another nation. If you look at their legs, they are very chicken-like, and their eyes shine entirely blue instead of having pupils. They ARE a race, just like the Gerudo and Gorons and Hylains and Zoras are, not just a few enemies. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 7:28 (Eastern Standard Time); 10 June 2007.

They are part of the tribe of the dead. I supported putting the dead tribe in, but arguments against it have been posted above.KrytenKoro 23:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup Tags

WOW. This article contained enough cleanup tags to completely fill the screen. I replaced it with {{cleanup-rewrite}}.

The tags that were present:

{{tone}} ("The tone or style of this article or section may not be appropriate for Wikipedia.")

{{Copyedit|date=June 2007}} ("This article or section needs copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone and/or spelling." - since June 2007)

{{trim}} ("Please help improve this article by trimming this article or section, which has grown too large or lost focus.")

{{Refimprove|date=June 2007}} ("This article needs additional references or sources for verification." - since June 2007)

{{vg-in-universe|date=June 2007}} ("This article or section on a video game-related subject describes an aspect of the game in a primarily in-universe style and needs cleanup." - since June 2007)

Please, someone...take a look at this.

=David^(talk)_(contribs) 02:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the only way a complete re-write will occur is if several (ie. ten or more) users band together to edit the article simultaneously (maybe take each section separately, re-writing it in Word, and then sharing the new sections for peer review on this talk page, and once that has been done editing the sections back into the article and formatting them properly). Subsequently that means we need a formulaic, methodical approach to cleaning up the article, perhaps distributing the sections between users, setting up a rough style-guide to follow, and just tackling the article in one huge swoop. Currently the article's too big to take menial stabs at here and there, and it's the same problem with the Recurring weapons and items from The Legend of Zelda series and Enemies in The Legend of Zelda series wiki pages. Is there any way to block editing except for a select handful of IPs, or just putting some kind of maintenance tag on the page asking people to not edit the article until one of the cleaner-uppers removes it? These are just suggestions, anyways, but this article has been tagged for so long it really needs to be sorted out. --Zooba 09:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll sign up to help with that. How many people are we going to try to get going on this, and when will we start? I will be available for the next two weeks, but then I'm going to be interviewing for jobs, so I might not - who are we kidding, I'm f'ing addicted to wikipedia. I'm free whenever.KrytenKoro 11:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

We need around five or six people for the job, I would think, at the very least. It may sound like quite a lot for just one article, but when you get groups any smaller (us two, for example), the logistics of editing half the article each sound pretty ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, we need to start right away - as soon as possible. I think, actually - although this may be far too fantastical to set up - that a kind of group of people (a sort of "Task Force", perhaps) doing such a function would serve good purpose within the WP:VG sphere, as many lists of the same kind need exactly the same clean-up. Items in the Metroid series, for example, is just as bad. --Zooba 19:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll gladly work on or rewrite the Goron, Kokiri, Zora, and Skull Kid sections. Got lots of time on my hands as well as a fair amount of knowledge and resources concerning those particular races. Soooooo... when do we start?(Sausagerooster 07:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

So... I gather it'll just be us three then. Well, I guess to avoid simultaneous editing (whereby whoever finishes first has just their edit go through), we can each take a day or part of a day (ie. I would edit Saturday morning, and someone else would edit Saturday night). In terms of splitting up the article, I don't mind if you, Sausagerooster, edit the Goron, Kokiri, Zora and Skull Kid sections. I don't mind whatever sections I do, but my help would be limited in terms of a lack of knowledge concerning the actual games themselves. In that respect I'd be most useful just changing the tone, formatting and grammar sections, and adding bucket-loads of "citation needed" tags... heh. Anyhoo, Kryten Koro, when, and what, do you want to edit? --Zooba 11:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This is the best source for Zelda citations - this is actually the guy who is being quoted over and over on this page. You might also do a search for real-world info on the races.

I can happily do the minor races (Fishmen, Spirits, Koroks, etc.) - the stuff that other people don't really feel like doing. I can also work afternoons.KrytenKoro 20:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks for the citation page. That'll be handy. (Sashaphanes 05:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

