Talk:Radical lesbianism

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Loestee.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:44, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Disputed title

This article is about more than just individuals, it needs another title which better encompasses what the article already discusses, including radical lesbian groups, individuals, and theory. Logical choice, imho, is Radical lesbianism, which is currently a redirect. Mathglot (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Good idea. Nick Levinson (talk) 22:24, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Lead rewrite

The lead is supposed to summarize the article, but currently it only mentions groups, and not any of the individuals discussed in the article body. And it doesn't even cover all the important groups, either: where are Lavender Menace, or Radicalesbians?

And the article (and lead) should probably talk about how mainstream second-wave American feminism tried to ignore, sideline, or silence radical lesbian feminism, going back to Betty Friedan. Mathglot (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

If content is in the body that should be in the lead, any editor is free to edit the lead accordingly.

If content is missing from the body because it hasn't been added, any editor is free to add it. Probably most articles in Wikipedia are missing some weighty content because it hasn't been added yet.

Nick Levinson (talk) 22:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 31 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (page mover nac) The editor whose username is Z0 09:23, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

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Radical lesbians → Radical lesbianism – The requested title has been proposed since December 2017: Talk:Radical lesbians § Disputed title. One editor supported that proposal and no one opposed it. — bieχχ (talk) 20:31, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Sam Sailor 21:38, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I'll add an actual rationale: The article is about a movement/ideology, so its title should end in -ism. Articles with similar titles are Political lesbianism and Radical feminism. Sources that use the name "radical lesbianism" for the movement include [1][2] — bieχχ (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support Seems clear that it is about an ideology. There is not a radical feminists article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 07:02, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support Per WP:PRECISION, which could imply that discussions of theory were less central to the topic than personalities; which isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) the case. A (minor) reason is that it makes it easier to distinguish from the redirect with possibilities "Radicalesbians" which could easily have its own article someday. Mathglot (talk) 07:58, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Added advice of Proposed move to WT:LGBT. Mathglot (talk) 08:06, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Added advice of Proposed move to WT:Feminism. Mathglot (talk) 08:17, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Strong support: the article's subject is the ideology/movement, not its constituent members, and this is the form preferred with everything from materialism (not materialists) to republicanism (not republicans). There is also, ahem, a rather strange subtext to the phrase "radical lesbians" that "radical lesbianism" does not share to the same extent. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 13:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CONSISTENCY with Radical feminism. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:15, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support. While the article is not brilliantly written, it's clear the focus is intending to be the movement(s)/ideology not the people. Thryduulf (talk) 11:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:15, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Z0: Can you kindly complete the move process, by leaving a redirect at red-linked Talk:Radical lesbians to the new Talk page? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Z0, is there something I'm missing? If there's a reason that Radical lesbians was moved leaving a redirect behind but Talk:Radical lesbians was moved with no redirect, can you let me know? Otherwise, I'll just go ahead and add one. Mathglot (talk) 04:36, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

 Done I went ahead and did it. Mathglot (talk) 10:50, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello, Mathglot. Thanks for the ping but I've changed my username from Z0 some time ago so failed to get the notification. Radical lesbians wasn't moved with a redirect left behind. I had to perform a history swap due to the technical restriction (using the round-robin method - B → C, A → B, C → A), the talk pages followed suit. Since there wasn't a talk page at the then-redirected article (Radical lesbianism), no redirect was left behind when the page was moved to the new title. Flooded with them hundreds 14:30, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Bibliography for Proposed Updates to Article

This is the beginning of a bibliography I will be using to update this article on Radical lesbianism. I have had trouble finding sources that specifically address radical lesbianism and have instead had to pull threads about it out of sources about lesbian feminism.

Carden, Kailah R., et al. “A Critical Archival Pedagogy: The Lesbian Herstory Archives and a Course in Radical Lesbian Thought.” Radical Teacher, no. 105, Summer 2016, pp. 23–32.

Usage: Kailah Carden wrote this article on how Radical Lesbian thought should be included in education, especially when talking about second wave feminism. She proposes a lesson plan that includes a visit to Lesbian History Archives. This is important because it seeks to normalize radical feminism within education and could be useful when thinking about this movement in future contexts.

Marrow, Joanne. "Recapturing our Radical Roots." Contemporary Women's Issues Database, 1997.

Usage: Joanne Marrow not only converses with another potentially useful source (Reasserting Radical Lesbian Feminism) but provides a clean overview of differing schools of lesbian feminism. She claims that lesbian feminists find radical feminism to be less political and therefore have decided to abandon the phrase. This provides an important counter perspective that will help add multiple view points to this entry.

Murray, Heather. “Free for All Lesbians: Lesbian Cultural Production and Consumption in the United States during the 1970s.” Journal of the History of Sexuality, vol. 16, no. 2, 2007, pp. 251–275.

Usage: This article will be helpful in explaining the complex social roots of radical lesbianism. Heather Murray focuses on the oppressive structures that this movement seeks to dismantle and also discusses how this intersects (and sometime clashes) with lesbian feminism.

Poirot, Kristan. “Domesticating the Liberated Woman: Containment Rhetorics of Second Wave Radical/Lesbian Feminism.” Women’s Studies in Communication, vol. 32, no. 3, Fall 2009, pp. 263–292.

Usage: Kristan Poirot contextualizes the lesbian "struggle" within the broader movement of second wave feminism. By doing this, she discusses "strategies of containment," or ways in which radical/lesbian feminism was restrained. Interestingly, she uses the words "lesbian" and "radical" interchangeably which may be an interesting topic of discussion.

Ross, Becki. “The House That Jill Built: Lesbian Feminist Organizing in Toronto, 1976-1980.” Feminist Review, no. 35, 1990, pp. 75–91.

Usage: Becki Ross analyzes the lesbian feminist movement in Toronto but, like Murray, contextualizes radical feminism within an oppressive system. This historical analysis is helpful for grounding the article and radical feminist history.

Wittig, Monique. The Straight Mind and Other Essays. Beacon Press, 1992.

Usage: Monique Wittig's collection of essays addresses radical lesbianism and female sexuality as well as how these concepts have been shaped by a largely heteronormative society. This source will be helpful in developing a more complete timeline of radical lesbianism as well as in finding relevant key words and sources that may open up other sources.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions or feedback on these sources --Loestee (talk) 07:12, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Contradiction with Feminist separatism article

The Feminist separatism article makes a different claim about the origin of Radical lesbianism than this article does. I've started a discussion at the Talk page there, and your feedback is requested at Talk:Feminist separatism#Origin of radical lesbianism. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 07:28, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

Mathglot (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)