Talk:Ragtime/Archive 1

Archive 1

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but isn't it possible that the word "ragtime" has some connection with the phrase "on the rag" (menstruation?) Dpbsmith 19:15, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Somebody (Tarquin, if I remember correctly) raised that possibility on IRC some months back. I don't know myself, but the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz doesn't mention it as a possibility. It doesn't actually suggest there's any doubt about the origin of the name at all:

The term "ragged time" came to be used in the late 19th century to describe the idiomatic syncopation characteristic of a style of popular music, predominantly for the piano, that emanated from the South and Midwest. The word "ragtime" was a corruption of this...

I don't know what other books have to say. --Camembert

James Reese Europe, Eubie Blake and Noble Sissle

No article on ragtime would be complete without mention of these three giants. I'm sorry I don't have the time to contribute to the article -- at least not right now. But someone should give these three their due.deeceevoice — Preceding undated comment added 14:46, 3 August 2004 (UTC)

What? No infobox?

Ragtime
Stylistic origins	African-American jigs and marches
Cultural origins	African-American communities
Typical instruments	Piano
Derivative forms	jazz, foxtrot
Other topics
Composers - Musicians

Most musical genres have an infobox. Is it about time we had it here? -- Smjg 17:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I've just been trying to do it. Here's what I've got so far. But we probably should improve on it before putting it in the article. I'm not sure which of the styles of ragtime should be listed in which bits of the box. -- Smjg 15:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Grammy Award?

Article says that Joshua Rifkin won a Classical Grammy for Joplin Rags in the 1970s but the Grammy pages don't show it. Does anyone object if I remove the reference here? Paul 20:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I have just found a list of nominations for Grammy awards in 1971. While its a great record, sadly Rifkin didn't win this time... I'll add the reference and change the text. Major Bloodnok 10:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 17:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Joplin article

An anon with a rotating ip has been making a series of edits to the Scott Joplin article repeatedly putting in such questionable assertions as calling Joplin "the founder of ragtime" and describing his music as "jazz". I've reverted and tried explaining on the article talk page, but I fear I'm starting to lose patience. Assuming good faith from the anon editor, I don't wish to look like I'm getting in a revert war with them. So I'd appreciate it if some other editors interested in ragtime could eye the Scott Joplin article and perhaps comment on any of the points of dispute on the talk page. Thanks, -- Infrogmation 15:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Image in the way

The "Maple Leaf" image is overlapping a bit of the article text in my browser (Safari). Is there any way to fix this? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.231.55 (talk) 18:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

1st song with "rag time" in title

Does anyone know what the first song recorded was to use the word "ragtime" or "rag time" in its title, and who the performer was? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.104.238 (talk) 18:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

ragtime outside the United States?

So far I know that the Cuban pianist and composer Ignacio Cervantes had written a number of 41 cuban contradanzas, in which number 2 has a really close similarity to the ragtime style in rhythm (source: 101 montunos by Rebeca mauleon) . Although i have not come even close to any of these songs being performed nor the scores of it (except for the fragment which is shown on the book) i am unable to determine if ragtime had an influence on some of the musical styles outside the united States to be able to blend with afro-caribben music. Any verification or more information on this would be gladly apreciated. 70.121.124.110 16:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

the massive popularity of ragtime in Britain after 1911 deserves a paragraphJohncmullen1960 (talk) 07:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Form in Joplin

Hey Folks, - I just picked up a disc of Joplin tunes, and I've noticed some structural similarities between the tracks. I mean more than just "Sonata Form." Certain devices or types of variation seem to be used frequently. But I'm not a music guru; that's why I checked out this page. Would it be possible to get more detail? Thanks! --Cladist July 20 2004

it was started by combing West Indian rhythms to European song structure...can some please look it up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.128.199 (talk) 03:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Quotation

The quotation at the end is well meant but should be folded into the article. I don't think we need all of it either. Major Bloodnok (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the long quotation. I was going to use it as a critical appraisal of Ragtime, but given it is from a novel (albeit one in which Ragtime appears to be a major plot point) I don't feel it could be used as such. For this article it is not notable enough to be included (WP:N), although if other editors with better understanding and knowledge of the topic think otherwise I'm willing to concede the point, although it should not be in the form of a long block quote. There are other and better sources out there which can give a more thorough appraisal of Ragtime. Major Bloodnok (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sound files needed

Why not to put audio files in the article too? I see that they are in the corresponding articles, but it'd be useful if they also were put in here. People wouldn't need to leave this page to go listen to music in the articles about each song mentioned here (The Entertainer, Maple Leaf Rag etc.)-Betty kerner (talk) 22:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

A good idea. When I get a chance, I'll do it (unless anyone else gets there first). Major Bloodnok (talk) 22:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary Ragtime Composers Cited

