Talk:Rattlesnake/Archive 1

Archive 1

Number of species

The article says there are 50 species of rattlesnake but the sidebar says there are only 27. Any clue which is the correct number? Cryo921 10:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC) It says there are 30 species now! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.153.58 (talk) 18:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Sucking the poison

In many American films and television shows, particularly those with the setting of the "old west" that a person that has been bit by a poisonous snake, particularly a rattler, could have the venom "sucked out" of the wound. One particularly notable scene occurs in "Lightning Jack" where Paul Hogan gets a nip in the butt, and needs certain attention. Anyways, is there any merit to this mentality, and would mention of it in regards to treatment be pertinent to the article? I'm particularly fond of the warnings and precautions in this article, and think that the common idea of the ability to suck out the venom ough to be approached, whether in favor or not. Kingerik 17:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Department of Health and services from 3 different states lists "sucking the poison" as a first aid measure. "Venom is a protein and can be taken orally with no ill effects." --Surreal 12:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sporting goods stores also sell an inexpensive device that resembles a suction cup for removing rattlesnake venom. Durova 20:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Using a suction device for "sucking the poison" is a good first aid measure. But you do not want venom in your mouth. If I am not mistaken, the skin under your tongue is very good at absorbing chemicals into the blood stream (which is why nitro can be administered that way). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.196.221.79 (talk) 21:23, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I recall reading the concern about orally removing the poison was if you had a cut on your lip, or mouth, you could be in trouble. Jokem (talk) 13:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

SUCKING THE VENOM OUT OF A BITE IS A MYTH! SURE ITS POSSIBLE TO GET SOME OF IT, BUT THERE'S NO GUARANTEE YOU WILL GET ALL OF IT! THIS IS BY NO MEANS A CURE! IF YOU GET BIT, WRAP THE ENTIRE LIMB TIGHTLY WITH A PRESSURE BANDAGE IF YOU HAVE ONE, SO THAT BLOOD FLOW WILL BE RESTRICTED, SLOWING THE SPREAD OF VENOM. IF YOU DON'T HAVE A PRESSURE BANDAGE THEN IMPROVISE. THIS IS ONLY A TEMPORARY SOLUTION HOWEVER, AND IN THE CASE OF ANY VENOMOUS SNAKEBITE, SEEK PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ATTENTION!!!!!!!

Sucking venom is not reliable and very dangerous for the person who is removing the venom. If the venom gets in your mouth than it has almost direct access to the heart and brain, and can prove fatal.--Manny (talk) 14:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Question

After searching and reading a few separate articles on rattlesnake species I noticed they all have the same category, pit vipers. When I searched the cat list for rattlesnake i came up short, but I did find a category for "rat snakes". I'm new here and don't know about guidelines for categories (or how they should be created/used). But should there be a rattlesnake cattegory to fit the various species that have existing articles? Surreal 1/10/06

Well, I added the category- after reading up on as much info as I could find. If I made a mistake please leave me a message explaining it. Some categories/sub cats confuse me a little.

=I have a question. The area I live in is the mountains of Tennessee called the Cumberland Plateau. We have rattlesnakes here and my brother was bitten by one many years ago. My question is about the possible length of a full-grown rattlesnake. I see only one reference to size on your site. Could a rattlesnake grow to be 15ft in length? I was told "NO". I do not think this is true. Please reply to this site or contact me at cyndisherrill@frontiernet.net. Thank you

rattlesnakes don't get taht long, they are short fat snakes. MAYBE 6-10 feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.51.51 (talk) 07:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

It is possible for a rattlesnake to grow to lengths of 15 feet, but that is unusual in Tennessee, and definitely not in the mountains. The only rattlesnake that will grow to be 15 feet is a Diamondback, and those live in the desert.Manny (talk) 14:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing.

