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Talk:Republic of China (1912–1949)/Archive 3

< Talk:Republic of China (1912–1949)
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Khajidha in topic change the title to The time of the R.O.C. Government in Mainland China
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Requested move 1 May 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago13 comments8 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


Republic of China (1912–1949) → Republican China – I propose to rename and shorten this article to just "Republican China" per WP:COMMONNAME, much as the Wang Jingwei regime and Nazi Germany. Most historical sources refer to the pre-1949 period of China as "Republican China" or "Republican era", which that latter may be also renamed to. I don't think there could be a gap in periods between the First Republic (1912–27), Second Republic (1927–49) or Third Republic (1949–present). 108.162.177.213 (talk) 05:30, 1 May 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock. Dekimasuよ! 20:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • oppose. "Republic of China" was the name of the state then. "Republican China" is like "Imperial China" for pre-1912 China, "Communist China" for post-1949 China. It’s a way of referring to it but is neither a formal nor informal name, is just one way of describing it. Plus "Republican China" is likely to be easily confused with "Republic of China", and so with the modern usage for it, as the formal name of Taiwan.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 06:26, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong Support per WP:NATURAL and WP:COMMONNAME. "Republican China" is the most common term used exclusively to refer to the Republic of China's mainland period. The most authoritative example is probably The Cambridge History of China, which uses the term as the title of Volumes 12 and 13: Republican China, 1912–1949 (see [1]). Tens of thousands of other examples can be found on Google books. The current title is so unwieldy that many people simply don't bother with it. I've had to correct numerous wrong links for people born in Republican China but their country of birth was incorrectly linked to Republic of China, which is a redirect to Taiwan. -Zanhe (talk) 18:41, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Republic of China" is far more common than "Republican China," according to this ngram. As noted below, "Republican China" represents an attempt to distinguish the 1912-1949 regime from post-1949 Taiwan. The term did not arise until the 1960s, long after the KMT had fled to Taiwan. That Republic of China is a redirect to Taiwan is a travesty. The KMT no longer holds sway in either China or Taiwan, yet it somehow retains a clique of reality-denying supporters on Wikipedia. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 22:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
    • The UN Charter, issued in 1945, lists "Republic of China" as a permanent member of the Security Council. This is a big part of the reason why the Nationalists on Taiwan were anxious to retain the ROC moniker. But of course the reference is clearly to the subject of this article, and not to Taipei. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 02:41, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
  • You seem to suggest that this article should be moved to Republic of China. While the idea is not without merit, I don't think it's going to get much support as long as ROC is still the official name of Taiwan. Since that title is unavailable to us, "Republican China" is the next best option, IMO. -Zanhe (talk) 16:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • They are identical. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying Frank Hsieh was born in Republican China. It's just not commonly done because Republican China only ruled Taiwan for four years before being reduced to ROC on Taiwan, and its rule of Taiwan is customarily lumped with the latter period. -Zanhe (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 25 May 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago22 comments10 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Republic of China (1912–1949) → Republic of China – The "Republic of China" lemma currently points to Taiwan. Only one of the top five DuckDuckGo results refers to Taiwan, so this primary redirect is not driven by reader preference. The UN and most nations derecognized the ROC back in the 1970s. The Taiwanese government is saddled with a constitution that makes ROC the official name. But it no longer promotes either the name itself or the implied ideology that Taiwan represents an alternative China. Yet Wikipedia seems to exist in a time warp. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 12:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC) Nine Zulu queens (talk) 12:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Longstanding consensus has "Republic of China" correctly redirected to Taiwan. This move request would disrupt that snowball consensus and history, so I see no reason for the move. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
AND this was just suggested 3 weeks ago, failed, and was closed by Dekimasu. This is a disruptive request in my opinion! Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
The RM immediately above was to move this article to Republican China. The purpose was to allow "Republic of China" to refer exclusively to Taiwan. So it is a proposal in the opposite direction as this one. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Yep sorry... that was a misread on my part. I have struckthru part of it. I still completely oppose the requested move though. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Search engine test. A google search is very useful in finding sources, and so finding what they say about a subject. But the actual results returned on their own are much less useful. We don’t know what criteria companies like Google, DuckDuckGo use to rank their results. They can vary over time, by where you are when you search, even by your own searching habits. The fact that Google’s first results (for me) are Wikipedia pages shows this, as we cannot use what Wikipedia says as a guide to anything.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 00:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Google's algorithm is considered a jewel of the tech industry. It's primary purpose is to present the reader with a page of results that represent his likely interests. If the term ROC was generally understood to refer to Taiwan, Google would return a page of solid Taiwan-related results. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 00:28, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Google is great for finding sources, but not the order of the sources. You can pay Google to have your stuff appear higher up in the hierarchy. I'm not saying they did that here, but the order is at Googles will. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:35, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
If you are suspicious of Google, by all means check Bing or DuckDuckGo. The essay JB links to criticizes Google hit counts, but I am not using them. For our purpose, the main problem with Google is that it is unduly influenced by Wikipedia. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

To Kiore: Amitie 10g support the two proposals "to rename back China to People's Republic of China, and Taiwan to Republic of China" and "to make the article current named "Taiwan" as Republic of China-only" in the talk page Talk:Taiwan, and I agree with Amitie 10g, but the two proposals were finally refused. You can make your comments about the two proposals in the talk page Talk:Taiwan.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.124.233.241 (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Those changes are almost the opposite of anything useful. The article on Taiwan is about the island, currently controlled by the Republic of China, the article China is about the rest of the nation, currently controlled by the People's Republic of China. Kiore (talk) 07:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

To Fyunck(click): Please don't delete my comments again. The thing mentioned by myself but deleted by yourself just now is relevant to the proposal of Nine Zulu queens because Nine Zulu queens wants to merge the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)" into the article current named "Taiwan". It is also relevant to Kiore because Kiore is surprised to find that Republic of China is taken to an article on Taiwan the island.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.124.233.241 (talk) 05:50, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks like canvassing and speaking for someone else to me. I'll leave it but it certainly does not need to be posted twice in a row. Plus with you sockpuppeting other articles it's now hard to take you seriously. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:57, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
There isn't any sockpuppet of myself, so please take me seriously.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.124.233.241 (talk) 07:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV-pushing or history re-writing

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Not sure why this edit (mobile) is allowed to stand, it basically states that the present-day Republic of China is unrelated to this one or that this country was fully dissolved when it lost most of its territory. I fail to see how these edits are anything but misleading, this seems to be written either from a Communist or Taiwan independence perspective as both claim that the PRC is the only legitimate government of China and replaced the ROC. This is in fact an era of ROC history as it did not end in 1949 and the Beiyang is more radically different from the KMT government of the 1930's than the KMT government of the 1960's is from it. There should not be a "one China policy" on Wikipedia other than WP:COMMONNAME (which doesn't deny that the ROC exists, only that it is usually called something else). --Donald Trung (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2018 (UTC)


I very much support this line of reasoning. The arguments are too focused on international recognition and ideological narratives, instead of on the most important aspect, which is continuity of government. The government personnel physically moved the capital, and has maintained active sovereignty since 1912; the case about the Beiyang episode and warlords period of multiple contenders for government is the perfect example of why the "one China" narrative should not be embraced by wikipedia in the present circumstance. If the government that currently sits in Taipei is officially the "Republic of China" and always has been, then the pages for "Taiwan" and "Republic of China" should be merged. The common vernacular of saying "Taiwan" is a linguistic shorthand and not a statement regarding sovereignty.

