Talk:Religious Zionist Party

Composition bar?

Shouldn't this article has a composition bar since they currently are an existing party, and have seats in the government? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShimonChai (talk • contribs) 18:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 August 2019

National Union–Tkuma → Tkuma (political party) – The page was moved without any discussion before the move. I request it will be revert back until a discussion will be held. Sokuya (talk) 04:22, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sokuya: If it has been moved and the target has not been edited since, you should be able to move it back using the 'move' tab at the top of the article. Number 57 09:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I revert it back. Sokuya (talk) 09:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, I have removed the RM template. Number 57 10:11, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Well to start the discussion, the party is commonly known as "National Union", their website refers to themselves as "National Union" and so does the logo of their party. The name "Tkuma" seems to have fallen out of use, which is why I propose to change the name of the page either to National Union–Tkuma (or National Union–Resurrection, because the other name has Hebrew/English mixed together) Gibzit (talk) 10:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I would support this, most media outlets refer to it as the National Union, which may lead to confusion on Wikipedia if it is not in the title.--Jay942942 (talk) 22:44, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

If Tkuma succeeded National Union so we should use the National Union article and expand it, and this will stay just Tkuma. It too confusing to have 2 article with the same name on the same party. If National Union was a political alliance of number of parties and everyone left but Tkuma, so Tkuma take National Union name, we should end Tkuma article with National Union split in 2013 and expand the National Union article. Or we should change National Union (Israel) into National Union (political alliance) and then change Tkuma into National Union (Israel), it's just all too confusing. I don't see the party using Tkuma, they just using National Union, so why called it National Union–Tkuma? Sokuya (talk) 12:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

While the party doesn't use Tkuma, it's official name is National Union-Tkuma (see here) Gibzit (talk) 16:30, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

It's still too confusing. Until 2013 it was just Tkuma, and the party was part of a political alliance name National Union. In 2013 the alliance dissolved and Tkuma succeed it with name logo and everything (They not using Tkuma as their name anymore). We can't have 2 articles on the same party. We should leave this article Tkuma and data up to 2013, and expand National Union with current data. If we name both of the National Union it would be confusing. Or we can leave it as is now. Sokuya (talk) 06:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we should just leave it as is. It would be easier to manage since there wouldn't be any page moves. David O. Johnson (talk) 06:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 29 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 20:04, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

---

Religious Zionist Party → National Union–Tkuma – The page was recently moved by David O. Johnson to the current title. I believe there is confusion between a political party and an electoral list. The article is about the party established in 1998, first known as "Tkuma", and now renamed to "National Union". But "The Religious Zionism" is the name of electoral list established in 2021, which include three parties: National Union, Otzma Yehudit, and Noam. The Central Elections Committee website shows that "The Religious Zionism" list consists of several parties including "National Union–Tkuma". It's explained in Hebrew articles here and here. It's the same situation as with New Right and Yamina: one is part of the other, but they are not the same thing. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Elli (talk | contribs) 12:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose According to the Jerusalem Post, this was an actual rename: "Smotrich changed the name of his National Union on Wednesday to the Religious Zionist Party." The name change may not have been done to the legal entity of the party, hence why the original name is used in CEC registration, similar to New Right which is still legally called Tzalash and is listed by the CEC as such. Number 57 14:18, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose it is called Religious Zionist Party by The Times of Israel.Shadow4dark (talk) 01:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Number57's comment. --Vacant0 (talk) 10:15, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split request 22 April 2022

Religious Zionist Party → Religious Zionist (political alliance) – There is a bit confusion with this article and there is a need to make some order. Religious Zionist Party has serval meanings:

1. Political alliance of multiple different parties that ran together as one canidates list in Knneset elections
2. A new name for a political party that was first known as Tkuma (and later as National Union–Tkuma)

Tkuma never ran in election as stand alone party list, see Religious_Zionist_Party#Election_results. They had always ran with other parties and formed political alliances that ran in the election as one unified list. Here's a quick recape:

At first they were a part of National Union alliance but when the alliance dissolved in 2013 they kept the brand name and were known to the public as National Union–Tkuma. They were still a separte party named Tkuma regarding legal terms. Later during 2013-2015 Tkuma joined to The Jewish Home party and both ran as a joint list known simply as Jewish Home. In the April 2019 election, after Bennet and Shaked left the Jewish Home to form a new party (New Right), the alliance used the name of Union of Right-Wing Parties as the name of the joint list. Later in 2019 September election all three of them formed a new joint list known as Yamina and later left it in 2020 leaving only the New Right party in the list and since then New Right known as Yamina. At this point Tkuma or National Union–Tkuma decide to rebrand itself as the Religious Zionist Party. Other smaller parties joined them to form a joint list under the name The Religious Zionist. Similar to 2013 when Tkuma joined Jewish Home but the name of their joint list was just Jewish Home.

