Talk:Rain (entertainer)

Fixes

I did some minor fixes, added a section called 'Name' and pasted some of biography to that section. Still, this page needs a LOT of cleaning up.

Neutrality Despute

I added a npov warning on the main page.

Thats been removed.Kairos 01:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow! A mess!

This article reads like the end result of one foreigner's afternoon with the AltaVista Babelfish translator. I tried. I really, really tried to help. But sentences like "Rain discovered his passion for dancing ever since he was in the 6th grade" have convinced me that this article is just doomed.

What a mess!

I'm halfway through cleaning up the biography, but that's just to remove the superlatives and for readability. A little organisation could go a long way with this page...

The award section needs to be looked over. For example, I know he won KBS best couple award with Song hye kyo in 2004. I think there are a few others missing awards or incorrect year. Someone needs to fact check all of it (someone who can read Korean).

True.

Yeah. I come to clean it time to time, but there are so many to fix. One of the biggest problem is Rain is largely Asian based and you can't get that many English citations.

Cleanup

People have cleaned this up, which is surprising, but appreciated. However, two things. First, as his stage name is Rain, and as he is popularly known by that term, he should be referenced as "Rain" in the article. Right now, he's mentioned by his full name in the article. Second, that news section either has to be integrated or deleted, cuz it's just too large and trivial at this point. I'll start the naming... SKS2K6 19:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit:Sorry, I have to add this: there are NO REFERENCES anywhere in the article. And there are many points where references are needed, from his supposedly fast ticket sales to his desire for dance to his duets.... The only fact that is partially referenced is his 3rd album sales numbers, which needs a direct reference. SKS2K6 19:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Heya, I went through the other day and re-organised the page, deleted some useless stuff, and added in references. I think there should be a better way to organise the different spellings of his name, though. Oncamera 03:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Where'd his picture go?

I could swear he had one when I first saw this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metatron's Cube (talk • contribs) 20:56, March 11, 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted because it either wasn't a free image or it didn't have a source/image tag included. So that's why it's gone. If someone could find a free image of him, then they should upload it. oncamera^(t) 09:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalisms.

Lots of Lots of Lots of vandalisms related to Korean articles. Hey, it's not our fault that people died in Virginia Tech... If the gunman waited just a few months more, he would have gotten the American citizenship. Why is it Korea's fault? I don't even understand it. That gunman came to America when he was eight years old. Obviously, he does not necessarily have the same mind as most Koreans. (no offense to any race, the earth is one). Polleo 23:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My name rhymes with Pollio for a good reason (I don't have it though). Polleo 23:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Time Magazine votes

Although I do agree that the vote is slanted, and I do feel that Rain's fanbase just voted for him repeatedly until he got first, I feel that such a statement should not be included in this Wikipedia article. First, there is no proof. The only link is for the blog comments, which are simply comments, not facts. Second, this is non-neutral. Since there is no proof, it is merely one's opinion. The fact that Rain got first and was not included in the article is factual. The "fact" that the vote was slanted is actually not fact. This is why I keep removing the statement from the article. Plus, there are so many comments on that page that it takes forever to look at them, and it's basically equivalent to linking to a forum, which Wikipedia does not really allow. SKS2K6 01:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert parody?

Would it be o.k. to mention that Rain was parodied by Stephen Colbert under the fame in the United States section? Is it considerable enough to note?

Sure. I was thinking of adding it, but it would be hard to source, seeing as if the only source is a youtube clip, which has no copyright info. Since it's tied to the whole Time 100 vote thing...I suppose it's notable.SKS2K6 06:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I noticed it was added already. Here is a useful link on this subject :Stephen Colbert Debuts as Korean Singer

There is no need for youtube when there is an official site.Comedy Central. I think it is an important subject as it does influeces Rain's carear in the U.S.

Ron64 09:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Can anyone help with citing the page? Needs lots of references, but most are either in Korean or Chinese, and they're all in gossip news. Are these citations allowed? And the picture, too. Please update picture..maybe one of his world tour concerts or when he's wearing a suit.

SHUT UP! IM BORED ALREADY!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.63.229.66 (talk) 18:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Influential People

Is there any particular reason Time named him one of the most influential people? It's not really made clear in the article, and the only real place it's mentioned is at the top in that little paragraph. I'm not saying he has no reason to be given such a title, but the article doesn't really show how he is "influential" other than having a whole crapload of musical hits and whatnot. 69.124.142.33 02:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Time's listing of the world's most "influential people", is not limited to those who have had a particularly beneficial impact in today's world. Although Time's list consists mostly of major philanthrophists, prominent scientists, politicians (mostly American), and the such, there are a good deal of entertainers and athletes that are listed also (with little global "influence"). Anyways, the rational for Rain being on the list is probably more reasonable than some other characters on Time's list (Michelle Wie?). At the peak of his popularity, Rain was arguably the most popular figure in Eastern and Southeastern Asia, and thus his "influence" on a vast portion of the "world's" pop culture could be said to be profound.

Korea, being one of the most wired countries in the world, can easily stuff electronic ballot boxes. Once someone gets wind of a survey in which a Korean is involved, the word goes out, usually with the Korean phrase "Let's show the world our power," and a legion of Korean fans will work to bounce their choice up the chart. In this case, though, they had a bit of competition from the Thais. Here's a report from in the middle of the fray. http://partypooper.blogs.com/partypooper/2007/04/knetizen_comeup.html Kkachi 05:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Kkachi

Time didn't name Rain as one of the world's "Most Influential People" in 2007. In 2007, Rain was "voted" by fans, and reached number 1 in Time's POLL of the most influential people (probably a result of giddy fans voting repeatedly). The actual magazine did not include Rain on the list. It was the year before that, around the time of his Rainy Day Tour that he actually made the magazine got him on the list. Read the article at time.com if you want to know why this was. Chiaren

Please see response below under "Importance" (Seems like these two topics could be merged since "Importance" and "Influence" deal with the same thing.)isilvalie (talk) 00:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)isilvalie

Birth Place

I'm pretty sure he was not born in Seoul. I think Seosan, Choongnam is correct. However, like this mess of an article, I can't provide a sitation. Did he try to write this article himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krazykimchi (talk • contribs) 03:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Importance

So why's this guy so influential? Is it ballot stuffing, or is some foreign pop-star really more influential then everyone else in the world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2k6168 (talk • contribs) 03:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