I started reformatting the article in a word processor and I really didn't think it required such an overhaul until I started making changes. That will teach me to read more carefully. The tag is definitely warranted. There plenty of factual errors as well as structural problems... I removed some redundant information and kept all the facts I was unsure of. The information on "safety" concerns me because I'm not sure if it’s pertinent to the article-- though it’s informative and useful. I placed my edit here: User:Surreal/New Rattlesnake Edit because I realize a lot of time and work has been put into the article and I didn't want to tyrannically stamp my version over it. Please critique and let me know if I should replace it. --Surreal 10:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

• I think you need to be bolder - that's a good edit, and as it's not likely to be controversial, you should just make that edit to the article. One thing, though: why did you capitalize "Rattlesnake" every time? rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 16:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Reverting isn't all that difficult. Thanks for the reassurance. I'm going to work on it again when I get the chance and make the swamp. As for naming; I realize there's no consensus and much debate over the capitalization of fauna. I made an inquiry some time ago and was directed here: [Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (fauna)].

Personally, I don't feel its important if fauna is capatilized or not (I prefer it capitalized though; aesthetically matching article names). But I constantly find pages that do BOTH. When editing I usually adhere to the majority of instances within the individual article. I have no objection to anyone making it lowercase if they want to take the time to change all the instances in any article. --Surreal 22:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Appears the article has been worked on and greatly improved already. Ah, well.

RfC

I changed the phrasing in my section about safety per Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. All rattlesnakes are pit vipers and all pit vipers have diamond-shaped heads. Therefore the shape of the head is a true sign that a snake is poisonous. Durova 20:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

this is not true at all. the shape of a snakes head does not dictate whether or not it is venomous. many venomous snakes have a non-diamond-shaped head, and many non-venomous snakes have a diamond shaped head. a much more reliable way to tell whether or not a snake is venomous is by doing some research, and seeing how many venomous snakes are in you region, and how to identify each species. for example, if i see a snake, i check to make sure it doesn't have a rattle, because the only venomous snakes where i live are rattlesnakes.

ur making a jump in ur logic here, you're assuming that all venomous snakes are pit-vipers, and that only pit-vipers have diamond-shaped heads. look at pictures of coral snakes, sea kraits, black mambas, and cobras. these are all highly venomous snakes that do NOT have a diamond-shaped head. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.51.51 (talk) 07:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

A very reliable way for me to find if a snake is venomous is its shape. A non-venomous snake is thick and muscular because it is a constrictor and suffocates its prey. A venomous snake is not as muscular as a constrictor because it does not need to squeeze its prey.--Manny (talk) 15:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Regions?

This article needs to say a bit more about where rattlesnakes occur than simply mentioning that they are New World snakes. Arbitrary username 20:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

this article is great if you want to know exactly how a rattlesnake can kill you, but gives virtually no information about behavior. rattlesnakes really are only as dangerous as people think when the "victims" are doing stupid things, or are just completely careless (if you live near rattlesnakes, maybe taking a hike without shoes on just MIGHT be a BAD IDEA!). a lot of people get bit when they try to handle the snake. if a human gets bit by a rattlesnake its the human's fault. every time. a rattlesnake is only gonna do what it thinks it has to to survive. when are rattlesnakes active? how much and how often do they feed? where is they're range? sizes? examples of particular species? this article is sadly incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.51.51 (talk) 07:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Rattler"

If, as I suspect, "rattler" is slang, then it should be mentioned once as a slang term, and thereafter avoided. 80.229.160.150 22:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Taste?

Personally, I didn't think it tasted anything like chicken; it was more like a very meaty fish. I'm tempted to add a comment to this effect, but I'd rather have a source, so if anyone knows of any cookbooks that address the flavor of rattlesnake, please add a reference. JdwNYC 00:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Everything is supposed to taste like chicken. :-b But a rattler will taste like whatever it eats.--Manny (talk) 15:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The "Diamond-shaped" Head Fallacy

The above statement (RfC) is one of the most common misconceptions regarding snakes and is completely erroneous. It belongs in folklore rather than an encyclopedia. I have been studying reptiles for over 30 years and am familiar with many species of snake with straight heads that are highly venomous and visa-versa. In fact, I have a pet python that has a "diamond-shaped" head, as do most members of Boidae and Pythoninae, and is completely harmless. Please do some research and edit your article accordingly. 125.225.23.136 09:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. Make sure to cite sources other than yourself that are reliable (given the issues noted above...), though. (hopefully I'm not talking to someone long gone by now) --Thinboy00 @114, i.e. 01:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Habitat?

