Talk:Recep Tayyip Erdoğan/Archive 7

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A Friendly Aussie Reminder to All about Wikipedia rules and goals regarding Libellous material, Defamatory, Hate, Bias and NEUTRAL point of view/tone... Greetings to all Wikipedia community,

I wound like to Discuss and ultimately remind everyone here Wikipedia's rules and goals regarding Libellous material, Defamatory, Hate, Bias and NEUTRAL point of view/tone, in order to improve this article and in doing so improve Wikipedia as well. To start I want to thank all those in the Wikipedia Community that are unbiased and neutral throughout Wikipedia as a whole and in millions of Wikipedia articles in general, having said that I find this article in particular to be Not neutral in tone and biased,

for example statements such as "Erdogan has served sadly as one of the worst de facto leaders of Turkey since 2002.[382][383][384]" although he may be labelled as such this is factually untrue, he is obviously the lawful and legally elected president,

and the fact that Education, Health care and infrastructure since 2002 till current is summarised with few short sentences compared to multiple paragraphs even whole sections on negativity, is at best laziness, and worst case offensive, events that that at most could be included with a short sentence have been blown out of proportion, this is done to such extent within this article that one can/could/have state this article is an anti Turkish propaganda aimed at influence the west perspective of the Turkish President through a negative flavour, that i must say leaves very bad after taste...

Lets have this article point out the facts, without Libellous material, Defamatory, Hate, Bias

Bellow are my previous attempts which I believe strengthens my argument and adds character and perceptive on this issue.

The goal of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedic information source adhering to a neutral point of view, with all information being referenced through the citation of reliable published sources, so as to maintain a standard of verifiability.[1]

It is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. !!!

It is Wikipedia policy to delete libelous material when it has been identified.

I encourage all of the Wikipedia community to abide by the above rules and help, this will ensure that hate, negativity and oppression are not contributing to the evil act of dividing people and communities and negatively impact world peace...

please EVERYONE delete ANY data that is un-neutral, negative and libelous/defamatory... lets clean this page of any info that go's against Wikipedia, that promotes hate and/or negativity.....

thanks to all the wonderful Wikipedia community members who are educated enough to help...

peace and love to all...

The above is my request, but it also contained my current opinion and feedback of the current article in order to generate discussion, calibration and a reminder of rules and regulation in place by Wikipedia, with sincere intention of helping readers to better understand the scope of my opinion and help bring about a more useful discussion or possibly a constructive argument, and yes I do thank all previous wiki community members that helped last time, as mention above the current main article is extremely less offensive compared to previously, before wiki community helped, but again I feel it is still not a neutral or a balance article thus their should be discussion in a constructive manner of what is neutral, does the article have a negative bias ,which is quiet obvious from a neutral point of view, by all means I'm not saying it should all be positive all I'm asking is does contain a balance view or is it leaning towards a negative bias if so why? and how can we help improve it and eliminate the negative bias, if the situation was reversed and the article had a positive bias I would be asking the same questions, please understand the wiki community deserves an unbiased article, it should not contain either positive or negative bias but a well balanced article that does justice to rules and regulations of Wikipedia and so having quiet a lot of success last time, again I ask wiki community to up hold wiki rules and polices, and be kind to those who are new to community and may be still learning to use and express them self's correctly within this community... thanks for your patience, tolerance and understanding, cheers.203.221.109.159 (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi there @203.221.109.159: we go by what the sources tell us, and reliable sources have described him as a de facto leader -- even a dictator. Please read WP:UNDUE. You've not provided any examples of content that is "libelous", "defamatory", "hateful", "biased"... only passages from Wikipedia guidelines/policies which this article meets... so I'm not sure I can help you there. Also, please in future be concise with what you are saying -- slabs of writing repeating the same thing is difficult to read and respond. Regards, —MelbourneStar☆^talk 12:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

A word to other editors that this exact same copypasta has been inserted for years on this talk page (check archives). I'm not sure whether it's by a particularly obsessed fan or a paid bot farm, but it's been posted and rebutted so many times it should just be undone per WP:NOTHERE or WP:SPAM if it pops up again. Unknown Temptation (talk) 21:16, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Erdogan is a dictator. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The inspectore (talk • contribs) 17:01, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2021

