Talk:Recurring characters in the Aubrey–Maturin series

New Character article

I would put this in place and let us all bring it on. Particularly in need of inline references.

All right, but we will have to clean it up a bit. I assume you want inline refs for specific details? Last thing, should we create a separate page for this? It's pretty long. --Joelmills 22:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes - references for specific characteristics mentioned. This is long enough (and will grow) to be a brand new article. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

A good start. I propose that full names be included where ever possible. I'm trying to track down Maturin's full Spanish name, but I forget in which book it's mentioned (Post Captain?). Also, I don't believe Jagiello had an affair with Diana; Maturin merely suspected it. Konczewski 15:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Esteban Maturin y Domanova .. mentioned in / constructable from several places .. The Surgeon's Mate, for example - and later on in Blue At The Mizzen.

Jagiello and Diana - Maturin received several anonymous letters (probably from Wray) with detailed descriptions of where they were doing it (behind a church altar for example) - as you can see in The Thirteen Gun Salute / Nutmeg etc. She did run away with Jagiello to Sweden - though whatever it was seems to have fizzled out as Jagiello was engaged to a quite "suitable" young woman srs 15:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Diana herself denies that she ever had any non-platonic relations with Jagiello, and she admitted her relations with Johnson and Canning. On the other hand, her definition of platonic and Stephen's might be different. I think O'Brian deliberately left the nature of Jagiello and Diana's relationship ambiguous. --Badger151 17:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, going by memory, I think those letters were faked by enemies of Maturin, in an effort to compromise his intelligence work. Konczewski 20:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Order here, order...

Anyone have any thoughts on how to organize this page? It seems rather random at present. --Badger151 18:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

How about Aubrey's family, then crewmembers, then other misc. characters? Konczewski 20:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Aubrey, Maturin right at the start would be a good thing. With Sophie and Diana's profiles right after their husbands. Followed by their regular crew members - Killick and Bonden certainly, plus other key crew like Pullings, Babbington, Mowett, Reade, Padeen, etc. Then start a new misc recurring section split into family, crew, others .. (Joseph Blaine, Clarissa Oakes, Ledward, Wray, Jagiello, Prince William, etc). Whatever we do its going to be one helluva long list. srs 05:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't you want to limit it to characters that figure in at least two novels? Sure, Prince William is mentioned, but what does he actually do in the novels? Maybe there should be a list of minor characters, seperate from this one.Konczewski 17:20, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Let's get started with organizing this first.

Attempt at order made. --Joelmills 03:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Works for me. But I could swear that Jagiello was only accused of having an affair with Diana; I don't think he consumated the affair. I'm re-reading the books now, so I'll check.Konczewski 02:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow - looks good; people are much easier to find now. Regarding Jagiello, I really think that there is some deliberate ambiguity, for the reasons I mention above, but also becasue of Jagiello's reactions on encountering him in Letter of Marque. Using Norton's paperback edition (ISBN:0-393-30905-3), on p268 O'Brian says "Jagiello recognised [Stephen] at once; for a moment his first look of astonished delight changed to one of extreme reserve, but then his potential adversary came forward, took him affectionately by the hand...". I think Jagiello recognises that Stephen may believe that he (Jagiello) has cuckolded him (Stephen), but whether we can state anything further I don't know. Diana seems to have a similar recognition of what appearances are.

The most telling statement made by anyone, though, I think is made by Sir Joseph, who on p121 of the same volume says "I also gathered, though ... I cannot assert that my assumptions are correct ... that relations between [Jagiello] and Mrs Maturin were ... not what they were ordinarily assumed to be" (what I have cut is the hesitations and false starts Sir Joseph makes as he tries to address this difficult issue.) He then goes on to say, some paragraphs later, that "you may think the absence of any tattle or rumour in such a place as present-day Sweeden tollerably significant." Personally, I don't think they had an affair, but I'm not so convinced as to say that they absolutely could not have had one. --Badger151 16:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Blaine

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/fall_winter_2001/article10.html suggests that he and his role were entirely fictional and an anachronism - the canon is set during the napoleonic wars, and the sort of post Sir Joseph occupies only came into the Royal Navy around the late 1880s.