Thanks for the link. I'll edit the Deities, Deku and Fairies sections (and maybe the Humanoid section) tomorrow morning. --Zooba 09:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, one last thing has come to mind. What about References? Do we just quote the text in the text-dumps we're using? Or should we use {{cite web}} references? In case of the latter, I think it'd be best if we standardised the references we used, so each reference to the Ocarina of Time text-dump, for example, is the same. --Zooba 12:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've just been doing a ref - person who says the quote - quote - end ref reference format. Don't know if that's best, but it's what I've been doing. Also, I mentioned above in the "clean up" discussion that - "The sections need to be a bit more homogenized, i.e., each section should contain 1) society, which would contain tidbits on the traditions, politics, religion, history, language, economics, and culture of the given race (not necessarily ALL of those; only those that are important in the games); 2) appearance/biology, giving an overview of -- well DUH -- appearance/biology along with special abilities of the race (this could also include the "Types of Minish" subsection); and finally, 3) notable members of the race, containing a list of just that. Also, discrepancies across games such as "Gorons in The Wind Waker" do not warrant their own subsections (as noted by DreamingLady)." This is at least what I intend to do with the sections I work on. I feel like the whole page would feel a bit more organized if there was a universal format like that. I've just fixed up the first half of the Goron article. I'm going to edit the Biology section later today and probably integrate the Gender section into that. (Sashaphanes 22:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

I would probably add the game title (in italics) before the person who says it and then the quote (which should not be in italics (?) I suppose). Not to criticize, but I think some more bits of the section need references, although it's hard to draw the line where. If we take the section:

"At leisure, Gorons delight in a variety of both relaxing and stimulating activities. In Ocarina of Time, Gorons appear to enjoy dancing and rolling[7]. They are fond of drums, as seen in Majora's Mask. In Twilight Princess, Gorons enjoy bathing in hot springs and sumo wrestling (though sumo’s popularity seems to wane among the younger generations)[8]."

The first sentence should probably have a reference, because otherwise it can be considered OR. Another example is:

"Gorons take on a wide range of occupations; some are adept craftsmen, blacksmiths, or sculptors."

The first part ("Gorons...occupations") probably needs a reference. Otherwise, you'll probably need to write "Gorons are shown as craftsmen (game name), blacksmiths (game name), or sculptors (game name). However, in The Wind Waker, three Gorons are also shown as merchants." Otherwise, great work! --09:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent points, I'll fix that up sometime here in the near future. (Sashaphanes 04:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

The Legend of Zelda, Old Man: "DODONGO DISLIKES SMOKE."

That's the general form, right? Anyway - should we have a section on their apparent religion, since most tribes have a guardian deity, and shrines or temples? We should at least mention it somewhere.KrytenKoro 16:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, religion just falls under "society". (Sashaphanes 04:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

By the way (just something to consider), with all the sections I'll be editing/update/rewriting, it is my intention before plunging into society-biology-notable members to just provide a tidbit or two, if there is one, on the origins of the race's name as well as what games the race appears in. See the Goron article for an example. I've sort of revamped the Goron Biology section; however, it's still quite long and I can't, for the life of me, find that damn quote from Twilight Princess where Gorons are described as "living rocks". If someone could find that and plug it in at some point, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to keep scouring text dumps for it. (Sashaphanes 07:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

Especially with the newer games, which are harder on text dumps, the quote Faqs at GAmefaqs are very helpful - they are not guaranteed to be comprehensive, since there is always the possibility that you have to talk to the guy 20 times to get him to say something different, but they tell you who is talking, and organize it by chronological point in the game.

For living rocks, however - I thought that was from OoT or MM, where they were describing how Gorons eventually become mountains. If not, it could also be in the Zelda encyclopedia at zelda.com, or in the official player's guides (which I can provide if you can't find another source).

When I mentioned religion, I was actually thinking of possibly making an infobox. I don't know - but first and foremost, to keep this page from being deleted, we need some kind of "conception" section at the top, hopefully explaining why Shigeru wanted so many different kinds of races, what his influences were, etc. If we can get that, the rest of this is just copyediting - without it, this can be deleted at nearly any time. Basis of a race should also be the first part of each section - what they are based on, how that particular race came to be designed, etc. After that, we can discuss their part in the mythos.KrytenKoro 16:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Humanoid Section?

There does not need to be a "Humanoid" section. Period. There are pictures and biology sections perfectly capable of communicating to a reader whether a race is humanoid or not. Besides, if there is going to be a "Humanoid" section (which, again, is inane), Gorons technically fall under it. According to the Wikipedia article on humanoids, a humanoid is "usually a fictional humanoid species has the same basic body outline as a human, being bipedal with hands which include fingers and opposable thumbs, but differs in details such as number of digits, coloring, ear form, presence of hair, average height and weight, size of nose, form of skin, "extras" such as horns, plates, claws, tails or multiple appendages, limb structure (such as having digitigrade legs) and taxonomic lineage (being descended from reptiles, fish, rodents, marsupials, or a phylum not evolved on Earth, perhaps, instead of primates)". Gorons satisfy this categorization quite well, not to mention Zoras as well. (Sausagerooster 08:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

