Talk:Republic of China (disambiguation)

Requested move (2012): Republic of China (disambiguation) → Republic of China

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved: no consensus after a month Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

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Republic of China (disambiguation) → Republic of China – Republic of China is currently a redirect to Taiwan. This certainly violates the "principle of least surprise." Googling "Republic of China" -wikipedia suggests that readers using this lemma are quite likely to be looking for the People's Republic of China. All we can do for those readers is put up a "Not to be confused" hat note. There is no reason to think that readers are more likely to be looking for Taiwan than for Republic of China (1912-1949). It may be common to use ROC to mean "Taiwan", but this meaning generally has to be explained as it is unnatural. For example, the top Google result is actually for Republic of China (Taiwan). Kauffner (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

• Neutral Offical titles may sometimes indeed be surprising, especially if they differ from day-to-day language. Mootros (talk) 13:39, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support. In common usage, there is no primary topic for "Republic of China" - taking anyone who searches for this term to the dab page is an excellent way to inform them of the other common usage. Taking them to either common use violates the principle of least surprise probably about half the time. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

• What you suggest to be done would be best served by an overview article, per WP:CONCEPTDAB--Jiang (talk) 19:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• No. What I suggest is moving Republic of China (disambiguation) to Republic of China. See my comments a couple below. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support - Many links to Republic of China actually refer to Republic of China (1912-1949). Better to link to a dab page than to the wrong article. --Zanhe (talk) 18:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Not really. The majority of links refer to Taiwan. Edits like these, where people find a need to reference the Republic of China as a continuous entity, and split a phrase into two links, is strong evidence that WP:CONCEPTDAB applies.--Jiang (talk) 19:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CONCEPTDAB. The recent move decision has yet to be fully implemented. Please join the discussion at Talk:Republic of China on drafting the replacement article, as directed by the move proposal.--Jiang (talk) 05:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose – this is a CONCEPTDAB situation. The redirect is the result of a recent lengthy move discussion that planned an article on the government under this name; the obvious thing is to proceed with that plan. Besides, the above Google search doesn't tell us what people typing "Republic of China" are really after. (If it really is common to use ROC to mean "Taiwan", that would favour WP:COMMONNAME.) Kanguole 08:09, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
  • No, "Republic of China" is not a single broad concept - it has two main distinct uses, and arguably a couple of minor ones, all listed at Republic of China (disambiguation). --Born2cycle (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• The two broad concepts are (1) The Republic of China existed from 1912 to 1949, whence it was succeeded by the People's Republic of China and (2) The Republic of China has existed continuously from 1912 to the present, having never been fully supplanted by the People's Republic of China. WP:DUE and WP:CONTENTFORK demands that a broad overview article take both these positions into account. The usages are not mutually exclusive, nor are they distinct. No party is claiming that the Republic of China has existed only from 1949 to the present. (By the way, the "minor ones" are not uses at all, but point to articles of specific government regimes, rather than the state as a whole.) --Jiang (talk) 08:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Currentday usage of the term universally refers to the state alternatively known as 'Taiwan'. It would therefore seem counterintuitive to make this article into a dab page. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 11:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I don't know what category of "currentday usage" you might be referring to. The international media very rarely refers to Taiwan as the ROC. For a historian, the ROC is the 1912-1949 era of Chinese history, as you can see on the Template:History_of_China or in the Dictionary of Chinese History. What about all the readers who confuse the ROC with the PRC? There can be a hat note to deal with this at "Taiwan". But that article is already quite crowded with hat notes. The PRC/ROC issue confuses a lot of people, and that is reason enough to warrant a page of the kind that is proposed here. Kauffner (talk) 12:50, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• You haven't proven "what do people usually mean when they refer to the Republic of China" and you haven't explained why WP:CONCEPTDAB doesn't apply. That Taiwan is the common name of the Republic of China is logically irrelevant here. Because the topic may be confusing is the very reason we should have an article and not a disambiguation page here. Here's a Google Book search for "Republic of China". Of the first 20 results, 18 refer to Taiwan, 1 refers to the PRC, and 1 refers to pre-1949 China. When historians refer to the 1912-1949 period of Chinese history, they don't need to expand "China" to "Republic of China" to distinguish it from the "People's Republic of China", and the historical period is more commonly known as "Republican China" or "the Republican period" (minguo shiqi). But this is besides the point as WP:CONCEPTDAB is relevant here - we are not dealing with mutually exclusive entities, but merely different conceptions of the scope of an entity.--Jiang (talk) 19:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• GBooks gives you books with the phrase "Republic of China" in the title. The book that comes up first is The Business Republic of China. Otherwise, the results are for antique official publications, ROC yearbooks from the 1970s and so forth. Check out the associated terms on Insights. The readers searching for "republic of china" are also searching for "embassy of China", "china embassy", and "government of china". In fact, it looks like most are searching for information about the mainland. Kauffner (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
