Talk:Refinery Row (Edmonton)

Merge discussion

• Merge. The purpose of the articles on Edmonton and Sherwood Park streets is to explain their purpose and what institutions make up the notable road. This explanation should be added to the Baseline Road article. 117Avenue (talk) 02:22, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Do all the refineries in question (and the other associated facilities) face or have access to Baseline Road? That's not how I remember it, but I could be wrong so please correct me if I am. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 05:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Although the refineries extend to the north and the south of Baseline Road (Strathcona Industrial District), when Refinery Row is referred to, the "row" is Baseline Road, because it is in the middle, and the faces of the facilities face the road. 117Avenue (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You said: "when Refinery Row is referred to, the "row" is Baseline Road". Is there a good source for saying so? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to make sure that we aren't infering things that aren't documented. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 03:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought that that name came from there actually being an actual row of something, where then did the name come from? Do you have a source that says it refers to the district as a whole, rather than there being a row? 117Avenue (talk) 06:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The term was not invented in Edmonton, but copied from the US. Therefore its possibly that it was adopted somewhat haphazardly, and doesn't actually refer to a row, as such. Aerial photos seem to show that there is as such of a north-south row along the Henday 216 as there is an east-west one along Baseline, and that's certainly the impression I get when I drive down there. In actuality, we may never be able to pin down an official row because this is a highly unofficial, colloquial term. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 03:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the industrial district is more like an area then a row. But it would still be nice to have a source explaining how it got its name. 117Avenue (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Request to revert page move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Refinery Row (Edmonton). 117Avenue (talk) 01:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

---

Edmonton Oil Refining Center → Refinery Row — The purpose of this article is to explain the area in west Strathcona County (commonly thought to be east Edmonton), known as Refinery Row by many in Alberta, and the local media. The only names I know it by is Refinery Row and Strathcona County Industrial District, changing it without notify any of the contributors was inconsiderate. I also believe the name to be a creation by the user Fredoues, as Refinery Row is in fact not in Edmonton limits, and the Canadian spelling is 'Centre'. 117Avenue (talk) 01:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• I'm against the name of Refinery Row because i think isn't good for the organization of all refining industry in Canada. The name of Edmonton Oil Refining Center have the same role than the Montreal Oil Refining Center and Edmonton have the same situation as Montreal, just look in Google Map satellite view and Wikipedia haven't a Refinery Row article for Montreal. (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support Although uncited, the WP:COMMONNAME certainly is Refinery Row. 117Avenue is certainly correct in noting that the current name does not use proper Canadian spelling.--Labattblueboy (talk) 09:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
• "Refinery Row" sounds an awful lot like a local or regional colloquialism. It may be a name which is popularized in the local media, but that doesn't really change the fact that it's still a colloquialism. According to [1] the article title should probably "Strathcona refinery". The largest current problem is definitely the "unsourced" part, however. If a source is found (a local newspaper story about the refinery would be great) then I could easily see something like "The Strathcona refinery, known locally as Refinery Row^Cite..." for the first sentence, with the article titled as either the current title or "Strathcona refinery". References definately come first though.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 16:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  I thought the same thing until I found the term produced notable hits of reliable sources on google books[2], google scholar[3] and a number of media[4][5][6][7]. I gather, from my reading, that the site is a concentration of oil refineries and related industrial facilities in Strathcona County, but not strictly the Strathcona refinery. Colloquial or not, it appears to be WP:COMMONNAME. --Labattblueboy (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  Sounds good. I'd point out though that the sources (at least one) needs to be added, and that the lead sentence should then be something like "Refinery Row, Officially named Strathcona refinery,..." or some such (depending on actual "official names" or whatever).
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 21:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Even on the Strathcona County website I can't find an official name. There is: Strathcona Industrial Area [8], Refinery Area [9], and Refinery Row [10]. I would also say Strathcona Refinery District, just not Edmonton Oil Refining Center because it doesn't have any sources, or Strathcona Refinery because that is the name of the Imperial Oil individual refinery. I still find the name Refinery Row the most favorable as it is the most common name as referenced by Labattblueboy, and the five references now on the article, there can be more if we keep looking. 117Avenue (talk) 03:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

A similar discussion is taking place at Talk:Montreal Oil Refining Center#Requested move. 117Avenue (talk) 00:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support move from Edmonton Oil Refining Center; even if "Refinery Row" or "Strathcona Refinery District" are colloquial names, "Edmonton Oil Refining Center" is not used at all. -M.Nelson (talk) 01:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  Moved to support "petrochemical cluster" as proposed by Franamax below. -M.Nelson (talk) 16:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  Also note that "Center" as currently used is not Canadian English; it should be "Centre". -M.Nelson (talk) 01:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

