Talk:Radin Mas, Singapore

Contested change of scope

@MageLam: The scope of this article is well defined as the area called Radin Mas. The WP:PRIMARYUSAGE of "Radin Mas" has been to mean the area in Singapore. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: The original scope of the article was regarding a village also named Radin Mas. To say I can't change the scope of this article would be wrong, as the scope of an article evolves over time. -- MageLam (talk) 17:08, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

In fact, there is no way to identify the location of "Radin Mas" proper, much like Thomson. It is just a name that is used to imply the historical extent of Bukit Merah.[1] -- MageLam (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

There is also no actual estate called "Radin Mas". Most of the time, the term is used to refer to the constituency of the same name or as I said previously, the historical extent of Bukit Merah (specifically Telok Blangah).[2] -- MageLam (talk) 17:20, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The place called Radin Mas includes the Kampong Radin Mas as well. A village is a place too. The vast majority of references to Radin Mas have been for the area in Singapore. While it may not be formally marked in the map today, it still existed at one time. We don't change the article about Temasek to Singapore. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

As for Thomson, it is still marked in the maps even today. Go have a look at the SLA maps outside Harbourfront MRT. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: Per WP:BRD you were not supposed to do this. I suggest you revert back to the long term status quo. Sorry, but if this continues I will have to report you for edit warring. This is becoming a behavioural issue. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:35, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: I have no intention at edit warring, this is my last edit for this article for the time being. Also, as I have said previously. Editing on articles regarding places in Singapore shouldn't be done at the moment. There is no "guideline" that exists in regards to such articles. I'm politely telling you now that it is best to stay off editing such articles until we reach an agreement on the guideline for WP:SGPLACES. You are already in a sense, involved in the edit warring. However, I have tried to keep myself away from you for awhile ever since your edits regarding the location of Masjid Temenggong Daeng Ibrahim, in which case, I let you off. -- MageLam (talk) 17:40, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I have reverted to the long time WP:STATUSQUO. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the process of dealing with contested edits. Any contested edit once reverted it not supposed to be done again without consensus. Rather a community input is required for it. Article are generally never merged without discussion. Changing the scope of articles is contentious and needs to be discussed first on the talk page. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: I would advise that you leave the page as it is now, in its current status-quo state. Let's not do anything until we are done with the guideline. -- MageLam (talk) 18:02, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Cool! So finally back to square one. And all this could have been avoided had you not tried to change the scope. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Look ok, sorry, if it weren't for my rash actions. Just leave everything as it is for now. This has been quite a dilemma for the pass few weeks. -- MageLam (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Proposed change of scope

@Lemongirl942: Hey there! Since I'm free for the moment, why not we take the opportunity to discuss about changing the scope of this article. I feel that the article should be focusing on the legend of Radin Mas itself as there really isn't any area or estate called "Radin Mas" from what I can recall as a resident of Bukit Merah myself. Often, it is used to refer to the constituency of the same name or the historical extent of Bukit Merah. -- MageLam (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: From what I know Radin Mas was a kampong, but also was used to refer to the area around it. There was actually a road called "Radin Mas" as well. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

[3],[4],[5]. There are many references that this area existed. I have personal experiences as well that - many older folks call it Radin Mas. I am unable to find the map in NAS at the moment (seems to be some error), but Radin Mas was marked on it when I was last able to open it. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

More sources [6],[7] --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Most people would recognize the term "Radin Mas" in casual context as in reference to the legend itself. The area known as "Radin Mas" dosen't hold much notability. The original scope of the article was about the village known as Kampong Radin Mas. Someone just happened to drive-by and edit it, changing the scope of the article. Historical interpretations of Radin Mas are rather vague. There region has no "epicenter", neither is it possible to pin point where exactly it is. Keeping it from a historical perspective, I rather have this article center on the legend not the place. -- MageLam (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: The Straits Times here points out that "The rich history of Radin Mas dates back to the 1800s. Spanning Redhill, Bukit Purmei and Tiong Bahru". The Radin Mas Heritage Trail also span the same areas. This goes to show that the term "Radin Mas" is also used to refer to Bukit Merah as a whole historically. -- MageLam (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Changing the scope of the article to the legend can probably help alleviate the confusion over the extent of the area. -- MageLam (talk) 17:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: I just checked the 1975 SLA map I have and Radin Mas is marked over there (between Bukit Purmei and Telok Blangah Rise). It doesn't seem to cover the entire Bukit Merah though. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:31, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Like I said, the extent of Radin Mas is largely ambiguous. You can't tell where exactly Radin Mas is. -- MageLam (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: It may have historically been a locale but in today's context, you will more or less see the term "Radin Mas" being used to refer to the legend or the constituency. Singapore Infopedia for instance has an article about the keremat of Radin Mas, only briefly mentioning the vague extent of the area. -- MageLam (talk) 17:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Like I said earlier, I also can't recall an actual neighbourhood or precinct that has the name "Radin Mas" in it. -- MageLam (talk) 17:42, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: It is marked quite clearly on the 1975 SLA map though. Of course the map doesn't show boundaries, but then most maps actually just write the name over the rough location. As I said before, a "place" generally has ambiguous boundaries, which is one of the reasons cartographers use this system. The term Radin Mas seems to be used by SLA quite recently as well [8]. The current article's introduction that it is a neighbourhood of Telok Blangah is incorrect. But that doesn't mean that the term is not used. It is used to refer to the area which is partially covered by Bukit Purmei today --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

