Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: María (habla conmigo) 19:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I've been asked to review this article for GAC. Comments will be listed below over the next several days. María (habla conmigo) 19:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

This is another great G&S-related article! I enjoyed reading it, and only see minor issues with the prose and ref formatting. These concerns admittedly do not stand in the way of the article being promoted to GA, but seeing as how I think this is FAC-bound, I'll be quite picky. (Probably why I was asked to review in the first place? :) Here is how it stands against the criteria:

1. Well-written: For the most part; see issues below.
2. Factually accurate and verifiable: Yes.
3. Broad in its coverage: Yes.
4. Neutral: Yes.
5. Stable: Yes.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: Yes. All images check out.

Early life

• Beginning with nothing, Carte built two theatres, built and acquired several hotels and founded an opera company that ran continuously for over a hundred years. -- There's the repetition of "built" here, which continues later in the lead. I'm also not sure what is meant by "beginning with nothing"; is this referring to his childhood? If that's the case, a less euphemistic description may help with the clarity.

• I rewrote it. See what you think. It had been suggested by another editor recently that I beef up the first paragraph, so I wrote that sentence, but you are right that my first try was crap. I hope this one is better! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Much better, although I made a small change to break up the "and"s. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Carte was born in Greek Street in the West End of London... -- is being born "in" a street a British thing? To me it should read "was born on", but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, it may help to reiterate the date of his birth, as it's not mentioned outside of the lead.

• Yes, apparently. I'm not from those lovely Islands, being a colonial like you, but Tim riley can confirm. Tim? Repeated birth date. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

"In" a street is the English usage, though the Americanism "on" a street is becoming increasingly common among young English persons. I correct them as best I can. Tim riley (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Hear hear! Poke them with a sharp stick if they remonstrate! -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, seeing as how we Yanks park on a driveway and drive on a parkway, we're not exactly ones to emulate. :) María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Of Welsh and Norman ancestry (D'Oyly is a Norman French name),[2] To supplement his income as a performer... -- The punctuation and grammar are wonky here.

• Oops! Embarrassing error! I had rewritten something and left this unfortunate sentence fragment. Well, I am in good company, as at least three other seasoned editors reviewing the piece have missed it. Fixed now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• He studied music during this time and composed some pieces, which he dedicated to the actress Kate Terry. -- This is mainly out of curiosity, but did he know her personally, or merely admire her work?

• I don't know. They were the same age, both turning 17 years old in 1861 as she was beginning her London stage career (having already achieved some fame as a child and teenage actress). Unfortunately, none of the sources have much information about Richard's life in the 1860s, as he worked for his father's firm. He certainly knew many musicians and theatre people. Kate's juvenile stage career had included a lot of singing, so perhaps she had asked him to compose songs for her. Maybe they flirted breathlessly at the music shoppe or at a dinner attended by musicians and theatre people. Maybe he waited at the stage door after her performances. She had a meteoric career, beginning in 1861, and was lavishly praised by the critics. She abruptly left the stage in 1867, at the age of 23, to marry a wealthy man. One of the greatest losses in theatre history no doubt. Her sister Ellen Terry took over where she left off and became the most famous Shakespearean actress of the era, but one gets the feeling that everyone thought Kate was even more talented (see Kate's grandson John Gielgud's autobiography for more). Coincidentally, their younger sister Marion Terry later became one of W. S. Gilbert's protegées. A rather incestuous Victorian theatre community! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I've combed the bookshelves and can't add anything substantive to Ssilver's exegesis, supra. - Tim riley (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm almost sorry I asked! :) At the time I was reading, the brief mention of Terry seemed peripheral. Since she's obviously a notable figure from the time, I don't think she should be removed from Carte's bio, but seeing as how there's not much more to be added... eh. I'm torn. Just something to think about, I suppose. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Career

• During the late 1860s and early 1870s, from within his father's firm and then from a nearby address in Craig's Court, Charing Cross, Carte was beginning to build an operatic and concert management agency... -- "began", rather than "was beginning"?

• OK, done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• On tour in 1871 Carte conducted Sullivan's Cox and Box... -- Sullivan needs to be reintroduced here, as he's only mentioned in the lead previously.

• Good eye! Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• He later wrote to Gilbert... -- Same as above.