• The No. 1 associated term for "Republic of China" is "Republic of Taiwan". The only way I see to explain this is to assume that a very high level of cluelessness exists on this issue: "The 'Republic of China' is Taiwan?? You're sure it's not the 'Republic of Taiwan'? Just a minute. Let me google this one up." Don't laugh. I've met these people. They exist. Kauffner (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• These results show that they fail to answer the question "what do people usually mean when they refer to the Republic of China". The disambiguation page points to Taiwan and Republic of China (1912-1949) as the two articles, not People's Republic of China or Republic of Taiwan. To justify its existence, you would need to show that WP:CONCEPTDAB does not apply, in that all mentions of Republic of China will point squarely at one or the other. As the link in response to Zanhe above shows, this is not the case.--Jiang (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• Did you look at the top of the page? It says, Not to be confused with People's Republic of China. Someone who has never heard the country called anything other than "Taiwan" will assume that its long-form name must be "Republic of Taiwan". So this phrase need not be associated with any ideology or faction. Kauffner (talk) 01:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

• That's a hatnote, not part of the disambiguation choices. Since Republic of China now redirects to Taiwan, that hatnote belongs there. It will still reside at the top of a future Republic of China (non redirect) article. To reiterate, I am not defending the redirect, but merely noting that an article, not a disambiguation page, belongs at the location Republic of China per WP:CONCEPTDAB. Of course, once the article is written, there would be no need for Republic of China (disambiguation).--Jiang (talk) 01:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support Per Kauffner. 梁棚元 (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
• Procedural note Until ~30mins ago, notification of this discussion does not seem to have been posted to either Talk:Republic of China or Talk:Taiwan, articles that are strongly related and would be affected by this move. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: There are three or four things calling (or called) themselves the ROC, that aren't the same thing. First thing that comes to mind is Uncle Wang's Japanese puppet state. Current day usage however refers to the government currently ruling Taiwan. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:50, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Historians can use "Republic of China" or "Republican China" to refer to the 1912-1949 era and not worry that readers will confuse it with the Taiwanese state.[1] But a writer who uses ROC to mean Taiwan will add a parenthetical "Taiwan" or otherwise disambiguate to make clear that he not referring to a state on the mainland.[2] Kauffner (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Historians can be sure that readers are not stupid enough to not realise that the book is describing events that occurred (for example) from 1939 to 1945 for a book specifically dealing with World War II, and not in 2012. Similarly, journalists of the The China Post make it clear enough what they mean when they mention things like "elections in the Republic of China", and are sure that their readers are not stupid enough to not realise that in 2012, the ROC does not have airbases in Chungking, artillery batteries along the Yellow River, and trenches in Hunan Province. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per Benlisquare. ROC should remain a redirect with hatnote at the target page. Jeremy (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support. When we talk about ROC we usually refer to China from 1912 to 1949, but not Taiwan. But the Taiwanese don't think so. Sky6t (talk) 13:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• I believe the truth is likely the opposite of what you've asserted. The need to write out the name in full ("Republic of China") or use an acronym ("ROC") in the first place, as opposed to calling it just "China", was because of the need to distinguish the entity from the People's Republic of China. Searching for "ROC" yields results almost entirely referring to Taiwan.--Jiang (talk) 14:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
• Well I didn't say quite clearly, but at least in Chinese context it is... Sky6t (talk) 15:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• ...Chinese language usage is not relevant when it comes to the English Wikipedia.--Jiang (talk) 02:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support "Republic of China" is very rarely used for the present day state on Taiwan and the 1912-1949 state is at last as likely to be used, whilst the PRC is also often confused with it. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Not true. Just Google Search "Republic of China". It would be one thing for the results to be evenly divided, but here, the results are almost completely referring to the Republic of China as it exists after 1949. As I noted above, between 1912-1949, there was no competing Chinese state, so there was no need to write out "Republic of China" out in full, as opposed to just "China." Also, even if the results were opposite of what the search suggests, we would still need to demonstrate that the two options are mutually exclusive ideas for WP:CONCEPTDAB not to apply.