I'm a nubie to the wonderful world of Wiki - but not to ragtime. I'm wondering why your short list of contemporary ragtime composers does not include Reginald R. Robinson? He's as prolific, perhaps more so than the names mentioned. He's as critically acclaimed as those cited (winner of the prestigious John D. & Catherine T. MacArthur Fellowship "Genius Grant" award) and he's a signed recording artist. What more would qualify you for this short list? March 2006 (watkino)

I Love Ragtime,

You really think the John D. & Catherine T. MacArthur Fellowship is prestigious? Well known, but a lot of really mediocre people who are simply good at grant writing (or have a good agent) have gotten that fellowship. Except for the cash I don't know of anyone who takes it seriously anymore. Gingermint (talk) 03:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Ragtime Form

The most standard ragtime form is not listed in the article: A march form, which is AABBACCDD. I have a book of all Joplin's rags and have yet to find one in the form of AABBACCC′, or AABBCCA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.49.58 (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

This article should surely mention Max Morath, who about 1960 was a major factor in revived interest in ragtime. I believe he taught at the University of Utah? and did a series on ragtime for PBS or whatever the public TV group was at that time. Gomberg 17:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

==Etymo]], if I remember correctly) raised that possibility on IRC some months back. I don't know myself, but the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz doesn't mention it as a possibility. It doesn't actually suggest there's any doubt about the origin of the name at all:

The term "ragged time" came to be used in the late 19th century to describe the idiomatic syncopation characteristic of a style of popular music, predominantly for the piano, that emanated from the South and Midwest. The word "ragtime" was a corruption of this...

I don't know what other books have to say. --Camembert

Since we have a verifiable reference here for the etymology of the word, why include the other speculative references unless there is some historical basis for them? Just because something seems logical doesn't mean that it is factual. I am going to change the article to reflect this etymology alone. If anyone can verify another theory that's fine.Classicragger 03:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ragtime is just perhaps the one great frist real american music which to this day does still continue to influence all really grest music with few excetions before or after there were a very few influences before ragtime! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eleventhdr (talk • contribs) 16:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Just as a point of correction, it is generally incorrect to refer to morphological development as "corruption." The first rule of language is that language changes, and there are usually specific pressures for these changes. --71.56.135.27 (talk) 22:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Over the years I have read various origins for the word "Ragtime" and have heard many, many others. I've re-written the sentence in the article so that it does not state absolutely but rather suggests. This is the only honest way of dealing with the etymology until there is better research for this page. Gingermint (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure the article needs amending, because it's good as it is, but here is a passage from the American Musician and Art Journal of Dec. 13, 1907 (an interview with Scott Joplin):

"Why do you call it ragtime?"..."Oh!", replied Joplin, "because it has such a ragged movement. It suggests something like that".Willowmusic (talk) 09:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The lead

Wikipedia:LEAD states that the lead should summarise the rest of the article, whereas here it is given over to the musical structure of rags. I'll take a first pass at moving the text around. Major Bloodnok (talk) 12:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Added some more to the Lead. I appreciate that I'm leaning heavily on Blesh, but that's the only source I've got. I'll take a look at adding & expanding on the information included in the lead when I get a chance (unless anyone else wishes to do so before I can!)

I'd like to focus more on the form of the Rag plus its influence Major Bloodnok (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Currently the lead doesn't read as being encyclopedic; for example: "original musical genre" is somewhat redundant since genres are delineations of type (thus each are "original"); and, "...enjoyed its peak..." is anthropomorphic since genres can't "enjoy" anything (maybe "reached a peak"?). Also, in context with the rest of the article, I don't believe ragtime reached it's "peak of popularity" at that time; rather, it was the most prolific period. Wasn't it more "popular" (in terms of sales, etc.) during some of the revivals? ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 11:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Changed Ernest Hogan from being "that" to being "who"; (he is a person). [I'm going to stop reading; not enough time to nitpick the entire article.] ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 13:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Tom Brier

This article should include something about Tom Brier. 85.18.123.206 (talk) 14:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Ragtime Revivals suggestion

I was wondering if something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GD6odp2biQ would be of interest under the revival section? MrMidi (talk) 20:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Why? What's special about that video? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Re-write of section on Continental composers

I re-worded the section flagged with really bad prose. I think it was an auto-translation of the Italian. Take a look and see if this flag can be removed. The section is still greatly lacking in in-text citation and sources. (I also slightly reorganized and reordered the sections (plural) on composers.) Cathalwoods (talk) 06:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Section needs references ASAP. HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Research