Except that the "humanoids" in the game are commonly called humans, while Gorons are always separate from "humans". That explanation should be there - I'm pretty sure the human section starts out with it.KrytenKoro 03:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright. Then why does that warrant a special section called "humanoids" rather than "humans"? (Sausagerooster 02:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

Because others still like to say that "humans" refers specifically to the non-Hylian Hyrulians (those with regular ears, and such). So, that was the best compromise at the time.KrytenKoro 22:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No need for compromise. The section doesn't need to exist. (Sashaphanes 05:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

Well, then we're left without a turn for "regular" humans, and the other races are still very definitively called humans - at the very least, part of the same species, as opposed to the differing species' of the other tribes. Since "human" is the only word used for the base stock, but also the total species name, they're no real way to do it otherwise, without having to add a lengthy paragraph explaining why we decided to confuse the readers.KrytenKoro 13:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I can understand that. In that case, I feel that the section should be entitled "Humans", under which there should be an tiny introductory bit that simply explains that the word has a twofold meaning in the Zelda games: it can refer either generally to a group of races or more specifically to a single race. That doesn't seem terribly confusing, and given that the word "humanoid" (at least to my recollection) is never used in the games, I think the distinction should be made by simply identifying the dual meaning of "human". (Sashaphanes 20:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

I think I've heard it at least once, but it's not commonly used, so yeah, good idea.KrytenKoro 16:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe it should have anything at all. There is enough evidence to show that they are quite clearly different races as opposed to seperate groups of humans. Also, it now says Humans with another section entitled Humans underneath which I find to be rather strange. I can understand having normal humans and Hylians together though. .:Alex:. 20:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Candidates for splits

The Zora and Goron sections seem like ver good canditates for splits. They both take up the most room on this page, both have the most subsections and they both make the most and most important appearences as a race in the modern Zelda games. It would also free up a lot of space on the page making it much easier to read and much easier to edit. JayKeaton 19:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

They're also a lot of OR and overly-long wording - they can be simplified while still being comprehensive.KrytenKoro 20:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's amass notes here to help do this correctly

Please delete to pick only the ones that are most helpful, but we need to cite as much as possible.

Also, Jabu-Jabu is called a god as well, so we may have to reword that entire section to combine god and deity, because it's looking like the seperation is completely fan-based.

And the Hylian-god thing is in OoT with "They say we Hylians have big ears in order to hear the voices of the gods...but I've never heard them!"

Gorons

From Zelda Universe (zelda.com):

Goron City

Located near the top of Death Mountain, Goron City is home to thousands of hard-working Gorons. The Goron leader, Darunia, lives and works within the city walls. Ocarina of Time

Goron Dungeon

The Goron Dungeon is one of the four mystical dungeons which Link explored while inside Termina's Moon. Majora's Mask

Goron Elder

The term "elder" is not used lightly in Goron culture. Gorons live to be much older than Hylians, so it takes quite a while for a Goron to earn this respected title. Majora's Mask

Goron Graveyard

Like most Terminans, the Gorons believed in burying their dead. The Goron Graveyard is reserved for the most honored Goron heroes, including the legendarily brave Goron named Darmani. Majora's Mask

Goron Lullaby

During his Terminan quest, Link used this soothing melody to put the DaiGoron to sleep. According to ancient scrolls, the Lullaby Intro was played by pressing A, Right, Left, A, Right, Left. The complete Goron Lullaby was played by pressing A, Right, Left, A, Right, Left, Right, A. Majora's Mask

Goron Mask

In Hyrule, the Goron Mask is considered little more than a plaything. In Termina, the Goron Mask is a magical item which allows its owner to inhabit the body of Darmani, a hero of the Goron people. Ocarina of Time , Majora's Mask

Goron Racetrack

Gorons are hard workers, but when they have time to relax they enjoy racing or watching each other race at their very own Goron Racetrack. The Gorons roll tightly into speedy wheel-like balls, then roll as fast as they can to the finish line. Majora's Mask

Goron Shop

A small shop in Goron City which primarily sells Bombs. Ocarina of Time

Goron Shrine

The Goron Shrine is a place of worship located in the center of Goron Village. Majora's Mask

Goron Tunic

Fashioned from a sporty blend of Dodongo hide and Bomb Flower fibers, the Goron Tunic allowed Link to survive the intense heat generated within Death Mountain Crater. Ocarina of Time