So now we have two meanings to Religious Zionist Party, the separted party (with all the history of Tkuma party) and a new joint list of sevral diffrent parties that using the name Religious Zionist for the joint list as a unified political alliance.

This is not a unique situation in Israeli politics. Blue and White is a political alliance that was formed by serval diffrent parties, by now all other parties left and left only Resilience party to use it as their brand. Yamina is the name of political alliance that also had only one party today - New Right.

Wikipedia holds separate articles for the parties and separate articles for the political alliances. I believe that we should keep this order and split this article into two, one for the detailed history of Tkuma now known as Religious Zionist Party, and one for the political alliance that has composition of four diffrent parties with Otzma Yehudit and Noam, each party with unique history of itself.

It's not right to list all of Tkuma history of past alliances and leaders as the history of this political alliance, becuse Otzma Yehudit and Noam has nothing to do with it or its past leaders. And also Jewish Home and Yamina has nothing to do with this new political alliance either.

There should be separated articles:

1. Religious Zionist Party (with Tkuma (political party) and National Union–Tkuma redirecting to it) with all the past history of the party before 2021
2. Religious Zionist (political alliance) with only information of the 2021 elections and beyond on the alliance of Religious Zionist Party, Otzma Yehudit and Noam

~ Sokuya (talk) 16:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

• I am not sure there is an alliance that is separate to the party. I think it is actually the case that Otzma Yehudit and Noam ran as part of the Religious Zionist Party's list (similar how Atid Ehad ran in the last elections as part of the Likud list). If you look on the "Religious Zionism" website) (which has the logo and name the list ran on in the last election), it only lists the Religious Zionist Party MKs and not the others that were elected on the wider list. As a result, at the moment I think I oppose this request. Number 57 22:41, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

  This is exactly why there should be two separated articles! You checked the party website and was surprised there were no Otzma or Noam MKs? Otzma and Noam have separated websites because they separated parties, they all came together and formed a unified list as one political alliance. The current article lists information on Otzma and Noam (like the composition section) and it's wrong. There should be one article for the alliance and another for the party itself. and this is why we need to split it into two Sokuya (talk) 23:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  Atid Ehad is a shelf party so its basically arrangement for one MK. This is not a good example. This situation is similar to how Tkuma ran together with Jewish Home, both had separated primaries and parties bodies but ran under one list that was branded as The Jewish Home list. Otzma and Noam are departed indicated bodies that raising donation separately alone and etc. The Hebrew Wikipedia has two separated articles as well Sokuya (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  There shouldn't be two articles because there are not two entities. There is one Religious Zionist Party, which included some members of other parties on its list at the last election. This is a quite common phenomena in party list elections. Number 57 00:24, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

  No. its not right. there are 3 different unique parties on that list, each one with its own party platform and party institutions. Its wrong to make this article of only one of them as the article of all three. there should be separate article on the joint list. This article should focus only on the "Tkuma" history. That means there should not be a composition section (it belongs to articles of joint lists of serval parties) and the section of Election results should mention that the last election results was with Otzma and Noam and not as a stand alone party. Because Smotrich's party didn't run alone in the elections, and right now it gives wrong impression. Sokuya (talk) 11:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

  There is no need for an article on the shared list. It just needs to be made clear what happened in the article. Number 57 12:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't have strong feelings either way on splitting the article, but if it is split, I think the title of the political alliance should be Religious Zionism (political alliance), as opposed to "Religious Zionist". First of all, this is how it is translated in RS. Also, ציונות is a noun meaning "Zionism," not an adjective meaning "Zionist". Jacoby531 (talk) 14:21, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

  I have no problem with giving a new title for the splitted article, I just think there should be two sperated articles. Sokuya (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose like to Likud list who is also composed of non Likud members. Panam2014 (talk) 00:45, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

