Talk:Rama III

Untitled

• according to naming monarchs under Wikipedia rules, this needs to be changed [1] Antares911 11:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC), requesting the move from Nangklao to Rama III of Thailand.

Please see the result of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles)#Article names for Thai royals/Thai with honorary titles first. andy 11:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I hereby decided to deny that request to move. Arrigo 12:35, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Fix the King;s name

may be change his name for fit to other King's names as King Jessadabodindra--Pudtipong Nawasornyuttana 04:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I note that Pudtipong is a native Thai editor of wikipedia, knowledgeable how Thais themselves call their that historical monarch, and I trust therefore the proposition above. Arrigo 06:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Clean Up and Sources

could the author please provide some sources for this material? once provided, we can begin the process of refining the language and format to meet wikipedia standards. miketer 18:33, 17 September 2005

Sources

I translated it from Thai minister's lecture to bachelor student at university.--Pudtipong Nawasornyuttana 14:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The king's deathbed statement

A mere "popular legend"? I believe the quotation is an authentic historical statement by the King himself. Evidences in English might be rare, but there are plenty of evidences in Thai sources reaffirming that he did say something like that towards the end of his reign. One of the most obvious is the current 500-baht banknote, issued by the Bank of Thailand and still in circulation, with the picture of the present King on the front and that of Rama III on the back, with this quotation in small print next to Rama III's picture.122.0.3.123 (talk) 02:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC)thaivisitor

Red Bag (Purse) Money

In former versions of this page there have been references (under the heading "The Wealthy King") to "The Red Bag Money". I don't know the reason for deleting the whole section in later versions, but I still think that the Red Bag (or Purse) Money is one of the King's significant legacy worth mentioning, maybe under the Heading "Death and Legacy". It would tie in well with his deathbed vision, and history later proves that Siam really had to use the Red Purse Money after her dispute with France during Rama V's reign. I therefore propose the reintroduction of this issue. 122.0.3.123 (talk) 02:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC) thaivisitor

Jessadabodindra > Nangklao

Googlebooks search results should not be the determining factor in deciding the king's name. Although it is understandable since a formal system doesn't really exist in deciding which name should be used, however the article name should be changed back to Jessadabodindra.

The reasons for this are first that the name is used, not as widely, but still used by reputable scholars and sources, i.e. it is not uncommon. Secondly the name of the 7 of the 9 Chakri monarchs refers to their given and not ceremonial names: Mongkut as oppose to Chomklao, Chulalongkorn as oppose to Chulachomklao, Vajiravudh as opposed to Mongkutklao, Prajadhipok as opposed to Pokklao, Ananda Mahidol as opposed to Atthama Ramathibodindhorn and of course Bhumibol Adulyadej doesn't use a ceremonial name at all. The use of Nangklao, although correct, would be anomalous in comparison. The accepted use of his name in this article and among many others is prove of at least a kind of silent consensus among editors that the king should have been referred to by this name. There is no overwhelming need for this name change, in fact there is an overwhelming need to keep the old name as it is. Sodacan (talk) 10:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping this might not require painful scrutiny of reliable sources. My understanding is that only from King Mongkut onwards were Chakri monarchs commonly referred to in English by their given (birth) names. In fact, Jessadabodindra is not Rama III's given name at all, but rather a bestowed feudal title. Google Books is obviously neither the first nor last word, but you haven't given any concrete examples of scholarly works which refer to the king as Jessadabodindra either. Examples supporting "Nangklao" include popular works such as Baker & Phongpaichit[2] and earlier works such as Prince Chula Chakrabongse.[3] If we really wanted to apply WP:COMMONNAME, however, we would have the article at Rama III, although we seem to be avoiding such use. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

It will and it should. It is true that King Mongkut and latter kings were often referred to by his given rather than ceremonial name, certainly in English. But the use of the given name (Jessadabodindra, Mongkut, Chulalongkorn) is the most consistent with WP:COMMONNAME, the use of Rama (I to IX), although a very good solution, is not a name. That is true I have not given any works yet, but I will, I just didn't think the changes should be made on a whim without painful discussion, as it should be. BTW Baker and Phongpaichit refer to Rama I as 'King Yotfa', no one else does this. Prince Chula uses Prince Chesda (shorten and alternative form of Jessadabodindra) to refer to Rama III before he became king. He also refers to Rama I as 'Buddha Yodfa' and Rama II as 'Buddha Loesla'. Sodacan (talk) 16:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I don't think anyone is avoiding the use of Rama, in fact I personally prefer it, I make it a point in all my edits to at first mention use the long name with (Rama N) in brackets and thereafter uses Rama N.

I prefer the shorter name, but was it not Nangklao given to Jessie posthumously, by Mongkut? --Pawyilee (talk) 19:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Reigning confusion

Moving the article to the posthumous name strikes me as far less important than straightening out his name as inconsistently used in the article, starting with his given name, Tub (Thai: ทับ pronounced — and also meaning — Top.) Consider what Edmund Roberts (diplomat), who actually met the man, wrote in his journal. [page number in brackets] (omitted text indicated by ellipsis....)