In short, the Korean Wave includes several artists who are considered leaders of the movement. Rain is considered one of them because of his goal in becoming world-renown. The ballot box stuffing isn't the reason for his notability. I don't think he's as popular in the west as for example Hiromi Go back in the 1970s or Seiko Matsuda during the 1980s. But the fans are ten-times worse than Apple fanboys; it is probably linked to the country being the top or 2nd from the top of Internet-savvy people in this world. These fans make Barack Obama's fan look like tourist agents for Antarctica. South Korean artists are IMHO the most motivated group of people you will ever see on planet Earth. Where people like Rain get this motivation - I'd sure like to know. People in other Asian countries aren't as animate about the world recognizing them as the Koreans. Groink (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It's both, really. My theory is that the influence, so to speak, is a direct product of ballot stuffing. Rain has a fairly large fanbase to begin with among Koreans, other Asians and what have you. When they heard that Time Magazine was holding an online poll, Rain fans just rushed to the site and stuffed the ballots. Since pretty much every American and his/her mom has heard of Time Magazine, it caught the attention of Stephen Colbert & co., who blew up the whole thing into unimaginable proportions. Once his name got circulated, it reached the ears of movie producers, and whoever else decides to hire Rain for something. Again, this isn't a hard, factual thing, but merely my theory based on what went on. Pandacomics (talk) 04:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Actually, Rain has sold over 3,000,000 albums throughout Asia and his last concert tour had over 250,000 attendees (performances in the US and Australia as well as a number of Asian countries). His second career as actor has perhaps brought him even more fame than his career as singer. I have seen some very fine acting from him in his native language - a terrific, at times emotionally raw performance in the TV drama series A Love to Kill. Rain could have had a wealthy and cushy life staying in Asia, but took on the challenge and career risk of a leading role in English in the Wachowski/Silver/McTeigue movie Ninja Assassin (to be released late summer or fall 2009). I am interested to see how he will fare. His fans are motivated by respect for his extreme hard work (Susan Sarandon said she had to kidnap him and take him out for dessert to get him to stop working), admiration for his perserverance/determination in the face of hardship/setbacks, and empathy because of the rejection and poverty he experienced in the past. His fans are particularly supportive and quick to jump to his defense for these reasons. It's not just about looks or talent, but about qualities of character and a compelling life story. isilvalie (talk) 06:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Weird he would be named 'important', when he so obviously isn't. John Lennon, Bono etc; these were important musicians who made a difference in the World, not this corporate muppet. (typical unsigned nasty post that prompted my response below)

Rain’s influence and importance stems from the fact that off stage he is quite different from his onstage persona and he represents something to many people world-wide: diligence, perseverance, willingness to risk failure in pursuit of goals, ability to overcome adversity through persistence and hard work, positive attitude, kindness, philanthropy. People have supported him in Time 100 poll even more for his qualities of character than for his career. Told he was ugly and rejected in 18 auditions before he was given a chance, many people have been inspired by him to try to overcome their own limitations and pursue their personal goals. When he has encountered setbacks, he has picked himself up and tried even harder. Rain has built wells in Cambodia and Mongolia, built playgrounds for children, donated concert proceeds to support children orphaned by AIDS, donated funds for cleanup and personally scrubbed oil on the coast at Taean, was spokesperson for MTVs anti-human trafficking campaign, participated in a campaign to find adoptive parents for abandoned children, has paid medical bills for terminally ill patients, has paid for eye operations to have vision restored, has donated to a number of charity auctions, and a couple of days ago performed at Jackie Chan’s charity concert on May 1st in Beijing Olympic stadium (Rain With Jackie Chan Onstage, Support Orphans of AIDS Campaign, Oil Spill Cleanup, Korean President’s Commendation for Saving and Philanthropy, Spokesperson in Film Against Human Traficking, Photo Exhibit to Help Find Adoptive Parents, Because of his example, people have donated to charities in his name. Examples: Recent Donation by Fans to Foster Home, U.S. Fans Donate to Oil Spill Clean Up, Rain’s Chinese Fans Donation of Hematopoietic Stem Cells(scroll down to article) That many people find Rain inspirational and that people from many countries have posted YouTube support videos are statements of fact that can be verified by links to their videos or statements. But I am still not quite clear what is acceptable or unacceptable to say about it. It is a fact that we are not allowed to mention? I was merely responding to the soapbox statements of others that had a negative bent with an opposing positive viewpoint. Anyway, the point is well taken that we shouldn't discuss Rain's merits or lack of them here. No further discussion from me. Is it OK, though, to insult people or nationalities as was done in the comment below? isilvalie (talk) 00:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)isilvalie

Let's be honest here. It is radical fanatics like talk who can write a 300-page dissertation on "Why I love Rain," but never answer the issue directly. One of my professors used to call this B.O.S., or "bunch of sh*t," where someone would write pages of material without actually understanding the question. Re-read several times what Isilvalie wrote above. In short, it sounds cold. What it sounds like to the rest of us outsiders is someone who's trying to BUY (yes, BUY) his way into people loving him. The anonymous poster earlier mentioned Bono and John Lennon. I'll even throw in the names of Michael Jackson, Bob Geldof, and Elton John. These are people who spent DECADES supporting various causes. Isivalie's explanation looks like an Ivy League political science student who's trying to fill out a resume, hoping that people will love him later on when he need to "cash in" on the love. Well, he may have captured Isivalie's heart, but let's understand something here... Like religion, the Koreans are trying to SELL their people, and make them out to be equals with people who REALLY earned the status of being IMPORTANT in this world. Most of us can see through all of this. Rain introduced himself to the world in 2002. In seven years, do you expect the world to allow Rain to stand on the same stage as Bob Dylan, Muhammad Ali, and Jim Henson? Rain must earn his way into this same group of people - not just because of the things he's done over seven years. He must spend DECADES of hard work in his causes before anyone will accept him as important. As of right now, the only thing us outsiders see of him is not him - but his radical fanbase. I don't think Isilvalie will ever grasp the logic behind what I've just said here. Groink (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Reorganization