• Yup. I'm so ashamed.... (hangs head in a way that elicits sympathy, and maybe even an acting award) -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Furthermore, in 1874 Carte did not yet have the resources to make his idea into reality; he did not renew his lease at the Opera Comique.[24] In the same year, he assisted in joining his client, Offenbach, with H. B. Farnie to write a new operetta on the theme of Dick Whittington and His Cat, which played in the Christmas season at the Alhambra Theatre. -- This passage needs to be tightened as it lacks clarity. Is it meant that Carte introduced Offenbach, his client, to Farnie, and together they wrote the new operetta? I'm also not sure how the first sentence, split by the semi-colon, is clear enough. Did he lack the resources because he did not renew his lease, or the other way around?

• Er, again the source is not crystal clear: Either he didn't renew his lease at the Opera Comique because he blew his capital on the 1874 season and didn't have the resources to mount another season at all; or, he wanted to wait until he had the resources to mount a season of original English works, which would have required more horsepower than what he did in the 1874 season. The 1874 was his first season as a producer, and I'll bet that it is common to take a break after your first big venture and reassess. You'll notice that the next year he took a job as theatre manager, a step down from producer. Of course, I can only write what the sources support directly. The point is that, during the 1874 season, he released his Manifesto, and it wouldn't be long before Destiny and Ambition combined to make him a Big Deal. I tried to rewrite to make it read better; I also fixed the Offenbach thing.

• Much better now. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Gilbert and Sullivan are introduced and linked in the paragraph that begins In 1875, Carte became the business manager of the Royalty Theatre..., so make sure to remove links if they are done as suggested above.

• Righteo! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• At the Theatre Royal, in Dublin, Ireland in September 1875, while there managing the first tour of Trial by Jury, Carte met a young Scottish actress, Susan Couper Black, who used the stage name Helen Lenoir. -- The numerous commas here make reading this slightly difficult. "While managing the first tour of Trial by Jury at the Theatre Royal in Dublin, Ireland in September 1875, Carte met..."?

• I broke the sentence in two. Should be easier to read now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Carte's assistant, Helen Lenoir, who became his wife in 1888, made fifteen visits to America in the 1880s and 1890s to promote Carte's interests... -- Should the fact that Lenoir became Carte's wife be mentioned when she is first introduced? I thought that may be the case while reading the above excerpt, but since 13 years elapse in just a few paragraphs, it may help to mention it sooner. I'm not completely sure, however.

• What? And ruin the suspense? LOL. OK, I added something. See if you like it better, or want to go back to how it was, or if you have a Plan C. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Hm, I do rather like it mentioned up front, I admit. Although instead of "In 1888, three years after the death of his first wife, Carte married Lenoir", should it be "Carte and Lenoir were married"? The former seems somewhat redundant given the previous sentence. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• They hoped to forestall further "piracy" by establishing the authorised production and tours in America before others could copy it and by delaying publication of the score and libretto. -- Of course I caught the oh so subtle "piracy"/Pirates of Penzance pun going on here, but perhaps copyright infringement should be linked. :)

• I added the link. Note, however, that it wasn't really copyright infringement, because there was no law being violated. Gilbert and Sullivan (and Carte) WISHED that they could have copyright protection in America, but there was no treaty or American law giving foreign authors a copyright. G&S and Carte sued American producers at least twice, but the US courts gave our boys the finger. As the sources describe in rather dry and academic detail, their efforts were actually important in the rise of international copyright protection, but they themselves never reaped the benefits. Anyhow, I refrain from going into gory detail on this. G&S *considered* it copyright piracy, and this idea partly inspired the theme of their next opera, and I think we've given enough, but not too much, info. Do you agree? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, certainly. It's all very fascinating, but I agree that TMI would be, well, TMI. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• It was financed by profits from The Mikado.[80] It was the first hotel lit by... -- Combine these two, perhaps as "Financed by profits from The Mikado, it was the first hotel..."