Screenshots from movie

I would love to get screenshots from the movie in order to have a picture of the character next to their description, but I'm damned if I can figure out how to do it. Anyone know how? --Joelmills 02:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Read the wikipedia images policy. It doesnt allow you to upload copyrighted images (and I imagine Peter Weir, and the studio - i think 20th century fox - own copyright for all that), or reference externally linked images in the article. Basically youre SOL if you want to do that.

After a closer reading of the image use policy, I see it says, As a general rule of thumb, Wikipedia allows low-resolution images of copyrighted material if they are unlikely to affect the potential market for the material, are used for the purposes of analysis or criticism, and for which there is no alternative, non- or free-copyrighted replacement available. However, I think you are right and use of a screenshot just for illustration of a character probably does not qualify as fair use. Too bad, really. I got the idea after seeing that the Harry Potter folks had done it. --Joelmills 02:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Page referrences

I've seen page numbers next to some of the information here, which is a good thing, but presents us with a problem: which version/printing do these refer to? I myself have M&C in both the Norton printing and in another contemporary printing (I forget by who), and the pagination is different. --Badger151 04:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I've really been meaning to get to the references. I started out with a footnote style, but I think inline refs with page numbers is the way to go, since it looks better. As to the proper edition to use, I would vote for Norton for two reasons. It seems to be the most common edition, and it's the one I have, which would make my life easier. A simple note at the beginning of the article about the edition used would remove any ambiguity. --Joelmills 23:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

No one else seems to have an opinion, so since I agree with you, I added a note to that effect to the top of the article. --Badger151 04:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Willam Reade's arm/hand: continuity

If I remember correctly, Reade looses his arm at the end of The Thirteen Gun Salute, due to injuries he sustained during the battle with the sea Dyaks. Stephen says something such as "I have just take Reade's arm off at the shoulder." I seem to also remember either Stephen or Jack musing that Reade, having lost an arm, had less body into which he could dilute alcohol - his tollerance was low because of his lost arm. In later novels, though, it seems more like he has only lost his hand, as if Mr O'Brian either forgot or decided to forget that the loss was this severe. I have changed the page to reflect this. --Badger151 05:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Past or present tense?

Which we use doesn't matter to me, but we should pick one. Perhaps someone who made more contributions than I has an opinion? --Badger151 05:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be mainly in the present tense as it is. Not sure what the proper tense to use is, but I would suggest sticking with the present tense unless someone else can come up with a good reason not to. --Joelmills 23:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bonden

I concur that Bonden ought to be merged into this article. I think it would also be important to note that Bonden and the other ratings in the book should be written to provide a perspective on the lower class part of Georgian society. V. Joe 21:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Bonden article should be merged inot this one - Canadian Osprey 03:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely; merge them. Bonden is a recurring character in the series, he already has an entry in this article that is almost as long as the Barrett Bonden page, and most of the information on that page is already also on this page. If this page grows too large, he is a major enough character that we might then want to give him his own page, but we can jump off that bridge when (if) we get to it.

I also note that there are short pages on Jack Aubrey and on Stephen Maturin - the pages are shorter than Bonden's page, and shorter than the corresponding sections on this page. If these pages on Jack and Stephen can be fleshed out enough, they may deserve to exist as independant pages, but for the moment, I'd say merge them into this one, too. --Badger151 07:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

One technical question, though: Maturin's page bears the category "fictional physicians," or something very like; can that category be connected to his section in this article? --Badger151 19:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Bonden's prizefight on land was fascinating, and a reference to that and his boxing ability would be welcome. Unfortunately, I can't remember which novel it appears in.Voiceperson (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Davies

Described as black .. at least in O'Brian's usage (and you'll find him describing other men as Black as well, it simply means "dark haired, with dark eyes" rather than blond / redheaded and with blue / gray eyed. White all right. You'll find negro hands and such tagged with "darkie" or similar nicknames, and in the case of, for example, Sam Panda, or John Square the Krooman, you'll find their skin described as dark / black.