I have a lot to learn about editing here so plan to spend quite a bit of time in the style guides and sandbox first, but I want to reorganize the information on this page (the info jumps back and forth in chronological order in a confusing way), update old info (a few obsolete things and new info that pertains to topics already here), also there is a new album release scheduled for next month plus a number of performances, negotiations for a new Korean drama which may or may not come to fruition, a possible change in the Ninja Assassin release date - just things to track and add as soon as they can be confirmed by official announcements. I may get permission from Jtune to post some pictures that can be used for informational but non-commercial purposes. Since I see the requirement that "You irrevocably agree to release your contributions under the terms of the GFDL*" I don't know if use of these images is permitted here (whether the images can have a more restrictive license than the text of the article). From what I read it seems as though one can choose from a menu of licenses and attach a particular one to a posted image but advice from someone who is a more experienced editor would be appreciated. I will discuss any major changes here before making them to the article in order to give anyone who has an interest in this article a chance to weigh in first. Thanks for all the previous work that has been done here. Isilvalie (talk) 06:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree that there needs to be a major revamp on this page, such as putting the events in chronological order and adjusting the topics, and Rain's new album Rainism, which was deemed inappropriate for people under 19 years old. Mydoctor93 (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Suit

The Seoul Times of this week-end has an article entitled "U.S. Court Orders S. Korean Pop Star to Pay $8 Million" about his canceled Hawaii concert. I don't know if it's note-worthy enough to put into the article. Kdammers (talk) 01:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

For the legal section, yeah, definitely. As long as you have a link to the original and all. Pandacomics (talk) 01:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Who the heck is Bi Rain?

Why was this article moved to "Bi Rain" without any discussion? Disambiguous name spaces is NOT a problem on Wikipedia. The person going through the move requests should know better. What you just did is name the article "Rain Rain", since "bi" in Korean means "rain". Please move the article back to its previous name space. Groink (talk) 06:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You may want to look at Rain (entertainer) beside "Also known as: Bi Rain" EunSoo (talk) 07:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Dude, it was YOU who changed it to "Bi Rain". Re-check your edits at this link. Groink (talk) 07:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I noticed it my bad. I won't be afraid to point out my mistakes. Biane! I just checked in his forums it's Bi Rain, mostly Rain Bi though. So it is either or. I out in a request for it to be Rain (Bi), so that his stage name comes first. EunSoo (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move page, per discussion below. GTBacchus^(talk) 20:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Rain (entertainer) → Rain (Bi) —

• Rain (Bi) is a better fit and does not cause disruption as a disambigious title. We already know they are entertainers but what kind of entertainers and also do we place (entertainer) beside actors as well. EunSoo (talk) 05:45, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. "(entertainer)" is more in style with how we normally disambiguate. "Rain (entertainer)" does not cause disruption as per the nom, indeed having this article at "Rain (Bi)" would cause more problems due to the very unusual disambiguation. The rest of the nom's reasoning does not address this article directly so is of little relevance, but in reply I believe we normally use "(actor)" when it is neccessary to disambiguate. Dpmuk (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, per Dpmuk - Okay that is based on your idea but that doesn't mean that an editor can't change it to Rain (kpop artist) or Rain (music artist) just because it is instyle now doesn't mean that it can't be changed. indeed having this article at "Rain (Bi)" would cause more problems due to the very unusual disambiguation. That in itself makes no sense either for example Dora has titles that don't match the primary topic "Dora". And Rain is before Bi "Rain (Bi)" So it is a better title than Rain (entertainer) which is again a very general title. The article titles policy say you should be as precise as possible, well that isn'tbeing precise. but in reply I believe we normally use "(actor)" when it is neccessary to disambiguate. That's what I am saying an actor is a person who can acts, an entertainer can be a musician, an actor, a tv host, a jester, a comedian and etc. It's best to just cut it down to the artists name and leave their job titles as a last resort. EunSoo (talk) 13:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: The performer's stage name, the name by which he is primarily known, is, in English, simply Rain. This is the name used everywhere on his official website. And (entertainer) is the usual disambiguation for performers who are known for their work in more than one medium.--ShelfSkewed Talk 14:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, per Shelfskewed - The performer's stage name is Rain, not Rain (entertainer). Rain (Bi) has no problems and again their job titles should be used if there are no other alternatives. Also everyone calls his "Bi" as well so should we just disregard that. And (entertainer) is the usual disambiguation for performers who are known for their work in more than one medium. I don't know how man times I have to explain myself but again is there a rule that says entertainer is required for all performers??EunSoo (talk) 14:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is simply not how disambiguation in WP works. WP:Disambiguation reads:

For disambiguating specific topic pages by using an unambiguous article title, several options are available:

1. When there is another term or more complete name (such as Delta rocket instead of Delta) that is equally clear and unambiguous, that may be used.

2. A disambiguating word or phrase can be added in parentheses. The word or phrase in parentheses should be:

* the generic class (avoiding proper nouns, as much as possible) that includes the topic, as in Mercury (element), Seal (mammal); or

* the subject or context to which the topic applies, as in Union (set theory), Inflation (economics).

3. Rarely, an adjective describing the topic can be used, but it is usually better to rephrase such a title to avoid parentheses.

4. With place-names, if the disambiguating term is a higher-level administrative division, it is often separated using a comma instead of parentheses, as in Windsor, Berkshire. See Naming conventions (geographic names).

Also, when I read the proposed Rain_(Bi) title, I read it as the title for a page discussing the bisexual Rain, as opposed to the Rain of some other sexual orientation. --Atemperman (talk) 15:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, per Atemperman - I suggest re-thinking your post as you are referring to disambiguation which is not what this is about. I am referring to changing Rain (entertainer) because it uses entertainer as a general wording. Oh I am tired of explaining. Just please read my previous comments. Thanks. And how did you arrive at (Bi) being bisexual?? I won't even ask.

1. Rain (first primary name)
2. Bi (second primary name)

EunSoo (talk) 16:08, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: Again, Bi (pronounced like the letter "B") is only used in Korean. "Bi" would confuse people because as people said, this could refer to sexual orientation, because when people see letters B & I they think bi-sexual, not bee. As people said above, Rain is his stage name in English. As a disambiguating term is required, "entertainer" is the best term. I don't see why the suggested name is better, especially since people will not be searching for "bi rain" or "rain bi". SKS (talk) 17:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Again you don't understand. Okay Rain is still in Rain (Bi) thus you get 2 in 1 Rain and Bi. If you think it's bisexual then your mind is obviously on the wrong track, especially when you have a disambiguation page for Bi. Bi is his second popular name and job titles should be used as a last resort. I can't stress that enough. It's not like there aren't any other choices for him to have an appropriate title. EunSoo (talk) 17:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

My mind is on the wrong track?? In English, "bi" is short for bisexual. It's not my fault that Rain's secondary name in Korean happens to be spelled the same way as a word that is short for "bisexual" in English. Your logic seems to presume that a reader already knows that Rain has the secondary name "Bi", and thus won't read "Bi" to be short for "bisexual". This strikes me as far from assured.

