Talk:Reigate/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 11:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Starting first read-through (for typos, duplicate links etc at this stage). Second reading, scrutinising content, to follow. Tim riley talk 11:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Tim riley I look forward to working with you again! Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Spelling

• behavioral
• angeliva
• Paish

Duplicate links

There are two links to these articles, listed here in order of their second appearance:

• Domesday Book
• Dissolution of the monasteries
• Reigate (UK Parliament constituency)
• Kingston upon Thames
• Reigate and Banstead
• Reigate railway station
• Redhill railway station
• East Surrey Hospital
• Sidlow
• Reigate Stone
• Reigate Heath Windmill
• Margot Fonteyn
• British Army
• Wray Common Windmill

I'm moving on to a second reading – scrutiny of content. Comments to follow. Tim riley talk 12:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting these. I think I've corrected them all. Mertbiol (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Detailed comments

This is a thorough and very readable article, which I am much enjoying reviewing. I offer a few suggestions that I hope you will find useful, but I have found nothing that absolutely must be altered to meet GA standards: it's for you to decide which, if any, of the following you wish to act on:

• Lead

• "tile making took place" – the OED hyphenates "tile-making" (and there's another one in the History section)
• "the new town hall on Castlefield Road" – why the AmE "on So-and-So Road" rather than the traditional BrE "in So-and-So Road"? And unless I'm misreading the main text, the Town Hall opened in 1901, in which case "new" is not an adjective that comes immediately to mind in 2023. (If the adjective is part of a title, as in New College, Oxford, the title should be capitalised.)

I have made these changes. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Toponymy

• "The name is thought to derive from the Old English rǣge meaning "roe deer" and the Middle English gate, which might indicate an enclosure gate through which deer were hunted" – Ekwall (p. 384) says "Gate might well mean 'pass' in this case. but 'gate' is perhaps more likely". (Use this or not as you prefer: I merely mention it.)

I hadn't come across this interpretation/translation, but I have included it with the reference to Ekwall. Thank you for finding this and letting me know about it. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Geology

• "A number of quarries have operated" – "a number of" is a bit woolly. A handful? Lots? And if woolliness is unavoidable "some" is at least shorter.
• "Upper Greensand from Medieval times" – I don't think we usually capitalise "medieval".
• "There are the remains of a number of old chalk pits" – as above.

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Early history

• "Finds from the Bronze Age include a gold penannular ring, dated to c. 1150 – c. 750 BCE" – our article on Bronze Age Britain says that our Bronze Age ended c. 800 BC, but what's fifty years among archaeologists?

The c. 750 BCE is in the reference. I suppose it's possible that gold penannular rings fell out of fashion in the very late British Bronze Age? Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I stopped wearing penannular rings at about that date. Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• "A series of artefacts discovered to the south west of the town centre in 2011, suggest" – at the risk of seeming pedantic I'd say the singular noun "series" governs the verb, which should also be singular. On the other hand, if you think that would look odd I shall not press the point. What I will press is that the comma after 2011 oughtn't to be there.
• "throughout the duration of the occupation of Britain" – a bit belt and braces, perhaps? "throughout the occupation of Britain" would be clear enough, I think.

I have amended the text as appropriate. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Governance

• "Reigate Foreign" – wonderful! ("Here comes a stranger: 'eave 'alf a brick at 'im")

Very much an "us-and-them" mentality from the burgesses of the Borough of Reigate. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Reigate Priory

• "William de Warenne, the fifth Earl of Surrey, is thought to have founded the Augustinian priory at Reigate before his death in 1240" – well, he would hardly have founded it after his death.
• "William Howard, Baron of Effingham" – I don't think this is the correct way of titling him. He (like his more famous son, of Spanish Armada fame) is usually called Baron Howard of Effingham, not Baron of Effingham.

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Transport and communications

• "Two significant improvements to the road network" – this is Plain Words on the adjective: This is a good and useful word, but it has a special flavour of its own and it should not be thoughtlessly used as a mere variant of important, considerable, appreciable, or quite large ... it ought to be used only where there is a ready answer to the reader's unspoken question 'Significant, is it? And what does it signify?'

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Healthcare

• "the GP practice is on Yorke Road" – this would be Yorke Road, New Yorke, judging by the preposition? And more such Americanisms later that could with advantage be rooted out. Perhaps blue-link GP, do you think?

