Talk:Racism in the Soviet Union

Review

Seem biased? Useless info? Tell me your thoughts...Mangokeylime (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

• Very biased. The article stretches the meaning of "racism" to the point it has nothing to do with a race. Also it provides zero information about anti-racist efforts in the Soviet Union. The article is basically "all Soviet people who experienced political repression, Russians excluded". Beaumain (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Well the page like other pages about regional racism is about just that... racism not anti-racism. Mangokeylime (talk)

Very biased? Do you actually understand what racism means, Beaumain? What do you expect: a WP:GEVAL article on how the Soviet Union was a really egalitarian place, and that Russia was not the central power? Why would the RF have taken on the mantle of being the successor state if it wasn't the guy in charge? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Some Sections of the Article are really useless. The Section about Armenians and Azerbaijanis is accurate but those about Ukrainians has to be corrected because the Holodomor was a Result of Stalins Incompetence and not of Racism.--Janos Hajnal (talk) 11:08, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Decossackization

Here is ref describing Cossacks as an ethnic group, so that I think justifies inclusion. Of course they were also a social group - no one disputed it. My very best wishes (talk) 12:26, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I believe this belongs to the page because a number of sources call it "genocide", for example, a book by Orlando Figes - [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 01:50, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Purpose of the article?

The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." Hungarians, Poles, Germans, Russians are the same race (Caucasian). There are no such things as "Central European" race, "Eastern European" race, etc.

Thus, much of this content here appears to be WP:COATRACK. Feedback? --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:46, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

First of all, this is nothing special. There is a large category of pages Category:Racism by country. Are you saying all of them are "coatrack"? Secondly, you probably have wrong idea what racism is. This is not about Race (human categorization) (of course there are no such things as "Central European" race, "Eastern European" race, etc.). As our page correctly tells, this is persecution, discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their [perceived] "race" or ethnicity. That is what described in a large number of pages from the Category:Racism by country. My very best wishes (talk) 00:43, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO K.E.Koffman's question does have merit. his definition of racism includes the clause "that one's own race is superior". Wikipedia's definition says " belief in the superiority of one race over another". While racism did exist in the Soviet Union, but this article is not about it: its subject de facto is ethnic-based institutional persecution, best described, with the exception of institutional anti-Semitism, by the concept collective punishment, which was based on ideological grounds, rather than on ethnic ones. Notice, it was of exactly same type as religious persecution, dekulakization and decossackization, maybe something else.

Therefore I suggest to rename it into something like Collective persecution in the Soviet Union and write up the "real" article about racism in the Soviet Union, of which there was a lot. AFAIK so far this subject is covered in Wikipedia only in the article Russian jokes#Ethnic stereotypes. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:22, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

We have Political repression in the Soviet Union already. Welcome to contribute. However, any "ethnic-based institutional persecution" is racism. For example, ethnic cleansing ("population transfer") is racism. All racism is arguably a collective punishment because it is directed against individuals who belong (or perceived to belong) to a group. The dekulakization and religious persecution were also a collective punishment, but they do not belong here; decossackization may or may not be included, depending on consensus. My very best wishes (talk) 01:40, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

MVBW, you are saying that the Soviets persecuted Hungarians out of racial hatred, and not because Hungary was an Axis ally and a "capitalist" country? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

War with Hungary is one thing (not racism), but a persecution of Hungarians as an ethnic group would be racism. I do not know if Hungarians were persecuted as an ethnic group (not sufficiently familiar with the subject), however most of the Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#Ethnic_operations (such as Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush) indeed were ethnic operations and therefore belong to the page. Which justifications were used for ethnic cleansing is not really important. This could be "they helped Nazi", "they wanted our land", whatever. My very best wishes (talk) 02:13, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Hungarians are not mentioned in the article that you linked. The only mention is in the template language, and that's in the section of POW labour. Again, this brings WP:COATRACK to mind. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:17, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

The page is poorly written and not an RS. One should check RS if in doubt. My very best wishes (talk) 02:18, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Which reliable sources describe all this Population transfer in the Soviet Union and national operations of NKVD as racism? Staszek Lem (talk) 02:23, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

