Talk:Reckful

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... it is no different than the page for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Schenkhuizen, for example. Title can (probably should) be changed from gaming name "Reckful" to "Byron Bernstein", if necessary. Professional gamers are growing in importance -- more references will be added. As an example of his place in the gaming community, this player has a YouTube video of PC gaming play with more views than any other professional gamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU8pOwuqt3k) -- YouTube link will probably not be included on wikipedia page because it may appear unprofessional. --Alluredemon (talk) 23:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2020

he died on 7/2/2020 (today) because he suicided so can you update the page and change all the is to was StarBlazerW (talk) 16:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Have to wait for a reliable, official source. Twitter hearsay isn't enough, even if it looks like it is very likely true. We have to adhere to WP:BLP OohBunnies! (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

There are already news sites reporting this: https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/twitch-streamer-reckful-reportedly-commits-suicide-1387577 Of course, the source is the tweets from his ex. So far, no one is saying he's still alive though. Cal1gula (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

A second article reporting this as suicide. https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020/07/byron-bernstein-reckful-dead/ Cal1gula (talk) 16:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

An esports site and a tabloid simply repeating what was said on twitter isn't a reliable source either. There will be some kind of official confirmation that can be used as a source soon enough. Please be patient. OohBunnies! (talk) 17:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Agreed with OohBunnies. We should not rush to be the first to report a person dead, especially when the only supporting evidence comes in the form of tweets. When and if the reliable sources verify his death, we can update the page. There is no harm to being a little late to report someone has actually passed away, but there certainly is potential harm in inaccurately reporting someone's death. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Here's Sunday Express reporting it. LΞVIXIUS💬 17:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

He died. Multiple sources have now confirmed this. Protecting the page to keep it out of date seems like a poor, typical abuse of administrative powers. GenericWikipedian19 (talk) 17:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@GenericWikipedian19: Please provide your sources. If they're just poor-quality secondary sources reporting that someone tweeted that he died, those will not suffice. It is not admin abuse to protect a page from making controversial claims about a WP:BLP (which applies to recently-deceased people as well, if that is the case) without reliable sources. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

'Poor quality secondary sources' like blue-checked Twitter accounts. Amazing. So it is good enough for The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal, but not good enough for Wikipedia, the great bastion of neutrality and factual veracity. GenericWikipedian19 (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

"Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." - from WP:BLPSPS. Biographies of living people and recently deceased people have stricter rules for editing because of possible legal ramifications and the potential to cause harm. News websites can report what was said on Twitter, but Wikipedia isn't a news website, it's an encyclopedia. OohBunnies! (talk) 17:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The tweet in question admittedly looks legit but it might've been sent by a compromised account. It would be prudent to (at minimum) wait for confirmation by a family member. 78.28.44.111 (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait for the source from the person who committed suicide??? That's a pretty silly policy Wikipedia. Anyway, his roommate has confirmed this, and multiple news sites. I don't know what else could be needed here. Cal1gula (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

What? Where did anyone say that? All we are asking for is a more reliable source than low-quality media sources repeating "so and so tweeted that Reckful has died". Often that is in the form of a higher-quality media source reporting confirmation from a family member. Occasionally a reliable source will decide that someone like a roommate is sufficiently reliable to report that the person has died without couching it in terms like "according to his roommate" or "has reportedly", in which case we could potentially use it, but we cannot ourselves make the judgment that the roommate is a reliable source. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:55, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Man I heard Wikipedia admins were obnoxious but I guess I had to experience it directly. The dude died. His exes are tweeting it. His roommate is tweeting it. News sites are reporting it. Wikipedia is waiting for a tweet from a dead guy. Absurd.Cal1gula (talk) 18:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

They're not waiting for a tweet from a dead guy, they're waiting for confirmation from a source that we consider to be reliable. Before you mention his room mate or other websites again, please see WP:RS for an explanation of what we mean by this. Just be patient, there's no rush. Also please don't name-call. — Richard BB 18:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Newsweek is now reporting his death, though they are still using the "reportedly dead" wording: [1] GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Must be a trustworthy source, because an admin posted it, of course! I hope you all see the ridiculousness here.Cal1gula (talk) 18:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

As more sources come out and these things develop, Wikipedians come to a consensus on what is sufficient sourcing for us to confidently say he has passed away. This is what we are doing here, and your snarky comments are not helpful. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

From my perspective, I posted links to sites that actually report on news related to e-sports and people like Reckful in general. Newsweek posting it doesn't convince me at all. They obviously just picked up a hot story, they copied the same exact tweets that have already been linked in other articles. So this process has been pretty discouraging. It doesn't appear that regular users updates to Wikipedia are taken seriously. But it appears the admins prefer to listen to each other--only.Cal1gula (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I could see how you might be discouraged if I had unilaterally changed the article to report his death based on the Newsweek source. However all I did was put a link to the source here so people could review it -- I said myself that they are still using the "reportedly" wording, which I don't think is sufficient to make the change. In case it was not clear, I am not advocating for the article to report his death based on the Newsweek source, because they too are only reporting what others have tweeted -- I was just including it here so that others are aware that more reliable sources (than Express.co.uk, Heavy, etc.) are reporting it as well.