And no matter how you wish WP page titles were interpreted, it is simply fact that in WP, "Subject_(something)" means "Subject (some disambiguating specification)". If you don't like this, bring it up at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions. And the idea that job titles should be used as a last resort runs counter to standard WP practice, as per what I quoted above. If you disagree with this practice, take it up at WP:Disambiguation. --Atemperman (talk) 21:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Naming_the_specific_topic_articles this request inappropriately suggests removing/changing a word/phrase in parenthesis used for the disambiguation of an article title that could potentially refer to several subjects. NickCT (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
• Obviously, Oppose. In English Wikipedia, there are countless people and things named Rain, and this Rain happens to be the entertainer (actor, singer, etc.) That's why it's Rain (entertainer). Unless you'd like him to be Rain, the Bi. Pandacomics (talk) 00:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - Entertainer is still not an appropriate title as it is a general word. Wikipedia says to be precise and entertainer is not being precise. What kind of entertainer is he?? Again job titles should be a last resort. And if you think about it if it wasn't for the previous post then you would never have thought that Bi is short for bisexual and also it is your perception of the title. Again I strongly believe that it is best to use Rain (Bi) because he goes by both names. Rain (entertainer) is still considered quite a general terminology for someone who is a music artist.

1. Rain is his first most popular title
2. Bi is his second most popular title
3. By using these 2 titles you are giving the article a unique name, differentiating it from others.
4. Entertainer is a general word for a musicial artist
5. "Bi" is pronounced "B" and not "By"
6. Wikipedia wouldn't accept an article that has a bisexual name next to the article name.
7. Yes editors go by the rules of Wikipedia but that doesn't mean that you can't make changes or add to those rules.

Another prime example of what I am talking about in terms of job titling - Prince (musician), yet Rain is Rain (entertainer)??

EunSoo (talk) 03:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Prince sings, but he writes and composes music too. That's why he is labelled a musician. Rain sings, but he dances and acts too. He isn't a musician, because he doesn't work only with music. He isn't an actor, because he sings too. He isn't a dancer, because he sings and acts too. But he does entertain. That is why he is labelled an entertainer. I really don't know how else to make this as concise as humanly possible. Pandacomics (talk) 04:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense, hasn't Prince done movies. Prince has act in films before I am pretty sure. And doesn't Wikipedia go by what they mainly do. There are actors that sing, dance and etc but they are title (actor) here on Wikipedia. So what you just stated doesn't comply. According to Imdb Prince is a writer, actor producer and director??? EunSoo (talk) 04:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, in that case you can very well make a case that Prince (musician) should be moved to Prince (entertainer). But Rain's work is pretty equally distributed among his acting stuff (Full House, A Love to Kill, Ninja Assassin, Speed Racer) and his singing stuff (4-5 albums). Prince, on the other hand, produced far more music than he did films. Because Rain's work is equally distributed, do we pin him as an actor? If we do, we ignore his music exploits. Do we call him a musician? If we do, that pretty much diminishes his acting work. For Prince, on the other hand, do we call him a musician? Sure. He released nearly 6 times the number of albums as he directed movies. Do we call him a director? Well, again, the album count. Could we call him an entertainer? Sure. He directed a couple of movies. So, what I stated complies just fine. Pandacomics (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Eh? Again what you just said doesn't make sense. Are you reading what you wrote??? Rain is foremost a singer. That is what he is known for. The acting bit is just to extend his career. As for changing the Prince title I will pass because to me right now it seems that the editors here don't like changing article info much less titles so I will pass and move on. EunSoo (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - I think there's enough people here who oppose this move, so I won't even bother to add to the list. But what I do want to say regarding this issue is that I find it fastinating for a newbie like EunSoo - who's only been on Wikipedia for a few days, to take the guidelines and everything else that's been developed on Wikipedia over the last five-plus years regarding disambiguation of articles, and basically flush it down the toilet overnight because, in his world, he feels he's trampled onto something the thousands of other admins and editors have totally overlooked. In the Japanese entertainment world, Rain would be considered a "tarento" (talent), in that he does everything: dance, sing, act, maybe even throw a few jokes on-stage or juggle if given tennis balls. In English, "entertainer" is a term used for all people involved with entertainment. Wikipedia avoids assigning an individual a certain sub-genre like singer, dancer, etc. because you'd then have the fandorks debating over which one of the sub-genre he really is. And last, he's NOT known as "Bi Rain", "Rain Bi", etc. I Googled for these terms, and outside of the forums (which BTW forums do NOT count as realible sources under Wikipedia guidelines), no one refers to this guy as either of these. I also administer DramaWiki at D-Addicts (that's where more likely you've seen me), and on our wiki we do not refer to him as "Bi Rain" or "Rain Bi". Again, reliable sources refer to him as either Bi or Rain, but not both. Finally, enough with this BS regarding primary/secondary names, or trying to get rid of "entertainer". Regardless of how many times you keep telling us to read your requests over and over again until we understand, it has absolutely nothing with us not understanding you. It has everything to do with you being wrong and not reading our guidelines and respecting them. Groink (talk) 03:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - That is good for you Groink. I thought I recognized you. You were quite rude to me at dramawiki (and I see you are here as well). Anyways, I do follow guidelines and in most the opposing comments here it seems like editors don't like change. So if you strongly oppose then that is fine. But a lot of what I say makes sense. Wikipedia has other articles that have the exact titling like Prince (musician) yet Rain has Rain (entertainer) it would only make sense to title him by what he does the most, or use Rain (Bi) seeing as he goes by both titles. And as for Dramawiki and Addicts are not reliable sources either. Side Note: And as a heads up, if you Google Rain, Bi Rain and etc you'll find that it is either Rain, Bi (Rain) or Rain (Bi). EunSoo (talk) 04:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Eunsoo, as previously stated, Bi is NOT a title that he uses professionally outside of Korea. Bi = 비 = the Korean word meaning "rain". Also, the word in brackets is a term that further describes the term, not translate it. That's why, for example, you would never see Singer (chanteuse) or Singer (gasu). There's no need to say that Rain is English for Bi, because this is English Wikipedia, and "Rain" is his official title. Korean Wikipedia has ko:비 (가수), or "Rain (singer)". It's not 비 (Rain). That's why to have the article as Bi Rain or Rain Bi makes no sense, using Wikipedia guidelines. First of all, that makes it sound like one word is his first name, with the other his last name. Also, no one looks for "rain bi" or "bi rain" together, as one single term. They may search for both words, but that's because they know that the words could be used interchangeably for many Korean pop blogs and forums (mostly English). As people have previously stated, Rain himself uses only "Rain" professionally in English-speaking countries.