BTW our article Ethnic cleansing does not describe it as a form or racism. Was post-WWII Polish-German population exchange (clearly, ethnic cleansing) racism? Staszek Lem (talk) 02:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I almost did not edit this page. Please study this question if you are interested in. But I am sure you know that SMERSH and other similar Soviet organization have conducted a systematic campaign to exterminate national cultural elites in these countries, just as they did it with regard to ethnic minorities within the Soviet Union. That does qualify as genocide, and that had happen in Hungary, Poland and many other places. My very best wishes (talk) 02:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

I know that very well, thank you. But this was Communist ideological removal of ideological opponents regardless race, ethnicity, sexual preferences and amount of body fat. Enthnicity had nothing to do with this. The number of prosecuted Russians killed by Bolsheviks 10x topped all other ethnicities taken together. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Check [UN documents]: the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin. My very best wishes (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

There was no "racial discrimination" in Soviet political repressions.All races were equal before Lenin. The only criterion was real or perceived anti-Soviet views and activities. (P.S. I wanted to write "before Marx", but then remembered that in fact Marx was racist.) Staszek Lem (talk) 16:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

According to UN definition it was not only discrimination, but race/ethnicity-based extermination which amounted, according to many authors, to genocide. As anyone can see, the definition covers not only "race" (a politically incorrect and disputable human categorization), but ethnic groups which is a well-established terminology. This has nothing to do with Marx and Lenin. My very best wishes (talk) 18:14, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

No. Bolshevik's extermination from day one was based not on race/ethnicity, but on political views, regardless ethnicity. Of course this does not make it right; ideologically-based extermination is no better than racially-based. But we should not create confusion based on superficial features. I am not saying there was no racism un the SU, just the opposite; I am saying (above) that it is not covered in Wikipedia yet. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

It was both. Most of that, especially initially, were indeed "political" or extermination of social groups, but numerous antisemitic pogroms stated already during Russian Civil war (and the antisemitism is a variety of racism). Later on, the Holodomor was intentionally created by the Soviet government, along with Kazakh catastrophe. They were genocides of Ukrainians and Kazakh people, at least according to some notable historians, such as Robert Conquest, and according to many governments. Then there were numerous ethnic operations by Stalin, such as Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush. They was pretty much openly conducted against certain ethnic groups, not mentioning extermination of ethnic cultural elites in the former Soviet republics. But you probably know all of that already. What's the point? My very best wishes (talk) 23:06, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

The point is that these genocides were politically-motivated: as a punishment for resisting collectivization in certain areas and collective punishment of certain peoples for cooperation with Nazis. In Ukraine during Holodomor not only ethnic Ukrainian peasants were dying, but Russian, Greek, and Tatar peasants as well. Yes, antisemitism is a special case, but antisemitism is ubiquitous, even in Israel :-) Staszek Lem (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Are you saying the persecution of ethnic minorities (e.g. ethnic cleansing) does not qualify as racial discrimination or persecution only because someone falsely claimed that "whole your ethnic group cooperated with Nazi" or "hey, we killed not only your ethnic group, but also others"? The UN definition (see above) tells it does. Look, I already exhausted all arguments. If you strongly feel about it, please make an RfC (I am not even sure what is your question, exactly), or submit a question on WP:NPOVNB. My very best wishes (talk) 23:27, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Look, I am following wikipedia policies and its "database integrity". I am saying that we have a definition of racism : "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another" and ethnic discrimination is a consequence of racism, but it may aslo be a consequence of other worldviews. For example, one may well wish to kill off an ethnicity because of feeling endangered due to perceived other's superiority. Whereas you seem to conflate terms "racism" and "ethnic discrimination/prosecution" I already exhausted all arguments. If you strongly feel that our definition is incorrect, please make an RfC. Plus please provide reliable sources which apply the term "racism" to what was happening in the Soviet Union. Otherwise this article is one huge original research. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It was not me who created this page. I am just a bystander, but the content seems to be reasonable based on the currently accepted (the UN) definition what racism/racial discrimination is (quoted above). The overall organization of the page looks more like a list. So perhaps some criteria for inclusion need to be defined? That might be something reasonable. What do you suggest? To delete the page? To rename? To make it a list? To rewrite? How exactly? My very best wishes (talk) 15:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(the UN) definition what racism/racial discrimination is (quoted above) -- No! the quoted above is the definition of racial discrimination. You seem to ignore my remark that your opinion is based on conflation of the two terms. There is a reason that in legalese hairs are split carefully. There are 17+ types of depriving a person of its property. The same here. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