This is a fairly good article but it needs a lot more research. I'm not happy with the scant amount of citations or their quality. For instance, "New Grove" dictionaries are a nice place to begin but they are not always very correct and this is why few professionals use them in their research. Gingermint (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Since The Grove is written by professionals and is probably the number one quick-reference on music in the English-speaking world, and you personally have no possible way to know what the majority of "professionals" do, one has to wonder what you are babbling on about? The issue with using The Grove or any other tertiary source is that Wiki strives to use Reliable, secondary Sources.HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:04, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Ragtime and Brahms

Brahms is mentioned twice. First, is Brahms known of his waltzes? I really don't think so. Secondly, how Brahms can be influenced by Ragtime if he died (in Europe) around the same time when ragtime was about to born? --128.214.205.63 (talk) 14:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

True, although the information I had comes from Blesh's introduction to the Complete Works. Someone else with more knowledge of this should take a look. Major Bloodnok (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

EDIT. I've just taken another look at the source. I think I can add some clarity to this; the first mentioning of Brahms compares Joplin's work to other composers' output favourably. The impact on Brahms' work itself is less clear, although Blesh cites a biography of Brahms from 1933 and claims that the composer had "envisioned a ragtime project just before his death". I think on reflection this is quite a slim claim to significance, so I'll remove the reference in the article. Major Bloodnok (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Brahms never heard Ragtime music. It had yet to make its appearance in Vienna, and when it was in its infancy, Brahms was living in a very inward-looking state of mind. His last music (the organ Chorales) pretty much sum things up. The statement about his Waltzes seemingly having some sort of cross-Atlantic unconscious psycho-connection is pretty much something that a (very) few musicologists are writing about themselves, not Brahms. Even one of Beethoven's late piano sonatas has a passage uncannily resembling American Jazz from the late 50's-early 60's, but that's just the coincidence of a master musician expanding and exploring in many different sound-forms. I think such references should be removed, since they have zero factual basis on anything Brahms said, or his contemporaries said that he said.HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:14, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Removal of referenced information, insertion of POV

An anonymous editor keeps deleting large sections of this article, removing lots of referenced information and inserting what appears to be POV material. I don't really edit this article that much. Could some other editors check out these edits and let us know their opinion. In addition, it would be helpful if the anonymous editor would state on this talk page why they are making these edits, and what's specifically wrong about the referenced information being removed. Until such an explanation is provided I'll simply keep reverting the edits. Thanks. --SouthernNights (talk) 23:14, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

What about the guitar?

This article is all based upon the piano, but you can play ragtime on the guitar as well, it's done by fingerpicking, I only dabble in this, but I was thinking- how many ragtime guitarists are there out there, I think we should make a little section on it in this article. --Mikeoman 23:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, why not? I guess you'll start w/Stefan Grossman, right? Lessee: Duck Baker? Who else? +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni De Chiaro has transcribed all of Joplin's piano works to solo guitar. Although I'm a pianist and don't play guitar, his transcriptions are so good that I think some of the pieces actually sound better as guitar music than piano music. Both the sheet music and his recordings are available.--Classicragger 17:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Right- I know it's a big old subject there's tonnes of books on it, all of which I don't have right now, however I do dabble in ragtime although i am not expert in it- therefore I will add a brief section to this article- at one point in the future we can expand it but for the meantime, I will add what I know to the article- now are there any other notable ragtime guitarists we can add in, I've seen Grossman's books- they're good.--Mikeoman 22:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I noted the undo and reflecting on it I kinda agree, if we're gonna do it- do it right, we need a good strong section, not one with a that gradually snowballs- so you have my apologies. is it better therefore to have an article with more things such as the history of ragtime guitar and a quintessant time line full of notable guitarists- I only know a few, also do we need to have lots of information on the physical technique of ragtime guitar such as strumming patterns, fingerpicking, chord progressions and so forth?--Mikeoman 20:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This whole article is weak on history. Ragtime music predates the 1897-1918 heyday of popular commercial piano ragtime by at least two decades. The earliest rags were folk rags, being played on banjo and guitar. And the most common form of most banjo/guitar rags is quite different from the "classic piano rag" form promoted by Joplin, and which most people seem to now regard as the main ragtime form. Not only does this article need a "guitar" section, it needs a rewrite of the history and background to reflect the place of these early string rags (banjo/guitar/fiddle) in the history and development of the form. The incorporation of march elements into ragtime form, while important, was a relatively late development in the style.

Furthermore, if someone is going to add a guitar section, I'd suggest a careful look into the history of guitar rags. Plenty of modern players play transcriptions of piano rags on the guitar, but there is a whole literature of rags written specifically for the guitar out there.

The names of a lot of the earliest ragtime banjoists and guitarists are lost to us. There was no recording back then, and very little of what they wrote was published while they were alive, getting passed on primarily by ear. What little of it got transcribed to paper only got set down decades later. Still, one could go back at least to Vess Ossman -- who lived through the ragtime era and was one of its earliest recording artists (on banjo) -- Blind Blake, in the 20s, Bilnd Boy Fuller, and the Rev. Gary Davis. The Piedmont ragtime guitarists also deserve mention, seeing as how they were an early influence on Merle Travis, who developed the style of fingerpicking that forms the basis for most modern ragtime guitar playing.