I came upon the article hoping to learn more about rattlesnake habitat for a children's book that I am working on. In particular, I was hoping to learn if rattle snakes ever live in holes. Having grown up in Montana, I have seen my share of "rattlers." I found most of them under rocks, or sunning themselves in the middle of footpaths (Yikes!), but sometimes I would come across an old gopher hole and wonder if a rattlesnake might like to camp out in there too. So a section on habitat would be greatly appreciated!

A rattlesnake will live in a hole that has an entrance under a rock, if the hole has the scent of its average food.Manny (talk) 15:11, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation

This page needs a link to a disambiguation of all the different kinds of rattlesnakes and locations with Rattlesnake in the name. I'll try to get to it later. Oh Snap 17:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC) they can be found in grass to —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.19.19 (talk) 04:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Rattle less?

I saw a promo for a National Geographic program that said that rattlesnakes are less likely to rattle now because of our selective killing of ones that do rattle. If that is correct, could it be in the article? Bubba73 (talk), 02:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like pure speculation, and I would avoid adding it until it's published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Mokele 03:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Quoting from the National Geographic show "but now there are signs that some may be evolving into more deadky forms, with accidental help from us". But I'll leave it there. Bubba73 (talk), 04:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Corey Fincher from Oklahoma State Univ. was the person on the show, but I couldn't find any publications on it. Bubba73 (talk), 05:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably just in preliminary stages, then. I'd avoid citing it until the publication comes out. The hypothesis is plausible, though I remain skeptical, but sometimes controlled experiments will reveal that there's really nothing there. Null results are frustrating, but happen. Mokele (talk) 05:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

What was shown on the show was definitely not a good controlled experiment. Bubba73 (talk), 05:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

A rattlesnake will rattle if in danger, no matter wither it knows if it will die because of it or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enc23 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Predators

Kingsnakes are immune or resistant to the venom. Are any of the other rattlesnake predators like that? Anyone knowlegable enough to comment? Also, it would be nice if someone would go into detail about why the Kingsnake is immune. Jokem (talk) 13:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I found a source (1911 encyclopedia) stating that pigs eat snakes. Whether pigs are immune to envenomation or are difficult for a rattler to get an effective bite upon is unclear, but it's not a good idea for a rattler to remain around pigs. --Paul from Michigan (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Livestock and animals?

Is rattlesnake bites/venom just as dangerous to livestock and dogs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.110.24.16 (talk) 03:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

just as if not more dangerous. hard to get antivenin to livestock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.51.51 (talk) 07:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Dogs are particularly vulnerable because they are usually have their noses low to the ground. Dogs are among the most fearless and aggressive of animals, so they can be reckless toward one of the few animals smaller than themselves that can kill them. Dogs can be trained to stay clear of snakes. Significantly, can dogs smell snakes?--Pbrower2a (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Relocating rattlesnakes

Will a rattlesnake survive being captured and relocated to another are a mile away? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.93.53.232 (talk) 19:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but DO NOT attempt to capture these animals without EXTENSIVE training. Over 70% of all venomous snakebites in the US are caused by people trying to interact with the animal (move it, scare it, catch it, etc.) rather than just leaving it alone. Mokele (talk) 21:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin quote

Editor TJRC recently removed this quote, commenting "It's not really about rattlesnakes; it was just an example of Franklin's rhetoric. No one who wanted to learn about Rsnakes would care."

Here's the section removed:

History

In 1751, Benjamin Franklin wrote, in response to Great Britain's policy of transporting criminals to their American colonies, proposing reciprocation: "Some Thousands [of the venomous reptiles we call Rattle Snakes] might be collected annually, and transported to Britain... [to be] carefully distributed... particularly in the Gardens of the Prime Ministers, the Lords of Trade and Members of Parliament; for to them we are most particularly obliged."