As about academic sources, one can find them, see, for example, "Socialist racism". See a list of publications here, such as Naimark, Norman M. 2001. Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, and others. My very best wishes (talk) 14:30, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Now, if you need direct quotation, here is it (from here):

Under the Soviets entire population groups were deported, there were pogroms and official and popular discrimination against entire communities. Originally based on class, deportations and discriminations soon became racially and ethnically motivated. The persecution and repression of Islam and other non – Orthodox religions, as well as discrimination against the Jews, was common in the Russian empire and the Soviet Union. The Stalinist regime carried out mass deportations of whole national groups based upon their ethnicity between 1937 and 1949 (Martin, 1998, Pohl, 1999). These groups would be exiled to the Urals, Siberia and Central Asia where they were confined in areas where living conditions and lack of rights would cause the inevitable death of hundreds of thousands. Over a quarter of the North Caucasian population perished in exile in the six years after their deportation. Similar statistics can be found for the other deported nationalities. Therefore it is impossible to deny that active state racism wasn’t at work in the USSR (Pohl, 1999). The notion that the Soviet Union was free from racism upheld in the regimes official rhetoric and accepted by many contemporary onlookers must be categorically rejected since the archives began to open under Glasnost in the late 1980s.

.

accepted by many contemporary onlookers must be categorically rejected -- in other words this is a novel view, so far rather polemic and fringy; who the heck is a Flora Connell? Staszek Lem (talk) 17:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

What do you suggest? Rename into Racial discrimination in the Soviet Union, per UN definition you cite (as well as Wikipedia's one). Staszek Lem (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

While your suggestion is not unreasonable, I would rather keep the title as is. Why? Compare with Racism in Russia. Everything described in "Racism in Russia" already existed in the Soviet Union - and a lot more (e.g. ethnic deportations). Not sure if you know how significant were ethnic tensions in the USSR. They were fueled by the deportations, russification, korenization, ethnic wars, intentional unification of people who hated each other in the same "Republics" (e.g. Karachays and Cherkess), etc. That is what ultimately broke USSR apart. The people's friendship was one of the biggest lies of the Soviet propaganda. Only more recent books like "The Oath: A Surgeon Under Fire" by Khassan Baiev put everything in correct perspective. My very best wishes (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit break

Good thing you brought "Racism in Russia" into the discussion: it did not occur to me to look there. This is exactly the kind of content I would expect to see in "Racism in the Soviet Union". While the current article must be moved to "Racial discrimination". there are multitudes of shades of "anti-ethnic sentiment". After WWII everybody hated Germans and Japanese. Was it racism? English have lots of ethnic jokes about Scots. It this racism? Staszek Lem (talk) 23:32, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

You ask strange and irrelevant questions. Yes, a part of Anti-Japanese sentiment was racism. Yes, "ethnic jokes" about Niggers can be racism. My very best wishes (talk) 00:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

You ask strange and irrelevant questions -- If you fail to understand the question or tits purpose, then ask for clarification, not jump to insults. Let me narrow it down. By the end of WWII 100% of Russia thoroughly hated Germans killed them and beat them and spit on them. (For comparison, all Russians derided Romanians for lack of their military prowess, but not really hated.) Clearly, this hatred was based on ethnicity. So formally you say this is racism, yes or no? Staszek Lem (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, a part of Anti-Japanese sentiment was racism -- here you go. Not all anti-national sentiment is racism. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, "ethnic jokes" about Niggers can be racism. - I did not ask about niggers; but here you are wrong: I challenge you to cite jokes about Niggers which are not racism. But I was asking about jokes about Scots. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The current article is not describing "Racism in the Soviet Union". If you look at the Hungary section, there's nothing there about how Soviets thought they were superior to Hungarians and thus discriminated against them. The section talks about roundups and deportations to the Soviet Union for forced labor, not mentioning ethnic hatred at all. I agree with the above: You seem to ignore my remark that your opinion is based on conflation of the two terms.

