Talk:Racing Point Force India

Competitor Name

The article still states that they are competing as Racing Point Force India whereas the FIA entry list says Racing Point F1. Should the prose be changed? RhinosF1 (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

The prose has now been amended and the article renamed as per the consensus on WT:F1 talk page.AdamComer (talk) 10:18, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

There is no such consensus. The discussion is still ongoing. You jumped the gun massively with your edits.Tvx1 19:05, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Just read an article that the name will change next year https://www.motorsport.com/au/f1/news/racing-point-force-india-name-change/4308090/ Lobo151 (talk) 16:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Per the official 2019 entry list they are listed as Racing Point-Mercedes, so we should leave it as "Racing Point-Mercedes" until name change comes along. Admanny (talk) 16:43, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

It appears the team have settled on simply "Racing Point" after a deal with Lola fell through. https://twitter.com/RacingPointF1/status/1092710009706893312 https://www.racefans.net/2019/02/04/force-india-officially-becomes-racing-point-after-dropping-plan-to-use-lola-name/ http://f1i.com/news/329005-racing-point-f1-confirms-2019-name-change.html AdamComer (talk) 11:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 22 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 01:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

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Racing Point Force India → Racing Point F1 Team – The article was moved on 1 January. According to the person moving it, the move "was discussed at length at WT:F1 and there is broad agreement to revert the premature move"; however, the cited discussion is nowhere near as conclusive as to whether the article should be moved as the person moving it suggested. 1.144.105.3 (talk) 08:28, 22 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.   samee  converse  09:09, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. At present there is no evidence that Racing Point Force India and Racing Point are considered to be the same entity by the sports governing body and thus that 2018 and 2019 information should be in the same article. A draft for Racing Point F1 team already exists and can be developed further and could be moved to main space once the situation becomes clearer. The current situation seems to be the best at the moment.Tvx1 18:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per User:Tvx1, until we know whether the FIA consider the 2 the same team this article's name should not be changed, currently there is little or no evidence either way and certainly nothing which is convincing or definite. SSSB (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: the entry list published by the FIA clearly lists the team as "Racing Point F1 Team". The F1 WikiProject has consistently used the FIA entry lists as the ultimate authority; FIA sources supersede any others. But for some reason that no-one has been able to explain, that rule does not apply in this case. You say "at present there is no evidence that Racing Point Force India and Racing Point are considered to be the same entity by the sports governing body", but we have the entry list which is evidence. To assume that the team might be a continuation of a previous team rather than the start of a new one despite the evidence presented by the entry list is the bigger assumption. 1.129.107.50 (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Reply: Come on, this is getting ridiculous now. You have been editing F1 articles for long enough now. You know full well how the FIA operates with regards to team names and records. The entry lists demontstrate nothing whatsoever with regards to continuity between the teams and their records. All it tells us is that a constructor called Racing Point has been entered for the 2019 season. It’s not the first time that we would have constructors with similar constructors names and a clear connection, yet seperate records per the FIA being entered in succesive years. This no different than (Marussia) Virgin/Marussia Manor/MRT. We even have three articles on constructors named Lotus. But the most interesting example is one related to the team in question:Spyker MF1 and Spyker. I really don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve here.Tvx1 22:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
      • 'Comment:' "All it tells us is that a constructor called Racing Point has been enterd for the 2019 season." And where is your evidence that it is a continuation of a previous constructor? You don't have any. The only evidence we have clearly shows that Racing Point is separate to Force India. You're so concerned that if the articles are separate now that they will cause problems in the future if Racing Point is a continuation of Force India that you are wilfully overlooking the evidence in favour of pure speculation. If that comes to pass and the articles are separate now, they won't be wrong in the future if they have to be merged back together because new evidence becomes available. If you cannot provide evidence that says the FIA regards Racing Point to be a continuation of Force India, then the article should be moved until such time as you can provide such evidence. 1.129.107.106 (talk) 10:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
        • Reply: Are you serious??? Have you even read any of my comments??? I have NEVER claimed that Racing Point is the continuation of a previous constructor. I have stated the EXACT OPPOSITE. I have stated very clearly that we have NO evidence of "Racing Point Force India" and "Racing Point" being considered the same competitor. I have clearly stated that, for now, this article called "Racing Point Force India" should ONLY deal with the competitor that competed dring the 2018 season starting with the Belgian Grand Prix and that the 2019 records should NOT be meddled in here. In fact I have even created a draft for the 2019 constructor which can be further prepared for if/when it should be moved to main space. How can you not understand something that simple??? I'm really beginning to think that you're purposely trolling here.Tvx1 18:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal

