Talk:Radwan coat of arms

Nietzsche, Dostoevsky

This addition [1] by a user who then demanded this can at best be a bad joke. Sadly, User:Interrex seems to be unable to understand it and tortured me (in the German wikipedia) with his self-proclaimed "common knowledge" about Nietzsche's Polish ancestry, which in fact is long known to be a legend, although faithfully reproduced by some bad readers and agitators (see here, here, here and here; read Hans von Müller: Nietzsches Vorfahren, edited by Richard Frank Krummel and Evelyn Krummel, in: Nietzsche Studien 31 (2002)). So please keep them out of this article (or else give a reliable source which disproves these ones.)--Chef aka Pangloss 11:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Nietzsche's claims of noble Polish descent are to be dismissed. A point-for-point rebuttal, perhaps in the "Friedrich Nietzsche as Polish Nobleman Radwan Nicki Controversy" section would be more informative. If anything, what will be likely proven is there's much unresolved controversy on this point, but I'm of the opinion Nietzsche knew of that which he wrote concerning his noble Polish ancestry, given he had personal knowledge of the subject, which he put on the record and in writings for publication, and it's highly presumptuous to posture otherwise. Dismissals based on so-called long-known legends are unconvincing. The term "Polish" may mean significantly different things, depending on to whom the term applies and the when, why, and to which period. -- Exxess 00:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you read any of the sources I have given? I am afraid you have not, since if you had, you would not have written what you have written here and in the article. (That is, you have no idea what Nietzsche claimed, what his sister claimed, who & when first claimed the connection to the Nickis of the Radwan and why all their claims can be and have been dismissed). I have tried to give a new summary about the topic at de:Diskussion:Radwan (Wappengemeinschaft), and I will try to insert a translation here, as you perhaps requested. There is a difference between research and picking some quotations from weblinks and Kaufmann's book and then arranging them suggestively.--Chef aka Pangloss 14:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So much for the "bad joke" of Dostoevsky bearing the Radwan Coat-of-Arms. He did. His family bore the Radwan Coat-of-Arms for centuries. See the reference section in the article. -- Exxess (talk) 02:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. Nietzsche did indeed consider himself Polish. You can find it in his collected personal letters, plus the sources given by this user. I don't think this section on Nietzsche really belongs in this article - it should maybe be moved to the Nietzsche article? - but it is definitely true that Nietzsche asserted a Polish descent. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 17:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Niëzky/Niëtzky

Nietzsche began his career as a philologist, and given he's considered a genius, it would not elude him his surname "Nietzsche" and "Niëzky/Niëtzky" are cognate with the Polish "Nicki." Spelling of surnames varies greatly the further back in time one goes, especially with migrations to different countries.

The Polish Dąbrowski becomes Dombrowski, Dombrowsky, Dombrovski, Dombrovsky, Dambrauskas, the last clearly demonstrating vowels were often of no consequence. All this was probably patently obvious to Nietzsche.

Info. courtesy of Boris Jivoult, March 17, 2002: the name Jivoult, French, reveals its Polish origins in the long course of history in this fashion:

Zywult, Zywulczyszki, Zybult (Prussia), Zylwicziaj, Zeywalt, Zeywald, Zejvalt, Zegwald, Zegtelt, Szewolde (Darmstadt), Szewelt, (Darmstadt) Sygulda, Seywalt, Sevold, Sevelt, Sevelde (Darmstadt), Seiwulczyski, Segfelt (Darmstadt), Segewoldt, Segewolde, Sefelt (Darmstadt), Sefeld, Seefelt (Darmstadt), Seefeld (Darmstadt),

QUOTING:

• Nietzsche’s great-great-great-great-grandfather:
• Mattheß Nitzsche, lived in Burkau

• Nietzsche’s great-great-great-grandfather:
• Christoph Nitzsche [I.], baptized May 15, 1662, Burkau; married to Anna Grüner, daughter of Hanß Grüner

Burkau is in Lusatia and "Lusatia" is a word of Sorbian origins.

To quote you:

"It should also be noted that both Oehler and Müller did not exclude a Slavic origin of the family; however, Müller suggests Sorbian rather than Polish origin."

The usage of coats of arms in Poland was brought in by knights arriving from Silesia, LUSATIA, Meissen, and Bohemia. Migrations from here were the most frequent, and the time period is the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Again, what's German and what's Polish is not so clear the further one retreats into history. Many Polish noble/knightly families are ultimately of Germanic origin, despite the deceit and propaganda of Nazi idealogues. There was also a time when it was not clear if Bohemia and Poland were separate countries.

There is a basis to Nietzsche's story of his family fleeing religious persecution. Perhaps facts were confused, as their possible retreat from Poland was probably not made with the intention of proving anything to historians, meaning all events were not committed to writing, as they would literally be fleeing for their lives. No memory is clear as faded ink, and perhaps Nietzsche's family forgot or distorted historical events, but there is a basis to the so-called legend of Nietzsche's Polish origins.

This is what was occurring in Poland circa 1662 and the years prior, the time of Nietzsche's great-great-great-great-grandfather, and beyond:

• In Poland, Stanislaus Hosius (1504-1579), cardinal since 1561, proposed exile of all priests with Reformation ideas and expulsion of all Protestant ministers, POLISH and foreign.

• During Stefan Batory's reign (1575-1586), Catholic clergy and Jesuits began an unrelenting attack against Protestants.

