Talk:Renewal Front

Fascism

I've included fascism in the description of the party, as Peronism is considered one of the branches of fascism. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 16:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Undoing this edit, as it is in blunt contradiction with both WP:NPOV as well as WP:OR. Out of the sources you have given, the books by Brennan and Hayes were both published long before the party in question was even founded, and the article from La Nación makes no mention whatsoever of it having a supposed "fascist" ideology. If you are interested in the relationship between Peronism and Fascism, the place to discuss that would be on the Peronism main page, not here. (And as is already reflected by that page, there is of course no consensus according to which "Peronism is considered one of the branches of fascism".) Fogelstrom (talk) 17:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree, it's WP:OR to use a source in this way to formulate a conclusion. If they're described as Peronist by sources, we call them Peronist. Readers can then read our article on Peronism and form their own conclusions (and it isn't clear-cut that it is fascist). — Czello ^(music) 19:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

This seems to be a misunderstanding. It is well described that Peronism is a branch of fascism, check the article about Peronism again. Where have you seen that being disputed?

The reference to La Nación states that Renewal Front is Peronist. For most readers outside of Argentina, they will not know this is a branch of fascism, which is why it should be included. WP:OR is unrelated to this. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 19:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Peronism has been described as fascist, but it's not unambiguous. Indeed, our article says that many (not all) scholars define it as fascist; there's other labels associated with it, too.

Regardless, if anyone doesn't know what Peronism is then they simply click the link - it's not our job to guide their conclusions. We simply call Renewal Front what the sources call them verbatim. — Czello ^(music) 19:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

We also need to be careful about adopting false balance. Peronism is by all accounts a branch of fascism, that some may categorize it otherwise is fine, but we need to call an apple for an apple here. Have you seen reliable sources state that Peronism is not fascist? To my knowledge this was not a disputed topic. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 19:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

@Pedantic Aristotle: Regardless of whether they do or do not, that discussion or content belongs on the article about Peronism (and so I'd recommend moving any qualms about this over there), not on the individual articles of every party or person that claims to identify with it. HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 19:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

There are no qualms here, its a matter of highlighting important information, instead of hiding it. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

We're not hiding anything, we're using the description sources use — Czello ^(music) 20:55, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I never said it isn't fascist; see my earlier comment on why it isn't unambiguous. But also, per said comment, it's still not a reason to add it to this article — Czello ^(music) 20:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Not sure i get the problem. You mean there are not enough sources stating them as fascist? Or that some scholars are discussing the differences between Peronism and Italian fascism, and that its a separate branch of fascism?

If you need more sources, we can include the Montes De Oca book;

https://www.google.no/books/edition/El_fascismo_argentino/G_hjDwAAQBAJ

Its a bit like removing information that a Democratic socialist party is based on the ideology of socialism. Renewal Front is a modern iteration of the fascist ideology. In this case its very helpful to include it, because most people outside Argentina are not familiar with Peronism. Do they include other things than fascism? Sure, as do most political parties today, yet they are still usually classified in their respective branches. Peronism is a type of third position like other neo-fascist groups. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 00:03, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that the sources need to call Renewal Front fascist - not Peronism. Ultimately if people want to know what it is, they can click the link - it's not for us to say none-Argentines won't know the ideology and so we have to spell it out for them. That's why we wikilink.

Your democratic socialist analogy is a good one: take Labour Party (UK) as an example. We call them democratic socialist (and social democratic), but we don’t then spell out that these are sub-ideologies of socialism. — Czello ^(music) 08:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

You may have a point, but democratic socialists didnt remove socialism form the name of their ideology in an attempt of white-labeling it. I've seen the term "Peronist fascism" used other places, which is what i included, as it is a more descriptive label. Opposition to this label seems to come from Peronists, but we may be putting undue weight on self-labeling, rather than external sources.

There are also notable sources discussing modern Peronism as fascist, but i would need to recheck the sources if they mention Renewal Front specifically, even though it is one of the two main Peronist parties. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, though, the question of whether Peronism is fascist isn't what's relevant. We just describe the party what sources describe the party as. No more, no less. Whether Peronism is fascist is really a matter for that article. — Czello ^(music) 19:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

See reply to Czello Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 19:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)