And "entertainer" is the clarifying/distinguishing/disambiguating term used for people who work in more than one field of entertainment, if it's required. Rain sings. Rain acts. Rain produces music. Rain has his own management company/record label. As such, "entertainer" is the best term, because that's what he does, and that term encompasses everything that he does.

If someone looks for just "Rain", yes, it's gonna take a few clicks to get here, but you will get here. Same with Bi. When people search for either "Rain" or "Bi", they may not want the article on the singer, but something else. That's why the disambiguation has to happen.

Unfortunately, it's gonna take a persuasive argument to rename this page other than "I don't like it" or "It doesn't make sense to me". I don't mean to offend you in any way, but your arguments come across as sounding like this. You have yet to clearly show why you want the change, and how it makes sense under Wikipedia rules. Hope that helps. SKS (talk) 04:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - Okay alright. I want to change it because Rain (entertainer) is a general wording for someone who primarily sings and also Rain is a famous singer and deserves a better title. I hope that is clear.

As for what you said above SKS. I don't know if you've noticed but I posted "Rain (Bi)" and not Bi Rain. I suggested "Rain (Bi)" because Rain is what he goes by as a his 1st primary name, then after that it is Bi which is his second name. But from what I've read everywhere people say Bi Rain I don't know why, but they just do. On news and such its Rain yes, but since Rain is taken on Wikipedia then it is only logical that it be Rain (Bi) in brackets to separate the "Bi". Now I don't know why but you make it seem like Wikipedia is only for English speakers, but it isn't it's for everyone so I don't see how you can find fault with the word "Bi" when that is also what he goes by. Right now I am suggesting to you another title that would fit better than just Rain (entertainer) because again entertainer is a general word and the title Rain is already taken. Also if you think about it Rain (entertainer) should be the primary topic of the disambiguation page because it is the mos viewed. :

Bi okay I noticed SKS just changed Bi to the Korean stage name of Rain (entertainer). Why'd you do that? That's like agreeing to what I just said. That Bi is his second primary name yet you don't want to include it in his page title. This is confusing me now. EunSoo (talk) 04:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Bi is not a secondary name. It is his stage name in Korean. There's a difference. And yes, this is English Wikipedia, so it is aimed at native English speakers. There are various languages for Wikipedia, and if people wish to look for Rain in their own languages, they can feel free to do so. SKS (talk) 19:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

That's where u are wrong my friend. This (비) is Korean (Bi) is romanized meaning it is on English terms and that doesn't matter the point is he is addressed mainly by both titles whether it be in America or Korea he is addressed as Rain and Bi. That is why I suggested Rain (Bi). Bi is not a secondary name. It is his stage name in Korean. There's a difference. This is (?) Okay... So if Bi is his stage name in Korean or Korea then why doesn't it qualify? Suppose he was titled just Bi then what? You wouldn't use it cause it is as you say in Korean? And like you said Bi means Rain so I don't see the big issue here. EunSoo (talk) 03:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose moving to Rain (Bi) as that title is more confusing. Rejectwater (talk) 14:32, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support as he is called Bi is Korea as well as Rain. Urgenine (talk) 20:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sourced content

Hello, I am a Reviewer (verify) here, and I am responding to your request on Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests#User: Active Banana. How may I assist you? Taric25 (talk) 21:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, User:Active Banana, from the looks of there history I am not the only one having problems with her. And apparently they have been labelled as a sock. So if you can just talk to them or something. I understand that unsourced material isn't allowed, but unsourced material that is obviously true but needs sources shouldn't be deleted. For example Rain's awards section is true because it is posted at other websites like Korean Wikipedia, Official website and Naver. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 21:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLP: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". If (per the request), we cannot find reliable sources to verify these promotional claims of winning awards, the content should not be in the article. Active Banana (talk) 21:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

A persons own website is not a suitable reference for winning an award. WP:SELFPUB. Neither is directly citing Korean Wikipedia, as that is also user generated content for which there is no editorial oversight or verification. Active Banana (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

How is Rain's official website not proof that he did win his awards? It's HIS website? And I never said these sites should be used as references, but they are good enough to state that the awards listed are proof that he did win those awards. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Did you read WP:SELFPUB? "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, ... so long as: the material is not unduly self-serving;" Claims of winning awards is pretty self serving. Active Banana (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, I never said these sites should be used as references, but they are good enough to state that the awards listed are proof that he did win those awards. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Huh? Thats what a reference is, something that will validate that he did indeed win the award in question.Active Banana (talk) 21:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Active Banana, Don't be a dick. The editor has some valid claims, and I see you've removed sourced content that is easily verifiable by doing a simple Google search to look for the source. (diff) (diff) Stop it. Now, what specifically do you want to add to the article? I can help with finding reliable sources and verification. Taric25 (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

So you mean that I shouldnt point out that my website says I won 7 nobel prizes, can jump the empire state building, won all the medals at the Athens Olympics and was voted 17 consecutive times as the Worlds Best Dictator by unanimous votes at the UN? OK I wont then. Active Banana (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay why are only focusing on his official website. What about the other websites that have his awards? 200.63.165.19 (talk) 21:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If they are reliable sources (newspapers, the site giving the award, television coverage, etc) add them. Active Banana (talk) 21:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Please keep a cool head when discussing the topic and do not use sarcasm. I am saying that we can easily verify this information, and we should helping the newcomer. We should be inviting, and if you can take 30 seconds to search for the claim in Google to add the source, which is much better than deleting the content. I feel we can be much more productive if we discuss a specific thing that we want to add to the article rather than disputing the reliability of its sources. Specifically, what information about Rain would you like to add or dispute? Taric25 (talk) 21:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

She still doesn't understand. If an unsourced info has no reference, but can still be sourced out it shouldn't be deleted. Because it is still reliable it just needs a reference. And I have to say if you continue like this Active Banana you will be blocked. You are already causing trouble for other editors, according to your talk page and listed for sockpuppetry. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

