Talk:Rachel Riley

Jewish background

As I understand it, she's never actually been an observant Jew, but has some Jewish ancestry through her father... so is arguably not really a Jew, although she identifies with that part of her family heritage. Some clarification would be helpful.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:1423:A721:D11F:41C5:86F2:40A5 (talk) 08:39, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Jewish identity can be tricky because it has aspects of religion and of lineage or race. We can't really say any more about that than what Riley has said about herself. In the Jewish News article she says "I am Jewish as far as my mum is Jewish. I’m proud of my heritage, I’m an atheist Jew so I’m not practising, I don’t believe anything." (Note that in orthodox Judaism, it is the maternal line that is important.) I don't know that you're going to get much in the way of further clarification.--Gronk Oz (talk) 09:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Ref 47 is a dead link

Ref 47 is a dead link 77.98.78.234 (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Now fixed. Bellowhead678 (talk) 21:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Masters degree

The article baldly states that RR has an Oxford master's degree. While this may be technically correct, it's problematic because Oxford graduates are entitled to convert their BAs to MAs after a year by just paying a fee - no further academic study is required. Most Oxford graduates don't bother doing this as it's essentially meaningless. Given that RR was working on Countdown when she was 22, it's very unlikely that she actually studied for a master's after her first degree. The ref given for the claim is very vague, and we need a more definitive ref at the very least. Ef80 (talk) 08:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

People can study and work at the same time. Filming a game show s not a 9-5, five-day a week job. Here is the Guardian mentioning the master's. And here's the Evening Standard [1] Lard Almighty (talk) 09:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but neither of those refs address the points I made. A master's degree is generally considered to be a postgraduate qualification, but Oxford allows graduates to call themselves MAs by just paying a fee. This appears to be what RR has done. See Master of Arts (Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin). Ef80 (talk) 09:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

We don't know whether or not she has done this. RS refer to her as having an MA. That is what we go with. Lard Almighty (talk) 09:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

That isn't what the article says. It says she has a master's degree, which may or may not be the case - the refs you quote don't clarify this. --Ef80 (talk) 12:13, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing to clarify. She has a master's degree. The Guardian: "You have a masters degree in applied maths from Oxford." Period. Unless you can find a reliable source that says she paid to upgrade her BA, then all we can say is what the RS say, ie. she has a master's degree. Nothing vague about it. Lard Almighty (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Multiple sources suggest she has an upper second in maths from Oriel. I can find no reference to any postgraduate study. --Ef80 (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I have shown you two RS that specifically say she has a master's degree. Therefore, we say she has a master's degree. That's really all there is to it. Lard Almighty (talk) 13:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ef80: If you don't approve of Oxford's policy on awarding Masters degrees, that is something you would need to raise with Oxford. Wikipedia just records that it happened (according to reliable sources).--Gronk Oz (talk) 09:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Both you and Lard Almighty are missing the point. An Oxford MA isn't an academic degree. It's a level of seniority within the University which allows holders to vote in certain University elections amongst other things. Oxford awards several actual master's degrees, but the MA isn't one of them. Whether I or anybody else approves of this convention is irrelevant. Ef80 (talk) 09:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand this, but Wikipedia goes with what RS say, and she is referred to as having an MA from Oxford. That we can't change. What we should do is change the wikilink from MA to MA to make it clear that it's an upgraded BA. Lard Almighty (talk) 09:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

No, we shouldn't, unless there's a source explicitly stating that's how she got her MA. Editors assuming that that's the case is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, we do know this is how she got her MA because Oxford does not grant "MA"s. It grants specific degrees (in this case it would be an MMathPhil). You can only have an "Oxford MA" by upgrading your BA. All explained on Oxford's website. Lard Almighty (talk) 09:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ef80: Are you claiming that "MA" does not stand for "Master of Arts"? If so, what do you claim it stands for? Can you provide a reliable source to support that claim? Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether you personally consider it to be "an academic degree" or not.--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I think what is being argued is that an "Oxford Master of Arts" is acquired differently to a Master of Arts at any other university apart from Cambridge and Dublin. It is not earned by extra study the way other Master's degrees are. Indeed, there is a separate article on Wikipedia outlining what the differences are. Therefore, this article should state that Riley has an MA from Oxford (as confirmed in reliable sources) but the letters MA should link to the separate article, not the main one on MAs, because that is the only way you can get an MA at Oxford. Degrees that you study for have specific names, in the cases of Maths an MMathPhil which requires an extra year of study over and above the three-year BA. Lard Almighty (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

That sounds fair.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

It isn't a degree of any sort in the conventional sense, it's just an internal indication of status within the University. Oxbridge has all sorts of these archaic internal distinctions, such as the distinction between 'commoner', 'scholar' and 'exhibitioner' at undergraduate level, and they all have their own varieties of sub fusc. You used to need an MA to teach undergraduates, and there used to be lots of other obscure privileges associated with it, most of which have now gone.

I suspect both C4 and RR's agent are quite keen to portray RR as some sort of mathematical genius, rather than the perfectly ordinary maths graduate that she actually is. Carol Vorderman before her used to get the same 'brainbox' treatment in popular coverage. Ef80 (talk) 15:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

However she is entitled to use the post-nominal "MA Oxon" after her name. So it is correct to say she has an MA from Oxford, however she got it (not that she has "earned" one etc.) Indeed, the MA supersedes the BA degree ("the nominals 'MA' should be represented in place of, not in addition to, the 'BA' in the holder's signature and on documents such as CVs." in the link I gave above) so the MA is the only degree Riley has. I think by linking to the article about the practices at Oxbridge and Dublin we can help clear up the confusion. But it remains correct to say she has an MA degree from Oxford because according to the university's own rules she can no longer claim to have a BA. Lard Almighty (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. The issue is the need to clarify what this actually means, which the article didn't do when I raised this subject. Ef80 (talk) 15:56, 21 August 2023 (UTC)