Missing characters

I think we need to add the following characters:

• Clarissa Oakes
• Sarah and Emily (the two native girls adopted by the Surprise)

Agreed. I added them.Voiceperson (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• Dutourd (he's in "The Wine Dark Sea"

Does anyone else thing we should expand the main articles on Jack and Stephen, then edit the entries here? Konczewski 16:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I added Clarissa Oakes.Konczewski 18:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

great entry - how she was overlooked till now is beyond me. --Badger151 07:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard Canning

Richard Canning, a rival for the affections of Diana Villiers, in Post Captain and HMS Surprise.

Proposed entry for Richard Canning

Canning is a wealthy, intelligent, charming merchant. In Post Captain Aubrey and Maturin's friendship almost ends in a duel, when they both try to pursue Diana Villiers. Villiers rejects both of them, even though they are both single, choosing instead to be mistress to the wealthy but married Canning. In HMS Surprise, after his happy marriage to Villier's much milder cousin Sophia, Aubrey thinks an invitation to join him on a long expedition to India will distract Maturin from his severe depression over Villier's rejection. He is unaware that Canning has taken Villiers with him when he takes his own appointment to a position of influence in India. At first Canning welcomes Aubrey and Maturin, pouring on his usual charm, and arranging for Aubrey to transport "plate", ie East India Company treasure, which Aubrey explains to Maturin will enrich him - like prize money, except the crew doesn't get a share. When Canning realizes Maturin is making a serious effort to win the affection of Villiers they clash. At first the Surprise's Marine officer agrees to be his second, during the duel, only to remember that Canning is Jewish. He assures Maturin that he doesn't have to fight a Jew. Instead he proposes his men ram a rasher of bacon down Canning's throat, and ride him on a rail. They do fight, and Canning's shot to his ribs causes Maturin to miss his aim, and he kills Canning, whom he meant to spare. Villiers wants to voyage home on board Surprise and nurse Maturin, whose wound has left him delirious. Aubrey, who regards her as a bad inflence on Maturin, refuses, so she agrees to sail off to be the mistress to rich American slave-owner, Johnston.

It looks fine to add to the article. --Prairieplant (talk) 06:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Nathaniel Martin

I don't entirely know what the following, which I cut from Martin's entery, is supposed to mean, but I didn't want to delete it entirely. This appeared near the end of the entery, and concerned the end of Martin's career at sea: "is first threatened by a condemnation of The Wine-Dark Sea," Is this supposed to relate to his pamphlet, in which he condemns some of the Royal Navy's practices? -Badger151 07:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Diana Villiers

I think that this article's association of Diana with the wife of the 4th Earl of Jersey (i.e., Frances Twysden, mistress of the Prince of Wales) is incorrect. It would have been the wife of the 5th Earl, Lady Sarah Sophia Fane.

First, the speculation that her name is somehow a tribute to Lady Jersey cannot be correct. Villiers is Diana's married name, and she specifically refers to "my cousin Jersey" at least once. That would be the then-current Earl of Jersey, who was the 5th Earl, not the 4th (who died in 1805). The fact that he still acknowledges her as his cousin, although she is actually the widow of his cousin (who was, by implication, a male-line descendant of an earlier Earl of Jersey), indicates that her reputation has not been signficantly damaged.

The 5th Earl of Jersey's wife, i.e., Lady Jersey, was Lady Sarah Sophia Fane. As Countess of Jersey she was an enormously influential hostess. She was in many ways the opposite of her mother in law, rather strait-laced than notorious, and supported the Queen (as a wronged woman) during her divorce trial in 1820. When Diana was a part of Lady Jersey's "set," it indicates not that she is a fallen woman, but that she is moving in the highest eschelons of society.