Modern (relatively) ragtime guitarists would certainly include Stephan Grossman, but also: David Laibman; Eric Schoenberg; Happy Traum; Ton van Bergeyk; Peter Finger; Leo Wijnkamp; Duck Baker; Lasse Johansson; Dale Miller; Jorma Kaukonen, and others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd be very wary of this. The guitar contingent is always threatening to engulf every musical topic at Wikipedia. Although certain strands of banjo music were apparently among the historical antecedents of ragtime, that doesn't make these strands ragtime themselves, and, anyway, the banjo is not a guitar. Bear in mind as well that the steel-string guitar (if this is what is meant by "guitar", as I suspect it is for a significant faction of the enthusiasts) scarcely existed during the ragtime period. It's possible that ragtime was played at the time on the (gut-string) guitar, but there is little or no evidence of this. Certainly transcriptions for guitar of ragtime music eventually appeared in subsequent decades, and newly-composed pieces modeled on these transcriptions appeared as well, but the emphasis of the article should be on ragtime in its historical period. We might mention guitar transcriptions in connection with ragtime revivals, but if we do we should be careful not to give them undue weight. The problem is that once we start discussing the guitar, we're likely to be overrun by the guitar army. TheScotch (talk) 10:44, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Novelty piano isn't ragtime

It's a common mistake to consider novelty piano "ragtime". It was inspired by ragtime—but with its relative lack of syncopation (ragtime's defining characteristic), and complex melodies and phrasing more reflective of classical music, it was tailored for white audiences to whose ears ragtime seemed too primitive. Composed and performed by white musicians, and associated with more elegant settings, it served as a transitional style that conditioned white sensibilities prior to the widespread popularity of early jazz. Its contrasts with ragtime are what define it and its place in American music history. Perhaps this should be explained. (I haven't presumed to make any changes myself.) – AndyFielding (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Is Ragtime from the Southern US, The Midwest, or both?

There seems to be a big debate on whether ragtime is from the South or the Midwest. Should we put both, neither, the Midwest, or the South as where it came from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B3E1:3E30:4480:F50:FD07:3EDB (talk) 06:25, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Emergence

Fruitloop11 Try not to rv without bringing it to the Talk Page first. First of all, this is not a reliable source; it is original research based on a Sheet Music cover. Second, the word "rag baby" is not representation of this article: it refers literally to a "rag doll". The first time "rag time" was seen in print was in the song "Oh, I Don't Know, You're Not So Warm" sung by Bert Williams (1896). You are misunderstanding the word "emergence" in this section: they specifically are referring to the printing of "Ragtime Works for the Piano". Not sheet music with the word "rag" in them. I am contesting this contribution based on WP:OR and you will need consensus here and/or provide another reliable source to back up your claim. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

What you said is original research. Do you have any proof Charlie Reed wasn't referring to ragtime? Look at the actual music sheet and the lyrics. It's very much an 1887 ragtime song.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 22:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Hardly. I do not need to supply proof that Reed wasn't referring to ragtime. It is your job to support your claim by supplying reliable sources. Not the other way around. My sources: Rag Baby DefinitionRag Baby = Rag Doll. Origins of Ragtime The first known usage of the word “Rag” in popular can be traced to two Coon Songs, both written by African-American men. Ernest Hogan’s 1896 song “All Coons Look A Like To Me” contains the first reference of stylization to the form of Rag, while Bert Williams song “Oh, I Don’t Know, You’re So Warm!,” uses the word in lyrics from 1896. Tom Turpin published the first rag in 1897. Yet you seem to have discovered after 100 years of research that this song, written in 1887 (some 10 years prior) is the first ragtime song that had "rag" on the cover? Where are the reliable sources to back up this remarkable find? It must be written someplace that this is the first "emergence" proof of the word "rag" referring to "Ragtime"; which didn't come onto the scene for another 10 years. Maineartists (talk) 23:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

BTW, to what "lyrics" are you referring? I would like to read them in their entirety. Am I missing something in your link? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Super Mario World

Would pieces from the game Super Mario World be considered rags (I'm thinking of the Athletic Theme and of the Overworld Theme)? If so, I think it would be good information to add to the 'Revival' section (links here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INC0Qu4fzlc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjwhX0WqxXQ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditWorker (talk • contribs) 01:20, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Just for the heck of discussion . . .

What about some ragtime music being very similar to extended and multiple vamps?

And what about a relationship to disco?

Any possibility that any of this could make it into the article?

Just a thought for discussion. 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 22:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)