Talk:Rheinpfalz

terminology

rheinpfalz was never an official name for either any of the former states, the districts of bavaria or rhineland-palatinate or for the region. in that respect, the german page for rheinpfalz also needs correction.

in documents, rheinpfalz was sometimes alternatively used for unterpfalz (lower palatinate) as a differentiation from the Upper Palatinate. therefore, quite correctly, the term does not appear e. g. in the article on the Electoral Palatinate but it can be mentioned here, as it is on rhenish palatinate.

yet, rheinpfalz is a term still very much in use, much more than it was historically. therefore it is not an "old" name.Sundar1 (talk) 08:46, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Whether something is or was an official name is not always relevant. English Wikipedia uses WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. --Bermicourt (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

that does not explain why you reject my edits. you need to point out mistakes.Sundar1 (talk) 07:32, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

As a general rule, I translate these articles from German Wikipedia. For proper names, I research whether there is a common English name e.g. Rhenish Palatinate. This is usually true for historical names; we don't tend to translate modern Kreise names. I also try to translate administrative or territorial terms in a way that best conveys the sense in English, taking account of any conventions. So modern Kreise are called "districts" by the EU and "counties" by the British Embassy in Berlin and other British organisations. Either conveys the right sense, although in Britain a district is smaller than a county. Historically, Kreise were generally called "circles" and seem to have been much bigger in size. The Palatinate, when it belonged to Bavaria, was an exclave territory, but "province" also conveys the right sense of a large territory that is somewhat remote from the centre of power. I know that Prussia divided its kingdom into Provinzen too. So I try to follow a logic based on English sources and good translation practice. If, however, German Wikipedia is wrong in the first place, then those errors are likely to come across because I can't independently verify everything. If you think that's the case, then on both Wikipedias you can recommend changes and point to the sources that back them up. If they are not controversial, of course, you can make the changes and just insert the references, but the changes you have been making are contentious and should be discussed first. I hope that helps. Gruß, --Bermicourt (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As a general rule, I translate these articles from German Wikipedia. For proper names, I research whether there is a common English name e.g. Rhenish Palatinate. This is usually true for historical names; we don't tend to translate modern Kreise names.

of course, if you translate from other wikipedias, as i also often do, you run the risk of copying mistakes. as i said, "rheinpfalz" is indeed a popular term, yet the official name was always only "pfalz", be it as a district of bavaria or of rheinland-pfalz and there's nothing wrong in pointing that out. “kreis pfalz” is to be translated “district of pfalz” and “kreis” is not part of the name but merely a discription of what pfalz is, just like you say “city of manchester” – “city” is not part of the name. on the other hand, “pfalzkreis” (if the term existed) would be translated as “pfalz district” and in this case “kreis” is part of the name. i understand that, unlike “modern” kreis names, you see a tendency to translate what you consider “non-modern” kreis names. can you give examples of this? i cannot imagine how that could be followed through, because in the beginning there were so many different names for districts in german. would you want to translate each one differently, even if they were all districts? the many different names can be explained: the territorial reforms in the early 1800s were new and there was no terminology for the new regierungsbezirke at hand. bavaria opted for “kreis”, as did württemberg, hessen had “provinz”, prussia chose “regierungsbezirk” and there were various other names such as “landeskommissärbezirk”, “kreishauptmannschaft” or “landdrostei“. the brits, watching all this reorganisation from afar, also had no established english terms for the new units and the next best thing was “circle” for bavaria. how would the last two names be translated? i’m wiling to bet there are non. but already from the beginning, the term (regierungs-)bezirk was commonly used (also in documents) because it was clear that the purpose of all the units was the same. and it was eventually enforced as official term in all of germany.