I suspect the reason you were not being taken seriously is because you were arguing a straw man that Reckful himself needs to have tweeted from beyond the grave, which no one on this page has said. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me? To quote yourself "All we are asking for is a more reliable source than low-quality media sources repeating "so and so tweeted that Reckful has died"." and then you went on and posted that exact thing, a media source repeating twitter. The only difference was, you quoted Newsweek, who quoted the same tweets from the articles I posted! Again, very discouraging to try to help out with Wikipedia unless you're an admin.Cal1gula (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what isn't getting through here. If I thought the Newsweek source was sufficient, I would have made the change to the article body. I do not, and so I did not. I posted the source here for discussion, since Newsweek is certainly more reliable than Express.co.uk and others, but I don't think they have confirmed the death sufficiently for us to update the article to claim he has certainly died. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:42, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I used the Newsweek source, had my edits reverted and then found this chat. I understand (and agree with) the reasoning for the reversion; I should've analyzed the source more closely. Tbh, I'm kind of depressed that this seems to be yet another example of a respected media outlet descending into the domain of mining social media for stories without doing any confirmation of its own (aka "its job"). :sigh: -- Hux (talk) 18:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Forbes is a reliable source, and it has reported his death in an article. The have called his death "confirmed." :[2] 50.83.119.63 (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe this is usable, see FORBESCON. Forbes.com contributor articles should never be used for third-party claims about living persons. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: I requested temp. full protection at RFPP (and messed up the ping FYI'ing you!) ——Serial ^# 18:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Appreciate the FYI! I'll let someone else make that determination now that I'm helping field requests here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Noting also that There is consensus that Heavy.com should not be relied upon for any serious or contentious statements per WP:RSP. ——Serial ^# 18:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Kotaku is now reporting his death without couching it in the "reportedly" wording: [3]. I think this is usable. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Reckfuls twitch channel https://www.twitch.tv/reckful has been playing historical videos, and for the past 2 hours the title has been "RIP Reckful - Playing old VODs". So if you're looking for his *own* social media to report it, that's probably about as close as you will get.Cal1gula (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I genuinely don't know how to be clearer that we are not looking for the ghost of Reckful to confirm his own death. The reliable sources are sufficient. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed edit-requests
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Right, but you're looking for sources that you, personally, and collectively as administrators of this website, hold in high regard. Not any kind of legitimate rule set, apparently. Anyway, this is still an incredible exercise in frustration and I don't foresee trying again. Which I'm sure will be a relief for you. Good day, and good luck with figuring out the truth here.Cal1gula (talk) 19:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 He's dead as of today. 94.1.69.153 (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)  Not done This requires a reliable source. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Is this a reliable source? No confirmation as of yet. https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/twitch-streamer-reckful-reportedly-commits-suicide-1387577 Nusent 17:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 add death date July 2nd 2020 2A02:587:3A19:1935:881:26A6:FE27:E7AA (talk) 17:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC) No reliable source provided. ——Serial # 17:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 2A01:CB05:8600:3E00:A96A:880D:715A:227A (talk) 17:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC) “He was a streamer - he is dead the 2th july 2020 - by suicide”: No reliable source provided. ——Serial # 17:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 He has committed suicide, needs to be changed to past tense Hgh19 (talk) 17:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC) No reliable source provided. ——Serial # 17:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 Reckful passed away on 2020/07/02. Confirmation: https://twitter.com/BlueGoesMew/status/1278714557565767680 https://twitter.com/BlueGoesMew/status/1278721393828327425 https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1278732395756355586 Akoolguy (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC) No reliable source provided—Twitter is user-generated. Await official confirmation. ——Serial # 17:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 Death 7/2/2020 Suicide Aggrothehorse (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC) No reliable source provided. ——Serial # 18:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 change "is" to "was" Qwertzniki6 (talk) 18:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Needs a reliable source. See discussions above. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 Reckful has been confirmed dead as of July 2, 2019 2604:3D08:4680:9400:60C9:C78E:D990:441A (talk) 18:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Needs a reliable source. See discussions above. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020 Reckful has died and the information does not include his death 108.29.131.211 (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC) Needs a reliable source. See discussions above. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Passing sources confirmed

• Newsweek
• Express.uk
• The Inquisitr

These sources are all reliable. This is confirmation. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 18:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valoem: Newsweek has only said that he is "reportedly" dead and repeated the tweets, which I have brought up above for discussion around whether that's sufficient to make the claim. Express.co.uk is a tabloid, and Inquisitr is a news aggregator; neither is reliable. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: The strongest source I provided is The Inquisitr. Which says in the opening paragraph and sentence:

“ Byron “Reckful” Bernstein has died.

The popular Twitch streamer and profession eSports competitor passed away on Thursday, many close to him have confirmed online, including gaming journalist Rod Breslau. Bernstein’s cause of death has not yet been confirmed but many close to him are suspecting that he may have died by suicide.

