Talk:Real tennis

Egyptian Origins?

Found the following in an article in the Jewish Quarterly review: "It has been demonstrated that tennis owes its origins to ancient Egyptian spring-time rites, in which the ball was a symbol of fertility." If you have access to Jstor you can see the source here. http://www.jstor.org/stable/1452376 I'm not particularly informed about the subject, but if this is the case it seems pretty interesting and should probably go in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.239.6 (talk) 22:30, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Jeu de paume

I am confused. In its article, jeu de paume is played by handpalm. But Real tennis is the original racquet game. They can't be the same! -- Error 01:14, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Real Tennis developed from Monks using their hands to hit the ball. They would use a glove on their hand to lessen the impact. This then developed into a racket, which is why the racket today is still shaped much like an open hand.

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I am not sure the ancient origins are really known or should really be cited. In the end everything comes down to someone throwing something somewhere and this story around Monks I haven't been able to substantiate. If no one replis to this in a few weeks I'll come back and take it out. There is in my view a lot more interesting information (like that the scoring for tennis 15 30 40 was originall 15 30 45 and the two hands on a clock face were used) which could go in. BzoMo

PJTraill 18:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I have somewhere read the suggestion that the game (of 60) represents a day's journey. That "love" derives from l'oeuf is also often asserted.

"Real tennis" a retronym?

Is real tennis a retronym? In other words, was it originally referred to as "tennis", and received the adjective only after variations on the sport came into being? I ask because the article on the French Revolution's Tennis Court Oath mentions a "real tennis court", which sounds anachronistic. — Jeff Q 20:33, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC What?

Yes, it used to be called "tennis". It is exactly the same game mentioned in Shakespeare's plays. Then around 1900, when lawn tennis became popular, people started calling that game "tennis". To distinguish it from the upstart, players of the original game called their game "real tennis". Also, some people mistakenly think that the "real" comes from the Spanish word for royal (as in the football club Real Madrid). DeCaux 23:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

but "real" still means "royal" in English (admittedly archaic English). Where is the proof that it is a retronym? Thruston 15:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Please see Heiner Gillmeister's book Tennis: A Cultural History, Leicester University Press, 1997. On page 28 there is a section titled 'Real' is not 'Royal': "....the term 'Real tennis' is merely a hundred years old. It first appeared in the 1870s, when the followers of Real tennis, in view of the overwhelming success of the new-fangled lawn tennis, felt the threat of extinction. In much the same way as the advertisers of a certain caffeinated soft drink who called their product 'the real thing' when a competitor promised more pep, they claimed to play the Real tennis. The popular fallacy, however, that 'real' should be equated with 'royal' has its roots in the belief that in the Middle Ages, tennis had been the monopoly of kings." --DeCaux 22:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

People that play "real tennis" call it "tennis" and call the other newer game "lawn tennis". Very few people that don't play real tennis make this distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.154.152 (talk) 19:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The term "lawn tennis" was still fairly common when the US group sanctioning it first started; by the mid-1970s it wasn't and hence the United States Lawn Tennis Association became merely the United States Tennis Association. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B164:9DB7:BC03:736A:4B42:8D96 (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Hyphenation

Phrases such as "a real tennis court" kept bringing me up short, since I'm not used to reading about real tennis. I suggest that this article follow the rule that when a noun phrase is used as an adjective, it gets hyphenated. Thus "a real-tennis court" (but "real tennis is..."). This would distinguish between "a real-tennis court" (as opposed to a lawn-tennis court) and "a real tennis court" (as opposed to a fake tennis court). I'm not bold enough to make this change, though, because <exaggeration> every time I do that in any specialized field </exaggeration>, someone says, "That looks really weird. No one ever writes it that way." —JerryFriedman 23:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PJTraill 18:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC) I think it applies here too: players, though they prefer the plain "tennis", do not hyphenate "real tennis" when they need the distinction. There is also the problem that one frequently sees constructions where hyphens bind less strongly than spaces! A better solution is perhaps to leave out the "real" in this article.

Adding Serve and Volley

Found the serve-volley page all on it's own, i decided to include it here and have the other page deleted, not sure if it fits in perfectly but i didn't want to remove it from wikipedia altogether

Tidying up

This page is a real mess. Lots of capitalisation looks ugly, there are no links to other pages, and it says "click on the picture" (last line), when there is no picture... EAi 11:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In late June this page seems to have been used as a sandbox by someone unfamiliar with Wikipedia writing. Because so much valid content, and all the images, were deleted I went ahead and reverted back to the May 31 version of the page. The more recent edits may have some valid content worthy of being worked into the pre-existing article, but please do so following some basic style guides and without removing good content. --Eoghanacht 12:48, 2005 Jun 26 (UTC)

Fenchurch Street

Archaeologists have discovered a tennis court off Fenchruch Street, dated to 1461. Worth a mention?