I also try to translate administrative or territorial terms in a way that best conveys the sense in English, taking account of any conventions. So modern Kreise are called "districts" by the EU and "counties" by the British Embassy in Berlin and other British organisations. Either conveys the right sense, although in Britain a district is smaller than a county.

conveying sense (purpose) is important, i agree. that’s the very reason for translating rheinkreis with district, especially taking conventions into account. what’s more conventional than “district”? who on earth has any idea what a circle is supposed to be?

i do not think it’s necessary to differ between “historical” and “modern” terms when deciding to translate or not. if there is a conventional translation, then translate – it’s as simple as that. if there is no conventional translation, than use the original terms. regardless of that, i do not agree with the implication, that “kreis” in rheinkreis is not a modern term for the following reason:

the reorganization of bavaria in the early 1800s was an extraordinary feat and revolutionary from the administrative standpoint. bavaria, prussia and the other german states reorganized their territories around the same time or soon after. it was in these years in which the modern german territorial administration was shaped and in which the term “kreis” and “bezirk” became used for territorial units, most of which existing to this very day. in every first lesson on present day german administration these achievements are glorified. thus, any name with kreis is a modern name and it’s absurd to classify it as historical.

i also see no logic in starting out with circle and then switching some decades later to district. how do you explain this change and when exactly is it supposed to have taken place? is it the name change from rheinkreis to palatinate? if so, for what reason?

i would say that british “county and district” is equivalent to german “bezirk (former bavarian kreis) and kreis” because of comparable sizes as well as adminitrative levels.

Historically, Kreise were generally called "circles" and seem to have been much bigger in size. The Palatinate, when it belonged to Bavaria, was an exclave territory, but "province" also conveys the right sense of a large territory that is somewhat remote from the centre of power. I know that Prussia divided its kingdom into Provinzen too.

the only “historical” kreise i know of were the “reichskreise” of the empire. in fact, that’s what came to mind when i first read “circle of (the) rhein”. these imperial circles were indeed much larger but they had an entirely different purpose and i cannot imagine this is what you are talking about.

modern-day kreise and bezirke created in the early 1800s (just like modern-day departements in france created after the revolution) are all smaller than the imperial circles, similar in size to their british equivalents and they established the 2. and 3. administrative levels we still have today. therefore, they are "modern". on the 2. level they had all sorts of names in german but all of which translate with "district". indeed, in antiquated books i've seen repeated translations of kreis into circle, regardless if it was the imperial circle, a 2. level bezirk or a 3. level district. i do not know which circles you have in mind which seem to have been much bigger (than what?). the palatinate, b. t. w., happened to be the smallest of all bavarian districts.

you point to the detached and distant location across the rhine and that “province” conveys remoteness and larger size. the rheinkeis was comparable in size to any other district or even smaller than the other bavrian ones and the distance obviously had no influence an the bavarian naming policy: it was designated a kreis just like all the others.

the case of prussia is different and the english translation of province for the prussian provinz is correct because it was an adminitrative unit above the bezirk and there is no suitable equivalent.

So I try to follow a logic based on English sources and good translation practice. If, however, German Wikipedia is wrong in the first place, then those errors are likely to come across because I can't independently verify everything. If you think that's the case, then on both Wikipedias you can recommend changes and point to the sources that back them up. If they are not controversial, of course, you can make the changes and just insert the references, but the changes you have been making are contentious and should be discussed first.

i’m afraid, this logic escaped me so far and in my view ignores other important aspects. apart from the points i already listed, consistency is a very important factor when using certain terms. this is one of my the reasons for getting into this discussion .

it cannot be a precondition for changes on english wikipedia that i first check and correct the german one.

battle of ludwigshafen: as to oppenheim on rhine (north of worms), it is known historically for an often used ford or crossing point of the rhine but, as you can easily check for yourself, there is and was no border of the (rhein-)pfalz. this was also wrong in german wikipedia and cannot be an excuse to undo my edit. b.t.w., i stated the reason for my edit and thus complied with wikipedia etiquette.