Goron Village

In Termina, most Gorons live in the Northern Mountain, east of the Mountain Village. When Link first visited the Goron Village, an unnaturally long winter had caused many of its inhabitants to hibernate deep within the rocks. Luckily, Link was able to lift the icy curse and warm the hearts of the Goron villagers. Majora's Mask

Gorons

Generally, the Gorons are a peaceful race who enjoy relaxation. They spend their time mining rocks, which serve as their primary source of food. Gorons can travel very quickly by rolling themselves into balls, but they prefer to sit around a fire and dance and sing. Gorons have cultivated structured civilizations in Hyrule as well as Termina. Ocarina of Time , Majora's Mask , Oracle of Ages , Oracle of Seasons , Four Swords Adventures , The Minish Cap

Goron's Ruby

Goron's Ruby is a Spiritual Stone which, when combined with two others, was once able to open the door to the Golden Land in the Temple of Time. Link recovered the Goron's Ruby after defeating King Dodongo in Dodongo's Cavern. Ocarina of Time

Goron's Sword

Link received a broken Goron's Sword from a carpenter near Gerudo Valley, which he took to Biggoron for repair. Once repaired, the Goron's Sword became known as the Biggoron's Sword. Ocarina of Time

From Ocarina of Time:

You traded the Poacher's Saw for a Broken Goron's Sword! Visit Biggoron to get it repaired!

You checked in the Broken Goron's Sword and received a Prescription! Go see King Zora!

The Biggoron's Sword... You got a Claim Check for it! You can't wait for the sword to be completed!

You traded the Giant's Knife for the Biggoron's Sword! This blade was forged by a master smith and won't break!

You handed in the Claim Check and got the Biggoron's Sword! This blade was forged by a master smith and won't break!

You got a Goron Tunic! This heat-resistant tunic is adult size, so it won't fit a kid... Going to a hot place? No worry!

You got the Goron's Bracelet! Now you can pull up Bomb Flowers. Stand next to one and use (A) to pull it up!

You obtained the Goron's Ruby! This is the Spiritual Stone of Fire passed down by the Gorons!

Goron Tunic 200 Rupees A tunic made by Gorons. Adult size. Protects you from heat damage.

Are you collecting Spiritual Stones? You have one more to find? You mean the Spiritual Stone of Fire, don't you? The Great Deku Tree once told me that Mr. Darunia of the Gorons has it...

Dodongo's Cavern Don't enter without permission!

Land of the Gorons Goron City

Follow the trail along the edge of the cliff and you will reach Goron City, home of the Gorons.

Natural Wonder Bomb Flower Danger! Do not uproot!

Death Mountain Summit Entrance to the crater ahead Beware of intense heat!

If you can stop my wild rolling, you might get something great. --Hot Rodder Goron

Link, I hear Goron voices down below.

Goron Shop Mountaineering Supplies!

They say that Biggoron's Sword is super sharp and will never break.

They say that Medigoron didn't really think about his own size, so his store is really cramped.

Take a good look at that mountain. That is Death Mountain, home of the Gorons. They hold the Spiritual Stone of Fire.

You don't know what he means by "Sworn Brothers," but you've collected two Spiritual Stones! You have one more to find!

You don't know what he means by "Sworn Brothers," but you've finally collected all three Stones!

Go back to see Princess Zelda! I maaaade thissss... Trrrrade for claimmm checkkk...

I giiiive thissss to yoooou forrr a souvenirrrrr.

Kid, I like you! How's about you and I become Sworn Brothers?! No, there's no big ceremony involved! Just take this as a token of our friendship!

You did great!

How 'bout a big Goron hug, brother?!

Oh! Oh-oh! C'mon! Come on! Come on! Come on! HOT!! What a hot beat! WHOOOOAH! YEEEEAH! YAHOOO!!

I am one of the Gorons, the stone-eating people who live on Death Mountain. Look at that huge boulder over there! It blocks the entrance to the Dodongo's Cavern, which was once a very important place for us Gorons... But one day, many Dodongos suddenly appeared inside the cavern. It became a very dangerous place! On top of that, a Gerudo in black armor used his magic to seal the entrance with that boulder!

I wish I could roll down the mountain like a rock, with a Bomb Flower and... BOOOOOOM! If I could do that with a Bomb Flower, I could become a real man.

I'm standing here to shade the Bomb Flowers from the sun. Do you have a question for me?

Ask about Bomb Flowers Ask about Dodongo's Cavern

Those plants growing over there are Bomb Flowers. They are "mining plants" that grow only on this mountain. The flower's fruit is the raw material for bombs. But a non-Goron amateur should never pick the Bomb Flowers' fruit! They usually grow only in dark places, so Bomb Flowers that grow in a place like this are extremely rare.