--User:The Mattador (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Infobox changing has to stop

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

We seem to have multiple anon IP's changing the infobox flag info. IP's such as 219.142.19.198, 114.253.197.232, 58.135.126.34, 183.179.168.62, 123.124.233.241, etc... They have been reverted by many editors but this has to stop. It's been going on at least since March so I'm reporting it to administration. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:13, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Latest comment: 6 years ago8 comments5 people in discussion

I see that lots of articles link to Republic of China (which redirects to Taiwan) but refer to events in mainland China in 1912–1949. Should these wikilinks be changed to point to this article instead? A few typical examples:

  • 1913 in aviation: The Republic of China obtains twelve military aircraft from France.
  • Events preceding World War II in Asia: …the Qing Dynasty, which was replaced by a republic, the Republic of China, in 1912.
  • Zhu Xingyuan: ….was a politician and diplomat in the Republic of China. [He was active 1912–42.]

I'm happy to make a list and do the changes with JWB. However, I realise that there are a range of views on the status of the Republic, so I'll leave the articles alone unless there's general agreement to change. Thanks, Certes (talk) 00:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I am not reviving any proposals to edit the redirect Republic of China or to move any pages. I would simply replace [[Republic of China]] by [[Republic of China (1912–1949)|Republic of China]] in articles which clearly refer to events before 1949. Certes (talk) 00:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
That doesn't sound controversial at all, yes they're the same country but technically the United Kingdom is the same country as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland as well (as all of its laws are still in effect in England, Scotland, Etc.) this just specifies the time period, it doesn't distract from the current Republic of China at all, I don't see why you're trying to get consensus for something so uncontroversial. --Donald Trung (talk) 14:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
That seems like the right thing to do in the cases you mention. The Republic of China in each case is clearly the one in this article. Linking them to the modern state of Taiwan is likely to be confusing.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 14:44, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I've fixed the first 50 articles and will resume tomorrow if no one complains. Certes (talk) 17:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for taking on this useful work!ch (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I've fixed all the cases I can find (878 pages), though I expect there will be more. Please can a subject expert edit these articles, where I'm unsure which Republic of China article should be linked?

Please feel free to revert any I've got wrong (or fix those I missed). Certes (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

List of republics#Unitary republics is correct if the ROC on Taiwan is actually unitary (I see no evidence to the contrary); the ROC on the mainland is described in the infobox at Republic of China (1912–1949) as federal during the Beiyang government, but there is no citation for this. Dutch–Indonesian Round Table Conference is tricky as the signing as the period from drafting to signing straddles the establishment of the PRC on 1 Oct 1949. There is no mention in the article whether Nationalist representatives were present at the signing in November of that year. The links in both instances at [undefined] Error: {{Lang}}: invalid parameter: |[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title= (help) are wrong, as "establishment" of the ROC can only refer to Dr. Sun's 1912 creation (even though the specific claim in question is unreferenced); I have corrected them. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 20:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Multiple errors

Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I just undid a series of anon edits, fixing a number of errors, including:

  • The subject of the article is the Republic of China, i.e. the state that existed between the Qing dynasty and the end of the Civil War. The first sentence should say what it was, per the guidelines and just good writing style.
  • The common name of the country then was China, the same before and since.
  • The successor states are China, Taiwan and Mongolia. There is no need to make it any more complex than that, no need to change the order.

The jist of all of these seems to be another attempt to assert that the state in this article is the same as the modern state Taiwan. But no, they are not the same thing. China now is recognised as the modern successor of this state, if any state is.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:47, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Objection, the Republic of China title is still used in Taiwan much like Cuba kept its official name the Republic of Cuba after 1959. The ROC did not use the title "Taiwan" until the 1970s since it was still known by most sources internationally as "China" (by the UN and some US historians) or less common, "Formosa". So I much prefer to use, per WP:COMMONNAME China as "Communist China" and Taiwan as "China" in the succession box since the U.S. government used these naming conventions in the 1950s and 1960s. This is similar to the Soviet occupation of the Baltics because the PRC was not a internationally recognized state at that time. John, the war actually stopped when they just took Hainan in 1950. 108.162.177.213 (talk) 11:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– The successors of Republic of China between 1912 and 1949 are People's Republic of China, Republic of China (Taiwan) and Mongolian People's Republic. Here are the reasons:

First, Outer Mongolia was a part of China until January 5, 1946, when Republic of China between 1912 and 1949 offically recognized its independence. It made Mongolian People's Republic, which de facto controlled Outer Mongolia at that time, become a sovereign state. Thus, Mongolian People's Republic is one of the successors of Republic of China between 1912 and 1949, not Mongolia, which was established by revising the Constitution of Mongolia in 1992.

Second, after the ending of Chinese Civil War between 1946 and 1950, People's Republic of China was established on October 1, 1949 in Mainland China; the Government of the Republic of China moved to Taiwan on December 7, 1949, but remains "Republic of China" as its official name from then on. Thus, People's Republic of China and Republic of China (Taiwan) are the successors of Republic of China between 1912 and 1949. Use "People's Republic of China" to distinguish from its predecessor "Republic of China" between 1912 and 1949, because they are known as "China". The term "Republic of China (Taiwan)" can better describe the regime which is named as "Republic of China" and de facto controls Taiwan since 1949. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Actually the Republic of China has controlled Taiwan since 1945, not just 1949. RitKill (talk) 07:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Change some content in the infobox of this article to make it more accurate and rigorous

Latest comment: 6 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Firstly, the "National Flag Anthem of the Republic of China" was adopted in 1937, instead of 1947 as the infobox recorded.

Secondly, the map. All territory of the Republic of China showed by the map "File:Republic of China (orthographic projection, historical).svg" remained too shortly (only two months), between 25 October 1945, when Republic of China got the sovereignty of Taiwan island and Penghu islands back from Japan, and 5 January 1946, when Republic of China offically recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia. Thus, I think we should use the map "File:1947 Zhonghua Minguo Quantu.png" to show all territory of the Republic of China in Chinese Civil War between 1946 and 1949.