I think the options are (1) rename this page; or (2) redirect this page to Antisemitism in the Soviet Union for now, as nobody would argue that antisemitism was not racially / ethnically motivated. The article in the present form is WP:COATRACK and does not address the subject that it's named after. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

No, this page is not about Antisemitism in the Soviet Union. Please make an RfC if you want to rename it. My very best wishes (talk) 00:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm genuinely curious if you believe that the Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union#Hungarians section is about racism. Could you let me know? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:21, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• My opinion is irrelevant. Let's simply examine the source used on the page [2]. Yes, it qualify as an academic source. What it tells? It tells, for example, that "Since the local organs of the NKVD had to fulfill the numerical quotas, the collection process extended - as was mentioned above - beyond the ethnic Germans to Hungarians with German names, and to many who simply happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time [ref]". So, it tells the NKVD had an order to specifically target certain ethnic groups based on their names. Apparently, they were looking for the names because these people had no Soviet passports where the ethnicity (not citizenship!), was indicated to make the job of NKVD much easier. So yes, according to the source, that was ethnicity-based prosecution - please compare with UN definition above. Now, that thing with ethnicity in passports - many ethnic Jews pretended to be "Russians" in passport, or "Armenians" etc. to avoid discrimination, so that NKVD again had to judge who they were ethnically, based on their names. Are you sure you are familiar with this subject? My very best wishes (talk) 01:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union?

@Staszek Lem: What this article seems to be focused on, for the most part, is Ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union. There's some overlap with the Population transfer in the Soviet Union (where the former currently redirects), but some elements are quite distinct, such as the Holodomor. Do you think it would be a viable topic? Wanted to check before I start an RM. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:55, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Check also Forced settlements in the Soviet Union, Ethnic conflicts in the Soviet Union, Category:Forced migration in the Soviet Union, Category:Soviet internal politics, and Category:Soviet national policy. Here is] random academic source (50 pages). However, I would suggest Soviet ethnic cleansings, as the title of this Harvard source. Now, let's cite it:

" Germany’s invasion of the Soviet Union led to a massive escalation in Soviet ethnic cleansing. The Soviet government immediately deported 1.2 million citizens of German origin from European Russia to Siberia and Central Asia. After the retreat of the German army in 1943–44, the Soviet state deported its entire Crimean Tatar, Kalmyk, Chechen, Ingush, Balkar, Karachai, and Meskhetian Turk populations to Central Asia on the charge of collective treason. In addition, from 1944 through 1953, a number of peoples—Kurds, Khemshils (Moslem Armenians), Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians from the Black Sea region, Iranians—were deported away from the Soviet border regions in Crimea and the Transcaucasus."

• All of them, including "Soviet Germans", were ethnic groups. That had nothing to do with "classes" or social groups My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • All you cite from Harvard and much more is already covered in Wikipedia. BTW, the author, Terry Martin, the author of the paper you linked, has two books, which may be useful for the broader wikipedia article (the subject may be already covered somewhere, at least piecewise Korenization, Stalin's article, Russification, national delimitation in the Soviet Union...) --> National politics of the Soviet Union: Terry Martin is the author of The Affirmative Action Empire: Nations and Nationalism in the USSR, 1923–1939 (Cornell UP, 2001) and co-editor (with Ronald Suny) of A State of Nations: Empire and Nation-Making in the Age of Lenin and Stalin (Oxford UP, 2001). In addition to questions of nationality and empire, he has written on religion, political and administrative history, Soviet neo-traditionalism, and the political police, as well as the Nazi-Soviet comparison. He is currently completing a book on the politics and sociology of state information-gathering in the USSR from the revolution through the death of Stalin. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:08, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union is IMO correctly redirected to Population transfer. Holodomor is not ethnic cleansing because population was not removed, only drastically reduced.