--Jiang (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, per principle of least surprise (ironically). I think that most people searching for "Republic of China" are looking for Taiwan; rather than China, for which they would most likely enter "China". I certainly think that those looking for the historical Republic of China will be prepared to find Taiwan instead, and are appropriately served by the dab hatnote there. ENeville (talk) 22:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I assume that anyone who knows that the ROC is Taiwan, and who is looking for information about Taiwan, will just type "Taiwan". Kauffner (talk) 23:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Neither Taiwan nor Republic of China (1912-1949) is the primary topic so a DAB page is in order. —  AjaxSmack  00:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • This conclusion is a result of the failure to consider sufficient choices in determining WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The Taiwan article states that the Republic of China has existed as a political entity from 1912 to the present; the result of the recent move is that the article is about "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China" instead of just "Taiwan". As a result, the conception of the Republic of China contained in the Taiwan article is not exclusive of the conception of the Republic of China contained in the Republic of China (1912-1949) article. Instead, it is a broader definition with overlap, and as such WP:CONCEPTDAB clearly applies. The logic you use assumes that the Republic of China existing in mainland China had no historical link with the Republic of China existing in Taiwan (the only thing they shared was a common name). This is false.--Jiang (talk) 01:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
    • I never assumed a lack of historical connexion but that can be dealt with in the two current articles. A third article is redundant and a content fork. A discussion of the terminological issues related to the name is in order but such a discussion is not the primary meaning of "Republic of China". —  AjaxSmack  02:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
      • It is Republic of China (1912-1949) that is acting as the content fork because it is more limited in scope than the totality of all competing and related definitions of the same topics that should be handled under the same topic per WP:DUE. How do we reconcile the dab page with WP:CONCEPTDAB? IMO, it would be a clear violation. As clear evidence, we wouldn't know how to deal with the first sentence of China and the United Nations.--Jiang (talk) 03:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. For people who aren't familiar, they'll type "China" to look for the PRC and "Taiwan" to look for the ROC. For those who are familiar, they expect to read about the ROC by typing "Republic of China" or "Taiwan". The primary topic for "Republic of China" is the ROC. Republic of China (1912-1949) is a fork and should be killed as soon as possible. The only other "Republic of China" is Wang Ching-Wei's puppet state. 218.250.159.216 (talk) 20:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • So the 1912-1949 period is not worthy of its own era article? We have divided up Chinese history as Yuan, Ming, Qing and so forth on Template:Chinese history and elsewhere, each with its own "former country" article. To send readers interested in this era to an article entitled "Taiwan" would be pretty goofy. To send them to an article that is entitled "Republic of China", but which opened something like, "The Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan," would be only slightly less goofy. To me, the PRC vs. ROC stuff is Internet Chinglish, China as a land of rival TLAs. I suspect that for the vast majority of English-speakers, there is one country named "China", and it's the place with pandas, a Great Wall, and martial arts movies. If you google "Republic of China" -wikipedia, most results refer to the mainland. The results that refer to Taiwan are generally partial title matches for Republic of China (Taiwan), a term used on the Taiwanese government websites. Kauffner (talk) 00:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
    • The historical countries template is already applied to Beiyang Government and Nationalist Government. Having a third countries template cover both of those would be redundant. I mean, what is to stop you from having a fourth countries template cover 1912-present? Or another countries template covering 221BC to 1912 entitled "Imperial China"? Your Google Search is flawed by operation of the Google algorithm, which fails to distinguish partial titles from full titles. For example, if you search "Republic of Korea", nearly half of the results will refer to the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea." Google can't tell whether you want to search for "Republic of Korea" or the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" when you just type in "Republic of Korea" or "Korea," so no conclusion should be made from the search you linked.--Jiang (talk) 02:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Try googling "Republic of China" -"Republic of China (Taiwan)" or look at Insights. Almost nothing about Taiwan shows up. So this odd partial title match is only high-traffic context in which the ROC is understood to mean Taiwan. You want put Beiyang on the history template? I've never seen anyone do a dynasty chart that way. Kauffner (talk) 03:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Again, your search results are completely unhelpful as they are blinded by the algorithm which cannot distinguish the partial and full phrases. Try instead Googling "Republic of China" -"People's Republic of China" and asking whether the results for "Republic of China" refer to pre-1949 or post-1949. All but one refer to post-1949, suggesting that the redirect is not all that misplaced.
