Talk:Richard Francis Burton/Archive

Discussions prior to 2006

--- UPDATE (4/21/2005): I went ahead and changed the previous text to put more emphasis on the danger of the journey and also added info on the first European to make the Hajj.

The exploit of accompanying the Muslim hadji (pilgrims) to the holy cities was not unique, nor so dangerous as has been imagined. Several Europeans accomplished it before and since Burton. Nonetheless, he did it with great skill.

There are two problems with this statement:

1. How dangerous was it? N.M. Penzer, in Selected Papers on Anthropology, Travel, and Exploration, notes that "it is hard to say which was the most dangerous of his exploits—the journey to Mecca or that to Harrar. Burton once said that the chances of getting killed were greater on the journey to Harrar, but I feel that his tremendous interest in the Pilgrimage may have tended to minimize the dangers..." --Penzer, p. 23

Burton himself, in his pamphlet "The Guide-Book to Mecca" contained in the Penzer volume, writes: "...neither Koran or Sultan enjoin the death of Jew or Christian intruding within the columns that note the sanctuary limits, nothing could save a European detected by the populace, or one who after pilgrimage declared himself an unbeliever." --Penzer, p. 30

Granted, Burton was well-equipped to handle the dangers of his journey, but it was still incredibly dangerous! Also, the first sentence is written in the passive voice (bad!); who has done the imagining?

If discovered, anyone who is not a Muslim (especially in the 19^th century!) is in a very precarious situation. The discovered individual not only offends "real" pilgrims because of the deceit involved, but changes their status from pilgrim and Muslim to hypocrite. The idea of hypocrites originated in political incidents of various groups of people professing belief, and then subverting Muhammad during his time in Medina (Qur'an, 9:67-68; Qur'an, 4:142-143; Qur'an, 47: 28-30).

Although I can't find any good information on executions of impostors during the Pilgrimage, it is not unreasonable to consider it a possibility, and a very real one at that.

2. How many and of what nature were any precedent(s)? Ludivico di Varthema (Italian) made the trip in 1503. John Ludwig Burckhardt (Swiss) made the trip in 1812. Domingo Badia y Leblich (Spanish) supposedly made the trip in 1807, but there is some doubt as to how accurate his account is as he traveled "in a most princely fashion, giving out that he was a descendant of the Abbassid Caliphs of the West, and travelling in state with a great retinue of servants and attendants, and scattering largesse in all directions as he journeyed." Why would he travel in this way, drawing an immense amount of attention to himself? Ulrich Jaspar Seetzen (Russian) made the trip in 1809. Giovanni Finati (Italian) made the trip in 1814. Leon Roches (French) made the trip in 1841. Wallin (Finnish...only name provided) made the trip in 1843.

Additionally, several European prisoners made it to Mecca, but I don't think that counts.

Unless some good arguments to the contrary are introduced in the next day or two, I will change original statement to be more in line with the exceptions that I have made above.

Sources: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Jeffery/mecca_travel.htm (Christian site. See: http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html.) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/discovery/varthema.html Selected Papers on Anthropology, Travel, and Exploration, N.M. Penzer

--dws, 4/19/05

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I'm cutting this way down from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica and modernizing -- putting in the sex, detuning the prose, etc.

I hope someone familiar with Indian languages, such as Gujarati will check the spellings here.

I'm just getting started. At least two more phases to go. Ortolan88

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...visited with Brigham Young in Salt Lake City, Utah,

Did anything particularly interesting come of this meeting? --Brion VIBBER

Not much, he wrote a book called The City of the Saints after a "flying visit". Have to plow through EB11 before I dig out some other books.Ortolan88

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Do you think (Orientalist) is the best way to describe him? I've made a page for Richard Francis Burton and redirected it here, perhaps it should be the other way around. I'm thinking of adding a reference to the movie "Mountains of the moon". Speke hasn't had anyone's attention yet.

This page started with someone's assertion that the actor was the famous one and this guy was obscure. I objected and started this page. With redirects and so forth, it doesn't matter whether the main page is "Richard Francis Burton" or "Richard Burton (orientalist)", but when you have two famous people named "Richard Burton", you still have to distinguish them. Orientalist was what everyone called this amazing explorer/translator/traveller/anthropologist/controversialist/soldier/diplomat at the time.

As soon as I finish with the rest of the Burton article, I was planning to take a look at Speke, which would test my NPOV skills, because I don't think much of him, but he is in the books as the discoverer of the lakes, etc. Please join in on Burton or take a crack at Speke. Ortolan88 05:31 Aug 10, 2002 (PDT)

I did have a biography of Burton, but unfortunately it's one of those books that I lent to someone and never got back(don't you hate that!). Speke got the credit (some would argue unfavourably), but I think it is unfar to belittle his achievements.