Ethnic persecution in the Soviet Union would include the following distinct processes:

• General:
  • ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union,
  • Russification
  • prosecution of national cultural elites as "bourgeois nationalists" independently of Russification
• Specific:
  • state antisemitism,
  • Holodomor,

- at my first glance; may be something else.

As for Ethnic conflicts in the Soviet Union, I did not see the article before, but now I see, just like the discussed one ("Racism in..."), it is a ridiculous confusion and poor essay, in all its history. Requires massive rewrite. The major structural change is to separate two topics: inter-ethnic conflicts and ethnic anti-Soviet uprisings, among other lesser things to do. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:59, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• I will not repeat my arguments or comments from this discussion (my opinions did not change), but there is an additional aspect here. If anyone wants to make a page about racism/ethnic cleansings/discrimination in the Soviet Union, rather than by the Soviet Union, one should include some content about "racial policies" implemented by Nazi and their collaborators during WWII on the Soviet territory - as on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I will not repeat You do not have to repeat your arguments. That's not how discussions are carried out. Instead, you have to address objections to your arguments. So far you repeatedly ignore my main objection; here it is for the third time: In your arguments you are conflating the concepts "racism" and "racial discrimination" - these notions are not one and the same. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • one should include some content about "racial policies" implemented by Nazi That's a stupid idea. Therefore I agree that the correct article title would be Ethnic persecution by the Soviet Union. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Why a "stupid idea"? For, example, it was included [3] by another contributor after some discussion. Are you saying that crimes by Nazi on the Soviet Union territory were not driven/"justified" by their racial "theories" with regard to Slavs, Jews and other ethnic groups? My very best wishes (talk) 19:30, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO the stupid idea is to conflate distinct subjects into one article. Crimes of Nazis must have separate page, just as crimes of Soviets: this is the top-level classification: "crimes by who". There were plenty of various crimes committed at any given point on the Earth by numerous invaders and rulers during the human history. It makes sense to collect all crimes committed in a given, say, city, throughout it history, but to do the same for a large country this is meaningless, e.g., because of content forking . Although I am open to arguments why this case of "apples and oranges" may be actually reasonable. I was equally opposed to the same idea in article Racism in Poland, but decided not a argue. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, sure, "in" and "by" are different subjects. A lot of pages have been created or can be created in this subject area. They have a lot of content overlap. Good luck, My very best wishes (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Apparently there is no favourable consensus to move the page to the suggested title. (non-admin closure)  samee  converse  18:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

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Racism in the Soviet Union → Racism and racial discrimination in the Soviet Union – The two concepts are close yet distinct. See more detail below Staszek Lem (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

In google, the phrase "racism and racial discrimination" gives lots of hits, eg., a couple of prominent usages: "World Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance", UN Chronicle: "Combating Racism and Racial Discrimination in Europe". Clearly, R and RD ere very close concepts, yet it is commonly accepted to distinguish them. After a bit of reading I can list a bunch of reasons, but you better not believe me and educate yourselves, if you are going to edit this article. Currently the article 100% speaks about ethnicity-based discrimination, hence the discussion above. However, repeating, since the two are so close, it makes sense to cover them in the same article. Naturally it must be expanded with description of racism in the Soviet Union, the way it is done, e.g., in 'Racism in Russia'.