For now, please focus on the content you would like to add/remove/dispute and not the editor or the sources. See below, please. Taric25 (talk) 22:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I certainly do understand what you are saying, BUT what you are saying is not supported by Wikipedia policies. Have you read the links WP:BLP and WP:BURDEN and WP:RS. Active Banana (talk) 01:26, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Disputed claims

Awards

I am disputing the inclusion of any awards that cannot be verified by a reliable source - and for this content, the subject of the articles website is not a reliable source. Active Banana (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, which awards in particular would you like to dispute? Taric25 (talk) 22:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Goodwill Ambassador by the Korean Ministry of Agriculture

• Global Publicity Ambassador: City of Seoul
• Berlin Red Carpet Festival- Best Dressed Artist in the Red Carpet
• KBS Hit Chart - Top Albums (Top 1) Rainism Recollection
• HITO Music Awards Tokyo - Best Asian Pop Song "Rainism"
• Asian Television Awards: Hip Korea Discovery Channel (Best Music Program, Best Infotainment Program, Best Cross-Platform Content)

2008

• Bonsang Golden Disk Award
• SBS Mutizen Award (Top Song: Rainism)
• Korea Image Stepping Stone Award 2008 given by the Korea Image Communication Institute

2007

• MTV Asia's 'Artist of the Month' [January]
• 43rd Baeksang Arts Awards: Best New Actor for "I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK"
• The 59th Berlin Film Festival: Alfred Bauer Prize (I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK)
• Berlin Red Carpet Festival - Best Dressed Artist in the Red Carpet
• 4th Netizen Entertainment Award - Best Male Singer Award
• Hallyu Grand Award
• 44th DaeJong Film Awards: Overseas Popularity Award
• 'Best Asian Male Artist' in Macau, China
• People's Most Beautiful People list "First-Time Beauties 2007"
• Korean Entertainment Business Association - Star (Music) Award
• 2007 Mobile Entertainment Awards - Best Male Singer
• 1st Korean Film Awards - Best Actor Award

2006

• Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People Who Shape the World Award
• M.NET Male Artist Award
• Asia TV Awards: Best Movie Style [A Love to Kill]
• MKMF Mnet: Best Male Artist Award
• SBS Gayo Daejun 2006: Bonsang
• RTHK International Pop Poll Award - Top New Actor & Most Sold Asian Albums
• IFPI Hong Kong Music Sale Awards- Korea and Japan Music Award
• HITO Pop Music Awards- HITO Asian Music Awards

2005

• MTV Asia Awards: Favorite Artist Korea
• MTV Korea - Best Single Award
• MTV China - CCTV Mandarin Music Honors Award
• MTV Video Music Awards Japan: Best buzz Asia from Korea
• Channel [V] Best Single Award
• Channel [V] Music Video Awards - Popular Asian Artist
• Andre Kim Awards: Best Star
• KBS Drama "Love To Kill" or "이 죽일놈의 사랑"
• KBS Netizen Award
• Korea Cultural Content Grand Prize - Music Section
• Virgin Radio Hits 40 Awards - Best Asian Artist Award
• Hong Kong Universal Records - Golden Record Award
• LA City Hall - Cultural Exchange between Korea and US Awards

2004

• KBS Best Actor Award
• KBS Excellence Award for “Full House”
• KBS Drama Awards - Popularity Award
• MBC Top 10 Artist Award
• KBS Artist of the Year
• SBS Male Performer of the Year Award
• SBS Music Awards - Bonsang & Netizen's Best Popularity Award
• SBS Seoul Gayo Award - Bonsang
• The Korean Music Awards 2004 - Best Artist of the Year Award
• Popularity Award of TV Part (The Baek Sang Arts Grand Award)
• KBS Best Couple Award (with Song Hye Kyo)
• MNET Music Video Festival - Artist of the Year Award
• MNET Music Video Festival - Song of The Year Award (It's Raining)
• Golden Disc Award - Bonsang
• Andre Kim Star Awards - Actor Section
• The 40th Baek Sang Arts Grand Awards - Popularity Award (Drama)

2002

• MBC Top 10 Artist Award
• KBS Music Award - New Artist, Most popular Singer Award by producers
• SBS Music Award - New Artist
• SBS Seoul Gayo Award - New Artist
• M.NET Music Video Festival - New Artist
• KMTV Korea Music Award - New Artist
• Golden Disc Award - New Artist

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Active Banana (talk • contribs) 22:47, 17 June 2010
Thank you very much for the list and being so specific. Now, if we were to obtain citations from books, newspapers, journals or the official website of the organization that issued the award, would that be acceptable? Taric25 (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• yes indeedy. Active Banana (talk) 23:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

  Okay, 200.63.165.19, do you accept that you can add information about Rain’s awards if you obtain citations from books, newspapers, journals or the official website of the organization that issued the award?

  Active Banana, will you do your best write more detailed edit summaries, refrain from using sarcasm, and do a Google search to find the source of information that editors add rather than simply remove it? If you can’t find the information in less than five minutes, fine. Simply write that you can’t easily find a source for it in your edit summary and move the unsourced information to the talk page. Taric25 (talk) 00:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

  I am not certain how much more specific I can get in edit summaries than

• as you provide citations THEN you can return the claims WP:V
• yes we can remove unsourced content WP:V WP:BLP
• unsourced contentious blp promotinal claims
• unsourced controversial promotional material about living person WP:BLP
• unsourced contentious claims about living person WP:BLP

Active Banana (talk) 00:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes I am willing to have the unsourced claims removed from the main page and placed here until each claim is verified and removed back to the main page with its source. Active Banana (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Please use indents so users can tell where the conversation is going. I've started to add sources to the list of awards. I think some of the awards could be removed... if you look at the list on the Korean version of this article, you see they keep some of the more important awards to cut back some on the minor ones. I'll look for more sources as I'm out of time right now, oncamera^(t) 02:13, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help, Oncamera. Taric25 (talk) 02:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree on the use of indents and I re-factored the talk page to reflect it. As far as the use of edit summaries, please do not use the automatic summary “Undid revision [NUMBER] by [USER] (talk))”, without writing anything else in the edit summary, which I have seen you do a couple times, or no summary at all other than the section in which you're editing, such as Legal Issues, and speaking of that edit, do you see how this is infinitely more desirable than removing that content? It really took me only a few minutes to find the information on Google in order to add the source. Please do the same, unless you can't find the information in under five minutes, then move it to the talk page. Taric25 (talk) 02:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to follow me as I hack trails through jungles of unsourced content; and you can build lovely sourced roads in the wake. Much of my editing time is in situations where I do not have any reasonable expectation of not being interrupted for even a "couple of minutes to do a google search" to attempt to find sources for claims ranging from seemingly benign to bizzare. If you do, well good for you!