I think the term Orientalist is a rather archaic way to describe him. Mintguy

Well, he's a pretty archaic kind of guy. I find it quaintly appropriate. --Brion VIBBER

In one way I agree with you. For those with a vivid imagination, if you had to sum him up in one word Orientalist conjours up a nice image. For others though I dunno... they might think he was a chef or something. I feel he deserves more than this pigeon-holeing into this obscure esoteric niche Mintguy

Someone suggested the ideal bookplate would read: "Only a friend will steal a book."

I won't belittle Speke in any article, but it will certainly mention, in an NPOV way, that he only went where Burton suggested, he violated an agreement to share credit with Burton, and he died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound in a hunting accident the morning he was supposed to defend himself before an academic body. And you can edit anything I might write, or write it yourself before I get around to it.

"Orientalist" is mainly being used for disambiguation. And, after all, Burton was an archaic guy, better suited to Elizabethan than Victorian times. I don't think "Richard Francis Burton" would be sufficient disambiguation because people might still think that was the actor's full name. If you want to work out a better disambiguation, go ahead and give it a try. As long as people can find the article, I don't care, but I did give some thought to the article name. Ortolan88 16:25 Aug 10, 2002 (PDT)

I suspect it would be enough to have a disambiguation block at the top of each, like so:

This article is about Richard Francis Burton, the 19th century adventurer, scholar, etc. If you are looking for the 20th-century actor Richard Burton, click the above link.

and

This article is about Richard Burton, the 20th-century actor. If you are looking for Richard Francis Burton, the 19th-century adventurer, scholar, etc, click the above link.

What do you think? --Brion VIBBER

Sounds okay to me. I just finished working through the encyclopedia material. I'll move this article to Richard Francis Burton and put the rest of it there, along with the suggested paragraphs. But I'm putting the word orientalist in there somewhere! Ortolan88 18:02 Aug 10, 2002 (PDT)

Wait a minute! I can't figure out how to edit a redirect page! I'm putting the new text here while I figure it out, or someone answers me here. I tried entering the URL directly with action=edit, but I came back here. Ortolan88

Ortolan --- at the top of the page, it says "Redirected from" -- click on that link and you can edit it. -- Zoe

Gosh! And Gee! I can't imagine why I didn't think of that! All moved around and fixed now, but Mintguy you do the heavy lifting on the next one. Ortolan88 19:05 Aug 10, 2002 (PDT)

Please note: I'm going to use the "move page" function to rename Richard Burton (orientalist) to Richard Francis Burton with the edit history preserved intact. This means I will temporarily delete the Richard Francis Burton that you created. --Brion VIBBER 19:08 Aug 10, 2002 (PDT)

Okay, if that's the drill, but you should diff the two articles in case I made some minor changes in finishing off the Richard Francis Burton version. Ortolan88

I took the text that you put in Richard Francis Burton, check it and make sure it's still what you want. --Brion VIBBER

Looks fine. I feel like I just fought my way out of Somaliland. Ortolan88

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The book "The Jew, the Gipsy and el Islam" published in 1898 contains many anti-semitic myths.

The wording isn't clear: does this mean that he identified them as myths in the book, or that he repeated them as truths? —Paul A 04:12 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Anti-Semitic Link

I removed a link to an edition of Burton's "The Jew…." It pointed to http://www.REMOVETHISPARTjrbooksonline.com/jgei.htm, which is flatly anti-semitic. (Indeed, even as he commends Burton's attitude toward Jews the author faults Burton for a "a strange bias favoring Islamic practitioners and Gypsies.")

I am not sure what the Wikipedia terms are on this, but I know that the pre-eminent search engine, Google uses links as votes. The problem is compounded by the fact that this link is in running text. It looks like an internal Wikipedia link, not an external link. And it certainly doesn't mention that Burton's text is only part of a page, the rest of which is the most vile hate.

I don't think it is fair to describe Burton as anti-Semitic. He ran into a lot of trouble during his internship at Damascus by angering a group of Jewish money lenders and they made the claim that he was anti-Semitic. I think that certainly in the context of the time he was not anti-semitic though I'm aware that sections of The Gypsy, the Jew and El Islam can be read in that light.--Richard Clegg 08:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Derby

Which Lord Derby praised Burton? My guess would be either the former prime minister (Edward Smith-Stanley, 14th Earl of Derby) or his son, Edward Stanley, 15th Earl of Derby. As it stands just linking to Lord Derby is grossly insufficient. Mackensen (talk) 12:24, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

The Perfumed Garden

I altered this para because it is incorrect:

His translation of The Perfumed Garden was burned by his widow, Isabel Arundel Gordon, because she believed it would be harmful to his reputation.

This para also needs work because it is rather dated:

His widow wrote a biography of her husband which is the record of a lifetime of devotion. Another monument is the grandiose Arab tent of stone and marble which she built for his tomb at Mortlake in southwest London. On the other hand, she burnt his 40-year collection of diaries and journals, fearful that public revelation of Burton's lifelong interest in bizarre sexual practices would lead to vicious rumours about his personal inclinations. In the words of the 1997 Britannca, "the loss to history and anthropology was monumental; the loss to Burton's biographers, irreparable". --mervyn 10:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)