Thirdly, there are three successors of the Republic of China between 1912 and 1949, People's Republic of China (established on 1 October 1949, the end of Chinese Civil War), Republic of China ("Republic of China" still exists, although it only de facto controls Taiwan area from 1949, the end of Chinese Civil War) and Mongolian People's Republic (Outer Mongolia used to be a part of China. Republic of China offically recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia on 5 January 1946, when Mongolian People's Republic de facto controlled Outer Mongolia.) Please use the official names of the three regimes mentioned above. Otherwise, it will make unnecessary mess, conflict and depute.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.253.192.110 (talk) 12:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Mongolia became independent in 1911 and Tibet in 1912. What Beijing or Nanjing recognized should not be treated as the end of the story. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with you. Qing dynasty remained the sovereignty of Outer Mongolia and Tibet from later 17th century–early 18th century to its collapse in 1912 (see Mongolia under Qing rule and Tibet under Qing rule). Republic of China succeeded all sovereignty from Qing dynasty in 1912, including Outer Mongolia and Tibet (see 1912年《清室退位诏书》 "仍合满、汉、蒙、回、藏五族完全领土为一大中华民国"). Thus, Republic of China remained the sovereignty of Outer Mongolia and Tibet (see 1912年《中华民国临时约法》 "第一章 总纲, 第三条 中华民国领土为二十二行省、内外蒙古、西藏、靑海。"; 1913年《中华民国宪法草案》（天坛宪草） " 第二章 国土, 第二条 中华民国国土依其固有之疆域。国土及其区划，非以法律不得更变之。"; 1914年《中华民国约法》 "第一章 国家, 第三条 中华民国之领土依从前帝国所有之疆域。"; 1923年《中华民国宪法》（曹锟宪法) "第三章 国土, 第三条 中华民国国土依其固有之疆域。国土及其区划非以法律不得变更之。"; 1931年《中华民国训政时期约法》 "第一章 总纲, 第一条 中华民国领土为各省及蒙古西藏。"; 1936年《中华民国宪法草案公布案》（五五宪草） "第一章 总纲, 第四条 中华民国领土为江苏、浙江、安徽、江西、湖北、湖南、四川、西康、河北、山东、山西、河南、陕西、甘肃、青海、福建、广东、广西、云南、贵州、辽宁、吉林、黑龙江、热河、察哈尔、绥远、宁夏、新疆、蒙古、西藏等固有之疆域。中华民国领土，非经国民大会议决不得变更。"). All unilateral independence declarations of Outer Mongolia and Tibet are null. "Republic of China offically recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia on 5 January 1946, when Mongolian People's Republic de facto controlled Outer Mongolia." (see 外蒙古独立_百度百科#事件过程#国民政府承认#"国民政府发表公告承认外蒙独立"以及图片"1946.1.5民国承认外蒙古独立"). In conclusion, Mongolian People's Republic succeeded part sovereignty from Republic of China. In other words, Mongolian People's Republic is one of the successors of Republic of China between 1912 and 1949.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.192.186.167 (talk) 09:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Up until 1860, the Qing emperor considered himself to be ruler of the world. If we go by the official record (清實錄/Qingshilu), England, the papacy, and Vietnam were all vassal states of the Qing. So there is no limit to what China could claim.
The Qing Empire stationed "ambans" in Tibet, Mongolia, and Korea. These can be thought of as equivalent to ambassadors, although the concept of international relations did not exist at the time. At any rate, the Qing treated these non-Chinese regions quite differently than they did provinces in China proper. The later had provincial governors, circuits, and prefectures. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 10:42, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Please read the article History of the administrative divisions of China before 1912#Provinces and Feudatory Regions under the Qing dynasty first. Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang are administrative divisions of the Qing dynasty. The emperors of the Qing dynasty appointed administrative officers of generals to rule the regions mentioned above, instead of the so-called "ambassadors" you said. By the way, you should study Chinese history very hard. Otherwise, you will still misunderstand Chinese history, and put forward absurd points of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.124.233.238 (talk) 06:28, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 September 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

請將1912~1949 的1949改為“至今”，因為中華民國至今依然存在于中華民國台灣，我認為這樣寫是對於中華民國也是對台灣方面的不尊重，不可避免的使我感到憤怒。對於中國大陸當局而言，中華民國于1949年就滅亡了，然而對於台灣方面，以及對於海外華人，以及現實大情況而言，中華民國依然存在。維基百科作為獨立自由的機構，所用的資料應該是完全中立的立場，不應該偏向某一方。作為中立的國際立場，應該尊重國際所認知的九二共識即一中個表原則，尊重中華民國國民，尊重中華民國台灣的尊嚴。即使大部分人認為中華民國已經滅亡，也應該尊重少部分人的認知與尊嚴，更何況這少部分人只是相對而言的少，其實並不少。若不能改成至今，那也請務必把該詞條後面加上 有爭議 的標籤，這是維基百科應該做的，這涉及了國家已經國民尊嚴的問題，希望予以解決。 --MRhaast (talk) 05:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)Rhhast Ma MRhaast (talk) 05:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  Not done 這涉及了國家已經國民尊嚴的問題: Except the purpose of Wikipedia is not to bolster any one people's identity or even to foster nationalism, per WP:POV. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 05:36, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Root of the argument: semantics

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Our earnest editors have descended into a political argument which is simply unnecessary. They seem to have forgotten that the title of the article is "Republic of China". Until the recent DPP intercessions, there was only ever one regime laying claim to ruling that entity - that led by the KMT - and they did so before and after 1949. The territory of the sovereign state of China was divided by civil war and two competing political groupings claimed the right of administration over the whole notwithstanding exercising control over only part - one, the pre-existing KMT regime, one the newly founded People's Republic. The former ran straight through 1949 but sovereignty became a matter of dispute and tension due to the creation of the latter. Hence, the amendment to the lead I have provided, which circumscribes the article to the period during which there was no such competing interest. All controversy thus falls away and can be left to post-1949 history and nothing to do with this article at all. I sincerely hope this will calm nerves on both sides. (And forgive me teaching all to such eggs; I merely wanted to expose the fallacy of arguing about nothing more than semantics here) sirlanz 14:45, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Some errors that need to be modified

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"Anthem below the right side of the flag, "五旗共和歌（Five Flags of the Republican Song）" should be changed to "五族共和歌（Song of Five Races Under One Union）". And picture on the right has too much influence on the paragraph display. It is recommended to use the table to arrange or to fold the infobox of the "History of Republic of China ". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 复旦大学张超 (talk • contribs) 16:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

"was" a state in East Asia.

Latest comment: 5 years ago29 comments11 people in discussion

This entire article is written as if the Republic of China no longer exists, often implying that it's government collapsed in 1949, in fact I'd say that there's a larger difference between the Beiyang Period and the KMT period then between the KMT rule over the Mainland, and the KMT being forced to reduce their territory to Taiwan, and Fu-Kien/Fujian. "Taiwan" is not a "successor state" to the Republic of China, it is the Republic of China, and yes I think that this article should remain separate of the current Republic of China article, but I think that it should be heavily rewarded to indicate this as a period of Chinese history rather than a singular state that ceased to exist.