At the same time it is important not to conflate the two, because as a result it is easy to get confused about the major source of racial/ethnic discrimination in the Soviet Union: it was not racism (the idea or racial superiority), but politically and ideologically-motivated collective punishment and dicrimination of entire ethnicities. For example, massive ethnic cleansing of border regions in the Soviet Union was the perception of "fifth column" within "non-titular nations". (BTW, the same happened in Russian Empire during WW I; and in the US (internment of the Japanese)). Soviet extermination of Polish cultural elite was due to their perceived "bourgeois nationalism" and real and imaginary anti-Soviet sabotage and espionage. Etc. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with renaming proposed in the RfC. I have no objections. Do not see a reason to rename as proposed in the RfC. This is basically the same subject, but a longer title. Disagree with renaming to "Ethnic discrimination in the Soviet Union" or "Racial discrimination in the Soviet Union" (proposed below). Ethnic cleansing described on this page is not just a "discrimination". My very best wishes (talk) 22:05, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • No this is not. You carefully ignored all my arguments. Therefore I suggested a compromise title to satisfy you opinion. :-). Staszek Lem (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• If this is an issue, it is an issue that applies to many articles in Category:Racism by country, not just this one. A centralized discussion of all of these might be better. I'm not sure much would be helped by moving this article alone. Dekimasuよ! 01:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • This is not that critical for other countries. Soviet Union was infamously unique in this respect. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Also, the problem with is article is that it was a quick cut-and-paste of all low-hanging fruit rather than coverage of subject in depth: actual racism is not covered at all, only institutional ethnic discrimination. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: My issue with this article is that it's really not about racism. I would support an earlier suggestion on Collective punishment in the Soviet Union, as it's more in line with the content of the article. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:44, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

"Collective punishment in the Soviet Union" is a legitimate subject, and anyone is welcome to create such page. But it is an entirely different subject. It is much wider and involves punishment members of the families of "traitors", whole Red Terror, Great Terror and essentially almost all Political repression in the Soviet Union. My very best wishes (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

• The content of this article is markedly different from Wikipedia's other "Racism in articles...", and as commenters in this section and in the extensive discussion above note, the current title is less than ideal. However, User:My very best wishes correctly notes above that "Collective punishment in the Soviet Union" is a broader topic than that of this article. A couple of ideas:

1. What about a title along the lines of Ethnic repression/persecution in the Soviet Union?
2. What about a liquidation or massive pruning of this article and a merge with Population transfer in the Soviet Union since much of the content is duplicated there anyway?

—  AjaxSmack  00:20, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

The content of the page is different because the state policies and practices of ethnicity-based deportations and registration (i.e. ethnicity in internal passport) in the Soviet Union were unique. Perhaps refining the title as suggested by Staszek Lem makes a sense, but I do not see any serious problems with current naming or content because the discrimination based on "race" and discrimination based on ethnicity is basically the same thing - according to modern views about the ethnicity and human "races" (see UN definition in discussion above: [4]: the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin). "Ethnicity-based persecution"="Racial persecution" in my opinion. Do you think differently? My very best wishes (talk) 01:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support move to Racial discrimination in the Soviet Union or Ethnic discrimination in the Soviet Union, etc. That's more what the article is about than just racism. Agree that the current title doesn't properly reflect its contents.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I support these as well; prefer the latter. —  AjaxSmack  23:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment According to Marxist-Leninist theory, racism could not exist in the Soviet Union in principle. Would I be too abrasive to interpret the motives behind this flack as ideological? --Pudeo (talk) 10:12, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • racism could not exist -- Not exactly so. By Communist dogma, racism, prostitution, burglary,...etc. have no place in Communist society, but in the transition period of socialism they were "vestiges of capitalism" or, in Soviet cliche parlance, "birthmarks of kapitalism" to be eradicated. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • too abrasive to interpret the motives behind this flack as ideological -- why you say "too abrasive? All these ethnic cleansings were explicitly motivated by ideological and political arguments, without any circumlocution, by the authorities. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I find efforts of colleague MVBW to attribute all this to racism as an unwitting work to diminish the fact that ideological motives may be extremely cannibalistic, as history of all Communist states shows. And these motives must be prominently described as such: in Soviet Union ethnicities were discriminated not based on their racial inferiority (definition of racism), but for other reasons. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Behind the antisemitism and other "ethnic policies" of Stalin was quite possibly his personal hatred, or at least the "ethnic hatred" was openly promoted during such campaigns in the Soviet Union, and not only with regard to Jews. Note that Racial hatred correctly redirects to Ethnic hatred. My very best wishes (talk) 03:03, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unnecessarily verbose title. The term "racism" broadly defined also covers "racial discrimination". Per article naming policy, an article title should be as concise as possible. See WP:CONCISE. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "broadly defined" - That's your opinion. Sources, please? May be you may want to improve our Racism article, which does not say so. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose unnecessary move, per Rreagan007. Racism encompasses racial discrimination too and the current title is WP:CONSISTENT with most others in Category:Racism_by_country.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:10, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • "encompasses" is vague term. Yes, racism leads to ethnic discrimination, but discrimination may happen for reasons other than racism. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cossacks as a race

@Staszek Lem: The Cossacks are referred to as an ethnic group in several articles where the mentions are cited. As they are in Russian and some of the table are images an will not directly translate via Google, I'll list the article mentions.