Those plants growing over there are Bomb Flowers. They are "mining plants" that grow only on this mountain. They usually grow only in dark places, like caves, so Bomb Flowers that grow in a place like this are extremely rare. If you have the Goron's Bracelet, even a little kid like you could easily pick it with (A).

Did you see the cavern on your way here? That is the Dodongo's Cavern. Because the light inside is very dim, the Bomb Flowers, a plant unique to this mountain, grow like crazy in there!

Oh? We don't get many visitors way up here. Where are you from? The forest? What's a "forest"? Eh? It's where a lot of "trees" and "plants" grow? Now I'm even more confused! Nothing grows around here besides the Bomb Flowers... We don't have "seeds" or "nuts" around here either. Even Deku Sticks are very scarce around here!

I sealed the entrance because I don't have much merchandise to sell. But you're quite a persistent customer, aren't you.

I'm sorry... That Bomb is just for display. I'm sold out of real ones.

Why did you stop me? Don't stop me here! You can't stop my wild rolling! This wild rolling is the only way to relieve my stress! Now stand in awe of my wild, wild rolling!!

All right! I'll give you this in praise of your courage!

Thank you! Let me express my joy with more wild rolling!

Oh...I'm so hungry... Everyone feels faint from hunger because of the food shortage in this town. We are in danger of extinction! It's all because we can't enter our quarry, the Dodongo's Cavern. We Gorons live on a diet of rocks... And the most delicious and nutritious rocks around are found in the Dodongo's Cavern! But that seems like ancient history now... We've become such gourmets that we can't stand to eat rocks from anywhere else!

Sigh... I want to eat the top sirloin rocks from the Dodongo's Cavern!

Hey! It's dangerous for a little kid like you to come out here. You might fall down! If I'm not mistaken, you came out here to eat the red stone! Well, too bad! It's not here! What? That's not why you're here? You're looking for a "Spiritual Stone?" You must mean that delicious-looking red stone that was once displayed here! I was so hungry that I thought it would be OK to just give it one tiny little lick...so I snuck out here. But, it was already gone! I think Big Brother took it away. He always says that everyone is after that red stone!

Big Brother has shut himself up in his room saying, "I will wait in here for the Royal Family's messenger!"

I'm so hungry that I can't think about anything but food! Ask Big Brother about complicated things. If he's in a bad mood, he'll probably get mad at you...it can be pretty scary. But... I know his SECRET. He may not look like the type, but Big Brother loves to dance! If he gets in a rhythm, he'll surely...

I remember Big Brother used to always listen to the music that comes from the forest... Ah yes, the good old days... That music makes me feel nostalgic, too...

What the heck! Who are you?! When I heard the song of the Royal Family, I expected their messenger had arrived, but... you're just a little kid! Has Darunia, the big boss of the Gorons, really lost so much status to be treated like this by his Sworn Brother, the King? Now, I'm REALLY angry! Get out of my face, now! Are you asking why I'm in such a bad mood right now? Ancient creatures have infested the Dodongo's Cavern! We've had a poor harvest of our special crop, Bomb Flowers! Starvation and hunger because of the rock shortage! But...

This is a Goron problem! We don't need any help from strangers!

Heeey!! What a nice tune! Just like that, my depression is all gone! Something just came over me! I suddenly wanted to dance like crazy! I am Darunia! I'm the big boss of the Gorons! Was there something you wanted to ask me about? What? You want the Spiritual Stone of Fire, too? The Spiritual Stone of Fire, also known as the Goron's Ruby, is our race's hidden treasure.... But hold on--I'm not going to give it to you that easily. If you want it so badly... Why don't you go destroy the monsters inside of the Dodongo's Cavern and prove you're a real man? That way, everybody will be happy again! If you do it, I will give you anything you want, even the Spiritual Stone! I have something for you. I'm not really giving you this in return for anything, but take it anyway. If you wear this, even a little fella like you can pick a Bomb Flower using (A).

Destroy the monsters in the Dodongo's Cavern and become a real man! Then, we can talk about the Spiritual Stone!

Hey, Brother, play that tune again sometime soon!

No matter how many times I hear that song, it doesn't get old!

Well, that's not quite what I was looking for... I wanted to hear...a tune... something...um...from outside the mountains...something... green...natural... That's the kind of music I want to hear...

Oh, now we can enter the cavern. You're so smart!

I know a trick to conserve sticks! If you light a stick on fire, it will burn to ashes. Press (A) to put it away before it completely burns! By the way, I hid a stick somewhere... Hehehee...

