Talk:Red Nation (Namibia)

Genocide in Herero and Nama

The following appears in history section regarding [Red_Nation_(Namibia)#German_colonial_period|[the German colonial period]]: "This extermination of Herero and Nama has been described as genocide.".

I researched a bit on the background of the word 'genocide' to ensure I wasn't mistaken about the meaning; I used the [definition of 'genocide'], as well as the discussion on various definitions of 'Genocide' here on wikipedia, especially, the legal definition from an accepted UN General Assembly resolution Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG):

Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

— Article 2, CPPCG

So, several thoughts hit me immediately, although, I have no way to make myself comfortable enough to make such a change, at present I hope that (either) there is an editor out there that's willing to make it; or at least several other editors with input on the matter so I can gauge consensus.

• if the information in reliable sources justifies calling the killings 'exterminations', then the killings should simply be called 'genocide' as the way it's worded doing so would gives undue weight to any contention that they were not, genocide; especially if there is not a reliable sources saying that there is any disagreement.
• if the information in reliable sources does *not* justified calling the killing, that also seems to me to imply that calling them 'exterminations' would be POV, as extermination, when used in this sense, I believe would just be a subset of genocide: "Thousands of people, including women and children, died in these concentration camps from illness, neglect, and malnutrition.[7] This extermination of Herero and Nama has been described as genocide."

So, I think my default choice would be to say something like "...which led to the genocide of thousands of..." or so, unless enough outweighing reliable sources say either that there's a disagreement as to whether this was genocide, in which case the word 'extermination' should be removed and replaced with something like 'the killings' Shelleybutterfly (talk) 21:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Shelleybutterfly, just to check if I understand you correctly: You object to the phrase "has been described as genocide" because that phrase leaves open the possibility that it wasn't?

In this case, well, there are a few arguments, notably the current German government not admitting to it and taking a position that Lothar von Trotha overstepped his competencies when giving the extermination order. There is no doubt, though, that he gave it. Even right-wing Germans today would probably not doubt that it was a genocide, so if you feel you have a better wording, just put it in. --Pgallert (talk) 12:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

hey! i see i'm 10 years behind on responding, but since "extermination" has been removed anyway, and the weasel words "has been described as" have been removed/an article about the genocide linked, all my objections have been resolved. thanks for taking care of that @Pgallert. lisa butterfly (talk) 06:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

"Attack"

Some Herero attacked the SWA-Germans and not the other way round. Stop forging history. --41.147.27.212 (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Would you mind specifying to which phrase in which article you object? This article is not about the OvaHerero. --Pgallert (talk) 08:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)