• Brutal physical force was used. The Jesuits and Hosius brought mobs and students to organize persecutions, attacks, destruction of cemeteries, and murder against Protestants.

• Open impunity of all violence and depravity against Protestants was allowed. To the Jesuits every act of persecution and depravity committed against a Protestant was proof of piety. In 1611 an Italian named Franco, stating the Catholic Eucharist was idolatry, was condemned to death in Wilno and executed in the castle courtyard.

• In 1655, the Swedish King, Carolus Gustavus (Protestant) invaded Poland. During this time of devastation for Poland, the Catholic clergy accused the Protestants of having caused the disaster with their Protestant religious doctrines.

• "A wave of bloody persecution ensued and forced many Protestants to flee the country, leaving their churches and property. ..."

SEE: http://www.socinian.org/polish_socinians.html

by Marian Hillar

Also, at the Diet of Warsaw in 1658, John II Casimir re-issued a decree used to drive Hussites out of the realm in 1424. Now he applied it towards Protestants that collaborated with the enemy during the Cossack and Swedish (Protestants) wars (1648-1660). Protestant Polish Nobility went over to the side of the Swedes.

Nietzsche himself stated time and time again in writing he was Polish. If quibbling about whether the argument depends on whether he wrote "about a hundred years ago" or "over a hundred years ago" is the basis of dismissing Nietzsche's assertions he was Polish, then that's remarkably simplifying how complex genealogy can be, and it's a very one-dimensional conclusion. World War II destroyed many genealogical records in Poland, and with the Swedish Invasion of Poland (1655-1660), the situation was similar.

And, simply because Nietzsche's sister did not have the same talent for scholarship as Nietzsche does not mean there is no basis for Nietzsche's self-proclaimed Polish origins, given an inquiry into his surname and history reveals the nature of a story that's more complex than first impressions suggest.

As for this:

QUOTE:

For example, in the Colli-Montinari edition of Nietzsche’s letters, the commentary on the above quoted letter to Brandes shortly notes[20]:

• “diese von N gepflegte Legende entbehrt jeder Grundlage“
• transl.: „this legend maintained by N lacks any basis“

That statement lacks any knowledge of Polish history, heraldry, or the custom of bearing arms, which is Germanic in origin.

Yes, the following is SUGGESTIVE. Myself, I don't dismiss Nietzsche's claims he was Polish.

• "NICKI h. [herbu/coat-of-arms] Radwan descended from Mazowsze, province Płock (płockie), and derived their surname/cognomen from the name of their village (1525)." [more precise than village would be patrimony/estate]

• Nietzsche's father, Carl Ludwig (1813–1849), was a Lutheran pastor.

• "His [Nietzsche's] family on the father's side descended from Polish nobles, compelled by religious persecution to flee from their own country."

• In the wake of the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, increasing religious and social tensions resulting from seventeenth and eighteenth century wars and political allegiances began to appear in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with its strong historical ties to the Catholic Church and the presence of Jesuits established in the country.

• These disasters and wars of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries were carried into the frontiers of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by Protestants, Orthodox, and Infidels, resulting in increasing Catholic intolerance alongside the piety of Counter Reformation.

• As a result, in 1718, the last Protestant was ejected from the chamber of the Polish Sejm, to be followed in 1733, with Protestants being barred from civil office.

• "It is well known that Nietzsche did not consider the Germans a master race and that the following comment on the Poles represents his view of that people: 'The Poles I considered the most gifted and gallant among the Slavic people; and the giftedness of the Slavs seemed greater to me than that of the Germans - yes, I thought that the Germans had entered the line of gifted nations only through a strong mixture with Slavic blood.'" -- The Master Race, Pg. 284; From - Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist -- Walter Kaufmann

• "Nietzsche liked to believe - though he was probably mistaken - that his last name [Kaufmann is probably mistaken -- Nietzsche began his career as a philologist] indicated that he was himself of partly Polish decent and thus of mixed blood." -- The Master Race, Pg. 288; From - Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist -- Walter Kaufmann

Footnotes

Exxess 08:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

?

"Before going deeper into the history of Polish nobility, it is unfortunate to note use of the English word "knight," which is misleading as it leads to inevitable comparisons with the British gentry. In comparison, the Polish nobility was a "power elite" caste, not a mere social class."

Knights in Britian were demonstrably a military caste from the feudal to early modern period as well. This section should be reworded to reflect this also without the opinionated "unfortunately" and "mere". --Fire Star 火星 15:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That has been moved to Szlachta: Origins. The words "unfortunately" and "mere" were removed. -- Exxess 16:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Dostoevsky

I removed him, the source is from 1921 and D´s daughter Aimee only mentions his ancestors to have served the flag of Radwan, not D himself. ThePiedCow (talk) 22:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

You obviously know nothing regarding nobility in Eastern Europe. Read this article closely several times. In Eastern Europe the ENTIRE FAMILY BORE THE COAT OF ARMS, meaning, to make it very simple for you, Fyodor Dostoyevsky's family bore the Radwan Coat of Arms since antiquity, therefore, he was lawfully allowed to bear it, as all Dostoyevsky descendants are entitled to.

Don't impose Western heraldic practices upon Eastern European nobility. Read as many Wikipedia articles as you can regarding Eastern European nobility before making editorial deletions on a topic you're obviously extremely ill-informed about. -- Exxess (talk) 01:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)