--1.55.196.214 (talk) 14:45, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

It’s not the same thing as the modern ROC, i.e. Taiwan. The world recognises China as the successor state to the pre-1949 Republic of China, has done for decades. This is the basis of America’s One China Policy, and most countries have some version of it. Or, to put it more simply, Republic of China (1912–49) describes a sovereign state, China is a sovereign state, Taiwan is not, is not recognised as such by all other states, bar a small number of tiny states. If Taiwan is not a sovereign state it logically is not the same as the one described in this article, no matter what the government of Taiwan claims or once claimed.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Agreed with 1.55.196.214, this article makes no sense. The current Republic of China was not founded after 1949. It is the very same one that fought in WW2, did Northern Expedition and etc. There was no break in continuity of the nation. All of this should be placed under one Republic of China article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.62.170.217 (talk) 06:06, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree. Taiwan and ROC are not the same thing. Taiwan is an island; ROC is a state, formerly in control (well, more or less) of all China, and in control of Taiwan since the Japanese surrender in 1945. Taiwan and the ROC have a very different history prior to the retreat in 1949. If the US lost all its territory but Maine, would it suddenly make sense to say Maine and the United States are the same thing? Kiralexis (talk) 23:36, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
So, in the interest of clarity, you believe the ROC miraculously winked out of existence in 1949, despite holding Taiwan and Hainan and continuing to contest areas of the mainland militarily? And despite being recognized by most of the world, while the PRC was mainly recognized at that time by the Communist states? How convenient for the CPC! Kiralexis (talk) 23:30, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
I agree that this makes no sense. The Republic of China never stopped existing as an entity, so to refer to it in the past tense is misleading. Yes, the territory it governed became a lot smaller, but never went away. The question isn't about which is the successor as the "one true China", merely about what happened to the Republic of China as a state rather than its territory. And we all know what happened: they retreated to Taiwan, which along with the surrounding islands is the territory they currently govern. CodeCat (talk) 22:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
it’s not the same thing: the modern Republic of China is not the same thing as this one, it’s just that they share the same [formal] name. The world overwhelmingly recognises China as being the same country as this one. Taiwan is not only not recognised as such, it’s not even considered a sovereign state by most. So it makes no sense to claim it Taiwan is the same thing as Republic of China (1912–49).--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 10:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Then the modern United States is not the same thing as the state that was founded over 200 years ago as well, or United Kingdom for that matter. It is not just merely sharing the name. Taiwan being governed under Republic of China had and has modern implication. It is the basis of the "One China" policy, which whether you like it or not, hindered how Taiwan is represented in the international community. It also had implication of US's relations with Taiwan and PRC. The leader that ruled Taiwan for almost the next 30 years was the same that ruled the mainland before 1949. His refusal to be independent and desire to fight back the mainland, with the support and formal recognition by the United States, essentially got Taiwan where it is right now in terms of international recognition. Also, the relocation of the ROC government resulted in migration into Taiwan. Pretending to be unrelated states doesn't provide a complete story of how things become where it is, but more of a scenario for those who think things ought to be.Acnetj (talk) 20:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
If it's not the same thing before and after 1949, then why did so many of the world's countries recognise it as the same thing for decades after 1949? Why did the UN recognise it as the same? RitKill (talk) 14:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

When people talk about China they almost always mean the PRC. That's a given. But that doesn't mean that the RoC hasn't been a continuous entity. Even our own article on the Chinese Civil War explains that the ROC retreated to Taiwan, not that it disbanded and reformed. And we all know that the reason for the One China Policy being upheld by most countries is purely political, and nothing to do with whether ROC is a country. ROC obviously didn't end in 1949 as it was a sitting member of the UN and the UN Security Council until 1971. But when the PRC took ROC's seat it didn't suddenly delegitimise ROC's existence since 1949. The article should be carefully worded, of course, but the current form shows a strong bias towards the PRC's philosophy. Perhaps the article should refer to 1912–1949 as a 'period' of the ROC? Mnealon (talk) 11:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the era charts found in books on Chinese history, including our own chart, the "Republic of China" is the 1912-1949 era. That's what this article should be about. Articles on former states are common on Wikipedia, but not so much in published historical writing. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Obviously the ROC's significance to the place we call "China" diminished significantly in 1949, but that doesn't mean that the ROC stopped existing, or that it became a brand new state. Pretty much everyone who still recognised the ROC at all recognised it as the same state as before – including the ROC government itself and the local government of Taiwan, not to mention the US and the UN etc.. RitKill (talk) 06:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I have changed the introduction text to say: "The Republic of China (Chinese: 中華民國, Chunghwa Minkuo) is a sovereign state in East Asia that from 1912 to 1949 occupied the territories of modern China, ..." I made the change because the government of Taiwan is still, to this day, the Republic of China, and all evidence points to this being the same Republic of China that was founded in China in 1912. Evidence includes: The ROC itself recignises itself as the same state; the UN recognised it as the same state until 1971; the US recognised it as the same state until 1978 (indeed any country that recognised the ROC at all after 1949 (and most countries did for at least a while) recognised it as the same state); the provincial government of Taiwan recognised itself as a province of the ROC before and after 1949, without itself changing at the time of the transition (and the same for Kinmen and Matsu); it had the same armed forces, who simply relocated themselves to be in Taiwan (or Kinmen etc.). Please respond to this before reverting back to saying "was a state", which is false. RitKill (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

1971. Yes, once the UN (and so the international community) considered Taiwan to be the legitimate successor to the Republic of China but they corrected that error almost 50 years ago. Now the UN, all major international bodies and all but a handful of small countries recognise China, and only China, as the rightful successor to this Republic of China. Even Taiwan has stopped insisting everyone recognise it as the legitimate authority over the whole of China.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 15:53, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
"the UN ... considered Taiwan to be the legitimate successor to the Republic of China" No, that is a false statement. The UN has never recognised "Taiwan" as a state at all. That is regrettable in my view, but it is a fact. It did recognise the Republic of China as a state from the UN's creation in 1945 until 1971. You can say that they were wrong to recognise ROC as the government of China for most of that time, but you can't change the fact that they did. More importantly, the ROC itself recognises itself as the same state that was founded in 1912. Indeed, anyone who still recognises the ROC at all recognises it as the same ROC that governed mainland China until 1949. RitKill (talk) 18:32, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, what about Kinmen and Matsu? They were part of the ROC from 1912 to the present day. Are you saying they suddenly switched to a different ROC some time in 1949? Can you give a precise date of when it changed? RitKill (talk) 18:34, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Taiwan was recognised, until 1971. See Taiwan#Foreign relations. Whatever recognition there was ended 47 years ago. Whether you think something changed then, or whether it was just the UN waking up to reality and correcting an error, for over 40 years China has been recognised as the legitimate successor to this Republic of China, and it makes no sense to say it is the same as Taiwan, also known as the Republic of China.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 19:29, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
"China has been recognised as the legitimate successor to this Republic of China" This statement makes no sense as written – you mean the People's Republic of China has been recognised widely as the successor to the Republic of China. But that's not really the point, the point is that the Republic of China continued to be widely recognised for decades after 1949, and of course still recognises itself to this present day. It's the same Republic of China, not a new one – when was this supposed new Republic of China founded exactly? Who claims to have founded it? Why was Taiwan celebrating the 100th anniversary of the founding of the republic just recently in 2011 if it is, as you claim, a brand new Republic of China? RitKill (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
And btw, while it's OK to say casually that "Taiwan was recognised [by the UN] until 1971", it's important to understand that this is not language the UN used at the time. Actually the UN recognised the Republic of China as the government of "China" until 1971. In the context of the present day, we usually use the term "Taiwan" to mean the Republic of China (or the free area thereof), and "China" to mean the People's Republic of China. But the terms "China" and "Taiwan" mean different things to different people and in different contexts, so please try to be precise in what you write. RitKill (talk) 20:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
It is not the same. Just because two things have the same name does not make them the same. See e.g. many places called Chester. The government of Taiwan can call themselves the Republic of China, and claim to rule all of China, but this corresponds to no reality and is recognised by basically no-one.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 22:29, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
It's not just the same name. The Republic of China before and after 1949 had the same constitution, the same president Chiang Kai-Shek, the same laws, the same legislature and other bodies of government, the same army, held the same seat in the UN and had the vast majority of their diplomatic relations intact (for a while at least). Of course the territory it controlled was much reduced (down to just Taiwan, Kinmen, Matsu, Hainan (until 1950) and a few smaller islands), but this was all territory that it controlled before 1949 as well. (Besides, the loss of territory was a progressive process, it didn't all happen overnight.) Can the same be said of any two places called Chester? RitKill (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, please clarify: When exactly are you claiming the "new" Republic of China was founded, and when exactly did the "old" Republic of China cease to exist? RitKill (talk) 23:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