    What are you talking about, the article about the Likud party is solely on the Likud party. Sokuya (talk) 22:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Yamina (when they were still an alliance), National Union and Union of Right-Wing Parties have articles too and this situation is quite similar Braganza (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
  • It's not similar though. It wasn't an alliance, it was a case of other parties running on the RZP list, just like other parties have run on the Likud list in the past. Number 57 19:21, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

    what about We Continue the Change and We Continue the Change (political party) Braganza (talk) 19:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

    • They are actually separate organisations; this is not the case here. Number 57 20:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

      actually they arent, PP is a party which didnt had time to register and only used Volt & SEK as "mandate carrier" (you could compare it to New Right-Tzalash or Noam-Lazuz). Volt & SEK have basically no voters and the support mostly comes from PP and their leaders. Braganza (talk) 12:54, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

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Clarification on the party's ideology.

Apologies if I make a mistake here, I don't have a lot of experience with editing articles. In the section labeled "Ideology", it is stated that the party advocates for increased funding for Torah study and religious education. The source leads to the party's website in English, but the actual text only says that the party seeks to promote Torah study and religious education. That does not have the same connotation or meaning as advocating for increased funding. Is there another source that more clearly supports the statement in that section? If not, would it make sense to change the text to more closely match the website of the party? 2A06:C701:4943:4E00:61F9:406:EE49:1D6 (talk) 21:09, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Ideologies section in infobox

This edit war is ridiculous. @Trilletrollet @KakashiHatake, can we discuss it on the talk page instead of just reverting? David O. Johnson (talk) 18:13, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @KakashiHatake: —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 18:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Sure, the article that is being used as a citation for the party being Jewish supremacist is an opinion article by some random person. It's not real evidence. @Trilletrollet is just having fun changing, referring to the idea of Zionism as "laughable" and is openly a supporter of a one state solution and is bringing their politics into this. If you think that the Religious Zionist Party is Jewish supremacist then provide evidence. c1 (talk) 17:57, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@KakashiHatake: It's kinda interesting that you're trying to whitewash such a bigoted extremist group, but once someone reverts your edit, you immediately accuse him of antisemitism with no evidence whatsoever. This sort of hypocrisy suggests that you're not acting in very good faith imo. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 19:59, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Not acting in very good faith? You openly support a one state solution ("from the river to sea") and then call others bigoted and extremist? I don't care about your feelings and I get you just like trolling anything related to Jewish people.

I think the Religious Zionist Party deserves criticism since it's a far-right group that is allied with Otzma Yehudit which has ties to Kach. But I think facts are more effective than random people's opinions. Instead of citing some random person as fact, let's replace it with actual information. c1 (talk) 15:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

how is the one-state solution bigoted or extremist? not wanting Palestine to be divided on ethnic or sectarian lines is hardly an extreme opinion —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 17:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

There are currently plenty of cited ideological attributes - which are disputed? Iskandar323 (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The ones that use an opinion article from some random person instead of using actual facts or quotes from the party. Maybe look at my edits? c1 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

So Jewish supremacism/Anti-Arabism/Kahanism need better sourcing? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The AP Kahanism ref is just fine. [1] David O. Johnson (talk) 00:09, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Anti-Arabism is now supported with scholarly literature. I think Jewish supremacy could be removed from the infobox, because it remains largely accusational and linked to Smotrich. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

A one state solution to erase Israel is extremist. A one state solution to erase Palestinians is extremist. Both groups should have the right to govern themselves. The idea that you can just group them all together would lead to certain groups not having a say. c1 (talk) 18:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Splitting proposal into pages titled National Union–Tkuma and Mafdal–Religious Zionism

Currently this article is a mixture of a party called Tkuma, which merged with the coalition National Union, then formed a list called Religious Zionism and merged with The Jewish Home. Recently the party merged with The Jewish Home to form Mafdal–Religious Zionism (which already has an article in hebrew Wikipedia he:מפד"ל – הציונות הדתית). Given that Tkuma/RZP has now virtually dissappeared I think that the best option is to rename this article to National Union–Tkuma, they used this name for 23 years, and leave this as an article of a defunct party. In this article we could also mention the short-lived rename and formation of the Religious Zionism list. In the new article Mafdal–Religious Zionism or National Religious Party–Religious Zionism we would explain all the events since August 2023 and give a background of Tkuma and The Jewish Home. I'd welcome any other suggestions for the titles or the content each should have. Basque mapping (talk) 10:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I support it, i would also propose Religious Zionism (The coalition out of Tkuma, Noam & Otzma) but last time it was attempted Number 57 opposed it Braganza (talk) 14:33, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed rename and split.