I think it's an interesting and amusing bit of history, and reasonable to include here -- it was in the Rattlesnake section of An American Bestiary, the source cited (I'm the one who added it). Other opinions? Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 20:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Just to expound a bit on my admittedly but inherently terse edit summary... I agree with you both that it's interesting and amusing. The thing is, it has nothing to do with rattlesnakes. The article is about rattlesnakes. This passage provides no information about rattlesnakes. It's perhaps about colonial opinion regarding transportation of criminals; about or 18th-century British-American relations; or maybe about Benjamin Franklin. I'm sure there's a place in Wikipedia for it somewhere. But it's not about rattlesnakes, and it's out of place in an article about rattlesnakes. TJRC (talk) 21:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Physical Characteristics?

This seems like a well-researched article, but I was hoping to learn a little bit more about some more mundane things, like the average size (length and weight), lifespan and the markings characteristic of the different species and subspecies. (Note that this information isn't contained on the linked page listing the different species and subspecies.)

Georgia Yankee (talk) 16:50, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello Georgia Yankee -- These sorts of physical characteristics vary greatly from species to species, and so it makes more sense to cover this sort of information on the articles for each species. Is there a particular species of rattlesnake you are interested in knowing more about? If you are in fact from Georgia, for instance, you might be interested in taking a look at the articles for the Eastern diamondback rattlesnake (C. adamanteus) and Timber rattlesnake (C. horridus). -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 09:04, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Post-mortem bites?

From the article: Caution is advised even when snakes are believed to be dead; rattlesnake heads can see, flick the tongue, and inflict venomous bites for up to an hour after being severed from the body.

This seems really implausible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.249.147.66 (talk) 23:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Rattling sound

When I watched TV a while ago, I saw on National Geographic that rattlesnakes are evolving because of humankind.

The rattling sound should scare creatures away, but now this sound is working against them. People are using this rattling sound to hunt the snakes down. So now this rattling sound is more like a weakness to them. Some rattlesnakes no longer make the rattling sound. They said this was quite a surprise, because normally an evolution like this should take at least more than a thousand years. 23:08, 3 august 2010 (CEST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.170.219.106 (talk)

Kilogram?

To avoid "taking sides" on the political issue of metric vs. english vs. whatever -

for the line in the text that says "In general, children experience more severe symptoms because they receive a larger amount of venom per kilogram of body mass." I would rather see it say ". . . per unit of body mass" since the measuring unit is not relevant to the statement and any unit will do.

I didn't change it myself because I didn't know if there was really some reason to say "kilogram" or if the writer was just being careless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalonzerg (talk • contribs) 20:55, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, and that seems to be both and innocuous and neutral change. I've made the edit. TJRC (talk) 23:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Size range

I realize that length & weight vary by sub-species, but a comparison or even rough estimate would be very helpful. - CompliantDrone (talk) 16:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Hibernation or brumation?

I edited the article on the timber rattler, changing "hibernate" to "brumate." After that, I thought I'd come here to see what this article says. I see it has a section on hibernation. From the article on hibernation, generally only warm blooded animals can hibernate,so the term shouldn't apply to snakes. But, now I'm hesitant to make the change. What are others' thoughts? SlowJog (talk) 15:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Hibernation or brumation?

I edited the article on the timber rattler, changing "hibernate" to "brumate." After that, I thought I'd come here to see what this article says. I see it has a section on hibernation. From the article on hibernation, generally only warm blooded animals can hibernate,so the term shouldn't apply to snakes. But, now I'm hesitant to make the change. What are others' thoughts? SlowJog (talk) 15:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

if and only if

If (and only if) the victim is more than an hour away from a medical facility, place a lightly constricting band (that admits one finger beneath it) above the bitten area to prevent the systemic spread of the venom.

This line needs to be changed to reflect the intended meaning of "If (and only if)". As it is now it means that if you have placed a lightly constricting band around the wound, the victim is more than an hour away from a medical facility. But I'm sure it's meant to mean that you should not use a band if you are an hour or less away from a medical facility.