"the same constitution, the same president...". But none of that matters as it was 50, 60, 70 years ago. The world was a very different place then, Taiwan especially so. It is not the same as this Republic of China. For one the ROC then was a sovereign independent state. Taiwan isn’t.

Or, to look at it a different way, and answer your last question, The KMT lost the Chinese civil war. The communists won, took control of China, founded the successor state to this Republic, and have been in charge for almost 70 years. It is nonsensical for the loosing side to claim they are the same country as before 1949, as if the war never happened. And so 1949 is the best date to use for the establishment of Taiwan, although it’s always contentious and tricky when a conflict ends without a formal surrender or peace treaty.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 12:09, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

"none of that matters as it was 50, 60, 70 years ago" Of course it still matters – we're talking about history here. You are claiming that the Republic of China of 1950 was a different Republic of China to that of 1948. Please kindly cite any country, organisation, politician, historian or anybody else who agrees with this, i.e. recognised the ROC before and after 1949 but who recognised them as different ROCs.
(editing my response, after re-reading your post) "And so 1949 is the best date to use for the establishment of Taiwan" So you're admitting that there wasn't actually any formal establishment of a new state? I'm happy to accept that 1949 is a reasonable cut-off date for the contents of the article, but I don't accept that a new state was actually created – and the state itself certainly doesn't, neither now nor at the time. Do you have a specific date of when you believe the new state was created? Did the old state cease on the same day? RitKill (talk) 13:56, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
As for saying that "The KMT lost the Chinese civil war", I don't think this is an objective fact. Clearly, they mostly lost the civil war, but the war didn't end in 1949, the KMT never conceded defeat, and still held on to territory. The Wikipedia article on the Chinese Civil War states the end as 1950 (i.e. after 1949), but also states: "no armistice or peace treaty has ever been signed, and the debate continues as to whether the civil war has legally ended." You cannot state definitively that the KMT "lost" in 1949. RitKill (talk) 14:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
"The world was a very different place then, Taiwan especially so" Of course Taiwan is very different now than in the 1940s, but those changes didn't all happen in 1949. Arguably the Constitution of the Republic of China adopted in 1947, the lifting of Martial law in Taiwan in 1987, or the constitutional reforms of the 1990s and 2000s that created the democracy we know today are at least as significant. Does each one of those mean a new state was created?
"Taiwan isn’t [a sovereign independent state]" As I said previously, terms like "Taiwan" are ambiguous and it's important to be precise. I assume by "Taiwan" you're referring to the "new" Republic of China? If so, then the UN recognised this as a sovereign, independent state until at least 1971. The US recognised it as a state until at least 1978 (it's position on the matter after 1978 is deliberately ambiguous). The republic itself has been able to apply its own laws (and no-one else's) unhindered over the island of Taiwan (and other islands) continuously since 1945 (or, I guess, whenever you believe the state was founded). If that's not an independent sovereign state, then what is? RitKill (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
JohnBlackburne, I see that on 20 September 2018 you removed the disputed tag, saying it was "stale". I'm disappointed, frankly, that you would stoop to this rather than engage in the discussion, which is clearly awaiting your further input. Do you have any response to the points above? RitKill (talk) 16:42, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I see the dispute continues over whether to consider Taiwan as a new state or as a new phase of the state described here, and the repercussions for this article. Why, out of interest, can it not be argued that the modern-day Taiwan is the same state, albeit with a far smaller geographical territory? I find the arguments of User:RitKill extremely powerful. Harfarhs (talk) 15:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
First, wikipedia should be a place to list the summary of the existing reliable source. Which by a rough reading in the news report inside Taiwan, the status was even disputed inside Taiwan, so wikipedia is not the best place to express only one opinion . For most of the "modern" time Taiwan was a colony of Japan, which no doubt reflected in their history book, while the ROC government, as the successor of Qing Empire, "resume" the control of Taiwan in 1945, as well as refugee and "immigrant" of Chinese from the Mainland, are recognized in their history book also. Also, the event of losing most of the territory was also recorded. However, some native claim the sovereignty of Taiwan are separate from the concept of China (Greater China or whatever), so it was hard to tell by common sense on the issue, but only summarize and list out the source on recognizing ROC as a predecessor of Taiwan or equal to Taiwan or not. Matthew hk (talk) 16:34, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Political status

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It seem it require reliable source to state the end date of military dictatorship, or the start date of zh:行憲, or both era can be overlap. The point is, instead of edit warring with ip yet again, please provide reliable source on classifying the late 1940s era as "Unitary parliamentary constitutional republic" or "military dictatorship". Matthew hk on public computer (talk) 07:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

-1949

Latest comment: 5 years ago11 comments7 people in discussion

As the article says in its first sentence, "The Republic of China was a state in East Asia from 1912 to 1949." It can be considered a period of Chinese History, but it also has a name, the Republic of China, distinct from the dynasties before and the People’s Republic of China that came after. Hence the article’s title, giving the same dates, which should match those in the infobox.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 22:17, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