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Economy

• "Air Europe had its head office ... Canon UK had their headquarters" – a corporate entity can equally well take a singular or a plural verb and pronoun, but it might be a good thing to decide which you're using here and stick to it.
• "Further along London Road towards the town centre can be found the former European headquarters of Willis Towers Watson, prior to the merger with Willis where the global and British headquarters relocated to Lime Street in London[181] in front of which is a life-size bronze of Margot Fonteyn and a huge picturesque cedar tree." – this is confusing. The statue of Fonteyn is in Reigate, not the City of London, but that isn't what the sentence says. And who says the tree is picturesque, or indeed there at all? There is no source cited.

I have amended the text as requested. The Margot Fonteyn statue is mentioned the "Culture" section and I had forgotten to remove it from this section (now done). Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Transport

• "Reigate is linked by a number of bus routes" – how many? That information is surely available.

Unfortunately bus routes are in state of flux post-Covid. A detail such a such as the number of bus routes/operators is likely to go out of date quickly, so I would prefer not to put a specific figure here. I have rephrased to get rid of "a number of". Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Other schools

• "Reigate Valley College ...educates pupils that have had behavioural issues" – not keen on "that". True, it is used thus by Chaucer and in the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer, but in modern usage the usual relative pronoun for people, rather than things, is "who" (though I admit that every one of the four editions of Fowler from 1926 to 2015 states that it isn't a firm rule).

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Church of St Mary Magdalene

• "Two phases of significant reconstruction" – "significant": as above.
• "the largest of which a memorial to Richard Labroke" – missing an "is?

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Parks and open spaces

• "an area of about 5 acres (2.0 ha) ... part of the North Downs escarpment. 1.0 ha (2.5 acres)" and so on: probably better to standardise throughout on imperial with metric in brackets or vice versa. And now I look again, the same applies to miles and kilometres: e.g. "19 mi (31 km)" but "3.7 km (2.3 mi)".

I have amended the text as requested. Miles are now always before km, but for any other units, metric is always before imperial per MOS:UNITS. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Notes

• "the Great Plague of 1665-66" – en-dash, please, rather than hyphen, for date ranges.

I have amended the text as requested. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Bibliography

The bibliographical details are OK for GAN, I think, but would not survive an FAC source review. In particular:

• Books without an ISBN will usually have an OCLC number (WorldCat will provide) which should be given if available.
• Some of the capitalisation looks improbable to me: for instance Google Books shows that The Geology of the Country around Reigate and Dorking is in the customary title case.
• Dines, HG; Edmunds, FH; Chatwin, CP; Stubblefield, CJ: the Manual of Style prescribed spaced initials with full stops: "Dines, H. G." etc. Likewise for Gover, J.E.B; Mawer, A.; Stenton, F.M and Gallois, RW; Edmunds, MA.

I have amended the text as requested. I was able to find two more ISBNs and have added all of the OCLC numbers that I could find. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• And an FA source reviewer would certainly have concerns about WP:V or WP:RS about the Prospectus for Reigate Sixth Form College and several of the publications by local historians and historical societies. As I remarked at the GAN of Ashtead, I think they'll do at GA level, but be aware if you go on to FAC, which I think you should.

I think it would be fair to say that of all the articles I've brought to GAN, Reigate has been the hardest to find decent secondary sources for. The town history (Hooper 1945, reprinted 1979) is well out of date and the local newspaper archive is not complete as we would like. I will continue to search for reliable sources and will add them as and when I find them. Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Nothing in that list to cause alarm and despondency, I think. Over to you. – Tim riley talk 14:47, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much for these comments and apologies for not addressing them more promptly. I think I have made all the edits requested. Please let me know if you have any further concerns. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

This is a top-notch article, and I don't see why it shouldn't be put up for FAC, with a little tightening of the referencing. I am still chuckling at "Reigate Foreign" and I look forward to further GANs from Mertbiol. I am twitted by those who know me for my reluctance to stray much outside the Circle Line, but Mertbiol's Surrey articles tempt me to do so. More, please! – Tim riley talk 16:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much @Tim riley: for another diligent and thorough review. It’s been a pleasure working with you again!

One further favour, if I may — I reviewed the Dolwyddelan Castle article at GAN a week or so ago and thought very highly of it. At my recommendation, the nominator has put it up for an A class review at WP:MilHist. I wondered if you had time to perhaps cast your eye over the article and leave a comment or two? (I'm not sure whether your interests and expertise stretch to 13th-century Welsh castles, but if they do, I'm sure A.D.Hope would welcome your input!) Thanks and best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

MilHist? Good Lord! As a proud holder of the Queen's Award for Cowardice I have never been seen there, but I'll look in after dark if there's no-one else around. As it's an ancient Welsh castle you might also give KJP1 a prod, as he knows a thing or two about such matters. Tim riley talk 16:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)