Talk:Richard J. Tallman
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Mztourist in topic September 2021
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.September 2021
editWhy specifically are you reverting my expansion of this article? I have added fully sourced information to expand and add depth to this page. FLJuJitsu 13:37, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- FLJuJitsu Infoboxes should not look like traffic lights with flags and unit insignia, read WP:INFOBOXFLAG. Being one of 350+ soldiers to be awarded three CIBs isn't supported by the source provided and of dubious importance. His son graduating from West Point after his death is trivial and irrelevant. Also the photo you added just seems to have come from that [1] site which is not a US Army website and so is not a free use picture. Mztourist (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist You need to stop removing relevant fully sourced information. Stop. Now. The image is U.S. Army image no matter who previously hosted it. Fact. You also need to stop removing factual historical information such as his status as a triple CIB award winner and four tours in Vietnam. Its not up to you to decided what is and is not important. Your personal opinion is irrelevant; it is however appropriate to include all available details of his biography. You are borderline warring right now and have been warned. This may need to go to mediation because you're deleting valid, sourced information. FLJuJitsu (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist I don't feel that you and I are going to find a solution here between just us. I formally submitted a request for third-party arbitration to help smooth over the questions at hand. I'd make one point re: the triple CIB. We have awarded 3,473 Medals of Honor making it one of the rarest decorations in the military which is why it rightfully has the status it does. In contrast there have only been ~362 triple CIBs awarded. I wouldn't suggest that award of triple CIB alone would rate someone getting a page on here but it is a rear enough achievement that it is to my mind 100% worth inclusion when someone has crossed the threshold to warrant a write up here. FLJuJitsu (talk) 07:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be curious to know just HOW he earned a CIB in Vietnam, considering he doesn't seem to have picked up so much as an ARCOM when he was the commander of 2/501. That in and of itself is highly unusual. Add to this the only real source here is what was likely an obituary-type article in the NYT. And four tours? Even the HonorStates site (which is questionable for RS) only lists three tours. Intothatdarkness 21:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- FLJuJitsu it would help if you got basic facts straight. Tallman served three tours in South Vietnam, not four. You haven't provided any RS to support the claim that he was one of only 362 US soldiers to be awarded 3 CIBs and so it is unsupported and should not be included. Your statement that the image "is U.S. Army image no matter who previously hosted it" is wrong on so many counts. If it was a US Army image then you need to show exactly what US Army site or publication it came from, if you can't do that then we have no way of determining its copyright status and it must be deleted as a potential copyright violation which is why I proposed it for deletion on Commons. Mztourist (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist I think this is where we are having our friction. I'm assuming you didn't read the sources I provided to begin with, which induced a very clear callout of a CIB third award and instead deleted the corrections I made. [1] I'd also point out he literally has a triple CIB on his headstone. [2][3]Take a moment to look over the source I cited. It also looks like he's missing a Bronze Star from Korea on his list of decorations. [4][5] And also he completed three tours and was on his fourth when he was killed [6]. So as I said back at the start, is there a specific reason you're deleting fully sourced information? All of this information needs to be returned. FLJuJitsu (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- FLJuJitsu where we are having our friction is you not providing RS and/or not reading them correctly. You have not provided any RS to support the claim that he was one of only 362 US soldiers to be awarded 3 CIBs and that this is therefore extremely notable, you have only provided sources confirming that he received 3 CIBs. He was not on his fourth tour of Vietnam, the Military Hall of Honor site clearly states "Tallman served three tours of duty in Vietnam during the war" and this is also stated in the NYT story that I added. The resolution and plaque on the bridge are therefore wrong. In relation to his medals as was noted by Intothat there is a lack of reliable sources confirming his medals, so we only include what we can confirm from the RS. So no this is not "fully sourced information" that "needs to be returned." Mztourist (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist Please read the source that I provided then get back to me. It clearly states that he had completed three tours and was into his fourth at the time of his death.[7] That is an actual government document BTW. Look, man I've provided you with multisource validation ranging from actual government documents to other sources to validate the information I'm inputting. As I said, this may need to wait for mediation. Once that is completed we can move onto the next issue. And I have no idea what additional information you could need to validate the triple CIB, I think I provided you with three sources on that single statement. We need to be providing all of the avliable information on the subject at hand that can be validated, not choosing what any one person feels pertinent in they're personal opinion. 12:49 13 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- This is a state government document, read into the record to justify a memorial. There are other articles out there with similar government documents used to justify statements that aren't accurate. Intothatdarkness 17:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- Intothat is correct, the state document is wrong and of course I read it. FLJuJitsu provide some other reliable source that he was on his 4th tour. Mztourist (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist Ok, if it is incorrect can you provide a source which specifically invalidates it? I'm rather inclined to believe a state-level official document as being reputable. 