Talk:Racism in Poland/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

This article needs a serious rewrite

Not only is the brief lead problematic in being WP:UNDUE and WP:OFFTOPIC, the entire article is skewed towards presenting this subject as if the WP:TITLE were "Racism against Poles in Poland". There is a specific article on Anti-Polish sentiment, yet this is being presented with the emphasis on racism against Poles, creating a halo effect. The current lead reads as: "As in most countries, racism has existed in Poland in a variety of forms and to various extents over the course of its history. The Polish people themselves have been the victims of anti-Polish racism under the German Empire and during World War II."

Prior to that, an IP was trying to push this with more wikilinks to further promote the idea that Poles have the monopoly on suffering, and have essentially been really, really nice people: "As in most countries, racism has existed also in Poland in a variety of forms and to various extents over the course of its history. Poles themselves have been the victims of anti-Polish racism under the German Empire and the Occupation of Poland during the World War II."

My suggestion is that the majority of the information surrounding anti-Polish sentiment should be merged to the relevant articles, although it has already been covered pretty thoroughly on those. The first subheader should not be a section on racism against Poles. The section probably best serves the layout as the final section.

If there truly isn't much to be said, there's no problem with cutting the entire article down to enough to get it past the post as a stub rather than using it as a promotional piece. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Given the existence of the other article your suggestion seems appropriate. Doug Weller talk 06:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

This article is about racism in Poland which means racism on the territory of Poland. A little did you know, Polish people suffered a lot of racial/ethnic prejudice inside their own country which, on the course of its history, went from one occupation straight to another. We had partitions, we had German nazi occupation, we had soviet occupation, and during those hard times, Poles were fiercly discriminated only for being ethnic Poles. Maybe it seems abstract to you, while your nations might not suffered such humiliation and pain as the Polish people went through, but the racism that Poles suffered on the Polish territory was huge. Don't deny it because it hurts me a lot when someone wants to change the facts. I see, you want to make that article look like racism of Polish people against others. Nice try, but not this time. It's racism in Poland and antipolonism was a big part of that! That's the way it should be. 192.162.150.105 (talk) 12:58, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Racism in Poland has and does occur both to and by the Poles, as implied by the title/topic of the article. The introductory paragraph has been edited to reflect this (and made more succinct), and the section titled 'Ethnic Poles' has also been edited to remove bias. Despite being more succinct, I feel that it does not leave out the appropriate details and is now properly written from a neutral point of view. --bLu (talk) 03:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I've just re-read, and now I'm not so sure that it is fully neutral. The 'attitudes towards minorities' piece in particular seems largely biased and should be reworked, so although it's better, it still needs work. --BLu (talk) 04:25, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

How is that section "biased"? It is the most solidly sourced portion of the article, unless you're referring to the stuff that consisted (and I removed it) of google translations of various internet websites.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:58, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

It is a solid section, but had biased language that I believe you have fixed with your most recent edits. However, I am concerned by the reversion of my edits-- I understand the point you've made about misrepresenting the sources, but upon looking into them, it seems that this is only true for source 1, the '80% of jews' statement that you've removed (which I agree with on account of a lack of evidence), and retains the same information from the rest (unless I'm misinterpreting here). Perhaps a better solution than reverting it would be to add a source that backs up the claim of a lack of overseas colonies, allowing for the edits to be used and benefiting this article overall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BLu (talk • contribs) 12:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

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Arabs and Muslims

I think hate attacks against muslims and arabs in Poland should be mentioned. They are most hated groups in Poland by far and many darkskinned victims in Poland of diverse ethnicities were attacked because assailants though they were arabs and/or muslims.

