Talk:Red Table Talk

Episodes list

See here. I will delete the episodes list here, until someone shows what part of MOS:TV can be cited to establish that inline citations not required for episode tables. Or better: the person who thinks that an episodes list here is legit, can discuss it on WT:TV to get a confirmation for this. If so, we can reinstate the list at once. Best regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 12:27, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Lbtocth, Esuka, Alex 21, AngusWOOF: You all are frequent editors over at WP:TV, what say you regarding this? Feel free to invite others to join this discussion. – BoogerD (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Czar, Grayfell, feel free to join the discussion, both on the question on episodes lists, as on the merit of blank deletions on content that shouldn't be there anyway. Best regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 13:45, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Episodes can act as primary sources for the guest, but an additional citation can be included to support the titles and air date. Never delete, always tag. Blank deletions can and should be considered as disruptive. -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:29, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I assumed this WP:VERIFY in terms of primary source because you can see the episode titles and the release dates on Facebook Watch. — Lbtocth^talk 06:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

In terms of WP:V, I'm not sure what Lbtocth is saying above – Can that be converted to inline sourcing? And is it the kind of "source" that will be around 3–5 years from now? Or is it a "short-term" source only that will soon disappear?... On the more general question, I'm where I was in the previous discussion linked to above – it is very unusual to have an "episodes list" for a talk show, and I can't think of a good reason why this one should have one. Episode lists are primary used for TV series in which there are continuing story elements. In general, talk show and game show articles do not have them. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:03, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

List of Conan episodes, List of The Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien episodes, List of The Tonight Show with Jay Leno episodes, List of The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon episodes, List of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert episodes, List of The Daily Show episodes, List of The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson episodes, List of The Late Late Show with James Corden episodes, etc. – BoogerD (talk) 07:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I think all of those are crappy ideas. They approach WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:NOTTVGUIDE IMO – those kinds of lists (which are also poorly sourced, 'natch) are not the function of an encyclopedia, and should be housed elsewhere, not here. (YMMV...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall: I meant when you go to the official website (the official Red Table Talk page on Facebook) where you watch the episodes you can see the episode titles and the release dates on Facebook Watch. — Lbtocth^talk 07:15, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

If those can be converted to inline sources for titles and release dates, then it's not a problem. But, if they can't, then it's a problem, IMO. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

The episode title and the release date are shown on the sides of the default screen (not full screen) as you are watching the episode somewhat the YouTube format. — Lbtocth^talk 07:33, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

BoogerD, I had invited you here to join the discusion at the Teahouse concerning the episodes lists. You had not responded to the invitation, but the advice I was given was: Probably better to discuss that [at WT:TV], though safe to say that BoogerD needs to show what part of MOS:TV is being cited in that quoted edit summary. Anyway, just an appeal on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS will not work. However, if it turns out that an episodes-list on Facebook/Youtube will not violate WP:PRIMARY, then we can give this episodes-list a go (as well as the ones at The Jace Hall Show and the Rubin Report). Best regards, Jeff5102 (talk) 14:06, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Whatever outcome, removing an episodes table is such an extreme action and one that has all the hallmarks of a disruptive edit. You couldn't possibly think such an edit would stand right? If you're unhappy with the sourcing, add a column reference yourself for the title and airdate. When in doubt take to the talkpage or even ask over at the TV Project talkpage. I don't see what anyone could gain just wiping out an entire table without fixing what they perceive to be a problem. Esuka (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I disagree that removing the episodes table is "disruptive" if done just once without discussion – it's merely WP:BOLD. In fact, this one played out the right way – the table was removed, the removal was reverted, and then a discussion was started – that's exactly the way this kind of thing is supposed to go... (And, on my end, I still lean in the direction that removing the episodes table is the correct course of action – a summary of the guests on this show can be handled in prose format: an episodes table is really not needed for a "talk show"...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:20, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:BOLD "Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it". I don't see how wiping out an episodes table without fixing the issue solves anything, it certainly isn't "BOLD". In most instances you can find and source the episodes in minutes at most. The issue about this discussion was about sourcing right? I stand by my point. Esuka (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Esuka, as you can see in the discussion I linked to, the practice of deleting episodes lists was done elsewhere before, with appeals to WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. And after discussing the issue at the Teahouse, I followed the advice of CZAR and IJBall, and removed the list.

My experience is that a discussion on an article's talkpage seldom results in satisfactory results: or the discussion is ignored, or it becomes a bitter fight between fanboys and sworn enemies. Hence my choice to discuss it at the Teahouse while inviting the involved editors. If that is "extreme" and "disruptive", then Wikipedia really becomes too bureaucratic. Best regards, Jeff5102 (talk) 16:19, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

No worries, do keep in mind I was talking about removing an episodes table because of a lack of sourcing rather than sourcing the episodes yourself. I wasn't throwing accusations your way about being disruptive or anything, but if it seemed that way I do apologize. Esuka (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

All right. Then I hope this discussion soon will come to a conclusion that is acceptable for all parties. Or else, I hope someone will pick this up at WP:TV. Please inform me then when consensus is reached; as BoogerD rightfully pointed out, there are many more episodes-lists of talk-shows on Wikipedia which may be affected by the outcome of this discussion. Best regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 14:33, 6 January 2019 (UTC)