Talk:Reservoirs of Wales

This page stub can be easily expanded and improved upon - please help! diolch / thanks Geopersona (talk) 07:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Note that this is not intended to be a 'list article' - there is an increasingly comprehensive list at List of lakes of Wales which includes natural waterbodies, artificial reservoirs and those natural waterbodies which have been altered so as to form a reservoir function. diolch / thanks Geopersona (talk) 07:44, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone know if there is a website that allows you to discover which communities are supplied from which reservoirs? Geopersona (talk) 08:47, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

This always used to be highly classified information as the UK government believed that identifying water supply sources and even the location of water treatment works might encourage or facilitate acts of terror. I have a feeling that those security concerns were quietly dropped after privatisation but I doubt whether any water company is rushing to produce such lists. In any case it is never quite as simple as it seem. Many locations can be provided with water from different sources depending on availability. South-east Anglesey can, for example, be supplied with ether Cwellyn water or Cefni water or a mixture. Linking water supplies provides increased water security and cost flexibility but it does make identifying the water supply source for a community increasingly difficult.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   09:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Velella - indeed such concerns had crossed my mind so interesting that you can confirm that. Ah well, we know where the major Vyrnwy and Elan valley water supplies go, if not many more minor ones. thanks Geopersona (talk) 14:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Reservoirs of Wales (move) Water supply of Wales

Recently expanded sections of the page and now feel that Water supply of Wales is a more appropriate title for the scope of the article. Titus Gold (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Does every article about Wales have to be a nationalistic battleground? Your expansion has added the section Exporting to England - a new section that is itself not neutral. Rain that falls in Wales supplies both English and Welsh customers, and as the UK has an integrated internal market (except to Northern Ireland), the water is not exported anywhere, it is merely supplied. The new proposed title of "Water supply of Wales" fuels this nationalistic interpretation of the resource. Moreover the water supply of Wales is not entirely from reservoir resources. Aquifers supply a very large part of it, and water is also extracted from rivers in some cases, so the new title does not match what this article is about - i,e, the reservoirs of Wales. Nevertheless, thank you for starting the discussion first. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:46, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - there is no justification for such a move. Many reservoirs in Wales are not used for water supply.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   08:57, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - That title would conflict with Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales, it must be considered whether the content recently added here should be there, or that article split (per a discussion at its talk). (Also "in" seems more common). DankJae 12:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
  • However, "Reservoirs of" articles are rare, and not fully sure of the aimed scope of this article, is managing reservoirs sufficiently different that it has to be separate from a generalised water-related management Wales article? Usually there would/should be a general water-related article, with reservoirs split off that article if needed. (discuss first) "Reservoirs of" articles are usually list articles or redirects to list articles. If this article is being expanded with a lot of management, and such management also applies to other water features, a generalisation into a water article could be called, however whether Wales should be split from England and Wales in existing water articles is a discussion in and of itself, and must be discussed where appropriate beforehand. Diolch DankJae 12:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

    Support (or similar change) - Happy to change the word "export" to "supply". Things have changed since devolution in 2006 with further Water policy devolution in 2018 and Water policies are generally devolved to Wales. I agree that aquifers and rivers are significant but not major supplies of water.

    Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales is about supply before devolution and I think this should be changed to "History of water supply in England and Wales". The more recent additions to that page by myself follow the responsibility split to Wales and England separately.

    I don't think reservoirs and water supply are different enough to justify separate pages. What is clear is that there is a need for change here. Open to listen to other options. Titus Gold (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