"Ethnic Poles" section

This section looks rather outlandish. Of course, in every country the invaders behaved as racists. By this logic we have to write about racism against French in France, against Russians in Russia, against Ukrainians in Ukraine, etc. I suggest to restrict this to links in "See also" section, because it really belongs to "Anti-Polish sentiment" article. IMO this rather large section looks here like A u was Murzynów biją! "tit for tat" hint. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:24, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I would rather focus on (comparative) ethnic/religious tolerance in the history of Poland / Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, well covered in sources. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

That's been my opinion for some time. There are an abundance of sources referencing the comparative cosmopolitanism throughout Polish history... and, yes, it reads as a pre-emptive clause. Trying to play the 'but we had the monopoly on suffering' card only elicits the wince factor from readers. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:18, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

@ User:Staszek Lem - is this article titled Racism in Poland or Racism of Poles against others? Well? If you happen to choose the first option, then it has to be stated that the hostile, race-based attitude in this country was historically aimed MAINLY against ethnic Poles, because unlike some other European nations, Poles were the victims of numerous race-based policies and ethnicity-based genocides inside their own, occupied country and that happened throughout the centuries. It's obvious that most people from other countries are uncapable to accept the real facts that the Polish people were racially discriminated against inside their own country, this is why they want to make this article fit the standards of their countries and nations that never experienced being discriminated and enslaved on their own land. Do you think this deserves to be omitted in such an article? If you want to omit that huge part of the Polish history and wipe it from this article, it means you want Wikipedia to be a source of incomplete and biased information. The "See also" section would push the substantial information on the side, making the article being fake and considerably biased. There is no reason for such actions. Yatzhek (talk) 19:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

You are half-year late. Nobody wipes it out of the article, despite the fact that you are thoroughly confused both in terminology and world history. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Polish Repatriates from Uzbekistan

Regarding polish repatriates from Uzbekistan, they were accused of being russians and savages isn't that a form of ethnic racism even if against poles or polish descendants from another country? Oranjelo100 (talk) 17:55, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Whether you are right or wrong, we need sources which describe this attitude as racist. Otherwise it is your orginal research, inadmissible in wikipedia. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Racism is racism, I don't know this specific problem, but Russians are by definition hated because of nationalistic/political reasons, Savages because of their customs. Radical nationalism or cultural hatred aren't racist.Xx236 (talk) 07:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Calling somebody "Russian" as a matter of insult may be racism may be not. If I hate Putin and his thugs, I am not racist. Calling somebody savage may be racism, may be not. Once again, sources please, which describe what is described and, what is importanit, which call this a manifestation of racism. Otherwise it will be original research, maybe correct but inadmissible in wikipedia. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:22, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Numerous references for various incidents

Recently user:Oranjelo100 started adding numerous references for various racist incidents in Poland. IMO this approach is not correct. Wikipedia is encyclopedia, not news service, nor catalog of all possible events. Wikipedia needs references which discuss the subject of the article in general, encyclopedic manner. We need references to sources which summarize the patterns of xenophobia, and possibly high-profile incidents of significant impact, but not collect each an every tooth broken. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:42, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

It's known as WP:RECENTISM... and, no, considering that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedic resource (that is, WP:NOTNEWS) it is outside of the scope of this article and smacks of op-ed POV. I suggest that Oranjelo100 has a thorough read through WP:ADVOCACY because it's not the purpose of Wikipedia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Here's a video essay I run into, as far as cataloguing the crisis across Europe from both sides, as it has unfolded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4K4okVa7dU — I believe the WP:RECENTISM brought into here is an attempt at restoring lost equity of some sort, Poeticbent talk 08:09, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: User:Oranjelo100 is on a crusade. Regrettably, most of what he does would have to be deleted eventually. For several years Oranjelo100 did not display any interest in European history and did not edit anything whatsoever about Poland. Since June 24, 2013 until now, the user edited exclusively in the field of computer software and hardware as well as popular video games for young adult males. A quick look at his contributions shows that Oranjelo100 does not edit in full sentences and relies on Google translate for everything. Notable examples include one short paragraph added to Haswell in twenty four (24) edits, and one short paragraph added to CrossFire in seventeen (17) edits. This is not a good sign. Oranjelo100 discovered Poland (e.i. Racism in Poland) in Wikipedia on 4 May 2016 at the hight of the Syrian refugee crisis. Indiscriminate dumping of machine-translated news-bytes followed, even though, some of them actually contradict his newly-discovered mission. Poeticbent talk 15:22, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

@Oranjelo100: You have been reverted, a section has been opened to discuss your WP:NOTHERE behaviour in 'developing' this article, yet you continue to add more and more undiscussed, op-ed nonsense without acknowledging any other editors. As it stands, most of the content you've introduced is going to have to go for reasons explained above. Please stop working on this article as if you WP:OWN it and make some sort of attempt to engage with editors here on the article's talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

11 May 2016

The Jewish community ... was all but eradicated

A masterpiece of what - Political Correctness? Germans and Austrians murdered the majority of the Jews, not the Poles, not Nazis, not E.T.s.Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

in many polish cities

Isn't it rather Polish?