Real Tennis website - Ogg 12:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Caitch

I note there's an image of Fawkland Palace but no text to go along with it... Someone might want to use the text at http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitch and add something to the article?

Caitch is a gemme whaur raquettes an wechty baws is uised, it is played inby agin waws an sklentin ruifs. Caitch is kent as "real tennis" in Ingland. The warld's auldest caitchpule is at Fawkland in Fife, an wis biggit in 1539 bi James V in the Pailace gairden.
Historie
The gemme stertit wi Alexander III (1249-86) an wis like as no feshed frae Fraunce. Lang-syne there wis caitchpules in St Andrews, Perth, Edinburrie an Stirling.
James VI scrieved in 1598 Basilicon Doron for his auld son, Prince Henry (eild 4): "...the exercises that I uolde haue you to use (althoch but moderatlie not making a crafte of thaime) are rinning, leaping, urestling, fensing, dansing & playing at the cache."
The gemme kythes in “The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner” bi James Hogg in 1824.
The day
The gemme is played yet at Fawkland Pailace bi fowk frae a wee club.

Thanks/wangi 22:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I added an interwiki link to the Scots version. — Eoghanacht ^talk 15:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeu quarre ?

The court at Falkland Palace is said to be a different design, but it's never made clear. Could someone add details, here, please? Mdotley 18:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was no consensus, which defaults to no merge. MakeSense64 (talk) 14:28, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

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There are merge tags on this article and jeu de paume but no one added a discussion. 99.230.152.143 (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is at Talk:Jeu de paume#Real tennis PJTraill (talk) 23:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have the tags (removed), which are very old now. A merger would lead to a great deal more confusion. Luwilt (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I have updated the merger templates on both articles and pointed them to this renamed discussion topic. I support the merger of Jeu de paume into Real tennis. Both articles cover the same game. The game should have only one article, which mentions both names. I am proposing that Jeu de paume into Real tennis because Real tennis appears more developed, and "real tennis" is the English-language name, which I feel is more appropriate on the English-language version of Wikipedia. Squideshi (talk) 21:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the articles should be merged. As far as I can make out, the argument being made against a merger is that "real tennis" is always played with a racket whereas "jeu de paume" was formerly played with the hand. If there were still people today play the palm-of-the-hand "paume", then it should have a separate article. But there isnt anybody doing that: the only people who call the game they play "paume" use a racket to play it. The current non-racket games (fives, jai alai, court handball, etc) already have their articles. So the "jeu de paume" article is doing part of the job of the "history" section of the "real tennis" article. Really, there is only one article, to be called "Real tennis"; the History section of that article will mention that the game was originally played with the palm; hence the name "paume", which survived in France even after it was no longer played with the palm. There is also some co-ordination to be done with the History of tennis article; that will be easier to do after these two are merged. jnestorius^(talk) 23:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

"Jeu de Paume" should reference the present day art museum adjacent to the Louvre and reference "Real Tennis" as the game for which that building now used as a museum was originally built. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.223.47.170 (talk) 15:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose merge The article treats a subject that is not, in fact, tennis, but something more like handball which latterly became tennis. Since the game had its own distinct handball identity, it can carry an article by itself. The article also usefully discusses the Serment du jeu de paume painting as well as the Galerie nationale du Jeu de Paume. The article stands on its own feet as a clearly distinct treatment. Incorporating it into tennis would be an error of categories. — O'Dea (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tennis <= "Tenez"

The term "tennis" is thought to derive from the French word tenez, which means "take heed" — a warning from the server to the receiver.

That might have been the case in older "versions" of the French language. But in nowadays French an accurate translation of tenez - 2nd plural imperative of tenir, to hold - would be "here, take this". ... when you think about it, it still fits. However I don't know where the s sound comes from, as the z is unpronounced. This could be explained by the fact that the modern French word tennis is based on the word as used in English, a language well known for corruption of pronunciation. In any case, the link seems a little dubious. --Darrenjaguar (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

While the z is unpronounced in French today, that is a more recent development. The reason that it appears in the written word tenez is not simply to confound people learning French. Rather, that was closest to common pronounciation at the time that "official Franch spelling" rules became common. Any word that entered the English language before the 17th century has retained the currently unpronounced French sounds, so the word tennis may well be a straight French-to-English transfer. Arthur Browning (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

I've seen "real tennis" in print, but have never heard it spoken aloud. I would rather not assume that it is pronounced as in English unless so stated by a reliable source, since "real" obviously has its roots in French or even possibly Spanish. The article needs information on pronunciation near the beginning, as with other articles needing such clarification. David Spector (talk) 16:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

See the section above on "'Real tennis' a retronym?" --Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 22:01, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

"Dead Nick"

Author and date are needed for the story "Dead Nick" mentioned in the literature section. Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 22:03, 25 June 2016 (UTC)