        • Beiyang already has a former countries infobox. What's wrong? History of the Republic of China belongs in the navigation box, just as History of the People's Republic of China does. Beiyang Government and Nationalist Government should be daughter articles of History of the Republic of China. --Jiang (talk) 03:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't agree that the current situation 'violates the 'principle of least surprise', which in any case is not and has never been a policy.
  Google hits while helpful/interesting, are always an inexact metric. More so in this case where pages discussed were moved so recently—having been searchengine indexed at their previous names for a long time. Additionally, searchengine usefulness is limited here due to their treatment of partial vs full phrases affecting inclusion/exclusion of results.
  • The recent move of the article then at Republic of China to Taiwan followed extensive policy-based discussion and its analysis by three administrators. Chiefly, it determined the proper name to be: the most common name in reliable, 3rd-party English sources (i.e Taiwan) and that this may even take precedence over the official name (i.e Republic of China).
  • If someone is looking for "China", they will type in China and arrive at the China article. Or, they will know of the "PRC" and type that, and again will arrive at our China article. I do not accept or agree that readers will have heard Republic of China without 'People's' plus assume it refers to China.
  • If they have heard the precise term "Republic of China" at all, it would be in the context of it being the official name of the country Taiwan, as is specified in sources like the OED. Else, they'll simply have heard of a place called China and a place called Taiwan.
  • Other arguments here have suggested there is no in common usage primary topic for "Republic of China". Really this is an argument for it being instead an official name thus its present redirection to its common name counterpart Taiwan, per Article_titles#Non-neutral_but_common_names & Article_titles#Common_names. Personally, I've mild preference for Republic of China to remain a redirect rather than its eventual articleification but regardless ...
  • WP:PRIMARYUSAGE somewhat applies in that Republic of China when it is used, it is normally to refer to Taiwan using the official name. Ultimately WP:CONCEPTDAB/WP:TWODABS applies. The items on the dab page coincide to a degree yet are distinct with "Republic of China"'s greatest usage/significance being as an official name for Taiwan. --92.6.211.228 (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• The most common reason a reader might type in the phrase "Republic of China" is because they are looking for information about the Chinese government. They are either misremembering the official "People's Republic of China" moniker, or they assume that every country has a long-form name in the style Republic of Foo. Kauffner (talk) 02:00, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• What evidence is there to suggest this? Even if true, that is what a hatnote is for. This would not be a valid argument for a disambiguation page. Our disambiguation policy does not support the creation of a disambiguation page just because the title of a page may be similar to another page. The title of the page has to refer to two or more separate topics that both could validly reside under that name - "People's Republic of China" cannot reside at "Republic of China".--Jiang (talk) 02:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
• It doesn't seem likely that people assume every country is also known as Republic of Foo or Kingdom of Foo. The People's Rep. of China is often referred to as PRC. If you've heard one you've heard the other. PRC is itself memorable because it's only 3 letters plus is an aide memoire to the expanded form. If people don't remember "People's Rep. of China"/"PRC" rather than forgetting individual words they'll have forgotten it completely and so just type "China". --92.6.211.228 (talk) 13:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• Try it youself if you don't believe me. Googling "Republic of China" -wikipedia brings up the PRC government Web portal, various embassies, and the commerce ministry. Five of the ten results on first page are for the PRC, four are for Taiwan. Kauffner (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm going to repeat myself as you are repeating yourself. That Google search doesn't prove anything as the Google algorithm cannot distinguish user intent in inserting a partial phrase that could be a full phrase with different meaning. Googling "Republic of Korea" -wikipedia shows results for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Should we turn Republic of Korea from a redirect into a disambiguation page? Same logic here, but People's Republic of China isn't even one of the disambiguation choices!