It would also be nice to know why you shouldn't if you're nearby to a medical facility, I assume it's because it wouldn't be worth the time spent, but I can't read the citation so I don't know the reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.116.254 (talk) 09:33, 26 April 2015‎ (UTC)

It's correct as written. You're parsing it as the formal logic operator iff, which is not applicable in the context of this article, and in any event is not applicable when the subject clause of the condition ("place a lightly constricting band...") is an imperative clause rather than a declaratory clause. TJRC (talk) 16:02, 26 April 2015 (UTCbe carefull)

So, what is wrong with changing it? There may be more than one way to make it correct as written, and some of them may cause less confusion. SlowJog (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Snake Bite

Alot of garbage nonsense for snakebite treatment here...

If you're struck by any of these animals, wrap the wound, elevate the limb over the level of the heart (if applicable), and seek medical assistance *immediately*. That's it. Don't cut, suck, or anything else.

If you're in the US where private, for profit health care is norm, I hope you have really good insurance, because you'll probably require 20-30 vials of antivenin at a cost of ~2500 per vial, not counting all the ancillary expenses associated with a normal hospital visit (ie. - US $800 acetominophen tablets, etc. from the hospital)

Bottom line, an envenomation will probably **bankrupt you**. You'll be making payments to the private, for profit hospital for the rest of your existence on this planet.

Good luck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.51.217.118 (talk) 00:18, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

An unclear grammar.

In the "Effect of bites on humans" section, the sentence beginning with "A lack of burning pain and edema" is unclear.

Does it mean "A lack of burning pain and a lack of edema", or does it mean "An edema but a lack of burning pain". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.150.228.213 (talk) 08:56, 6 February 2016 (UTC)}

Rattle-less rattlesnakes?

I have read from a few sources that rattlesnakes without rattles are becoming far more common, because humans go out of their way to unnecessarily kill rattlesnakes that have rattles, wherease those without rattles manage to escape human attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.107.2 (talk) 06:57, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Missing reference.

The most cited reference is "Rubio 1998". But none of the citations show the name of the Rubio article, or its location and date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrican (talk • contribs) 13:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It's in "Further reading":

• Rubio, Manny (1998). Rattlesnake: Portrait of a Predator. Smithsonian Books. ISBN 1-56098-808-8.

But, yeah, the current "references" section should be relabeled "Notes", and specific references used put in "References". not "Further reading", per Help:Shortened footnotes.

Anatomy section.

Hi guys, I think that a subsection talking about the circulatory system in rattlesnakes would be beneficial to put under the anatomy section. What would you think about that? The three chambered heart in snakes and other reptiles is important for supplying the body with oxygenated blood and other nutrients and is different than the four chambered hearts in mammals. In addition, the three chambered hearts work efficiently with snakes because of the elongated body. Some articles that directly talk about the anatomy and physiology of the snakes heart are:

• Circulation in the Three-Chambered Snake Heart [1]
• Structure and function of the hearts of lizards and snakes [2]
• Development of the Hearts of Lizards and Snakes and Perspectives to Cardiac Evolution [3]

Tell me what you think. AR12Fan (talk) 00:18, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Heat Sensing Pits

Hello, the heat sensing pit section has no references along with an uninformative picture. I would like to update this section by double checking the information and adding sources to the paragraph and using a different photo. Any thoughts?

Found Sources: Biological Infrared Imaging and Sensing

The Infrared "Vision" of Snakes

Properties of an Infrared Receptor

Molecular Basis of Infrared Detection by Snakes

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryansnow (talk • contribs) 01:23, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

References

Missing Skeletal anatomy section:

Hey guys, I noticed this page includes a lot of anatomy subsections, but it's missing one on skeletal anatomy. Snakes have very fascinating skeletons. The vertebral column, the skull, and the ribs are all significant in the locomotion of the snake, and I think this subsection would serve to benefit the page if it was included within the anatomy section. Included below are a couple of sources I found that could be useful to this potential subsection.

Sources:

• "From Lizard to Snake; Behind the Evolution of an Extreme Body Plan"

• "Evolutionary morphology of the rattlesnake style"

• "Abstract Of Lectures On The Structure Of The Skeleton In The Sauropsida"

• "On the Locomotion of Snakes"

Let me know what you think and if you have any relevant sources or knowledge. Lunord22 (talk) 02:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)Lunord22

References

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 February 2019 and 17 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AR12Fan, Ryansnow, Lunord22.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)