But, bringing articles into closer compliance with WP:V is something that takes mere seconds and if I do get interrupted, my previous work is not lost and providing zero improvement to Wikipedia.

Thank you for improving Wikipedia in your way, and I will improve it in mine. Active Banana (talk) 02:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Please withdraw your previous statement. If you will not commit yourself adding reliable sources instead of removing good-faith edits, I will take this to the next level. Taric25 (talk) 03:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I withdraw my offer, since I looked into contributions and see there is a pattern. Taric25 (talk) 05:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not seeing any continued effort to provide sources for the award claims in the article. If there is no additional effort within the next few days, the unsourced awards will again be removed from the article and placed here until they can be verified. WP:V / WP:BLP. Active Banana (talk) 04:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with removing the whole list... Important ones should be/are written about in his career section and not posted in the long long list. oncamera^(t) 15:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Headers

I changed the Headers of the article (again) to match how they are done on better written and comparable articles such as Michael Jackson. If there are disagreements with my edits, please discuss them here instead of reverting to the poorly organized headers. For instance, it's in bad taste to name his Career section as "Biography" as the entire article is already a biography. Thanks, oncamera^(t) 00:09, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Comparable to other articles? There was nothing wrong with them before. The newer titles are short, and to the point, compared to the old titles. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 00:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

You also changed more than just headers Oncamera and removed alot of information. I opposed your edit so shouldn't you discuss it before adding in your version.200.63.165.19 (talk) 00:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't remove any information. The stuff about the 2010 drama in Korea was moved to the 2010 section. And I just put paragraph breaks into the header. You didn't give a valid reason for reverting besides an opinion, so don't start a pointless edit war when the Header change I implemented improves the article. It's easier for readers to find info about different years in Rain's career to use years in the titles. Did you even look at the comparable article? oncamera^(t) 00:51, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not starting an edit war you are because you keep reverting when the original edit was before yours. The headers are simple and to the point as I have stated. Your headers are full of dates that are already in the paragraph. You have also removed a bunch of information from the introduction section of the page See Here. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 01:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, you're not even getting it: the information was moved down into the body of the article because it's not important to have a sentence for a drama that hasn't even aired in the header. So, since you're having so much fun reverting my improvements to the article, I don't need to waste my time here. Good luck finding sources for the Awards section; are you handy with Korean news sites? Cheers, oncamera^(t) 01:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

So because I question your headers you are going to leave me to do the searching by myself. That's cruel. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 01:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Alright enough! Per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, it was right for Oncamera to BE BOLD, and I applaud Oncamera for being bold and not discussing the change of headers on the talk page. Also, per BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, 200.63.165.19 has the right to revert your edit, but Oncamera you should not re-revert as it completely invalidates the purpose of being so bold — to start discussion. So, enough edit warring. Discuss the changes. Taric25 (talk) 01:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

What's there really to discuss? With the messy headers the way they are, this article will never get out of a C-class rating. I tried to help, but if I have to explain the obvious with paragraphs of discussion, then it's meaningless to "help". oncamera^(t) 01:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Oncamera, let’s focus on the article, not other editors. I’d also like to know the status of our sources for the awards. I’ve taken some of your comments below. 02:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Reasons to support new headers

Give examples of sources, articles or policy/guidelines that support the change. Taric25 (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

• As of 02:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC) the current headers are messy
• The current headers will never get the article out of a C-class rating
  •  Question: After we fix sourcing the awards, would you like a peer review in order to evaluate the article to improve its rating?

Taric25 (talk) 02:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I've written articles up to GA-class, and I understand what the basics should be before going into a peer review, so by simply comparing this article to B or GA class articles the differences in the basic organizational structure will be clear. So, it's best to do what one can to prepare a decent article before the PR per Wikipedia:Good article criteria. oncamera^(t) 02:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, Oncamera. 200.63.165.19, do you have any objections at this point to moving toward the new headers so that we can get out of C-class? Taric25 (talk) 05:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

• Articles such as Michael Jackson use these type of headers
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (layout) - Complicated articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure. oncamera^(t) 02:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the example and its related policy. Taric25 (talk) 05:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
• The current headers are poorly organized
  • For instance, it's in bad taste to name his Career section as "Biography" as the entire article is already a biography. Taric25 (talk) 02:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Reasons to oppose new headers

Give examples of sources, articles or policy/guidelines that oppose the change. Taric25 (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

• Short, and to the point
  • "Short" is not a Wikipedia policy. And while being "concise" is good encyclopedic writing advice, "just make it short" isnt. Active Banana (talk) 02:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
• Other headers are full of dates that are already in the paragraph Taric25 (talk) 02:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
  • All header content had better be covered in the paragraphs that follow! Active Banana (talk) 02:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Status on obtaining sources for awards

Alright, guys what's the status on us getting sources for his awards? Does anyone read Korean, because Google Translate is pretty fuzzy for articles from Korea Times. Taric25 (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh I am in the process of searching. 200.63.165.19 (talk) 02:11, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Taric25 (talk) 02:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Religion

Is there any information on his religion? The only things I found were profiles that had a conspicuously blank spot next to religion and one website that said something along the lines of him being very dedicated to his mom, although I don’t see how being dedicated to your mom is religious, but everyone has their own beliefs. Taric25 (talk) 05:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Who cares?! Here's to hoping he's atheist. --75.3.94.253 (talk) 07:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Army Enlistment

Can someone please find an exact date for when that "press conference" was held. Having the section simply state "today" is misleading. --75.3.94.253 (talk) 07:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 22:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Rain (entertainer) → Rain (singer) – per WP:AT "Naturalness...actually called": "singer Rain" 121 hits in Google Books, vs "entertainer Rain" = 1 hit ("as an entertainer.Rain.."). --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 03:33, 21 September 2013 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 03:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that (of "singer Rain" 121, a third mishits) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. 121 for "singer", yes, but also 102 results for "actor Rain". The subject is known almost equally as a singer and an actor, having won numerous acting awards in addition to an extensive discography. Dohn joe (talk) 05:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Dohn Joe, the RfC you raised on (entertainer) still has no voice except your own supporting applying ambigious disambiguators to singers with some acting credits. This Google search you've placed is not 102 hits, it includes all kinds of noise having no connection. ["actor rain" "korean"] produces only 5 hits all of which also include "singer":

[1] "South Korean singer and actor, Rain"

[2] "Rain: JungJi Hoon (1982–), South Korean pop singer, movie actor."