It's me, Darunia! Well done! Thanks to you, we can once again eat the delicious rocks from the Dodongo's Cavern until our stomachs burst!

I'm so hungry that I can't think about anything but food! "Spiritual Stone?" That red stone that was lighting up our city? Big Brother Darunia took it away. Then, he shut himself up in his room and won't come out. Since then, it feels like all the lights in the city have gone out... Everyone seems so... depressed...

I want you to bring fire from Big Brother's room back here.

Oh, I see... We should have thrown the Bomb from the cliff...

You are incredible, destroying the Dodongos! Do you mind if I call you Big Brother?

Thanks to you, we're all OK! Why don't you buy some Bombs now?

You know, I'm so grateful to you. When I have a kid, I will name it after you!

If you want to hear more Goron gossip, head up to our city! Goron City is just a little way up the trail. It won't take much longer to get there, even on foot.

You pick the Bomb Flowers with (A). Press (A) again to set it.

When all the torches on this floor are lit, Goron City is really lively!

Are you going to clear out the Dodongos? It's a Goron problem, though. You're a nosey little kid, aren't you?! Well, of course we'll be happy if you fix it so we can get all the Bombs we want, like we used to... Just let me warn you, though... Dodongos are scary creatures! They'll eat ANYTHING!! So watch yourself, and don't get eaten!

I already told you! We're out of Bombs! Ohhh... I'm so hungry!

How was Big Brother? I see... By the way, do you know the music coming from deep inside of this tunnel? We all like this music!

I won't let you get me! You probably work for Ganondorf!

How could you do this to me? You, you're Ganondorf's servant! Hear my name and tremble! I am Link! Hero of the Gorons!

What? Your name is also Link? Then you must be the legendary Dodongo Buster and Hero, Link! My dad is Darunia... Do you remember him? Dad named me Link after you, because you're so brave! It's a cool name! I really like it! Link, you're a hero to us Gorons! I'm so glad to meet you! Please give me your autograph! Sign it: "To my friend, Link of the Gorons" Oh... I guess it's not a good time to ask you for this... Please help everyone! My dad, Darunia, went to the Fire Temple. A dragon is inside! If we don't hurry up, even my dad will be eaten by the dragon!!

B-b-b-boooo hooooo!

You'd better try to calm him down if you can... Maybe he will calm down if you talk to him? What do you want to ask him?

About the dragon About the Gorons

A long time ago there was an evil dragon named Volvagia living in this mountain. That dragon was very scary! He ate Gorons! Using a huge hammer, the hero of the Gorons... BOOOM! Destroyed it just like that. This is a myth from long ago, but it's true! I know, because my dad is a descendant of the hero!

Everybody was taken to the Fire Temple... While my dad was out... Ganondorf's followers came and took them all away! All of them will be eaten by Volvagia! Dad said that Ganondorf has revived Volvagia... As a warning to those who might oppose him, Ganondorf is going to feed them all to Volvagia! Dad went to the Fire Temple all by himself to try to save everyone... Please help, Link! I'll give you this heat-resistant tunic!

Dad told me not to let anybody follow him to the temple, but... Only you, Link, can save everyone! I'm sure that the shop owner, who is hiding somewhere right now, will also help you! Now, I'll tell you about the secret passage to the Fire Temple!

Try to move the statue inside Dad's room!

Who's there? Is that you, Link...? Oh, it really is Link! You've grown so big since I last saw you! I want to have a man-to-man talk with you, but now's not the time. Ganondorf is causing trouble on Death Mountain again! He has revived the evil, ancient dragon Volvagia! On top of that, he is going to feed my people to that evil dragon as a warning to other races that might resist him... If that fire-breathing dragon escapes from the mountain, all of Hyrule will become a burning wasteland! I will go on ahead to try to seal up the evil dragon... I'm concerned, though, because I don't have the legendary hammer... But I have no choice. Link...I'm asking you to do this as my Sworn Brother... While I'm trying to deal with the dragon, please save my people! The prisoners' cells are in the opposite direction. I'm counting on you, Link!

I'm saved! Thank you! Here, take this!

Link...Can't hold... anymore...I can't hold it any longer... Get out of here!!

Thank you, Brother! I really appreciate what you did. I thank you on behalf of the entire Goron race! You turned out to be a real man, just as I thought you would!

Don't forget... Now you and I are true Brothers!

It is something that grows over time... a true friendship. A feeling in the heart that becomes even stronger over time... The passion of friendship will soon blossom into a righteous power and through it, you will know which way to go... This song is dedicated to the power of the heart... Listen to the Bolero of Fire...