As stated in Undo, please revise the title of the article. The content is about the Republic of China during 1912-1949, not the entire history that is still in continuation. The article could be titled something like the "Koumintang Sovereignty of Republic of China in Mainland China (1912-1949)", or simply the "History of Republic of china during 1912-1949". Please refer to the Post-World War II section of this article as an example and conformity: "For the history of Republic of China after 1949, see Taiwan." It clearly indicates that there is another article that is about the history of ROC after 1949. ROC simply didn't end in 1949, but part of the history did.
As of the result, the first sentence of the article is incorrect. It should be "The Republic of China was a state in East Asia from 1912 to present." It is still distinct from previous dynasties and apart from PROC, which ROC and PROC are two different sovereignties. In addition, as previously suggested by other users, this article should be merged with the article "History of Republic of China". However, if you insist the existence of this article, please revise accordingly to reflect the facts and avoid confusion.47.156.135.10 (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
You are wrong. This is about the country that was in existence between 1912 and 1949, primarily in mainland China. It is not the same thing as modern Taiwan. One simple reason: the Republic of China (1912–49) was a sovereign state. Taiwan is not a sovereign state and cannot be the same thing. So to write "The Republic of China was a state in East Asia from 1912 to present" makes no sense.
As for the article title, if you think it is wrong and needs to be changed then it requires a WP:requested move. But you should review this page and the archives for previous discussions, as you might find your proposed title or something similar has been considered and rejected before.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:55, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
What a unprofessional attack... Please cite reference when you claim someone is wrong.
The country of ROC still in existence[1], just not recognized by PRC; see Countries not recognized.
ROC has been a sovereign state by the wiki definition of "a nonphysical juridical entity that is represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." [2].
Calling the entity ROC or Taiwan is a separate discussion, but ROC simply did not ended in 1949. Wk taf (talk) 18:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
"The country of ROC still in existence". No, they are not the same thing. Just because the KMT decided to call their new state the Republic of China, it does not make them the same thing. For a while the world went along with this, while China was in chaos and when anti-communist sentiment was strongest. But this ended in the 1970s, over 40 years ago , and China is now seen as the successor state to this Republic of China.
So it makes no sense to identify this with Taiwan. They share a formal name but that means nothing. So do Macedonia and Macedonia but they are two distinct regions.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
They didn't form a new state. The existing state continued, but with most of its territory missing. CodeCat (talk) 11:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
No it did not. The world overwhelmingly recognises China as being the same country as this one, not Taiwan which is not even recognised as a independent country. I know sometimes the Taiwanese government likes to claim it is the rightful government of the whole of China, but no-one takes it seriously. I doubt even Taiwan does, as there is no plausible way they could assert their sovereignty over the whole of China, hasn’t been since 1949.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 23:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
The United Nations, which recognized the ROC as the continuing and sole representative of China until 1971, disagrees. When, exactly, did they say "oh, actually, we're expelling the True China - which is obviously PRC - from representation, and switching to a new state on Taiwan"? International consensus was that the ROC was the legitimate Chinese government well past 1949. Until the 1960s or later, that was the position of the majority of the world, with the Soviet bloc and a few outliers as exceptions. The "ROC post-1949 is a distinct state" argument is creating a new state out of whole cloth. Kiralexis (talk) 19:35, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Fact, is, in 1949, this period of Chinese history ended. It ended with the victory of the Communists in the Civil War and the establishment of the PRC in place of the previous Republic of China. You are right, for a while the world did not accept this outcome, and instead pretended Taiwan was still in charge, due to a combination of Cold-War politics and the chaos in China at the time. But they corrected this error decades ago. It’s not that the PRC came into existence in 1971. It was founded in 1949, coinciding with the end of this period of history. As seen when we recently discussed it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of China (1949–71). 1971 is not a significant date for China or Taiwan. The 1971 switch from recognising China instead of Taiwan is just one of a long series of steps taken in normalising relationships with China.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 20:13, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

The UN kept the Republic of China as a member until 1971; the United States kept diplomatic relations with the ROC until 1978; the Republic of Korea kept them until 1992. Meanwhile Taiwan, Jinmen and other islands have been governed continuously by the same government (namely the Republic of China) from 1945 to the present day. I just can't see how to square this with your idea that the original Republic of China ended in 1949 and a new one started. It seems clear to me that this is the same state, just with a (drastically) reduced territory and population and its government buildings in a different place. RitKill (talk) 07:37, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Since JohnBlackburne keeps pushing this idea of the ROC somehow not being in existence even though the entire governmental body simply relocated within its own defined territory; pray-tell how should the various European governments-in-exile in WW2, in which some were not even represented by their original governments, and/or with their national territories completely occupied (emphasis on completely), be treated? With the same logic these nations should also have stopped existing, with any successor state being distinctly 'different'. Hannhwa (talk) 07:04, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ ROC
  2. ^ Wiki definition

Disputed Tag

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Why on Earth was the disputed tag removed from the was claim below? There is no consensus from what I can see below, and I also can't see any sort of coherent argument for WHY the RoC of today is somehow different from the RoC of yesterday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.184.252.74 (talk) 16:13, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Back to was. What has to happen to stop people from doing that edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18d:c180:2a49:7866:c6f2:7beb:1015 (talk) 01:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Map

Latest comment: 5 years ago13 comments6 people in discussion

See the RfC close below.

Cunard (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So, to all ip that made undiscussed change of map:

(will add the full list later)

In wikipedia we use SVG map (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Diagrams and maps: "It is preferable that diagrams and maps be saved in the SVG file format". )

Also, the infobox had parameter |alt_map=, would you mind leaving some comment as part of a discussion ? Word of warning, someone else is not patient and warning you guys at Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946). Matthew hk (talk) 04:25, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I changed the infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)" for some reasonable reasons: the map "File:China 1933.jpg" shows the territories of the Republic of China between 1 January 1912, when it was established, and 25 October 1945, when it regained Taiwan from Japan, for nearly 33 years and 10 months. However, the map "File:Republic of China (orthographic projection, historical).svg" shows the the territories of the Republic of China between 25 October 1945, when it regained Taiwan from Japan, and 5 January 1946, when it officially recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia, for nearly only 2 months. By comparison, it is obvious that the map "File:China 1933.jpg" is more representative, reasonable and proper for the infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)", so please use the map "File:China 1933.jpg" for the only infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)" and never change it. 123.150.182.177 06:05, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
Well, would you consider |alt_map= for File:China 1933.jpg? Also, it need consensus to change the primary map of the infobox. Thus, before any consensus exist, please don't change it, nor canvassing people to made false support (other uninvolved editors, please see the vote move in Talk:CCTV New Year's Gala). Matthew hk (talk) 06:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
You don't understand what I said. 1. I just give my opinions and the reasonable reasons, and wait for the consensus achieved. I don't canvass here. I don't change the infobox map until the consensus achieved. 2. I give the reasonable reasons to prove "File:China 1933.jpg" is the only representative, reasonable and proper infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)", so it is redundant to use |alt_map=. 3. Off-topic, although the user 123.150.182.180 commented in "Talk:CCTV New Year's Gala", the comment was withdrawn soon. However, it is very strange that the user Matthew hk added it again without the user 123.150.182.180's agreement. I just remind Matthew hk: We are talking about the infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)". Let's concentrate on this discussion, instead of the off-topic thing. 123.150.182.179 06:32, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
I just want to point out that there was a bunch of ip that keep on changing the map of the related articles Nationalist government without any discussion documented in the talk page. Some angry user even shout out in Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946) to ask you guys to stop, and that thread was keep on remove by way many ip (including "you" as .180: Special:Diff/873650922), so either you have a team outside wikipedia to attack that same page or someone just keep on hopping ip. To prevent this case went to ANI again, may be i would use Wikipedia:Third opinion or WP:Rfc. Matthew hk (talk) 06:46, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
In the past I changed the infobox map without disscussion in the talk page. But from this time I won't do it again. I will discuss in the talk page first, and don't change the infobox map until the consensus achieved. In conclusion, we are talking about the infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)". Let's concentrate on this discussion, instead of the off-topic thing. 123.150.182.177 06:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Rfc on the primary map in the infobox

The consensus is for A. existing SVG map File:Republic of China (orthographic projection, historical).svg as the primary map in the infobox.