the source used to justify the use of circle is very old (1832) and uses terminology that is antiquated to say the least. many names are written in a french manner and are sometimes hardly recognizable. it generally translates the term “kreis” as “circle”, regardless if it was 2. or 3. level (bezirk or a landkreis). the 6 districts of hannover (“landdrostei“) are translated as “government”. then again, the “bezirke” of prussia are also translated as “governments” and the “landkreise” as “circles”. for saxony it again uses different terms.

this article still needs to be changed in this fashion:

Rheinpfalz may refer to:

• a popular but unofficial name for the Palatinate (Pfalz), Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
• an unofficial name for the former district Pfalz (Palatinate) of Rheinland-Palatinate, Germany, which covered the same area as the modern-day region
• one of several unofficial names for the former district Pfalz of the Kingdom of Bavaria from 1835 until 1946 which roughly covered the same area as the modern-day region. Another name was Bavarian Palatinate (Bayerische Pfalz)
• a name sometimes alternatively used in documents for the Electoral Palatinate instead of "Lower Palatinate" to differentiate it from the Upper Palatinate
• the former name of the Palatinate wine region, Germany. good day Sundar1 (talk) 14:14, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

This first bullet would be okay if we changed it slightly to: "Rheinpfalz, popular native name for the Pfalz or Palatinate region of Germany". I'm taking it on trust that the Germans still use this term today :) The final bullet is true if we add "German", but we also need to keep that the English name was Rhine Palatinate (according to the article). The other changes are problematic for several reasons:

• They don't mention the English name, Rhenish Palatinate
• "Unofficial" is redundant because this is a dab page and because it's the WP:COMMONNAME in WP:USEENGLISH
• They don't refer to Circle of the Rhine which is a relevant article

I'll action your first and final bullets in the spirit of cooperation. I hope that helps. Bermicourt (talk) 10:07, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

using "native" instead of "unofficial" (when we already have "popular") is less informative. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH, as most wikipedia rules, are not written in stone - i'd like to point to the term "general". besides, "native" in this case is abiguous: in my view it refers to palatine only but the term is used in all of germany. as you can clearly see, there are lots of misconceptions about the use of rheinpfalz, also for many germans, and the addition of this word would provide more clarity in a very simple way.

there is no english article on the rheinland-pfalz district of "pfalz". therefore i suggest to merge the 2. with the first bullet.

the term "pfalz" or combinations with it was not used for or reduced to the left bank of the rhine before the bavarians "re-invented" it as a political entity in 1837. i doubt the english used rhenish-palatinate before the germans used pfalz and it cannot have been used for the rheinkreis other than to describe where it is. therefore, rheinpfalz was not another name for rheinkreis.

what's wrong with the 4. bullet? there are plenty of german and english sources in which rheinpfalz/rhenish palatinate is used for the electoral palatinate and i found some german sources in which the term was used for the area (both sides of the rhine) even after the electorate had been dissolved.

i don't see, when it comes to wine, why "rhenish" is replaced by "rhine". after all, there is the german term "rheinisch" for which rhenish would be the proper translation. sigh. if you think that has to be in, go ahead.

i'm adding another meaning i should have not forgotten since i did some planning for it myself: the planning region of the rheinpfalz.

new suggestion:

Rheinpfalz (Rhenish Palatinate) may refer to:

• a popular but unofficial name for the modern-day region and for the former district of Palatinate (Pfalz) in the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
• as of 1838 one of several alternative names for the former district Pfalz of the Kingdom of Bavaria which roughly corresponded with the modern-day region. Other names were Bavarian Palatinate (Bayerische Pfalz), Rhine Bavaria (Rheinbayern) or Bavaria beyond the Rhine (Bayern jenseits des Rheines).
• a name alternatively used for the Electoral Palatinate instead of "Lower Palatinate" to differentiate it from the Upper Palatinate
• one of 5 planning regions of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany, covering the area of the Anterior Palatinate
• the former name of the Palatinate wine region, Germany.

although hard to see, i would have thought your spirit of cooperation always to be present.Sundar1 (talk) 13:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)