Link...See you again...

Link, it's so hot in here! We can't stay here for long!

Brother Link! Everybody has come back! Dad and you destroyed the dragon together, didn't you!

When I grow up, I want to be a strong man like you, Link!

Thank you, Link!!

Thank you very much for saving us!

By the way, I, the wild Darunia, turned out to be the great Sage of Fire... Isn't that funny, Brother? Well, this must be what they call destiny. Nothing has made me happier than helping you seal the evil here!

Hey, Brother, take this! This is a Medallion that contains the power of the fire spirits--and my friendship.

Big problem! Everybody is gone! But I'll keep my business open!

What a wild adventure! It will make an incredible story... I can't believe that the Dodongos suddenly appeared in such great numbers! And that big rock blocking the cave... All this trouble must have been caused by that Gerudo thief, Ganondorf! He said, "Give me the Spiritual Stone! Only then will I open the cave for you!" You, on the other hand, risked your life for us...

Tight fit...

I'm working on something really cool right now! But I think it's going to take a while...

If you can wait five or six years, it should be ready. OK?

I just completed a small weapon. How about it...

How do you like the feel of it?

It looks like there is a problem with its durability... But still...

How about buying this knife for 200 Rupees? Buy Don't buy

All right. Come back again.

Please...Don't...Eat me... If you eat something like me, you'll get a stomach ache! You'll be sorry!!

Oh, I see. Big Brother Darunia asked you to rescue me. I owe you big time! Please help Big Brother!

My Brotherrrr... Opened a new storrrre... It's Medigoron's Blade Storrrrrrrre... Howeverrrrr... I am betterrrrrr at making bladessssss. Hylian carpenterrrrrs praise me forrrrrr my skillssssss. I'm not lyinnnnng...

That broken knife is surely my worrrrrrrrrrk... I really want to repairrrrr it, but... But because of yesterrrrrday's errrrruption, my eyes are irrrrrrrritated... There are fine eyedrops in Zora's Domain... You will find them if you go to see Kinnnnnng Zorrrrrra...

Please go get the eyedrrrrrrops...

Yes No

Awww nooooo... I'm finished... My eyes arrrrrre so itchy... Owwwwww...

Oh, no! Everybody's gone! Only I was left behind!

I've been waiting forrrrr you, with tearrrrrrs in my eyes... Please say hello to Kinnng Zorrra!

Rrrrreally? You brrrrought the eye drops? I'm so rrrrrelieved! I'm going to use them rrrrrright now!

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww!! This is stimulating! It's worrrrrking grrrrreat! Now I can get back to my blade business! My worrrrrk is not verrrry consistent, so I'll give this to you so you won't forrrrrget.

Everybody has come back! It's business as usual!

Afterrrr a few days... Please returrrrrrn... Wait, just wait patiently...

Not yet... Hey you... You arrrre impatient...

That sworrrrd is my finest worrrrk!

Did you get the red stone? Let me get one little lick! No? Booooo!

Brother! You'll keep brushing up on your skills as you travel, won't you? You should go see the Great Fairy on top of Death Mountain! She will power you up! Hey, everybody! Let's see off our Brother!

I'll tell you a secret for saving me! In this temple, there are doors that fall down when you try to open them. When one of these doors starts to fall, move! If you use a sample of the Goron "special crop," you can break it...

Let me tell you a secret as a reward for releasing me! When you are on fire, you can put it out by swinging your sword, or by rolling forward... Did you know that?

Here's a tip for rescuing me! Somewhere in this temple, you're sure to meet up with some creatures that dance as they attack. Arrows won't hurt them! Looks like you might need some of the Goron "special crop!" That's all I have to tell you!

I'll tell you a secret for saving me! There are switches in this temple that you have to cut to activate. But, you can also use the Goron "special crop" to do the job.

I'll tell you a secret for saving me! If you find a place that you can see on the map, but can't reach, try playing your Ocarina!

I'll tell you a secret for saving me! In order to get into the room where Darunia went, you have to do something about the pillar stuck in the ceiling. Find a path that leads to a room above the ceiling right away!

I'll tell you a secret for saving me! A door is hidden inside the statue at the entrance to this temple. But, the Goron "special crop" won't work on it... Don't you have anything stronger?

Here's a secret for saving me! A wall that you can destroy with the Goron's "special crop" will sound different than a regular wall if you hit it with your sword. Are you releasing me? Am I free to go?

My Biggoron tool broke, so I was going to Goron City to get it repaired. Your coming here is great timing. Will you give me my saw? Yes No

If you want potions, you'd better bring an empty bottle. Understand, young man?