--Jiang (talk) 23:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't think the request's claim " Googling "Republic of China" -wikipedia suggests that readers using this lemma are quite likely to be looking for the People's Republic of China." is wholly accurate. It suggests that readers using the lemma "People's Republic of China" are looking for the PROC. Eliminating both the PROC and ROC(T) variations indicates that Taiwan is likely intended from just "Republic of China"."Republic+of+China"+-wikipedia+-"people%27s+republic+of+china"+-"republic+of+china+taiwan" -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• So you subtracted PRC from the search, and PRC-related pages dropped out of the results. What did you expect? The historians' usage of ROC as an era name is the one you'll find in academic references, so it is notable whether people are googling for it or not. I going have to annoy Jiang one more time and repeat another point I made earlier: None of the associated search terms listed on Google Insights suggest that readers who googling "Republic of China" are looking for information about Taiwan. The No. 1 associated term is "chinese republic", which suggests an interest in either the contemporary Chinese government or in the historical era. The No. 2 term is "china embassy", and No. 3 is "china government". I found this page amusing. It suggests that the fashion industry has no clue that the phrase "Republic of China" refers to anything other than a republic located in China. Kauffner (talk) 11:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• I still don't understand how Google proves your point. How do the associated terms on Google Insights reveal user intent? What is needed to justify a dab page here: Republic of China on Taiwan and Republic of China on mainland are mutually exclusive entities for WP:CONCEPTDAB not to apply. That the Republic of China is confused with the People's Republic of China is justification for a hatnote, not a disambiguation page. Additionally, you would have to prove that usage "Republic of China" between the disambiguation choices. People's Republic of China is not a disambiguation choice.--Jiang (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment -- ultimately this will probably be appropriate, but only when we are SURE that all Taiwan articles have been moved away from RoC. I suspect that this measn that the change should not be implemented fopr at least a month; possibly three months. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 23 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved because consensus exists that Taiwan is the primary topic of ROC. (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 08:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

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Republic of China (disambiguation) → Republic of China – The previous discussion was 10 years ago, I guess that the consensus has appeared since then. There is no primary topic for "Republic of China", neither Taiwan nor Republic of China (1912-1949). BlackBony (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 22:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
• oppose. The country is commonly Taiwan but formally Republic of China, a name which is used in some contexts due to its odd political circumstance. When someone says or writes "Republic of China" they are overwhelmingly referring to Taiwan. It's used far less to refer to the period before 1949 which is normally called "China", or "Warlord China", "Nationalist China" when referring to particular aspects of it. I see no evidence anything's changed. If anything pre-1949 China is a further decade in the past so even more remote from current thinking.86.155.58.100 (talk) 05:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Taiwan currently exists. France won't take you to an article on the Third Republic, Canada is about the independent country, not the colony; Republic of China likewise should be about the country that currently exists. Red Slash 17:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose – Republic of China absolutely refers to the current incarnation of the country (commonly known as Taiwan). Having it at a disambiguation page is not helpful at all. This is why we have hatnotes. cookie monster 755 02:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Taiwan is the primary topic. O.N.R. ^(talk) 03:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support This clearly refers to two separate concepts that are often confused together (and stems out of the mess we had with the articles in the first decade of Wikipedia) and having the disambiguation page will make it clearer. Taiwan is increasingly using "Republic of China" less and less in how it presents to the wider world - e.g. passport covers - and searches for the term bring up both concepts so neither is unambiguously the use. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Usage of the term still appears overwhelmingly to refer to the current subject and primary topic.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.