12th number is missing on 12th president of Turkey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.52.84 (talk) 16:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't quite understand. It does say 12th in the "Presidency (2014–present)" section. Or perhaps you mean somewhere else? ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

In the info box I mean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.52.84 (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems to have been an inadvertent removal when the seals were added to the infobox - an edit that was later mostly undone - so I've restored it. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

stop edit warring

@SoaringLL:, stop you are EDIT WARRING. You are removing sourced content and calling me out for doing the same, when in reality you're the only one doing it. What is the meaning and purpose of this? ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 17:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

You are deleting a long-standing and well-sourced information on Erdogan's relationship with antisemitic novelist Necip Fazıl Kısakürek and replacing it for a stupid tweet (which is not a reliable source) by some agent of Turkish state-propaganda.--SoaringLL (talk) 01:47, 6 June 2021 (UTC) See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/יניב_הורון

@SoaringLL: hello,

1- I have never deleted anything related to Necip Fazıl Kısakürek in my edits, you can go back and check every single of them, the part about Necip Fazıl Kısakürek is still there.

2- All I did was add a tweet from the Chief Rabbinate of Jews (which is a reliable source, and not "government propaganda" as you claim. your claim falls under the category of conspiracy theories and is irrelevant for wikipedia.).

For the sake of not edit warring, I will not be interfearing further until a consensus is reached.

@Jeppiz: I request you to please check the individual edits and this talk page to help us reach a consensus from a third party view. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Adigabrek:, @SoaringLL: First, I recognise you are both acting in good faith even though you disagree. Second, you have both been edit warring and that needs to stop. Third, Adigabrek is correct that they didn't delete content and shouldn't be accused of that. Fourth, whether the tweet by the rabbinate is WP:DUE or not is a borderline call. My own feeling is that the onus would be on those who want to remove it to make a case for why it's not due. In the absence of such an argument, I would lean towards including it. Jeppiz (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I apologize. I was mistaken, since content related to Erdogan's relationship with the novelist wasn't removed. Nevertheless, it's not clear why we should add that particular quote from a Jewish government official (or semi-official under the auspices of the Turkish government) given the fact that Erdogan has made openly antisemitic statements in the past and those are not covered in text, such as accusing The New York Times of being under "Jewish capital" or something (which is laughable since the newspaper is usually biased against Israel, but whatever). It's obvious that the official rabbi of Turkey won't endanger his own community by criticizing Erdogan publically for his antisemitism, which would be suicidal (losing his job, prison or worse). Also per WP:ONUS: "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."--SoaringLL (talk) 05:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC) See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/יניב_הורון

@SoaringLL:, Hello. It is a fact that the Rabbi posted it, and why he posted it is not our concern, as we do not express our personal opinions/theories/beliefs in Wikipedia, rather we put things the way they are materially. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 20:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that. We don't include everything that everyone says, unless is pertinent and consistent with WP:due weight per NPOV. A tweet by some rabbi in Turkey is not more important than openly antisemitic remarks by Erdogan, which are not covered in article. In any case, at the beginning of section on Jews there is already a sentence stating "While Erdoğan has declared several times being against antisemitism..." so we already have a whitewashing line to balance accusations of antisemitism, there is no need to include also that boot-licking tweet by that rabbi who, I repeat myself, is merely protecting his community from an autocratic regime. It would be dangerous for him to denounce Erdogan in public, as well as foolish. The same thing happens with the representatives of the small Jewish community that's left in Iran. Everywhere else in the world, people recognize Erdogan for the antisemitic clown that he is, from Joe Biden to Netanyahu to a leftist Israeli politician from Meretz. If we put in the article some Turkish rabbi's tweet, for sure we should include also a statement on the matter by the President of the United States, don't you think? And then, if we include every statement that was made supporting or refuting the characterization of Erdogan as antisemitic, the entire section would become an encyclopedia on its own.--SoaringLL (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC) See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/יניב_הורון

"Insulting"