I propose to merge Racing Point Force India into Racing Point F1 Team. The involvement of "Force India" in constructor name was only a temporary solution due to bureaucratic and administrative reasons Norden1990 (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose I have NEVER seen a source which considers them to be the same team. Unless this evidence can be provided there is no basis for this merger.
SSSB (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Some, if not most, sources acknowledge that one is a continuation of the other. But every source I have ever seen reset for the new team.
SSSB (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Support as we have the same personnel, the same location, the same facilities, the same car chassis series, the same engine series, the same drivers and the same registered company, we have exactly the same team. They pass the duck test. Sure they changed their team name and 'handle' (aka 'constructor' name) that they use in their dealings with the FIA, but we can obviously note that in the article, and record separately their achievements under each handle to align with the sport's normal practice. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

You know, all of these "same" things apply to e.g. Jaguar Racing and Red Bull Racing. Yet we treat them as different constructors because the sport treats them so. Likewise with Team Lotus (2010-11) and Caterham F1 Team. Again, different constructors. Racing Point Force India and Racing Point are quite simply different constructors. Also, same chassis series?? No, not at all. Force India VJM11 vs Racing Point RP19.Tvx1 17:08, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes I know, and I think the same about them too. I think the key is the underlying registered company. If that is the same, then the team is the same, regardless of name. Sure they can be sub-divided into FIA point-collecting-units, but there is no reason not to have an umbrella article, with sections for each constructor name, possibly linking to a main article for each of the ones that are long-lived, to cover their competition results. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

We already have that umbrella article and it's called Racing Point UK. Just because one same registered company operated multiple teams throughout its history, that doesn't mean the teams are the same.Tvx1 17:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose They are treated as separate constructors by the sport and thus should be kept separate here.Tvx1 17:08, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose different teams and so deserve separate articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: but see my point above - they are exactly the same team with no differences except for the name. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:40, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I read your above post, but they are still different teams in my opinion. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

That same thing applies to for instance Team Lotus (2010-11) and Caterham F1 Team. Yet the sport considers them to be separate constructors and thus they have separate articles. The exact same principle applies here.Tvx1 17:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose due to reasons raised by Tvx1. Also: the team is notable enough for its own article, even if they only lasted less than a year and are theoretically the same as another team. // Lollipoplollipoplollipop :: talk 17:20, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support - I have no idea who "the sport" is but as I argued some time ago, clearly they are the same team, but for 2018 they were a different constructor (since they were using the existing Force India cars). As for sources I typed "Racing Point Force India" into Google (ie to keep it as the whole term) and found: the official F1 website considers the current team to be the same as the 2018 team [1], the team themselves seem to consider themselves as the same as Force India [2], a view shared by "Racefans.net" [3]. As for news sites, The Independent and ESPN describes it as a simple name change [4] [5]. A7V2 (talk) 02:09, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

• "The sport" refers to the FIA, the governing body.
  SSSB (talk) 18:47, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

What evidence is there that the FIA (in contradiction to the F1 website per the link I put above) considers them to be separate teams? The constructor changed, from 2018 to 2019, however the team did not. During 2018, the constructor did not change. If the reason for claiming that the constructor changed during 2018 is the separation in the points, then what of constructors who used more than one engine supplier during a season? Should they have separate articles since they scored points separately for the championship? (eg Brabham in 1982)? A7V2 (talk) 23:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