Cunard (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rfc on using which map is more suitable for encyclopedic purpose.

A. existing SVG map File:Republic of China (orthographic projection, historical).svg draw by wiki user (note, in case of anything wrong , we can ask the user to redraw the SVG)

B. use File:China 1933.jpg

C. other proposal such as use |alt_map=.

Note that both map (A,B) are de jure border. The border of effective control was constantly change due to foreign occupied (semi)-colony area (Outer Manchuria, etc.), as well as Japanese invasion (Taiwan, Manchukuo, etc) as well as self-declared independence (Mongolia, 1921), etc. RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 05:29, 5 May 2019 (UTC). Matthew hk (talk) 11:01, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Survey

  • B: The map "File:China 1933.jpg" shows the territories of the Republic of China between 1 January 1912, when it was established, and 25 October 1945, when it regained Taiwan from Japan, for nearly 33 years and 10 months. However, the map "File:Republic of China (orthographic projection, historical).svg" shows the the territories of the Republic of China between 25 October 1945, when it regained Taiwan from Japan, and 5 January 1946, when it officially recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia, for nearly only 2 months. By comparison, it is obvious that the map "File:China 1933.jpg" is more representative, reasonable and proper for the infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)", so it is better to use the map "File:China 1933.jpg" for the only infobox map of the article "Republic of China (1912–1949)" and never change it. 123.150.182.177 11:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

123.150.182.177, The jpg map is especially wrong on the color of Taiwan. Despite it had footnote saying it was ceded to Japan in Qing era, but not many people to click to enlarge large map to view it. Matthew hk (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

In the map "File:China 1933.jpg", the color of Taiwan is right. Taiwan was ruled by Japan between 1895 and 1945, which is known by most people. According to the map's name, we can use the map caption "Republic of China in 1930s" to describe the map. 123.150.182.179 11:17, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
If talking about de facto, Mongolia and Taiwan should have the same treatment for a 1930s map. Matthew hk (talk) 11:19, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
However, the map talks about the de jure thing. During 1930s, Republic of China recognized Taiwan is under Japanese rule, but insisted Outer Mongolia is a part of China. 123.150.182.177 11:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
So it is wrong to use it as the primary map. ROC occupied/resumed ruling of Taiwan from 1945-1949, and despite at that was under the era of the Civil war, both Communist and KMT treated Taiwan as part of China, and the current PRC government constantly want to gain control of Taiwan. Matthew hk (talk) 11:30, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
The map "File:China 1933.jpg" shows the territories of the Republic of China between 1 January 1912, when it was established, and 25 October 1945, when it regained Taiwan from Japan, for nearly 33 years and 10 months, the most part of the period when Republic of China controlled Chinese mainland. According to the map's name, we can use the map caption "Republic of China in 1930s" to describe the map. Taiwan was ruled by Japan between 1895 and 1945, which is known by most people. So the question you concerned doesn't exist. 123.150.182.179 11:37, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Why are there two green colors in the more recently drawn map, and is the reason explained somewhere? BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 00:51, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Some area are ceded/occupied by Russia sine late Qing or ceded to Japan since late Qing (Taiwan) or "de facto" independent as a puppet state/formal republic of the Soviet Union (Mongolia, Tuva). The ROC government still claimed the sovereignty on these land until PRC government signed a treaty with Soviet Union. Until today, ROC government existed in Taiwan. It is more a political agenda to use a jpg map that exclude Taiwan as part of China. It was well known in history book despite government at that time signed a "secret" treaty (see Twenty-One Demands) with Japan to recognize Taiwan as a colony of Japan, the civilian and later Chinese government recognized Taiwan and Manchukuo as war-occupied territories of Japan. The SVG reflect the de facto and de jure territories of China and the jpg map simply not correct in neither de facto and de jure. Matthew hk on public computer (talk) 08:49, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Regarding the map file copyright problem. In theory you can't assume a map published in 1933, that all the authors had been dead. But in practice it is too difficult to dig out the very origin of the map as the file only have the publisher "亞新地學社" on it, but without the info such as chief cartographer. So in practice it can be assumed as published by unknown human author so that the map was copyrighted until 1983. Or may be some even worse assumption, the map was published in ROC era in Wuhan, should the ROC (Taiwan) law still applies , or PRC law applies. Matthew hk (talk) 12:30, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Problem with item name

Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

I am a person born in Taiwan and hope to be concerned about Taiwan’s international image. Now I see the name of the entry for the "Republic of China (1912-1949)", which obviously has a big problem. First, since the founding of our country in 1912, China has Move to Taiwan after the failure of the civil war between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party in 1949. our country has continued to this day and did not end in 1949, even though it is not widely recognized. Second, unless this entry is used as an entry describing the history of the Republic of China, the terminology of this entry will seriously ignore the existence of the Republic of China that now in Taiwan. The content of this entry should be extended to the Republic of China, now in Taiwan, Otherwise it will be very disrespectful of my country. I will not force you to make any changes. I just hope that you can listen to the opinions of a Taiwanese，And let me give back to my country a little.Thanks. 禧和 (talk) 14:10, 29 July 2019 (UTC) — 禧和 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It was decided by a lots of wiki editors to call the country as Taiwan, while Taiwan Island (and Geography of Taiwan) cover the geography. Since you have zero edit, and other editors did not interested to re-open the discussion , so please accept the fact that in wikipedia we call it Taiwan. Matthew hk (talk) 16:21, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
It is common practice on Wikipedia to create separate articles for periods of history which can be differentiated from the general thread of a country's history (see: England in the Middle Ages, Francoist Spain, Edo period). Since there was a very significant difference between the two political entities, it is fair to treat the ROC that exists after the retreat to Taiwan as a separate topic, even though there is a continuity with the ROC that existed on the Mainland. Kdm852 (talk) 00:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
No country was founded in 1912 in Asia. The 1912 founded ROC is a succeeding government of the Great Qing, not a country. China is the country, but it was not founded in 1912. --Matt Smith (talk) 05:49, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change of rhetoric

Latest comment: 5 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

This discussion is closed. Please do not make further edits. 黃居士 (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Please read the following two sentences:

  • The Republic of China (ROC) was a sovereign country that existed between 1912 and 1949 in Mainland China, which is now controlled by the People's Republic of China.
  • In 1949, near the end of the Civil War, the Chinese Communist Party established the People's Republic of China, overthrowing the nationalist government on the Chinese mainland, with the nationalists moving their capital from Nanking to Taipei and controlling only the Taiwan area after 1949.
  1. The Constitution of the Republic of China (ROC) was promulgated in 1948, following which the Government is established in Nanjing, China. The first President of the ROC under the Constitution is Chiang Kai-shek. The current ROC was not formed in 1949.
  2. If you are trying to treat Taiwan and China as different countries and territories, I do not oppose this arrangement. In that case, the ROC Government would be a Government-in-exile that retreated to Taiwan, while its legitimacy in China/Zhongguo/Central Plains has been succeeded by the People's Republic of China.
  3. Do note that the United Nations recognised the Government of ROC as the sole legitimate representative of China until 1971, when "illegal" "representatives of Chiang Kai-shek" was expelled, and the "legitimacy" and "rights" of the PRC Government was restored.
  4. Taiwan is part of China (ROC) since 1945. In 1949, the ROC Government still controlled Dachen Islands, Hainan Islands and other islands now taken by the PRC. Do note that the current ROC still controls Dongsha Islands and Taiping Island in the South China Sea, and Kinmen and Matsu which belongs to the streamlined "Fujian Province".

Let's just say ROC totally loses its legitimacy in 1949 as a "China" Government, and now becomes "Taiwan" Government instead. Then I would agree with you that the "Republic of China on the mainland" no longer exists. Just my two cents.

黃居士 (talk) 03:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

If my last sentence is correct, all articles mentioning the current ROC should use the common name Taiwan. 黃居士 (talk) 04:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC) — 黃居士 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Man, the current ROC is located at Taiwan and Republic of China is a redirect. What do you really want? This article is about 中華民國 (大陸時期). Matthew hk (talk) 05:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the assertion regarding Taiwan in #4 is controversial. Just because the ROC claims that Taiwan "retroceded" does not make Taiwan really "retroceded". Some claims that the ROC's taking control of Taiwan in 1945 is merely a military occupation pending the final disposition of the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan. Therefore whether Taiwan became part of China in 1945 is debatable.--Matt Smith (talk) 05:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
This is not a single-purpose account. The users (including the admins) at Chinese Wikipedia know that I am an experienced Wikipedian since 2013. My previous account is locked. Anyway, I have no interest in a political argument, nor do I want to engage in doubts of whether I am a sockpuppet. It wastes my time actually. Not as if I really do care about how you write articles.
My main proposal is that "The Republic of China (ROC) was a sovereign country" is inaccurate as it still is a sovereign country. But if you treat both ROC mainland and ROC Taiwan as two countries, I have no issues with that. Wikipedia's guideline is WP:FAITH, I seem to experience hostility here. 黃居士 (talk) 07:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Matt, I didn't assert "Taiwan is part of China since 1945". I mean that the Nationalist Government of the Republic of China took over the occupation of Taiwan after the Second World War. Since then the island has been administered as Taiwan Province of ROC. On 1 October 1949, the PRC is established. The ROC Central Government relocated to Taipei in December 1949. I can agree that Taiwan is not part of China since 1949 if China refers to the PRC.--黃居士 (talk) 07:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This discussion is closed. Please do not make further edits. 黃居士 (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Currencies

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should regional currencies such as the North-eastern yuan (Zh-wiki link) and emergency currencies like the Chinese customs gold unit also be listed? In fact the currency system of this era is rather complicated and the current entry in the infobox barely does it any justice. --Donald Trung (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

The currencies you mention seem to have had too limited a circulation to be considered mentioning in the infobox here. The article on the old Yuan, linked to by the infobox mention, does briefly, but only briefly, mention those currencies. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Wiki rule = "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective."

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The Wiki rule WP:BIASED = RS do NOT have to be neutral--it's the article as a whole that needs balancing differing RS. The rule = "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." On most political issues like this one, it is very hard indeed to find reliable sources where the experts refuse to make evaluations of the various claims. Rjensen (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

change the title to The time of the R.O.C. Government in Mainland China

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

The editors should move page Republic of China (1912–1949) to The time of the R.O.C. Government in Mainland China

  1. the ROC did not disappear after 1949. The country was aggressed by the Soviet Union illegally and still certified as China by the UN before 1971. The original title is misleading.
  2. The page describes the period of the central government of the Republic of China in mainland China. The Republic of China (ROC) was a sovereign state, whose status is still disputed today. The Central Government of the Republic of China was located in mainland China from 1912 to 1949. Before 1945, Taiwan is ruled by Japan. After that, this country consisted of mainland China and Taiwan between 1945 and 1949 at the same time. After the Republic of China Army was defeated by the PLA, the central government of ROC moved to Taiwan.
  3. The title has broken Wikipedia:Article_titles#Non-judgmental_descriptive_titles, and make a judgement that implied the history of this country was over.
  4. The nutral name of this page in Chinese wikipedia is The time of the R.O.C. Government in Mainland China. So the country was not over at 1949.According to Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding_on_an_article_title, we should rename it.

Natureindex (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the current article name, Republic of China (1912–1949), has to mean that there's no continuation after 1949, although you think that it does. It's definitely more concise and specific than the wordy and vague The time of the R.O.C. Government in Mainland China. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the current article name Republic of China (1912–1949) is confusing and suggests that the said Republic no longer exists – and the introductory sentence also reiterates that. If the suggested new title is too wordy, then perhaps simply Republic of China on Mainland China could work? RitKill (talk) 09:58, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
That's still more vague than what we have, and potentially confusing, as what does "on Mainland China" mean: economic or diplomatic presence today, rather than once governing the area that is now the PRC? There's the hatnote at the top of the article that directs readers to Taiwan, which should make clear that "officially" the RoC continues, although it's now largely a pretense to call it that, and is inconsistent with Wikipedia usage. Dhtwiki (talk) 19:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any real issue with confusion with Republic of China in/on Mainland China. The contents of the article will still cover the time up to 1949, and I'm not sure there even is any true presence of the ROC in diplomatic or economic terms in mainland China today. (And such information were somehow added later, would that be big problem?)
I really do believe the current title is confusing. Most articles in Wikipedia about states with (yyyy–YYYY) in their title refer to states that no longer exist (e.g. Hungarian Republic (1919–20) or Hellenic State (1941–1944), as do articles about people or coroporations (e.g. Air Belgium (1979–2000)). (To be clear, the Republic of China still exists, and its continued existence after 1949 was recognised not only by itself, but also for multiple decades by the UN, the United States (and indeed most non-communist countries).) RitKill (talk) 08:00, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
The Republic of China as China doesn't exist anymore. It has been succeeded by the Republic of China as Taiwan. Two different countries, the later one simply inherited the government of the earlier one. --Khajidha (talk) 14:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
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