How many are many?Xx236 (talk) 07:12, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Local governments of many polish cities - really?Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

instead of staying in their own countries to fight

In 1939 ten of thousands of males emigrated from Poland to fight against the Germans/Nazis, so there exists cultural/historical problem to be explained to Poles, why mostly young men arrive to Europe. Young muslims don't have any possibility to find wives in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

129 references in a short text, Google Translator massively used

NO to poor editing.Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 11 May 2016 (UTC) Jerusalem Post translates Wałęsa to English (maybe using Hebrew?), Polish portal retranslates to Polish, Google translator translates to English. It's crazy.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 11 May 2016 (UTC) An example Zwyzywany Palestinian. Xx236 (talk) 08:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

8 refereces about a man beaten in a night club. How many such fights take place in Poland? Hundreds, thousands? Imagine a Polish man dancing with a local girl in Saudi Arabia. Compare the Racism in Saudi Arabia with its few references. Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

archbishop Józef Kupny isn't the head

The church has its structure so we don't start with archbishop Józef Kupny and if you don't know the structure, don't write about it. Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Ukrainians

Ukrainians are Slavs, they look exactly like Poles, so which racism do we discuss here? There exists historical hatred to Western Ukrainians generalized by ignorants to Eastern Ukrainians, but it's not any racism. Xx236 (talk) 07:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Korwin Mikke isn't racist

Korwin Mikke (human garbage) has many vices but I don't know anything about his racism. He is economically oriented, so he rather means that the immigrants aren't economically useful, not that they are racially wrong. In fact many Syrian refugees are educated and some of them may start businesses in Poland. Who wants more immigrants selling forged handbags or drugs? Xx236 (talk) 07:37, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Mława riot

A Roma killed a pedestrian first, with a luxury car in a poor town, so there existed social basis of the conflict. The driver fled and was helped by his community which was illegal.Xx236 (talk) 09:13, 11 May 2016 (UTC) ~:It's interesting that the quoted report's title isn't hasn't been translated, it says ethnic orr social, not racial.Xx236 (talk) 06:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

pikio.pl as a source

You have to prove the reliability.Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Poor English

My English is poor, but I believe it's Arab not arab.Xx236 (talk) 12:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Western Europe observations

Poles live in Germany, France, Belgium, Sweden. They see problems cretaed by immigrants in those rich and perfectly organised countries. Poles aqren't obliged to change their country according to immigrant needs. Poland has never had any colony in Africa.

Immigrant politicians

Hubert Costa, John Godson, Killion Munyama. All of them elected by racist Poles, not by their ethnic communities.Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Removal of unencyclopaedic section

I've just removed the entire section written by Oranjelo100 as breaching WP:NOR, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, shockingly referenced using Google translate to misinterpret the content of articles and, finally, but not the least, for being illiterate.

Personally, I have no interest in trying to salvage any of the content as it was WP:COATRACK. Other editors are welcome to argue the removal if they they can find merit in any of the content. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Racism is racism and ethnic stereotypes are ethnic stereotypes

The name of this page is Racism in Poland, but the longest section is Attitudes towards minorities and level of tolerance. Let's move the page to a more precise name.

The basic split in Poland was (and still is) conservative peasants vs. liberal inteligencja. (Paweł Hertz, Gra tego świata) Usage of racism or antisemitism in this discussion is useful at the beginning but makes the problems less serious. A shepard called "Wolves, wolves" to try his friends. The wolves arrived finally.

The only politically motivated murder in contemporary Poland was the killing of PiS activist Marek Rosiak in 2010. Xx236 (talk) 10:45, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Link 24 is about Oświęcim, not Mława

Please check your sources.Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the link to 25. rocznica pogromu Romów from that section as it is about Oświęcim. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2016 (UTC)