"Turkish prosecutors have launched investigations into a total of 128,872 citizens between 2014 and 2019 on charges of "insulting" President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan" - https://www.duvarenglish.com/nearly-129000-people-probed-for-insulting-erdogan-in-5-years-news-56834. Imo, it is also insulting to the truth that this has a mere two mentions in the article, with both examples from some time ago, and with no indication given that they are part of a much larger and still ongoing process of intimidation. The mention from 2016 says 6000 cases to date, so this is seriously out of date content that urgently needs updating. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 01:24, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Cancer claim

Early life

"In 2011, Erdogan was diagnosed with colon cancer, for which he underwent treatment and surgery.[54]"

Nordic Monitor said that Recep Tayyip Erdogan underwent surgery to remove a cancerous tumor from the anus and suffers from epilepsy which is among other possible health complications, which may explain his irregular behavior that sometimes baffles many external observers.

https://hawarnews.com/en/haber/swedish-site-erdogan-underwent-surgery-to-treat-cancer-and-suffers-from-epilepsy-h16717.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:7061:6C30:DD84:F143:3688:82CE (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The claim that Erdogan had cancer in 2011 or has it now is found only in Nordic Monitor (Media bias fact check), all other news sources that refer to this claim (search for "colon cancer") link back to Nordic Monitor. Furthermore how they obtained this information is vague "...a Nordic Monitor investigation has found". I am not saying he did not have colon cancer, he may well have had it, he did have surgery in November of that year. But the article does not show any concrete evidence of this so it should be removed. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I have removed it Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 17:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

There was also another incident where he refused to come out of a car with his attache worried and waiting as a result of having an epileptic seizure. Erdogan is also very sensitive about disclosing that he has epilepsi.

Help

Please update the image in the Infobox 2021.212.108.136.227 (talk) 13:21, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Previous image had higher resolution by a little bit, but this one has a blank background and is more recent, so IMO is better. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Human rights: consumption of alcohol

"Human rights

Under Erdoğan, the Turkish government tightened the laws on the sale and consumption of alcohol, banning all advertising and increasing the tax on alcoholic beverages.[125]"

Since when is the consumption and/or availability of alcohol a human right?

Absinthe was illegal in the US until recently, don't see claims that the US, or any US politician, was breaching human rights by having the ban. It is also banned in many other countries and curiously does not appear as a 'human rights' issue for these countries, or for politicians of these countries.

This should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Furbian (talk • contribs) 16:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

prime minister

Ahmet Davutoğlu and Binali Yıldırım are missing in the infobox where it says prime minister vacant. They both served as PM under president erdogan please add them.194.146.158.244 (talk) 20:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not about who served under him, the template {{Infobox officeholder}} is about who was the office holder at the time of assuming office. It generally makes sense in deputies' infobox to mention higher office holders; doesn't work as well to note deputies in superior's infobox. It was removed specifically as a cleanup in this edit. Perhaps, TheBirdsShedTears, primeminister1 entry can be removed completely there? hemantha (brief) 04:18, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@194.146.158.244: primeminister parm is about to show current/incumbent prime minister. It is not about former ministers. In case Erdoğan leaves his presidential office, all the prime ministers who served under him should be included. Hemantha, I think Infobox should provide up-to-date information for an incumbent officeholder. The present status is "vacant" and it should be kept (probably not a good idea). TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 06:17, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Presidential Complex (Turkey).png

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Add the opinion (of others) that Erdoğan might not be doing everything right but that he’s suitable for the job as his country is rather interesting to run. It is said that lots of internal affairs are going on but at least he’s keeping peace in terms of international affairs. His country is a location where anything can happen nearby and the people there make it so the country needs to be run carefully, according to others. Every decision is crucial and due to criticism & the structure of turkey, Erdoğan tries to be a balancer and unbiased. He’s the man keeling the country together, even when it’s not that steady. Rephrase what I wrote above and add this to one of the categories 2601:19B:C501:E330:B029:13E9:2D88:52B4 (talk) 05:26, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

Add the opinion (of others) that Erdoğan might not be doing everything right but that he’s suitable for the job as his country is rather interesting to run. It is said that lots of internal affairs are going on but at least he’s keeping peace in terms of international affairs. His country is a location where anything can happen nearby and the people there make it so the country needs to be run carefully, according to others. Every decision is crucial and due to criticism & the structure of turkey, Erdoğan tries to be a balancer and unbiased. He’s the man keeling the country together, even when it’s not that steady. Rephrase what I wrote above and add this to one of the categories 2601:19B:C501:E330:B029:13E9:2D88:52B4 (talk) 05:26, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. So you basically want someone to write that being president is a hard job, particularly so in Turkey's case. Not sure that this would be a worthwhile addition even if you had a reliable source stating so Cannolis (talk) 06:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Excessively long header?