The constructor changing is a perfectly valid reason to not merge (although it could lead to a merge with Force India, but that's a separate discussion) All our articles are separated by constructor, not team.
SSSB (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The Racing Point team ran Force India cars for (part of) the 2018 season before making their own cars. This article is clearly about a team, not a constructor, per the first sentence "Racing Point Force India Formula One Team was the team that Racing Point UK made a late entry...". Also, your oppose rationale is that you "have NEVER seen a source which considers them to be the same team". If all articles were separated by constructor, not team (which they aren't, eg see Tyrrell Racing), what is the relevance of this rationale? And I provided several sources which consider them to be the same team. No-one has provided a single source showing they are not the same. A7V2 (talk) 00:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Racing Point Force India is about the team, but Racing Point is about the team and constructor. Now, I was not aware of the Tyrrell situation but now that I am you have given me something to consider...
SSSB (talk) 07:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Agree with most of the points raised by other folks raising an 'oppose'. These are two distinct entities, and leaving it as such will be important to drive the sequence of events as well. Kaisertalk (talk) 03:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose team and the registered company running them were not always equivalent. If the articles on teams were about the companies I would generally agree with that point, but that's not the case. Most of the articles have zero info on the companies, and most of those companies aren't notable by themselves anyway, as they're only tangentially mentioned in sources (normally when discussing the financial health of the teams). And finally, statistics-wise (a key factor in sports), no-one considers companies a valid entity. Cases as the Tyrell one are inevitable as, in the past, a constructor could run a car with different teams, quite different to the present situation where "constructor" is almost (and I put emphasis on almost) always interchangeable with "team". However, I think the current solution fits the vast majority of cases, and we won't find a perfect fit for a 70+ years motor championship with an ever-changing set of rules and definitions. As for the continuity of location, it indeed may cause some confussion, but I think the current solution is also the best compromise for that. Using location as a deciding factor for articles may open a can of worms affecting teams like Honda, Benetton, or Williams. For the rest, I endorse the points raised by the other "oppose" !votes. --Urbanoc (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Force India and BWT Racing Point are two entirely different teams from two entirely different countries. Racing Point Force India is a part of Force India, while BWT Racing Point is a fresh company founded by the Strolls. Otherwise, I'll stick my opinion with the other Oppose votes. Hansen Sebastian^Talk 12:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. Racing Point Force India and Racing Point F1 Team are very clearly the same entity in any pragmatic sense, however the existing standard and consensus on Wikipedia is to have separate articles for every separate "constructor"; even if that is a nebulously defined jargon term which usually only matters in the context of statistics such as World Constructor's Championship position or number of race wins.

2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:B032:FD35:9797:B4F1 (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Predecessor

Racing Point Force India is a new team and not a continuation of the old Force India team. On 2 August 2018 the assets of Force India were purchased by Racing Point UK Limited, a company created by a group of investors led by Lawrence Stroll. The new company created a new constructor with the assets and entered the sport prior to the 2018 Belgian Grand Prix, taking the vacated entry of the original Force India team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:1A7E:9B00:F866:9807:815F:5B0B (talk) 15:21, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment - But Racing Point Force India directly succeeds Force India so I think that the use of Sahara Force India in the previous name parameter is reasonable.
SSSB (talk) 17:05, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Have to agree with SSSB here, Racing Point Force India is a direct successor of Force India in practice and is universally regarded as such. The break in the entry is a legal and technical change only.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 10:07, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Pretty much all reliable sources will agree that either version of Racing Point is the same team that entered F1 in 1991 as Jordan. However, from a legal perspective Racing Point is a different company using a new entry compared to the Force India team which preceded it, while from a statistical perspective Jordan Grand Prix, Midland F1, Spyker F1, Force India, Racing Point Force India, and Racing Point are counted as separate constructors. Regardless it is confusing, misleading, and ultimately nonsensical to pretend that Racing Point Force India is not a direct successor to Force India, even if from a very pedantic viewpoint it can technically be claimed that it isn't in a "actually the earth isn't round because it's an oblate spheroid" type of way.

2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:B032:FD35:9797:B4F1 (talk) 19:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)