@Geopersona: (page creator), what is the aimed scope of this article? There isn't a precedent, no other articles to really compare to, title wise. DankJae 05:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree it has no precedent. This is (or was, until some recent changes) a list article. There are a number of lists of reservoirs. E.g. List of reservoirs in Andalusia. A list article does not need to have "List of" in the title. However, as a list article, I wonder whether some of the new material recently added would be better placed elsewhere (if, indeed, it wasn't just copy/pasted from elsewhere in the first place). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:26, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy, No the earliest version of the page is only text no list. The page was clearly created to be more than a list at the start. So the goal was not to be a list which makes it different to other “Reservoirs of/in” which are (redirects) for purely a list of reservoirs. The list itself is a recent addition here. DankJae 09:41, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Let's see how the creator responds. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Saw this just now - thanks for the 'ping', DankJae. Part of the reason I began the page can be gleaned by reading Talk:List_of_lakes_of_Wales#Addition of 'by supply' section Geopersona (talk) 09:05, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Geopersona, thanks for pointing to that. I'm guessing this page is to accommodate non-list additions there over the use of reservoirs to supply English people, but no wider plan. As you did admit, there is no List of reservoirs in Wales article, and created this one, I do raise the possibility, that as "Reservoirs of/in" articles are rare and usually are as Hydrology of, Water in, Water resources in, Water supply and sanitiation in, etc articles, that this becomes one of those? Likely Water resources. Although this is only my opinion. Diolch! DankJae 13:21, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support and restructure for Water resources in Wales instead, Oppose as proposed, I believe this article would be better generalised into this title, reservoir articles (rather than lists) are uncommon and management partly overlaps with other water supplies which could be added, ofc it can be altered in the future if Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales is split, or that this discussion should be paused until that one is concluded, no rush. Diolch! DankJae 13:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC) Withdraw. Edit: DankJae 02:46, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - Support procedural pause on this discussion pending outcome of proposed move of Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales.
• Propose that this article is reverted to its state prior to the addition of the table. As several editors have noted we have list articles as at List of lakes of Wales and List of reservoirs in England and Wales by volume . Maintaining those lists in synchrony is difficult enough without yet another list of reservoirs. The original remit of this article was to provide a description of the reason for the construction of the many reservoirs in Wales (topography, metrology, industrialisation etc.), and their uses. I propose that the article is reverted to this version.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   14:38, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with reversion to 3 February version. The table is copy-pasted from List of reservoirs in England and Wales by volume and then with added images. The value added by images is debatable as they may not be compliant with MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE, which says, Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. The images do relate to the topic context, but they are primarily decorative. Are they aiding understanding? Highly debatable. In any case, the list is available elsewhere, and copy-pasting information from one article to another is poor practice, and especially when it changes the target article's scope, as happened here. Coming to this article, I misunderstood this article to be a list article, because it had a copy-paste from a list article. I think that is prima-facie evidence that the addition of the table has damaged this article's purpose to the point we had to ask the page creator for guidance! So yes, let's put it back the way it was. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Velella is right in terms of the original remit, though of course all WP pages evolve to some degree as multiple editors make their contributions. I've no strong views beyond not wishing useful material to be discarded. Some readers will discover the page whilst looking for the landscape features (my own prime interest, tying in each one's 'back-story' as it were) whist others will be enquiring as to how water reaches the taps or how and where it turns turbines etc, etc diolch Geopersona (talk) 15:19, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

  That proposed revert is to a far inferior and uncited version of the article. Dreadful suggestion I'm afraid. Titus Gold (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

That is your opinion. Decisions about content are not reliant on the quality of current sourcing. There is always a need to improve sourcing and that could have been done with the original structure had you so wished. This is a discussion about content and scope. If the title was to be moved as suggested then that would also encompass all the riverine and ground-water abstractions in Wales from the Halkyn Tunnel extraction , Nant Caredig, Llechryd, Teifi Pools, Llygad Llwchwr, Schwyll etc. etc. All of this can be sourced, although with some difficulty in some cases because of the lack of good sources about abstraction licences. In addition to these water supply abstractions, there are very many for irrigation schemes and for small hydro schemes. I am not convinced that this is either desirable or helpful.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   11:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with @DankJae 's suggestion of Water resources in Wales as it more appropriately covers the scope of the article. Titus Gold (talk) 16:13, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Please also see Talk:Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales#Requested move 26 March 2023 as part of the original rationale of that move related to this page. Particularly: Reservoirs in Wales should also move to "Water supply in Wales" which would cover all water supply in Wales since the devolution of water. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment (I have voted above) - Water supply and sanitation in Wales has since been split off regardless, so I assume this requested move is voided? If this is the case, would support a reversion of this article. DankJae 02:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  Comment - Water supply and sanitation in Wales has now been made a redirect. I have moved info for Wales and England's separate management to the Water supply and sanitation in England and Wales page. I have also moved the reservoir table for the largest raised capacity reservoirs in Wales to List of reservoirs in Wales by raised capacity.

  This page's scope could be focused on water resources in Wales including reservoirs. Titus Gold (talk) 02:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Titus Gold, there is no consensus for that list, a separate Wales volume article did NOT gain support at Talk:List of reservoirs in the United Kingdom, the new name is not hiding the fact that it is essentially the same article as you proposed then. This is getting disruptive. DankJae 02:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

  Yes I have made the article and mentioned so earlier but it it not a split, so the discussion on Talk:List of reservoirs in the United Kingdom is not relevant in the same way. Happy to have a discussion if this is wanted. Titus Gold (talk) 02:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

  It is still related, being patient is much more helpful, why in the rush? DankJae 03:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)