On a related note, what does the Knesset website say that Religious Zionism calls themselves? That's usually a pretty good indicator.

I've tried accessing the Knesset site, but I get a "403 Forbidden error." David O. Johnson (talk) 06:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

What should the "new" party be called?

The Times of Israel [2] lists it as "The National Religious Party — Religious Zionism." The Jerusalem Post [3] also uses that same phrasing.

On the other hand, The Jewish Press [4] calls it "The National Religious – Religious Zionism Party", as does Israel National News [5].

It'd be best to first decide on the name before we start creating new articles, IMO.

Links to National Religious Party – Religious Zionism already exist at this article and at The Jewish Home article.

David O. Johnson (talk) 07:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

David O. Johnson Looking at the sources I think the best option is National Religious Party–Religious Zionism, Mafdal acronym meant that so it would be the most correct name. In what comes to the abbreviation, I propose either NRP–RZ or Mafdal–RZ. Anyway, it seems someone has already created the article, so we should start editing it. Basque mapping (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• I don't understand why this is being proposed as a split. There obviously needs to be a separate article on the new party (National Religious Party – Religious Zionism) formed by a merger of Religious Zionist Party and the Jewish Home. However, this article does not cover the new party at all, so there doesn't appear to be any information to split. Someone just needs to create an article on the new party. Number 57 09:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Number 57 Because we are also discussing about which is the best way to organize this article's information now that the party is dissolved. For instance, I have proposed to change its name to National Union–Tkuma and Braganza is in favour of creating another article for the Riologious Zionism coalition. The best is to have the point of view of many users to improve the articles. :D Basque mapping (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  yeah even if we decide not to create a RZP article it should be named Tkuma/National Union–Tkuma since RZP was only the name in the last years with rapid changes within the religious zionist sphere (starting with Union of Right-Wing Parties in 2019) and wouldn't be really representative for the whole timespan the article represents. Braganza (talk) 17:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  It really depends what standard practice is for naming parties that had more than one name and ceased to exist. I know for football clubs, standard practice is to keep the article at the last name the club had before being dissolved. Anyway, now the split has happened (someone started the new article), I guess the split tag can be removed (as previously discussed, there was no separate coalition. It was simply other parties running on the RZP list, just like some minor parties have run within the Likud list over the years). Cheers, Number 57 21:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Since the National Religious Party – Religious Zionism article is already created, I have gone ahead and removed the split template from this article. David O. Johnson (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 15 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not consensus to move. Arguments in support of moving centered around the length of time for which the part used the name "National Union–Tkuma" being much larger than that of the "Religious Zionist Party" moniker. Opposition was based on both the name "Religious Zionist Party" being used as the group's final name, being used as the name when the group was most prominent, and being the current name used by reliable sources to describe the party. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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Religious Zionist Party → National Union–Tkuma – Like I said in the discussion above the name change happened only in the last three years of their time span, so don't think the name is actually representative for the whole party. During this time there were many splits and mergers starting with New Right and URWP and ending with the newly formed Mafdal–RZP. In fact "National Union–Tkuma" remained their legal name until the end. Braganza (talk) 05:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 10:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support We should also create a disambiguation page for Religious Zionist Party if the move takes place. Basque mapping (talk) 11:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The Jerusalem Post [6] and Arutz Sheva [7] both give the name of the party as "Religious Zionist Party", while The Times of Israel and Arutz Sheva gives it as "Religious Zionism Party" [8]. David O. Johnson (talk) 05:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

  I don't deny that but i mean that imo it's more accurate to use Tkuma for the whole time span of RZP/Tkuma than the name of the last three years Braganza (talk) 07:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Having taken some time to consider this issue, I think I have settled on the view that (as with football clubs) it makes more sense for articles on defunct political parties to be at the last name the party had before its dissolution. This is particularly the case here, where the party was arguably at its most prominent under its final name, having won far more seats than ever before. Number 57 11:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose This is particularly the case here, where the party was arguably at its most prominent under its final name, having won far more seats than ever before.--Panam2014 (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.