• The article decossackization, the first line uses "ethnic": ...the elimination of the Cossacks as a separate ethnic, political, and economic entity. The citation immediately follows this line.
• The article Cossacks states: In Russia's 2010 Population Census, Cossacks have been recognized as an ethnicity. immediately followed with a citation in Russian.

It would appear to me that Cossacks qualify as an ethic group and the decossackization should be mentioned. Jim1138 (talk) 21:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not the first time and place where the census results are misinterpreted as an authoritative source about ethnicities. The thing is that in the census you may write pretty much whatever you want. We all know that there are Klingon and Jedi and Naʼvi in censuses. So no, Cossacks are not an ethnicity, don't even start it. Otherwise you will have not one ethnicity, but at least two : Ukrainian Cossacks and Russian Cossacks. And then you will open the full can of worms: every cossack host will want to be a separate people. Verily I tell ye Ussuri Cossacks and Don Cossacks look very different. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

BTW the article "Cossacks" lies (I will fix this). First, the statement is not in the source given, second is what I've just said: Russian census is strictly based on personal statement not on some list of recognized ethnicities. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:54, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Yea, verily decossackization has been treated as a genocide, and cossacks as both a generalized and later as more specific ethnic groups by scholarship, so if you wish to make BOLD changes to the status quo, you'd better be prepared with solid academic opinion arguing against this via an RfC. If you try to remove something that is reflected in serious scholarly debate, you will, indeed, be opening a can of worms you weren't expecting. Regardless of any census interpretations, specific cossack groups within the bounds of the Soviet Union pre-WWII were targetted (see Peter Holquist here for starters: "If many Soviet studies portrayed decossackization as an unfortunate anomaly, treatments in the West have held it up as a classic demonstration of the Bolsheviks' proclivity for terror, if not their outright genocidal tendencies." Much as I respect you as an editor, I suspect that you're not particularly well grounded when it comes to this aspect of the era or circumstances, and that you're confusing one aspect of the complexity of who a 'cossack' is, and what the concept means, when mainstream scholars discuss 'cossacks' as an ethnic group. You're welcome to discuss this on the talk pages properly, but not simply to restore a version with a large swathe of consensus content based on a promise that you can 'prove' that the cossacks were not considered an ethnic group. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

There is two issiues. (1) destruction of cossacks is described as genocide. Here I agree with you, after checking sources. (2) Cossacks as ethnic group. - This must be established in the article Cossacks, preferably in a separate section, because the claim is controversial. A aim starting a talk there. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

BTW, the statement in "decossackization" is partially false. Bolsheviks drew a clear line between poor cossacks and rich cossacks. In fact, there were plenty of "Red Cossacks", ample proofs in historical and literary works. Therefore the statenent that Cossacks were eliminated as "ethnic entity" is demonstrably false and shows the complete ignorance of the "reputable source" in the ideology of the Soviet Union. I understand that it may be not really ignorance, but the desire to attribute all kind of evil to Bolsheviks. But I keep repeating in various places that the myths about "child-eating Red monters" obfuscate the real dangers of poisonous Communist ideology. And this ideology is not division of people by their ethnicity, but by the amount of their property. However I am preaching to deaf ears in Wikipedia. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

This edit on Cossacks seems rather wp:weasel. If the Russian government accepts them as an ethnic group why are more sources required? Also, one wp:CIRCULAR for another? I'm adding this here as this discussion seems to be about the Cossacks in general. Jim1138 (talk) 20:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Did you really read my explanation about census at all? Are you saying that Russian government accepts Klingon as an ethnic group as well just because some smartasses listed themselves as Klingon in the census? Or where else do you see the statement that Russian government accepts Cossacks as an ethnicity? Staszek Lem (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

wp weasel. Why is that? Some people did report themselves as cossacks. Where is wp:weasel in this statement? Staszek Lem (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Biased article

This article, as of 2020, is still terribly biased. It doesn't adhere at all to WP:NPOV.