”

Valoem ^{talk contrib} 18:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

From what I can tell at WP:RSN, Inquisitr is a news aggregator and should not be used directly. The sources the Inquisitr is repeating are various tweets and the Dexterto source, none of which are usable. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: I am an established editor, it was confirmed by gaming journalist Rod Breslau. I know about what I edit. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 18:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valoem: Since you are an established editor you will understand why those sources were not usable. I am an established editor as well; we still have to abide by Wikipedia's sourcing policies just as anyone else. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Please do not continue to edit war tabloid sources into the article; it is unacceptable to use those in general but especially for claims that a person has died. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

That was an error in reverting. I add sources as they come but when I keep getting reverted it makes a more difficult as this subject is rapidly trending. There is now a Forbes source please given editors time to edit a subject this is inherently a core principle of AGF. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 19:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

As I said above, that Forbes source is unusable: WP:FORBESCON. I see someone else has already reverted. Frankly the onus is on you to not repeat errors that introduce unreliable sources into BLP articles. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valoem: I don't think we should jump to conclusions. Are Newsweek, Express, and The Inquisitr sufficiently reliable? We should give this a couple of weeks to make sure. We don't want to damage Wikipedia's reputation for factual veracity, neutrality, and respect for living individuals. WP:BLP is certainly not selectively adhered to here. GenericWikipedian19 (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Standard procedure is to update death information when reliable sources confirm it. Sources such as Kotaku and Game Revolution have confirmed this. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 19:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2020

He is born in L.A and not Tel Aviv, see https://www.twitch.tv/videos/640057509?t=1h02m30s 51.154.8.177 (talk) 01:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Twitch is generally not considered a reliable source Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eggishorn: What's your opinion on the currently used source for his place of birth (a random YouTube video), added in this edit? Is it really better than the Twitch VoD linked to above in which Reckful himself explains where he was born? 78.28.44.111 (talk) 03:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Removed per WP:BLP (which applies to the recently-deceased). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Eggishorn, does the Twitch video not fall under WP:BLPSELFPUB? — Ruyter (talk • edits) 09:22, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

How is a video of the person himself saying he is born in L.A not a viable source? Are you suggesting that he is lying in that video? |answered=no 51.154.8.177 (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

 Note: re-closing this, as it was reopened by User:Cal1gula with no comment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Reopening this as clearly there are outstanding unanswered questions... Why is a video of the person himself stating his own birthday not an acceptable source?

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

In addition to that video where he's clearly saying he was born in LA, here is an image from his father's site (last one) that shows they were in LA in 1989: https://bernsteinitamar.wixsite.com/itamar-bernstein/page4 Tehonk (talk) 00:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Due to "online shaming"?

This article states that his death was due to "online shaming" as well as depression. Is there any proof of this? If not, the claim should be removed.

Removed. — Ruyter (talk • edits) 22:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The Pc police is censoring the info. Everyone knows he was shamed to death. The depression surely helped though --Bageense^(disc.) 02:02, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Birthdate

I'm pretty sure the subject's birthdate has been determined by calculating when his older brother passed away. As articles conveyed that the subject was 6 years old when his brother committed suicide. So what can be done in order to remove the tag? as it may end up there forever unless a notable, verified publisher comes along with the actual age. Delta fiver (talk) (UTC) 22:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

As is the case with just about every single e-celebrity, his date of birth's common knowledge. He did a birthday stream every year, there are plenty of tweets from people wishing him happy birthday every year, all celebrity bio sites (including liquipedia which is somewhat reliable) list the same date, etc. The {{cn}} can be removed as per WP:FACTS imo. Not everything needs a specific source. 78.28.44.111 (talk) 14:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly my point here, adding in a citation needed tag is of no use and shouldn't have been there to begin with, but I wanted another perspective on the issue before taking it down, which I have got now. Delta fiver (talk) (UTC) 15:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Personal blog

Apparently Bernstein kept a personal blog as a teenager (between 2004 and 2009) that's still online (Byron livejournal).

There is one entry from 2004 that confirm his older brother's suicide in 1995 - src. The blog appears to be authentic given the pictures of Bernstein and at least one image credited to Judy Bernstein (link) (supposedly his mother?)

Didn't want to include this as a reference since I'm still not sure whether it qualifies as a reliable source. Yellowsnes (talk) 20:23, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Suicide - reporting guidelines

Regarding the topic on whether to use the phrase "committed suicide" vs "died by suicide". Mental health organizations recommend using the latter in their guidelines when reporting on suicide. . Yellowsnes (talk) 11:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

References

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Reckful 2020 2.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

World of Warcraft NPC

Apparently, Blizzard have added a commemorative rogue trainer NPC named Reckful (pic) to the Cathedral of Light in Stormwind and many publications have picked up on it.

• https://kotaku.com/world-of-warcraft-adds-npc-memorial-honoring-twitch-str-1844631499
• https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/6/21356968/world-of-warcraft-reckful-tribute-shadowlands
• https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/shadowlands-reckful
• https://www.gamespot.com/articles/world-of-warcraft-honors-late-player-reckful-in-sh/1100-6480657/