About the future of the title of the Edmonton Oil Refining Center, i suggest to move to Refinery Row for this article and to create the real Edmonton Oil Refining Centre with the Alberta's Industrial Heartland and Refinery Row together. A oil refining centre with 3 refineries (Scotford Refinery (Shell Canada), Edmonton Refinery (Suncor Energy) and Strathcona Refinery (Imperial Oil))--Fredoues (talk) 05:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Shell Scotford? That's way-y-y up the road isn't it? Just north of Fort Saskatchewan, past the Dow straddle plant and the rest of Chemical Row. Not part of the Edmonton cluster at all. However, Edmonton should include Canadian Celanese and AT Plastics (assuming they're still operating) since they draw feedstock from the refineries. Franamax (talk) 11:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support move away from "Edmonton Oil Refining Centre", but only Canadians would call two refineries a "row". Take a drive up road past the Houston Ship Channel, that's a row of refineries! Also, as I recall from my days in the business, Sarnia was "refinery row". [S'cona refinery district] would be OK, but for uniformity, how about [Edmonton petrochemical cluster], [Montreal petrochemical cluster], [Sarnia petrochemical cluster] and [Fort Saskatchewan petrochemical cluster]? That (plus Fort McMurray) covers 90% of Canada's bulk chemical industry. Franamax (talk) 11:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Edmonton petrochemical cluster or something of the sort. Though I'd be cool with any of the colloquial names per WP:COMMONNAME, having a standard name for Edmonton, Montreal, etc as you suggest would be the best option. Having "--- Oil Refining Centre" as the standard implies that it is an official name, whereas "petrochemical cluster" more accurately describes the group of facilities (in both the 'unofficial' grouping as well as its petrochemical nature). -M.Nelson (talk) 16:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
• I appose any attempt to apply our own name to it, that includes:"Edmonton Petrochemical Cluster" and "Edmonton Oil Refining Centre", "Refinery Row" is what everyone calls it, it is what this article should be titled. To Fredoues: why does there have to an Edmonton Oil Refining Centre article? This is all the information we currently have available, also Refinery Row and Alberta's Industrial Heartland (Scotford) are entirely different centres, as already explained in the article. Is the Scotford Refinery (Shell Canada) the same as the Scotford Upgrader? To Franamax: yes there are other businesses in this district, but this is just a stub, the creator, Kevlar67, hasn't chimed in yet; there may be longer refinery rows, but this is what everyone calls it. 117Avenue (talk) 03:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, the federal government seems OK with "petrochemical clusters" [11] so as a general term I think it's OK (or "integrated petrochemical complex" if you want). For the case of this specific article, the argument is severely weakened by the fact that the feds don't even talk about Edmonton/Sherwood Park itself as being an integrated cluster. Renaming this would be a convenience to bring all the articles (should they be written) under a common naming. I certainly recognize you might have an attachment to "Refinery Row" and I admire you guys for getting there first (it's actually a fairly common term). As long as it's linked and categorized, people can find it. It definitely shouldn't stay at a name that implies some official designation. Note that there are no extra capital letters in my proposed page name.

Yes, the Scotford upgrader is the same as the original refinery, that is the pipeline terminus. Judging by the blurring on G Earth, the upgrader was built on the other (east) side of the road. The reason I mention Celanese [12] and whatever AT Plastics is called now is not that they are other businesses in the area, it's that the only reason they are there is because of the refineries. That is where they get their feedstock. That's how industrial clusters form. Franamax (talk) 08:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comments:

1. The area has no official, unviversal name so I dislike any proposed article titles that are entirely invented and capitalized, as this implies a level of authority that simply does not exist. (see WP:CAPS)
2. While standardization with other similar articles would be nice, we cannot impose uniformity where there is none.
3. The overwhelming majority of Edmonton residents and media outlets refer to the area as "refinery row" (see WP:COMMONNAME)
4. Edmonton is not the only city with a "refinery row". Once those articles are created, we will need to disambiguate.

Therefore. The title of article should either be refinery row (Strathcona County, Alberta) or Edmonton refinery row. But since this is currently the only article of this type, refinery row would also be acceptable, for the time being. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 03:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Edmonton refinery row seems line a good choice, I'll support that. --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that both Refinery and Row can be capitalized. According to MOS:CAPS proper nouns are allowed to be capitalized, and I think all the sources use it as a proper noun. 117Avenue (talk) 00:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support move: it should not stay at its current name, or any other neologism. I support moving back to Refinery Row, or moving to Edmonton's refinery row or Refinery Row (Edmonton). Sources used to come up with these names include: [13] and [14]. A disambiguation page could/should be created [15], [16], Corpus Christi, TX Texas to Lousiana?. I oppose keeping it at its current name, per Kevlar67. DigitalC (talk) 17:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

If we do go the disambiguation route I suggest "Refinery Row (Edmonton)" or "Refinery Row, Edmonton". 117Avenue (talk) 21:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New oil refineries articles in Alberta

Hi 117Avenue, you live in Alberta and perhaps you live inside the Greater Edmonton Area. Is it possible for you to take a lot of pictures of the refineries of Edmonton Refinery (Suncor Energy) and Strathcona Refinery (Imperial Oil) for to begin those articles. I will to talk you about the future of the Edmonton Oil Refining Centre article. I will search a solution for to have the real Edmonton Oil Refining Centre article. --Fredoues (talk) 05:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes I do live in the Edmonton area, if you ever what to learn more about an editor on Wikipedia, feel free to visit their user page by clicking on their name, and reading the information that they have available. I have thought about ways of expanding this article since this discussion began, but just like everything else in the Edmonton area, the refineries are covered in snow, I think that a better representation of institutions is having their picture taken in summer (another thing that could have been found on my user page). Also, if you are thinking of creating the articles for these refineries, I would suggest Suncor Edmonton Refinery as the name for the Suncor institute, because it is the official name provided on their website. 117Avenue (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done117Avenue (talk) 07:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Suncor and Petro-Can refineries

Are one and the same? I thought they operated seperate refineries before the merger. The Petro-Canada plant is located at 401 Petroleum Way[17], [18], but I can't find an adress for the page that is listed on Suncor's page. In any event, in my search I also figure out what other businesses are in the "row", or at least on Petroleum Way. A Lafarge cement plant (#301), and a North Star truck year (#225), an Alcan aluminum works (#910), etc. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 04:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm really pretty sure it's the same thing. I know for sure there's a PetroCan refinery there, I know Suncor bought PetroCan, and I'm as close to positive as I can be that there was never an extra refinery lurking in the bushes when I was in that business. Franamax (talk) 06:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The source you originally provided for the Petro-Canada refinery was a news item from (5 days) before the merger, and it cited the same number of barrels per day as the Suncor refinery source. 117Avenue (talk) 00:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)