Talk:Religious affiliations of chancellors of Germany

?

the beginning of the article says: "Every German Chancellor was a follower of a Christian church"

yet Hermann Müller is listed as irreligious 14:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)14:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.97.90 (talk)

so i changed it to "Almost every German Chancellor was a follower of a Christian church" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.97.90 (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Friedrich Ebert

Friedrich Ebert's case is a bit puzzling in terms of sources. There are several sources saying that he officially left the Roman Catholic Church ("Kirchenaustritt"); the one I gave is the minutes of a meeting of the national government of the day concerning his death and funeral, ministers were informed that he had previously been Roman Catholic but had left the Church and that the "family" (not said who exactly) were Protestant. Further sources say that his wife had initially been Protestant but had also left. There is also a story about a Protestant minister speaking at his funeral and later being disciplined for that. So, it is certain that Ebert died "irreligious", but it is frustrating that there seems to be no source for the date of the official disaffiliation. I listed him as "irreligious", because it is very implausible that he would have made such a step while already being in office (be it as head of government or later President (as which he died) - it would have been a political minefield), and it is on the other hand very plausible that those two religious sceptics would have sorted these things out by the time of their marriage (1894), because mixed-denomination marriages were a problematic issue at the time in Germany. As I think that we need to refer to the affiliation at the time of being in office, "irreligious" therefore seems the correct label, but if anyone could find a source that really confirms the date of disaffiliation, that would be better. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 22:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I've been able to narrow it down to before 1912, because the semi-official parliamentary handbook ("Reichstags-Handbuch") issued in 1912 already lists Ebert as "Dissident" which then meant "not member of a recognised denomination". I guess that's good enough. The handbook can be downloaded for non-commercial use here; click on the bullet next to "Ja" (thereby you affirm that you accept the terms and conditions and that it's for non-commercial use); in the field below that you need to enter the number you see next to "Schlüssel" in the gray field below that; finally, you click on "WEITER" below "Bereitstellung sofort". Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 19:58, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Original research and verification tags

True, the article lacks citations. I've recently put all the necessary sources in the German article. If anyone wants to put them here, great. Personally, I've had enough work on the German article, so I think I've done my part, sorry. By the way, I doubt someone can find conclusive evidence for "Lutheran" for all chancellors concerned. Those who come from Protestant churches that were merged by Prussia are generally just listed as Protestant ("evangelisch"), because while these churches allow members to be Lutheran or Reformed on an individual level and congregations to choose a liturgy that can be identified as Lutheran or Reformed, they avoid to make any of this too official a status. That's why I finally changed to simply "evangelisch" in the German article. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 21:33, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Hitler and Goebbels

If they were initially catholic, does this makes them Lapsed Catholics? We ought to link to the article if it applies. Sophie means wisdom (talk) 09:56, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I think that "Lapsed Catholic" only would add to the confusion. Wasn't Ebert a "Lapsed Catholic" then as well? In the German article, Hitler and Goebbels are simply listed as Roman Catholic. Initially, I had put a caveat on the Nazis, but others judged that it wasn't necessary. The text now simply says that the list refers to official affiliation (for all the chancellors), not necessarily actual belief. This is particularly adequate for a German reader who is used to affirmations like "Nine percent of German Roman Catholics are atheists". To a German, this makes perfect sense, because "Roman Catholic" is someone baptized in that Church who has never officially left in the legally prescribed way (basically a declaration to either the local court office or the register office, depending on where you live). And according to that definition, Hitler and Goebbels always stayed Roman Catholics, there is no doubt whatsoever about that. I tend to think that this definition is the only one practically usable here because otherwise, there may be many chancellors we could have doubts about. Helmut Schmidt is on record for not having believed in the afterlife and apparently no-one remembers ever having seen him in church during all the time he was a public figure. He was at best a "cultural Christian". The only reason to list him as Lutheran is the definition I just gave. Under that one, he was a crystal-clear Lutheran for sure. So, maybe we should rethink the mention of "initial" in the first place and just make the definition clearer in the introduction. On the other hand, this might be counter-intuitive for an English-speaking reader; I don't know that. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 19:46, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