See [9] as well. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:46, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Of course, I'm not denying the fact that the term is not used. But historically, you could say it would most likely refer to the legend rather than the place. I could reproduce almost the entire Bukit Merah article here if you wish to discuss the geographical extent of "Radin Mas". -- MageLam (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: I did a quick check in sources. Historically (in reliable sources), the term Radin Mas has mostly referred to the area (including the kampong), then the constituency/community centre and then the legend. In this case, the primary topic for Radin Mas is easily the place/kampong. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:53, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: I would better describe Radin Mas as a "historical region" rather than an area given its largely ambiguous location. -- MageLam (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: You could probably mention its defenition and historical use in the introduction. But given the fact that you already have a nice draft in your sandbox, why not use that? -- MageLam (talk) 17:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: The "term historical" region is not entirely correct here. It refers to something whose usage has fallen out of current use. In this case, it actually hasn't. Maybe in some years it will and then it would be appropriate to say that "Radin Mas was a historical region. It spanned...."

Here's the problem with converting the scope of Radin Mas to "Radin Mas Ayu". I did some research recently and got enough content for both articles. But including one in another creates problems of WP:WEIGHT. I will give you a contemporary example here. For instance, would you mention the contents of Clementi in Cecil Clementi Smith or vice versa? Or convert the scope of one to another? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:11, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: The term "historical region" would be appropriate. Its defenition dosen't necessarily mean that it is out of use. Look at Slavonia for instance, a historical region in Croatia. That term isn't out of use, yet it is described as a historical region. You can't also say that Radin Mas "was" a historical region given the fact that a historical region remains there throughout the course of its history. -- MageLam (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam: Sorry, the 'was' was a mistake. What is the definition of the term "historical region" though? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:38, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Basically its an ambiguously defined geographical region that is historically diverse in one way or another. I suggest you look at regional history. -- MageLam (talk) 03:02, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, regional history seems to different from a "historical region". The closest definition I found was here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: It is still best to describe Radin Mas as such. It is not as if I would approach someone and say, "Hey, I want to go to Radin Mas today.". No individual in any sane sense would do that in the context of today. Maps and documents rarely use the name these days, so I believe it would be better to describe it as a historical region rather than an "area". -- MageLam (talk) 03:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: In fact, what is there to talk about since the area known as "Radin Mas" spans almost the entirety of Bukit Merah? You might as well just discuss the contents of the area in the Bukit Merah article or in a "Legacy" section. There really is little to discuss about the region itself. I suggest we continue sticking with what I propose. I can't say much about this "place". -- MageLam (talk) 04:10, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I get what you are trying to say. But if the definition of "historical region" is correct, it is factually incorrect to describe Radin Mas as a "historical region" here. When we apply terms, we need to be careful. In this case, the name is still current and hasn't gone out of use. [10],[11]. As long as the name is referred to in reliable sources, it isn't really a historical region.

For the historical and current extent, it can be mentioned along side the lead. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:13, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Also, Radin Mas doesn't span the entirety of Bukit Merah. I'm curious, did you have a look at the 1975 SLA map? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I may not be active much today but I will try looking up another map in a few days to confirm the extent of Radin Mas. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: First of all, do you look at interpretations other than maps?[12][13] Secondly, the two sources that you cite are vaguely implying the constituency of the same name.[14][15] As of recent memory, I don't recall the existence of a physical Radin Mas estate. -- MageLam (talk) 04:35, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Radin Mas interpretations.

1966 SLA map (Between current Telok Blangah rise and Bukit Purmei)

1975 SLA map (Between current Telok Blangah rise and Bukit Purmei)

[16] Doesn't explicitly mention, but implies parts of Telok Blangah, Redhill, Bukit Merah Central, Bukit Purmei

[17] "Spanning Redhill, Bukit Purmei and Tiong Bahru"

Straits Times, 16 Aug 1990. "Legend has it that a Javanese princess gave her name to the area that is now partly occupied by the Bukit Purmei HDB Estate."

[18] Doesn't explicitly mention but implies parts of Bukit Purmei, Telok Blangah --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I suspect some of the interpretations may actually have been influenced by the constituency boundaries. But since they are cited, I guess we will have to consider them. This is a complex case because Radin Mas was historically a legit village. The name later stuck on to a ward/constituency and continues to be used today. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:48, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

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