02:13 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- I already have, the NYT story (which is RS) says he was on his 3rd tour and the Military Hall of Honor site that you believe is so reliable says the same. Mztourist (talk) 02:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- You're going to tell me a government source isn't considered RS? And read my my comments rather than just reacting. I've said that the Hall of Honor shouldn't be considered for anything other than a secondary source. Look man, you really need to start reading my sources and comments before responding and 99% of this would go away. 02:09 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- MztouristI found a digitized copy of the NYT article. No where does it say third tour. Thus the state document becomes our best source which states he compleated three and was into his fourth when he died.[8] 02:15 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- The NYT story states that "He was deputy senior adviser to the South Vietnamese 22d Division during his first tour in South Vietnam in 1964 and returned in 1967 as a battalion commander with the 101st Airborne Division. Several staff posts followed, and he was named chief of staff for the 3rd Regional Assistance Command last January." that's 3 tours, there is no mention of a 4th. As I keep saying the Military Hall of Honor site that you believe is so reliable says the same. So unless you can find a reliable source that says he was on his 4th tour it stays as it is. Mztourist (talk) 15:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC) FWIW here's the Virtual Wall: [2] first comment says he was killed on his 3rd tour. Mztourist (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- MztouristI found a digitized copy of the NYT article. No where does it say third tour. Thus the state document becomes our best source which states he compleated three and was into his fourth when he died.[8] 02:15 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- You're going to tell me a government source isn't considered RS? And read my my comments rather than just reacting. I've said that the Hall of Honor shouldn't be considered for anything other than a secondary source. Look man, you really need to start reading my sources and comments before responding and 99% of this would go away. 02:09 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- I already have, the NYT story (which is RS) says he was on his 3rd tour and the Military Hall of Honor site that you believe is so reliable says the same. Mztourist (talk) 02:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist Ok, if it is incorrect can you provide a source which specifically invalidates it? I'm rather inclined to believe a state-level official document as being reputable. 02:13 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- Intothat is correct, the state document is wrong and of course I read it. FLJuJitsu provide some other reliable source that he was on his 4th tour. Mztourist (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- This is a state government document, read into the record to justify a memorial. There are other articles out there with similar government documents used to justify statements that aren't accurate. Intothatdarkness 17:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist Please read the source that I provided then get back to me. It clearly states that he had completed three tours and was into his fourth at the time of his death.[7] That is an actual government document BTW. Look, man I've provided you with multisource validation ranging from actual government documents to other sources to validate the information I'm inputting. As I said, this may need to wait for mediation. Once that is completed we can move onto the next issue. And I have no idea what additional information you could need to validate the triple CIB, I think I provided you with three sources on that single statement. We need to be providing all of the avliable information on the subject at hand that can be validated, not choosing what any one person feels pertinent in they're personal opinion. 12:49 13 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- FLJuJitsu where we are having our friction is you not providing RS and/or not reading them correctly. You have not provided any RS to support the claim that he was one of only 362 US soldiers to be awarded 3 CIBs and that this is therefore extremely notable, you have only provided sources confirming that he received 3 CIBs. He was not on his fourth tour of Vietnam, the Military Hall of Honor site clearly states "Tallman served three tours of duty in Vietnam during the war" and this is also stated in the NYT story that I added. The resolution and plaque on the bridge are therefore wrong. In relation to his medals as was noted by Intothat there is a lack of reliable sources confirming his medals, so we only include what we can confirm from the RS. So no this is not "fully sourced information" that "needs to be returned." Mztourist (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist I think this is where we are having our friction. I'm assuming you didn't read the sources I provided to begin with, which induced a very clear callout of a CIB third award and instead deleted the corrections I made. [1] I'd also point out he literally has a triple CIB on his headstone. [2][3]Take a moment to look over the source I cited. It also looks like he's missing a Bronze Star from Korea on his list of decorations. [4][5] And also he completed three tours and was on his fourth when he was killed [6]. So as I said back at the start, is there a specific reason you're deleting fully sourced information? All of this information needs to be returned. FLJuJitsu (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- So I did some poking around into this guy's decorations. According to https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/500615 he was awarded the Silver Star in 1968, but he doesn't appear on this list: http://2ndbde.org/ssm.php. I've found the 2nd Bde site to be pretty reliable, as it's backed up by copies of decoration citations. A search for Tallman on Home of Heroes turned up nothing. According to this he was also awarded no less than 4 Legions of Merit between 1965 and his death. The citations on the Hall of Valor Project site tend to be very garbled and often not especially useful, though. Tallman's battalion was part of the 2nd Bde during this time (confirmed in Shelby Stanton's Vietnam Order of Battle), and the Turner Publications' history of the 101st (not RS, but the Vietnam section is drawn directly from the 101st's own divisional history of its participation in Vietnam) references Tallman in an action in May, but NOT the fight where he supposedly earned the Silver Star. This isn't the first time I've run into this issue with Vietnam decorations, but I am wary of