[3] "In addition, the main actor, Rain, already famous as a singer elsewhere in Asia;"

[4] "include singer and actor Rain, who appeared in the Hollywood films Speed Racer (2007) and 2009's Ninja Assassin";

[5] "South Korean pop singer-actor Rain was offered the lead role in the Warner Bros, remake of Bruce Lee's "Enter the Dragon,".

Even when an actor, he's still first and foremost a singer:

The Hollywood Reporter - Page S-61 2006 "Park Chan-wook's "I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK," which stars Korea's biggest singer, Rain, sold to Golden Scene in Hong Kong, M Pictures for Thailand and Encore Film for Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. The big- budget fantasy ..."

The question is why you want to classify someone as "the entertainer Rain" - a description more closely associated with vaudeville, burlesque, comedy-dance-magic variety acts when the sources call him "singer"? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

In ictu - first, I've asked you several times not to WP:REFACTOR a comment or nominating statement after someone has already responded. It's misleading at best, and manipulative at worst. Please stop.

Second, I was just following your own methodology to get those 102 results. Doing so again, ["singer rain" "korean"] produces just 27 results, of which at least 8 refer to him as more than just a singer. (Also, my search of ["actor rain" "korean"] gets me an additional hit, so six total.) That means that at least 14 results refer to him as more than just a singer, while no more than 19 results are for singer only. Thus, over 40% of sources refer to him as actor+singer (and again, not just bit roles, but multiple award-winning actor). Actor + singer = entertainer. Dohn joe (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I am allowed to make minor corrections and additions to my posts, no one will be disturbed by the note that of the 121 a third are mishits. But since you insist, as a separate line under nom. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

It's all about being fair. If someone posts something, and someone else responds to it, it's not fair to go back and change the original post - especially if the first person uses the change to attack or criticize the second person's response. Even if the correction would otherwise have been minor, once someone else relies on it, it's not. Dohn joe (talk) 01:37, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Please stop creating drama. The note "of which a third are mishits" is in the search bracket or under the search bracket is minor, and it's now the way you want. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:05, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support. He's primarily known as a singer. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Rain is a pop star. Pop star = entertainer. Rain's acting career is a major element of his fame, so Rain (musician) and Rain (singer) do not adequately cover the topic. Binksternet (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

@Binksternet: what about Rain (wrestler)? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:31, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. Binksternet (talk) 15:34, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I mean that since there are plentiful sources that say "wrestling is entertainment" (67 GBhits) isn't there a level of ambiguity to some readers that both Rain (singer) and Rain (wrestler) are both Rain (entertainer)s? In ictu oculi (talk)

Are there any professional wrestler biographies on which the parenthetical (entertainer) is appended after the name, for disambiguation? Binksternet (talk) 18:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Fortunately Wikipedia generally doesn't use (entertainer) period. Yes there is one, who is also a DJ, but there's an RM underway to remove it.

Not sure I understand the relevance of the question, are you suggesting that experienced Wikipedia readers will learn that (entertainer) can mean singer on wikipedia but doesn't include (wrestler)? If so, then yes, I imagine that's quite possible. But less experienced users are likely to be conditioned by print sources rather than Wikipedia's own ways. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

(Korean 비 IPA ['piː])

Not quite sure how the Korean for rain was removed from info-box and lead, but needs to be in both. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Change to "Personal life"

I went ahead and deleted the sentence reading "He became a baptized Catholic in 2014" since it seems irrelevant to the rest of the section. If anyone disagrees, or can find a way to make it relevant, feel free to add it back in. Sydkei (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I added the info back in. Religion is a basic feature of virtually any celebrity's "Personal Life" section on Wikipedia. Lol natemup (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 22 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 16:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

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Rain (entertainer) → Rain (singer) – given that no one says "the entertainer Rain" or "Rain the entertainer" and that his acting career seems to have now receded and new album coming out, can we just call him "Korean singer Rain" as sources do? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:45, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Disagree with the reason for moving the article. He could easily start acting again at any point and then do we move the article to Rain (actor) when that happens? He's also won numerous awards as both a singer and actor and (entertainer) best summarizes his contributions.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose he's more than just a singer and entertainer covers this better. Alex (talk) 16:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as above. WP convention is to disambiguate with "(entertainer)" when a person is well known in more than one area of entertainment. Dohn joe (talk) 18:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support move to Rain - is there any other possible primary topic? ... ... okay, just kidding, I just wanted to give @In ictu oculi: a heart attack . In real talk, I hate the term "entertainer" when it's unnecessary, and I do support as proposed, but that probably needs to be an encyclopedia-wide conversation. Red Slash 22:20, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - He is also a well established actor, the move doesn't make sense. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 22:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and close, the nominator is very aware of this RFC (in which he participated). Going against an RFC consensus is unacceptable. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 02:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC close 2013

Given these guidelines and the status of the RfC, I'm inclined to conclude that there was consensus option 3, meaning that the use of the term entertainer should be restricted to cases where a subject's notability across different areas of entertainment is roughly the same on the basis that many entertainers are known for a specific entertainment domain. That said, I don't think those cases are terribly obvious, and ought to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis through discussion. This consensus also has the consequence of affecting articles described in option 5, meaning that such articles probably should dabbed as something other than (entertainer). I, JethroBT drop me a line 02:37, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Buidhe As per above "use of the term entertainer should be restricted to cases where a subject's notability across different areas of entertainment is roughly the same on the basis that many entertainers are known for a specific entertainment domain." which means Rain (singer) In ictu oculi (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Based on the above move discussion, I don't see how it could be closed any other way. Even guidelines sometimes have exceptions, or alternately some editors may believe that Rain has been significant in multiple areas of entertainment. (t · c) buidhe 17:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Or they are editors that support (entertainer) as a dab. But anyway, I'm confused as to why you marked it non-admin closure but have Category:Wikipedia administrators willing to make difficult blocks on page? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

I would support simply stopping using "entertainer" as a disambiguation term completely. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:22, 4 March 2021 (UTC)