Talk:Richard Phelps (bellfounder)

The pic of Great Tom

The indication is that the print is 1760s, which post dates the casting of the bell at St Paul's. But both the inscription name under which the pic was uploaded, and what can be read of the inscription, suggests that this is the earlier state of the bell, when it was actually at Westminster.

Do we know if, in the recasting, parts of the original inscription were maintained? Reference to Edward can be read on the bell in the print.

If this is the ultimate great Tom, then it is a good lead picture. If it is in fact the medieval bell, then it needs a clear statement in its caption, that this is the bell that was recast. Amandajm (talk) 07:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

From what I can gather on the source page this appears to be the bell that Phelps cast. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Table of cast bells by Phelps

I'm unclear how the table of known bells by Phelps was produced, but it is full of mistakes to the point where it is hard to correct it.

Chichester Cathedral. Tenor was cast in 1706, not 1729, and weighs 18–1–12 (that is, 18 long hundred weight, 1 quarter and 12 pounds — these imperial units are still the standard for weighing bells). Treble was cast in 1729, not 1706, and weighs 5–1–4. [source]. There is currently no bell weighing 29 cwt (the eight is the tenor so the description makes no sense) [source] and I can see no mention to one in the Victoria County History volume referenced. The second (I can't find a weight but probably c. 5½ cwt) was also by Phelps in 1729, but replaced in 1961.

Dorking. I don't know how heavy the previous bells were, but a single bell weighing 102 cwt is inconceivable as it would make it the heaviest ring of bells at the time. 102 cwt is possible as the total weight of eight bells, which would probably mean a tenor of about 25 cwt which seems plausible.

St Magnus-the-Martyr. I don't know how heavy the old Phelps tenor was (probably about 21 cwt, as that is how heavy the T. Mears II replacement was). Phelps cast them as a complete eight; they were augmented to ten by the addition of two trebles by Catlin in 1741; the tenor was replaced in 1845; and bells 3—9 lasted until the bells were removed from the tower in 1940 and finally scrapped in 1976. [source]

St Paul's Cathedral. The three clock bells were by Phelps. Various dates and weights are quoted for the quarter jacks, but 1706 is a new one for me (1707 an 1717 are two usual ones). [source, source, source]. From their notes (Ab and Eb), weights of around 12 cwt and 20 cwt would be expected. The 35 cwt sometimes quoted for the larger one is somewhat larger than expected, though not impossible; 96 cwt given in this article is impossibly heavy for Eb. The details of the hour bell (Great Tom) seem correct.

Cornhill. Originally a full peal of twelve — the first twelve cast as a single instrument, and the only one cast by Phelps. Three of the bells still survive (3, 4, 7 of 12). However, they were cast in 1728, not 1716 [source].

St Andrew's, Holborn. Phelps cast a complete eight for them, not just six bells. Two (5 and 8) were replaced in 1920 and the remainder were scrapped in 1961. [source].

Great St Mary's. Phelps cast a complete ten in 1722–3, not just eight bells, and not as part of a twelve. They were augmented to twelve in 1770. Seven of the ten Phelps bells survive (numbers 3,4,5,6,8,9,10 of 12): the tenor was replaced by Pack & Chapman in 1770, the 11 in 1825 by Dobson, and the 7 in 1923 by Taylors. [source]

St Dionis, Backchurch. Phelps cast a complete ten in 1726, tenor weight c. 19½ cwt. The bells were transfered to All Hallows, Lombard Street in 1878 [source] and moved again to All Hallows, Twickenham in 1951 [source]. Of the Phelps bells, 4 and 8 were replaced in 1750 by Lester; and 10 by Mears & Stainbank in 1951. (3 may have been replaced in 1940 by M&S too, [source], but I'm skeptical.)

St Peter's, St Alban's. Phelps cast a complete eight in 1728, tenor 21–1–26; it did not become a ten until 1787 when it was augmented by Briant. Two bells were later replaced by Briant (5 of 8 in 1805 and 2 of 8 in 1812) [source]. All the bells were lost in 1993 when Whitechapel recast the whole ring.

St Alban's Abbey. Lukis (the source you quote) lists two Phelps bells: 2 and 5 of 8, with the inscription on 2 implying that the treble (of eight) was also by Phelps. The 2 (and 1) were cast in 1730, and the 5 in 1731. I've no idea where 4, 5, 8 and 10 comes from. And the weights are wrong. The tenor would have been a little over a ton, but the Wightman tenor was not replace by Phelps. The three Phelps bells are all gone: 1 of 8 by C & G Mears in 1845, 2 of 8 in 1901 by Mears & Stainbank, and 5 of 8 in 1935 when the bells were augmented to 12 by M&S. [source]

St Mary's, Bury St Edmunds. Bells not (at present, anyway) hung for full-circle ringing. 1, 2, 5, 6, 8 of 8 by Phelps. Quite probably a complete Phelps ring of eight originally. Tenor weight c. 26 cwt. [source].

Limehouse. No information, but a 38 cwt tenor seems unlikely (though not impossible).

Winchester Cathedral. Reference should say page 76. Complete Phelps eight cast in 1734 [source]; tenor weight probably correct at c. 30 cwt. All bells now lost: 1, 2, 4, 6 all recast by time Lukis was writing (1857); 3 and 8 in 1891/2 when ring was augmented to ten by Mears & Stainbank; and the remainder in 1937 when Taylors cast a new heavier twelve.

Winchester College. Tenor weight should be 10–3–3, and the Phelps 3 of 5 (now 4 of 6) weights 8 cwt. [source]

Westminster Abbey. My collection was c. 32 cwt for the tenor, but I can't lay my hands on a suitable source at present.

Bow. The 1738 tenor is usually attributed to Phelps and Lester or just Lester. (It was cast in the year of Phelps' death, and probably Phelps wasn't actually involved in it.) It weighed 53–0–22, which (if you count it as a Phelps bell) would have made it the heaviest bell Phelps cast for full circle ringing, and was cast as the tenor of eight bells. Lost in 1933 when the ring was remodelled by Gillet & Johnson. [source, source]. 41 cwt is the weight of the 1956 Mears & Stainbank tenor.

Also, I'm unclear why the rings mentioned here have been selected. Phelps was a prolific founder and lots of examples of work remains. Wingham, Kent is particularly notable as the only surviving complete Phelps eight in its original state. (Cast 1720, tenor weight 19¼ cwt). [source].

Hope that helps —ras52 (talk) 16:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Good work in clarifying source information. I did my best at gathering info for the previously mentioned table from a wide variety of sources, although I am not very knowledgeable about bells. Perhaps a mere list of bells excluding weights and other details would give readers a good sense of the large number of bells cast over his life time? Your list would be a good start. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)