3Kindoms, I’m going to revert your edits. Both Hitler and Goebbels never officially disaffiliated from the Roman Catholic church. Goebbels would have liked to, but Hitler had forbidden it for strategic reasons (see here in his diary: “Noch lange Debatten über Vatikan und Christentum. Der Führer ist schärfster Gegner des ganzen Zaubers, aber er verbietet mir doch, aus der Kirche auszutreten. Aus taktischen Gründen. Und für so einen Quatsch bezahle ich nun schon seit über einem Jahrzehnt meine Kirchensteuern.”). As I’ve explained above, you could imagine a different criterion, but then you would need to review all the other chancellors based on their actual beliefs, and I doubt that we would find reliable sources for all of them. “Gottgläubig” was a code word for those who had officially disaffiliated but didn’t want to look like atheists (for whom they wrote “glaubenslos”). So, that doesn’t fit either, because you needed to be officially disaffiliated first. You might want to expand a bit more on the issue in the introduction, but you can’t just change an entry in the legal affiliation column against all historical evidence without having first defined a new criterion which you would then apply to all the chancellors.Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 10:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello Sigur on the page regarding Hitler's religious views its says with sources. "In a speech in the early years of his rule, Hitler declared himself "Not a Catholic, but a German Christian"." I personally disagree with the focus on if they officially disaffiliated, which seems to more of a German thing as opposed to the Anglo world. For Hitler I just say link to the page on his religious beliefs. Regardless of if they left or not it is more inaccurate to leave them labeled as Roman Catholic given their views and writings on the Church. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:04, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep, it’s a “German thing”, as you say, but for the time being it’s the only thing for which we have reliable objective data. I’m not against a different approach, but it needs to be consistent. You can’t do the “Anglo thing” for the Nazis and then the “German thing” for all the others. And especially if you start counting, you need reliable categories. If you count Hitler as non-Catholic, you need to count Schmidt as non-Protestant as well. Where do we go with that? But a good idea might be to start a “notes” column like it’s done in Religious affiliations of presidents of the United States, where we could say more about actual beliefs where we know something about that. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 19:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I only changed Hitler and Goebbels because of my readings on Nazi Germany. I do not know much about Chancellor Schmidt, so I did not feel confrontable making a change. I have no issue changing Schmit to not affiliated based on the information you posted earlier. Based on that, I agree with the label of Schmidt being a "cultural Christian" only. In comparison neither Hitler or Goebbels could even be considered "cultural Christians" or "culutral Catholics" so I really cannot see keeping that label for them. On a side note, I personally am inclined to do away with the label of Protestant and instead give the exact denomination such as the Prussian Union of Churches, for Chancellors who were Protestant. Hope that clears things up. 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

My point is: Once you start you have to do it for all of them (Schmidt is just an example), and I don’t have the necessary information for that. Same for the exact denomination; I haven’t been able to find the exact denomination for all the Protestants. If you can, of course, that would be better. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 14:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I do not oppose doing it for all. I do not see an issue with starting with Hitler and Goebbels since they are the two most obvious. From there others and I can add to others over time. 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:22, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, I see an issue: I’m the one who looked up most of the sources indicated, and I can tell you that I already had a hard time finding the official affiliations of all of them. I don’t think I could find the actual beliefs of all of these people. If you can, again, I’ll be the last one to object. That’s obviously the more interesting information. But “starting with Hitler and Goebbels” and then “add to others over time” – presumably when you find the information, which, as I’ve already pointed out, may well be never ever – is no way to do it. I suggest again that you add a column (like “known beliefs”) where you can put the information on Hitler and Goebbels. As it’s an additional column and we already have the minimal information on “legal affiliation” on all of them, I suppose we can afford blanks there then. And I don’t care about the order of the columns or other little details like that. I’m just saying: Don’t mix these things up, legal affiliation for one chancellor, actual beliefs for another, as if this were somehow equivalent. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 18:00, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I think having them both labeled Catholic causes more of a mix-up. Given this is the wiki for the Anglo-world where there are no legal affiliations only actual beliefs its more confusing given the oblivious anti-Catholicism of both men to label them as members of a religion they stopped following as soon as they left home. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:27, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I get it. But you don’t offer a solution to the problem that you would mess up the consistency of the whole table, if you just changed those two labels. Come up with something constructive. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 16:30, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Why not just do what is done for the religion of US Presidents? Given detailed views of their beliefs with some mention of official denomination. Also I just went through the source for Goebbels and I did not see a mention of Catholicism. I might have missed it, where was that located in the source? 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

That’s a bit what I was suggesting, although in two columns. Now, whether it’s done in two columns or one is kind of secondary. You can also just put all the information you have about each of them in one box in a descriptive text – and for some of them “all we have” will probably be the official denomination. Once again: As long as it’s done consistently for all of them, I’m not going to be one to complain. Concerning Goebbels, in the source given (Deutsche Biographie), he is mentioned as “katholisch” in the second line (just below his name and together with his dates of birth and death). “Catholic” here means “Roman Catholic”, because the only alternative – “Old Catholic” – would have been explicitly stated. In his diary entry I linked above, he also complains about the Vatican and the Church and says that he hates having to pay his church tax “for this nonsense”, because for tactical reasons Hitler won’t allow him to officially leave. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 09:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I think my computer's auto translate messed it up show that why I can't see it. Thanks for showing where it is. Also is there any way to check if Hitler himself every paid the church tax?

Hitler is also mentioned as Catholic in “Deutsche Biographie” – and his tactical position quite obviously wouldn’t have been different for himself than for Goebbels. Whether he actually paid church tax as dictator, I couldn’t say, because I don’t even know whether he paid any taxes – it’s quite plausible that paying taxes would have been judged incompatible with the dignity of his position as “Führer”. I don’t know anything about that. But he did have the legal membership status that would oblige you to pay church tax if you pay any income tax in the first place. Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 13:16, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

“Irreligious” is not an affiliation

When religious affiliations are listed, those of Ebert, Scholz etc. should be given as “none.” Religious affiliation in Germany is well-defined (as membership in a church or other state-recognized religious organization.) Quite a few Germans are not members of any such organization, but still consider themselves to be religious. The German term konfessionslos corresponds to “unaffiliated”, not “irreligious” (which would be religionslos or irreligiös in German.) —ThorstenNY (talk) 01:18, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

"None" sounds best to me, but I'll leave that to the native speakers (I would add that while it is true that quite some unaffiliated people are religious, the opposite is true as well: Quite some people affiliated with religious organisations are actually irreligious). Vollis (talk — user name changed from Sigur, see Special:Log/renameuser) 11:06, 9 December 2021 (UTC)