Plus, the article mentions the still historically disputed Holodomor, population transfers and political repression as unchallengeable facts.

The greatest problem of this article is that it mentions these events, especially Holodomor and the population transfers, as having an ethnic reason. However, Russians were also deported during these times, so the portrayal of these historical events as racism is historically and factually inaccurate.

Ethnicity did not determine complete deportation ie: Chechens, Ingush and Dagestanis were deported but not all Muslim ethnicities in North Caucasuses, Especially Azeris. Therefore, ethnicity did not serve as not the single determination for deportation.

Works – by Terry Martin especially – argued quite effectively that deportation functioned as a preventative measure against a perceived "fifth column". Soviet borders were surrounded by ethnic states who shared ethnicity with their minorities. i.e. Volga Germans with Ethnic Germans, Polish minorities and the Polish state. (Separately, Turkey remained a large fear due to a shared religion with Caucasian Muslims and ethnicity with Central Asians.) Therefore, historians argued that deportation deported ethnic minorities due to fears regarding their trustworthiness and national security instead of ethnicity.

There are also precise historical works, all factually documented, such as The Deportation of Peoples in the Soviet Union, by Nikolaĭ Fedorovich Bugaĭ.

We already have an article for Population transfers in the Soviet Union, one for the case about Holodomor and one for the (supposed) Political repression in the Soviet Union. Making an article to join all three, while calling all these things "racism" is illegitimate historical revisionism. --Felipe Forte ^{(have fun!)} 17:12, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm glancing through Terry Martin's "The Affirmative Action Empire" and it really doesn't support your case. The opposite in fact. --RaiderAspect (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Your arguments that the ethnic-based deportations were not determined by ethnicity because some russians were deported and some caucasian muslims not deported is a red herring. The Soviet Union NEVER ordered deportation of all officially Russian people/perceived to be Russian people from the RSFSR, nor was the RSFSR ever downgraded to an oblast. Never did the soviet government insist that Russians had no roots in the RSFSR. Azerbaijanis not being deported while other Caucasians were isn't "proof" that the USSR was tolerant North Caucasians, it rather goes to prove that certain minorities were targeted for marginalization on basis of each individual ethnic group instead of the broad racial-"hierarchy" systems seen in other countries like apartheid south africa - in other words, some ethnicities (like Avar, Azerbaijani, Abkhazian, etc) were considered "OK" while others (Ingush, Balkar, Chechen, Karachay, etc) were considered "bad" - not from a broad racial categorization, but a pick-and-choose approach on who is acceptable to hate on. Just because you are not openly racist to Yakuts, Uzbeks, Volga Tatars, Gagauz, etc doesn't change the fact that spreading propaganda depicting Crimean Tatars as un-Crimean Mongols with no ties to Crimea IS racist. Most minorities, like Ukrainians, Belarussians, Kazakhs, and other peoples with titular republics were treated very well in the USSR. That doesn't mean that the marginalization of deported peoples on ethnic basis (for whatever reason - perceived loyalties, land needs, labor needs, whatever) WAS discrimination and WAS targeted at victims for their ethnic background. I support removing the Holodomor text since it was quite a stretch, but if you think there was no racism against deported peoples in the Soviet Union (especially the ones denied right of return or targeted by pogroms like Crimean Tatars and Meskhetian Turks), I some beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Talk page section is outdated by the sources added to the article since. This talk page section was created in 2020, since then, reliable sources have been added to the article that back the title, even though it was already WP:NOTOR, now that is proven by WP:V and WP:RS. The warning box added in March 2023 did not introduce a new discussion. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 01:19, 3 April 2023 (UTC)