• Ooh! Good idea! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• During the years when the Gilbert and Sullivan operas were being written, Richard D'Oyly Carte also produced operas by other composer–librettist teams, either as curtain-raisers to the Gilbert and Sullivan pieces or as touring productions, as well as other works to fill the Savoy Theatre in between Savoy operas, and he also toured the Gilbert and Sullivan operas extensively. For example, a souvenir programme commemorating the 250th performance of Patience in London and its 100th performance in New York shows that, in addition to these two productions of Patience, Carte was simultaneously producing two companies touring with Patience, two companies touring with other Gilbert and Sullivan operas, a company touring with Olivette (co-produced with Charles Wyndham) a company touring Claude Duval in America, a production of Youth running at a New York theatre, a lecture tour by Archibald Forbes (a war correspondent) and productions of Patience, Pirates, Claude Duval and Billee Taylor in association with J. C. Williamson in Australia, among other things. -- These two sentences are huge; any way to break them up so they flow easier?

• Done, I think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• The Mikado became the partnership's longest-running hit, enjoying 672 performances at the Savoy Theatre, the second longest run for any work of musical theatre up to that time... -- Pinafore is also referred to as the "second-longest run in musical theatre history up to that time." Could this be rephrased to say that Mikado usurped Pinafore's former record?

• OK. Actually, first Pinafore, then Patience, then Mikado. All fixed now, I hope. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Legacy

• This section does seem skimpy in comparison to the rest of the article. Consider this a comment outside of the GA review, but I would suggest perhaps plumping this area up with testimonies by those who worked with, comments about his talent and overall effect on theatre at the time, etc. Several of these types of quotes appear throughout the "Career" section, but there must be others?

• Tim - some help here? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Will delve in the archives and see what I can find. We may need to distinguish between Carte's corporeal legacy (Savoy etc) and his aesthetic one. Will rummage and report back Tim riley (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I've dug out a quote from GBS and another from The Times obit: see what you think. Tim riley (talk) 14:34, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I've found some further useful - I hope - additions along the lines suggested by Maria. Pray ponder. - Tim riley (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks great! Much improved. María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

References

• Is there a reason why {{reflist|2}} is not used?

• Yes! I am too stupid! Since I use Internet Explorer, I can't see the columns, so it never occurs to me. Fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Lol! María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Whether or not you choose to use the template, the works listed under "References" need to be consistently formatted. Bettany and Goodman, for example, do not match Ainger and Young in style. The majority use Chicago.

• I hate ref formatting. I've reformatted all except Seeley, which is a journal article. Would someone please help with that? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Done; I have the most problem with journal articles, as well. I never know what to do with the volume/issue numbers... María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

That's all of the technical comments I have to make. Again speaking outside of the GA review for a moment, I think this is a rather good article, and it may have a chance at FA in the near future. With that in mind, however, I would be careful not to stray too much into G&S and too far away from Carte. Several times I lost sight of whose biography I was in fact reading. :) Although G&S were obviously a huge part of his life and success, I found myself wanting to know more about the man, rather than his works, or the works that he facilitated. I got the sense that he was a man who lived for his work, but surely there were other aspects to his character? As for the review, although there are no serious concerns, I'll still place the article on hold so the above can be addressed. Let me know when you're ready for me to take another look! María (habla conmigo) 16:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks so much for these really excellent comments, Maria. For now, I think this is pretty much all we know about Carte the man, unless Tim can come up with more. I don't have any plans to go to FA right away. I'm content for now, to have a solid GA article on Carte, and I think I'm going to turn back to the G&S operas themselves, and try to move several of them towards GA. I was feeling really beat up in the Pinafore FA process, and I had no help dealing with the comments. So, I'm not inclined to do FA again on a G&S article any time soon, unless Tim is really hot to do one. Going solo at FA isn't much fun. I'll look over the article, though, and see if I can work on the G&S focus and see if I can make sure it is focused on Carte rather than G&S throughout. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added a few bits about the hotel side of the Carte empire, and a couple of tiny things about his personal life - but Carte remains curiously elusive as a person. - Tim riley (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I also went through again and streamlined the G&S info a bit, trying also to make sure that all the discussion of G&S is aimed at explaining Carte's role. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Final comments

I'm impressed with the corrections and additions, and only made a couple small fixes myself to the article just now. The "Legacy" section in particular is much improved, especially with the addition of quotes regarding Carte's impact on his field of work. I see no further issues, so I'll be promoting this article to GA-status. Congrats, guys! On a sidenote, I completely understand the disenchantment with FAC, but it's always worth it in the end, isn't it? Let me know if/when you need anything else, María (habla conmigo) 14:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)