the number of issues we're seeing here. Intothatdarkness 20:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- According to this he actually had 11 bronze stars. [9]FLJuJitsu (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- Where do you get 11 Bronze Stars from? Mztourist (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- If the page that I provided above is accurate, and I'm not saying it is, two silver OLC would equal a total of eleven awards of the BSM including at least one with a V device. I am of the opinion we would need to find an additional external source before using this to update the main page. 12:51 13 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- Considering the awards listed on the bio page of that site don't agree with the junk on the awards and decorations page, I'd be very skeptical. Hall of Valor, which isn't especially complete, turned up nothing for Tallman in either Korea or Vietnam, and whoever did the decorations on the Hall of Honor page clearly doesn't know the difference between the BS(V), the BS, and bs in general. Intothatdarkness 17:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that I wouldn't want to use as a primary source, but might be useful as a secondary source to validate information from elsewhere. I did find an external mention of a single BSM from Korea that I think would offer enough validity to be include. 02:13 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- I'd suggest you review sourcing in general. Wikipedia uses reliable secondary sources, not primary sources. Any site such as the Hall of Honor (which isn't official in any real sense and relies on uploaded participant-generated content) isn't reliable. And what external, reliable source documents a BSM(V) or BSM from Korea? Intothatdarkness 19:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC) I also wouldn't class the site you're using to validate the Korean Bronze Star as being RS. It has no sources listed in its bio of Tallman, and it was created to support a documentary film. Intothatdarkness 13:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that I wouldn't want to use as a primary source, but might be useful as a secondary source to validate information from elsewhere. I did find an external mention of a single BSM from Korea that I think would offer enough validity to be include. 02:13 14 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- Considering the awards listed on the bio page of that site don't agree with the junk on the awards and decorations page, I'd be very skeptical. Hall of Valor, which isn't especially complete, turned up nothing for Tallman in either Korea or Vietnam, and whoever did the decorations on the Hall of Honor page clearly doesn't know the difference between the BS(V), the BS, and bs in general. Intothatdarkness 17:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- If the page that I provided above is accurate, and I'm not saying it is, two silver OLC would equal a total of eleven awards of the BSM including at least one with a V device. I am of the opinion we would need to find an additional external source before using this to update the main page. 12:51 13 September 2021 (UTC) FLJuJitsu (talk)
- Where do you get 11 Bronze Stars from? Mztourist (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- According to this he actually had 11 bronze stars. [9]FLJuJitsu (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- FLJuJitsu it would help if you got basic facts straight. Tallman served three tours in South Vietnam, not four. You haven't provided any RS to support the claim that he was one of only 362 US soldiers to be awarded 3 CIBs and so it is unsupported and should not be included. Your statement that the image "is U.S. Army image no matter who previously hosted it" is wrong on so many counts. If it was a US Army image then you need to show exactly what US Army site or publication it came from, if you can't do that then we have no way of determining its copyright status and it must be deleted as a potential copyright violation which is why I proposed it for deletion on Commons. Mztourist (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be curious to know just HOW he earned a CIB in Vietnam, considering he doesn't seem to have picked up so much as an ARCOM when he was the commander of 2/501. That in and of itself is highly unusual. Add to this the only real source here is what was likely an obituary-type article in the NYT. And four tours? Even the HonorStates site (which is questionable for RS) only lists three tours. Intothatdarkness 21:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist I don't feel that you and I are going to find a solution here between just us. I formally submitted a request for third-party arbitration to help smooth over the questions at hand. I'd make one point re: the triple CIB. We have awarded 3,473 Medals of Honor making it one of the rarest decorations in the military which is why it rightfully has the status it does. In contrast there have only been ~362 triple CIBs awarded. I wouldn't suggest that award of triple CIB alone would rate someone getting a page on here but it is a rear enough achievement that it is to my mind 100% worth inclusion when someone has crossed the threshold to warrant a write up here. FLJuJitsu (talk) 07:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Mztourist You need to stop removing relevant fully sourced information. Stop. Now. The image is U.S. Army image no matter who previously hosted it. Fact. You also need to stop removing factual historical information such as his status as a triple CIB award winner and four tours in Vietnam. Its not up to you to decided what is and is not important. Your personal opinion is irrelevant; it is however appropriate to include all available details of his biography. You are borderline warring right now and have been warned. This may need to go to mediation because you're deleting valid, sourced information. FLJuJitsu (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://militaryhallofhonor.com/honoree-record.php?id=280763
- ^ https://billiongraves.com/grave/Richard-J-Tallman/5891132
- ^ https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=101331
- ^ https://borinqueneers.com/en_US/soldier/bg-richard-j-tallman/
- ^ https://borinqueneers.com/en_US/soldier/bg-richard-j-tallman/
- ^ https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/US/PDF/2011/0/0058..PDF
- ^ https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/US/PDF/2011/0/0058..PDF
- ^ https://www.nytimes.com/1972/07/10/archives/us-general-dies-in-anloc-shelling-deputy-chief-in-the-saigon-region.html
- ^ https://militaryhallofhonor.com/honoree-record.php?id=280763
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