I don't know what exactly this is referring to, but it's in the market

I'm sorry, but this is just a model. Because of the crisis in Goron City, we haven't received any shipments lately and we're out.

Goron Mask -- Free to Borrow This round face makes you a little happier!

Wow! What big eyes you have! Gorons are so cute, aren't they!

Lake Scientist

Very interesting! A Goron! Speaking of Gorons, I wonder how my old friend, Biggoron of Death Mountain, is doing?

Some Zora, maybe Ruto Talk about a nostalgia trip! That reminds me of my childhood friend, Biggoron!

You shouldn't be so picky about what you eat! Do you eat all your green rocks? If you don't, you won't grow up big and strong!

Volvagia It's the Boss of the Fire Temple, revived by the Evil King. I don't know its weak point...

Recently Removed info that needs somewhere to go (maybe not this page)

It seems to be pretty solid to me that they actually have a loose monarchy, like fairies in the folktales - A Queen, several matriarchs, and general freedom to do what you want. Also, why were "Biology" and "Society" removed?KrytenKoro 20:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hylian language

Hylian is also the name of the constructed language created by Nintendo to be used by the Hylians. The characters are composed mostly of squarelike symbols and dots with a small amount of curved or diagonal lines, and changes slightly from game to game. The written form of Hylian is derived from Japanese hiragana, katakana, and romaji in its first appearances, though is based on English in Twilight Princess.

Hylian first appeared in A Link to the Past, though just identified as "the ancient language of the Hylians". Its written form was made up of nonsensical symbols that had to be translated by Link using the mysterious "Book of Mudora" to progress in the game.

In Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the scripting appeared on signs, gravestones and more. While no official translations or character sets have been released by Nintendo, some fans have created versions themselves by observing and translating the inscriptions in the game and on the game's box art. The script used in The Wind Waker (see below) is also used on the headbands of Kotake and Koume.

In The Wind Waker, the intro sequence had paintings with the language below it, and later in the game the whalelike creature Jabun spoke it to the King of Red Lions. Once the game is finished there is an option for a second quest, in this version of the game all Hylian speech is translated. In Japan, an explanation on the Hylian alphabet was printed on the back of the instruction manual, proving that the language is actually written like Japanese, but using different symbols.

In Twilight Princess, the language is represented by an alphabet based directly upon the Latin one, and the Hylian language in the game is in English. The script used in The Wind Waker is also used on tombstones in Kakariko Village Graveyard.

Bomb Flowers

Bomb Flowers (also known as the Goron "special crop") are handy tools Gorons use to mine and gather food. Bomb Flowers resemble bombs in both appearance and function. They look like standard bombs with a flower growing on top and 3 large leaves growing outwards. Underneath the "bomb" is the stem (with the leaves growing out), but normally this is not visible. Bomb Flowers break easily from their stems and once plucked they soon explode (although not as soon as would a regular bomb). The stem and leaves of the flower are bomb-proof so a Bomb Flower cannot blow itself up, which may be a defense mechanism. In Ocarina of Time, Bomb Flowers grow only in dark areas. By contrast, Bomb Flowers in The Wind Waker inhabit light-bathed environments (most notably on Dragon Roost Island). In the Oracle games, Bomb Flowers are grown in the northern region of Labrynna (it is the main export of the Rolling Ridge Goron tribe) and the volcanic world of Subrosia (specifically, in Lava Lake). In Four Swords Adventures, Bomb Flowers grow practically everywhere.

Fairy Government

Fairies in The Legend of Zelda are very vague creatures, but do make an appearance as important characters, such as Navi, Tatl, Tael and others. It is unknown if the Fairies have established a government or kingdom of their own, as the Great Fairies seem to be superior to other Fairies and different in appearance. In The Wind Waker, there is a Fairy Queen in Mother & Child Isles who looks like a normal sized, color-changing girl holding a doll resembling the other Great Fairies from The Wind Waker. It seems that Fairies live in all parts of Hyrule and Termina and the surrounding lands.

Hylian Language has been moved to Hyrule. Fairy Government sounds too... vague and slightly OR. I suppose the Queen of Fairies and her role would definately be worth including (as there is definite information on her) but leave it at that. Bomb Flowers in the Items article perhaps? .:Alex:. 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

For fairies, I do think its made pretty clear that they follow the Shakespear mold - mostly anarchical, but they do have a legitimately powerful monarch. This happens in the cartoon, too. For Bomb Flowers, they seem to be a major part of Goron life - yes, they can be used as items by Link, but they are described as the Goron's major crop.KrytenKoro 23:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)