After 1805, Frances was known as the Dowager Countess of Jersey. She was 51 when she was widowed, and survived until 1821, when she died at age 68. Sarah, on the other hand, was 20 in 1805 and therefore Diana's contemporary.

I am posting this here rather than making changes unilaterally in part because I do not have the Aubrey-Maturin books handy and I would appreciate it if someone else can confirm the dates for me. As I recall, the series starts in 1800 and Diana was introduced circa 1805. What was Diana's birthdate? Laura1822 16:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Post Captain takes place between the Treaty of Amiens (March 25, 1802) and the capture of the Spanish treasure fleet on Oct. 5, 1804 (see HMS Indefatigable (1784)). Also, Stephen stated the fact that she was the Prince of Wales's mistress in an internal dialogue. Ipankonin 01:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge or link to main character articles?

There appear to be independent articles for at least the following characters (I haven't checked them all): Jack Aubrey, Stephen Maturin, Diana Villiers. It seems like there should be some coordination between this page and those. Also, it's a bit ambiguous whether this "Recurring characters" page is meant to be an article or a list. (It's not titled "List of ..." and doesn't look like one, but it does start out, "This is a list of ...") It's not obvious therefore how the various pages ought to be cross-referenced (or merged?).

Langrel 00:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Duke of Habachtsthal

Is it stated that the Duke is a lover of Wray and Ledward, as written in this article?Voiceperson (talk) 17:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarisa says as much --Badger151 (talk) 03:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Amos Jacob

Dr. Jacob certainly seems to be worthy of inclusion here among the shipmates category, he appears in two full books and plays quite an important role in both. I've written a short summary of his character, let me know what you think.

Amos Jacob is a Jewish physician, intelligence-agent and naturalist who appears first in The Hundred Days. He is close friends with Maturin, and it is clear that they knew each other long before Dr. Jacob was introduced in the series. As Maturin's assistant surgeon and fellow naturalist, he plays a similar role to Martin, though as a physician he is much more medically competent and he often assists Maturin in his covert activities, using his previous profession as a jewel merchant as a cover. He is well liked by the hands of the Surprise both for his medical talent and for bringing a 'Hand of Glory' (a preserved hand taken from an executed criminal), which is considered a lucky charm and is used by the crew to explain their subsequent success.

I'm not much of a writer (though the facts here are all correct) so any suggestions on how to improve on this would be welcome. Drunaii (talk) 05:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Heneage Dundas

This article presently has a link to George Heneage Dundas and then says he is a son of Henry Dundas, 1st Viscount Melville and brother of Robert Dundas, 2nd Viscount Melville, when in fact he was son of Thomas Dundas, 1st Baron Dundas and brother of Lawrence Dundas, 1st Earl of Zetland. Is the article erring in mentioning the relationship with the Melvilles, or in identifying a fictional character with the historical person? Opera hat (talk) 01:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Bees, etc.

The article says that it's "due to the crew's respect for Stephen's talents as a physician and natural philosopher" that they tolerate him bringing things like bees, etc., aboard but I believe it should be added that a large part of their tolerance is that, as stated many times, he's the Captain's particular friend. When he and Jack were to duel he realized how much the crew's regard for him was due to their respect for Jack. 174.89.28.47 (talk) 18:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

add Patrick O'Brian's work box to the end of this article?

Could the box that ends each article about a novel in the series be added to this article? It would be a handy reference to the sequence of the novels in discussing when characters enter and leave the series, and possibly decrease the amount of the linking to the novels as each is mentioned several times in describing the recurring characters. I realized other books than Aubrey-Maturin series are included in the box, but the Aubrey-Maturin series is clearly marked. I have not dealt with those boxes before. Can I simply copy the line of code that produces the box at the bottom of the other articles and place it here? Would there be objections to that? --Prairieplant (talk) 14:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I did it when I saw that this article is part of that box, so how do you like it? --Prairieplant (talk) 14:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)