Talk:Reinhard Heydrich/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 17:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• I'll start the review of this article shortly. MathewTownsend (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Initial comments

Lede

• in the lede "At least 1,300 people were murdered in the wake of Heydrich's death. - this seems out of place, - he was dead so why is this a major fact about his life? (and it seems like a small number compared to the vast numbers killed.)

This was the "best estimate" number of people from Lidice and Ležáky murdered in retaliation for Heydrich's death. It was probably even more. Kierzek (talk)

• This is actually what Heydrich is most remembered for: the revenge slaughter and total destruction of the town of Lidice in the days after his death. No one there had any involvement in his death whatsoever. --Dianna (talk)

• Reply So all the rest of the stuff that comprises most of the article isn't that important? MathewTownsend (talk) 21:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

With due respect to Diannaa, that is not what he is best remembered for but part of his legency. He is remembered as the one who pushed Himmler up the ladder; started the SD; oversaw the SiPo, chief of the RSHA, and best known as one of the main architects of the Holocaust (chaired the Wannsee Conference) and as Acting Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia who was the top Nazi assassinated during the war. Kierzek (talk)

• Kierzek correctly points out that this is only one aspect of what he is remembered for; I am gonna take a stab at re-writing the lead to include more of these other things. --Dianna (talk)

• vague about his acts that earned him enmity in his life.

• The lead has now been beefed up to include more of this material. Please confirm whether or not anything is still inadequate about the lead. Thanks. --Dianna (talk)

• "Historians regard him as the darkest figure within the Nazi elite" - is this cited somewhere?

• We have three such cites, located at the top of the "role in the Holocaust" section. The cited historians are Sereny, Evans, and Gerwarth. -- Dianna (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Reply I read the citations given after that remark in the article and didn't see those words. Besides, it doesn't make sense if what he was remembered for most (see above in lede) happened after his death. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Sereny says: "arguably the darkest personality on the Nazi firmament"; Evans says he was widely feared; I think Kierek has the Gerwarth book and can look up the information. --Dianna (talk)

Gerwarth states, "...is widely recognized as one of the great iconic villians of the twentieth century, an appalling figure even within the context of the Nazi elite." Kierzek (talk)

• "Hitler christened him "the man with the iron heart" - altho source is given, I can't find the quote.

• Here is a Google link Since this is a direct quote, the source should be stated in the lead, per WP:CITELEAD, so I have added the cite there. -- Dianna (talk)

• he wasn't still part of the Nazi Party in "Acting Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia"? I'm confused. Why is this under a separate section?Y fixed -- Dianna (talk)

Yes, Heydrich was still in the NSDAP, the SS and head of the RSHA; he wore many hats. He was the "acting" Protector as officially Konstantin von Neurath remained titular Protector; having been removed and sent on leave. This position was the first official state run by an SS officer and gave him direct access to Hitler. Kierzek (talk)

other sections

• relationship with wife, children? - did he have any and if so what was their fate?

• I started on this and will finish this and the remaining work later. -- Dianna (talk) Y I have added additional material; it appears at the bottom of "Death in Prague". I think this is the last of the items you have mentioned so far. Thanks. --Dianna (talk) 05:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Organization

• Why is "Role in the Holocaust" under "Aftermath" and after "Death in Prague"?

Good point, I would suggest it be moved up and placed after: "Night and Fog Decree". Diannaa, what do you think? Kierzek (talk)

• "Summary of career" seems anticlimactic ending. Should it include the major acts in his life e.g. Gestapo, role in The Holocaust, Kristallnacht etc.?

There is a separate article on his "career". Kierzek (talk)

• shouldn't "Aftermath" be last, or perhaps a "Legacy" section?

MathewTownsend (talk) 18:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• I have re-ordered the content. "Summary of career" is now at the bottom of the career section. "Role in the Holocaust" is next. Wraps up with "death" and "aftermath". "Nazi Party and the SS" has been re-named "Career in the military and SS", and "Acting Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia" is now a subsection of that. Please let us know whether this is adequate. --Dianna (talk)

more

• In addition, owing to his facial geometry and body shape, he may have had "Marfan Syndrome".[14][15] - doesn't seem to be supported by the sources.

• This has been removed. --Dianna (talk)

GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose: clear and concise, correct spelling and grammar:

   • He was the founding head of the SD, an intelligence organisation tasked with seeking out and neutralising opponents of the Nazi Party through the arrest, deportation, and murder. He was one of the organisers of Kristallnacht, one of the one of the beginning events of the Holocaust. Upon his arrival in Prague, Heydrich sought to neutralise resistance to the Nazi regime through the suppression of the Czech culture and the deportation and execution of members of the Czech resistance.

   • Repetiton in the paragraph. I tried to remove some of it - but couldn't fix all

   • I have re-worded; please check and see if it is now acceptable. --Dianna (talk)

1. B. Complies with MoS for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   • Fails to follow lead.
   • Lede should summarize the article. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.

   • Can you please be more specific as to what you think is still missing from the lede? Thanks. --Dianna (talk)

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Provides references to all sources:

   AGF sources not accessible

   B. Provides in-line citations from reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Main aspects are addressed:

   After marriage, no mention of wife (did she survive him, etc.,) children?

   A paragraph was added to the bottom of "Death in Prague" --Dianna (talk)

   B. Remains focused:

   Goes into detail about his womanising before marriage, but nothing about his wife, marraige, children etc.

   I have reduced the material on the breach of promise incident, and added material on the family. --Dianna (talk)

4. Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

MathewTownsend (talk) 22:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment and queary

• Overall, very very good! My concerns about the lede and organization are rectified.
• Since this is a biography, I think the issue of wife and children needs to be wrapped up. Did he have children? What happened to his wife? She as in the city when he was killed, according to the photograph.

MathewTownsend (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• There is a paragraph at the bottom of the "Death in Prague" section which contains all the prperly sourced information I was able to obtain. "After the war the judicial system of West Germany awarded Heydrich's widow a federal pension.[105] The couple had four children: Klaus, born in 1933; Heider, born in 1934; Silke, born in 1939; and Marte, born shortly after her father's death in 1942.[106] Klaus was killed in a traffic accident in 1943. Lina wrote a memoir, Leben mit einem Kriegsverbrecher (Living With a War Criminal), which was published in 1976.[107] She remarried once and died in 1985.[108]" I hope this is adequate? Thank you so much for your helpful review, especially your comments on the overall organisation of the page. --Dianna (talk) 19:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Reply

Sorry! I missed that. All concerns listed above have been rectified!

Reevaluation after fixes

1. Well written?: Pass

2. Factually accurate?: Pass

3. Broad in coverage?: Pass

4. Neutral point of view?: Pass

5. Article stability?: Pass

6. Images?: Pass

• Congratulations! MathewTownsend (talk) 19:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you so much for taking the time to review this important article. -- Dianna (talk) 20:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)