[300] ... In July, 1824, the father of the present king died very suddenly, it was said of stranguary, but not without strong suspicions of his being poisoned; in fact, it is said, by every one, that this was the cause of his death. His eldest, but illegitimate son, Chromas Chit, ascended the throne the same day, without bloodshed; to the exclusion of the rightful heir, prince Chow-Pha-Yai, who immediately embraced the priesthood, in order to save his life, or his liberty, or because he would not do homage to a usurper. His younger brother Chow-Phoi-Noi*, otherwise Mom-fa-Noi, was the next legitimate heir to the throne. He lives at the Portuguese fort, on the right bank of the river, opposite to the palace, and is now about twenty-five years of age....

[*He speaks and writes the English language with considerable fluency, and his pronunciation is very correct.]

[301] .... The government of Siam is a despotism, subject to no restraint except the apprehension of popular tumult or foreign invasion. The fact of being in high station, is regarded as sufficient evidence of exalted merit in a former state of existence. The king is therefore considered almost, if not altogether, equal to a deity; and is always addressed as such. His most common designations are Chao-cheveet, "the lord of lives,"Khun-luang," the owner of all,"Phra-putty-chao-jahooa," "The sacred lord of heads," and numerous others of the same nature. His more formal title, as translated in the treaty with the British, concluded by Captain Burney, is the following: "The great lord who is in possession of every good and every dignity, the God Bood'h, who dwells over every head in the city of, the sacred and great kingdom of Sia-yoo-thya, incomprehensible to the head and brain." The Siamese, when they possess titles, cease to be designated by any personal names; hence the king is never spoken of except by the abovementioned or other similar titles....

[302] At the head of the Siamese administration is the supreme council, consisting of the following officers:—

First: A president, a prince of high rank. When the mission was in the country, this office was held by the prince Khroma-luang-rah.

Second: Chao-phaya-bodin-deeha or khroma-ha-thai, formerly called Chao-phaya-chakri. He has the general superintendance of the northern provinces adjoining Pegue, and of the principalities of Laos and Camboja.

Third: Chao-phaya-maha-sena, or khroma-ka-la-hom; he is of equal rank with the lastmentioned, and holds the office of commander-in-chief of all the land and sea forces, with the general superintendance of the southwestem provinces, even to the last tributary Malay rajah.

Fourth: Chao-phaya, praklang or khromatha, the minister of commerce and foreign affairs, who also has the superintendance of the southeastern provinces adjoining Cochin-China. This office and the lastmentioned, are at present held by one individual.

Fifth: Chao-phaya-jomarat, or khroma-muang, minister of criminal justice.

Sixth: Chao-phaya-phollathep, or khrom-na, minister of agriculture and produce.

Seventh: Chao-phaya-therama-terat, or chroma-wang, governor of the royal palace.

The mission, during its stay in the country, had intercourse only with the praklang, and the subordinate officers of his department. These were:—

First: Chao-phaya praklang: Chao-praya is the first in order of the honorary tides. Praklang is said to signify, "lord of the store-houses," and is the title of the office. This signification corresponds with the title given to him by the Chinese, viz.: "Great minister of the treasuries or store-houses."

Second: Phaya-si-piphat. This office is held by one of the brothers of the praklang. Phaya is the second honorary title.

Third: Phaya-piphat-kossa, called by the Portuguese, the second praklang.

The other officers in this department, consisting of four phayas, two pras, (or officers of the third rank) eleven luangs, (of the fourth rank,) &c, were never met with by the mission, except [303 Officers of Government.] when in the presence and acting under the orders, of their superiors.

Connected with this department is that of the Farang-khromma-tha, "Frank (or European) commercial board," under the direction of the Luang-sura-sakhon, chief of the Linguists, or captain of the port. This office is at present held by Sur-Jose-da-Piedade.

The commander of the artillery, Phaya-viset, Song-khiam, is also often brought in connexion with foreign missions. This office is held by Sur-Beneditto-de-Arvellegeria, a Cambojan Portuguese, who, with his brother, Sur-Rascoal, has been for many years in the employ of the king of Siam. The governors of all provinces, whether great or small, are of the second rank, or phayas, with one exception, that of the governor of Ligore, called Chao-phaya-lahhon. Their subordinate officers are not known.

--Pawyilee (talk) 16:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay; attempted a bit now. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Ordinal numbering of reigns and kings

This can best be handled at Rama (Kings of Thailand), which can then used in other articles. I've started by adding a ref from W.A.R. Wood's History of Siam, and will continue with material from Roberts, and from H.G.Q. Wales's Siamese State Ceremonies when I can.--Pawyilee (talk) 12:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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