The header seems very long to me. There is of course a lot to say about someone with such a long political life, but the header gives the impression of having grown organically over time and would benefit from some summarizing. 128.171.111.159 (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

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Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

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Place of birth

President Erdogan's birthplace is stated as Istanbul province in Presidency and AK Party sources. But in his early years and education department, it was written as he was born in Güneysu, Rize and moved to Istanbul. Fatihoztrk950 (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Spelling style

Looking at the spelling style in the article, it was mixed. It seemed most consistent with Oxford spelling, so I labelled it with {{Use Oxford spelling}} and began adjusting it to be more consistent in that direction (see this diff). However, it also contained some distinctly American spelling, and a bit of non-Oxford British spelling. Which variety of English spelling is most used in Turkey? I notice that at least one web page published by the Turkish government (found here) uses the distinctly American spelling of labor. Another recent government pronouncement (found here) contains both finalization and instrumentalised in the same sentence. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

• @BarrelProof: While the government doesn't seem to have a clear and consistent preference, there's a slight tendency towards using the American spellings. – anlztrk (talk) 10:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Spelling style

Looking at the spelling style in the article, it was mixed. It seemed most consistent with Oxford spelling, so I labelled it with {{Use Oxford spelling}} and began adjusting it to be more consistent in that direction (see this diff). However, it also contained some distinctly American spelling, and a bit of non-Oxford British spelling. Which variety of English spelling is most used in Turkey? I notice that at least one web page published by the Turkish government (found here) uses the distinctly American spelling of labor. Another recent government pronouncement (found here) contains both finalization and instrumentalised in the same sentence. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

• @BarrelProof: While the government doesn't seem to have a clear and consistent preference, there's a slight tendency towards using the American spellings. – anlztrk (talk) 10:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 1 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WP:SNOWCLOSE. Clear consensus that this page should not be moved, enough said. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:19, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

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Recep Tayyip Erdoğan → Tayyip Erdoğan – The name 'Recep' is only a forename, can and often is omitted in mentions of him, no other notable Tayyip Erdoğan exists so it's clearly the primary topic and needs no disambiguation. – anlztrk (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose not sure what this rationale is based on - English news sources consistently refer to him either by the full name or surname only. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 11:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, clearly the commonly used name. --T*U (talk) 12:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per others and snow close. Killuminator (talk) 14:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. I did not see a source that used Tayyip Erdoğan alone. Parham wiki (talk) 17:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose move. "Recep" is commonly used as part of his name. O.N.R. ^(talk) 23:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per all above Shadow4dark (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Phonetic transcription of name?

Could someone with knowledge of Turkish and Turkish orthography please add a phonetic transcription to the lede of this article? - Dπ (talk) 12:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The transcription was already present in the note after his name in the lead. You can find it there. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2023

Decouple number of foreign visits between Taiwan and China. Effectively, change the number of Erdogan's visits to Taiwan as zero, rather than five visits he has made to mainland China.

Danielfarzan1 (talk) 21:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used. Pinchme123 (talk) 14:02, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Name in Arabic script

His name was presented in Arabic script (loosely transliterates to Tayyab Rajab Erdoan), which was easily readable by most Muslims who can read Arabic script (i.e. the Quran), read and understand English, by default the entire Arabic-speaking world who can speak English and those of the 240 million people of Pakistan who can speak English. I form part of the first group. However, as nearly all of these cannot read Turkish, unless they learn some Turkish, they have no idea what Turkish sounds like phonetically and hence it looks awkward to pronounce. Have not found a discussion covering its removal, but it seems to defy logic to remove a simple three word text that helped so many, such as myself. Wikipedia should be making texts more accessible, not less. Furbian (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)