Talk:Rick Stein

One article out of all his TV shows

That is Rick Stein's Cornwall. Should there not be more?

May try to create.

Condo951795 (talk) 08:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Merge from Chalky (dog)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This has remained open for long enough, the result of this discussion was merge. Cavalryman (talk) 08:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

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I am not convinced Chalky (dog) meets WP:GNG, but that content can be merged here. Ping editors who commented on this at Chalky (dog)'s (talk, edit history includes a PROD and a bold redirect, etc.). @William Harris, Andrew Davidson, Cavalryman, and Condo951795:. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support merge. Analysis of the the article's sources which I initially posted at Talk:Chalky (dog)#Notability:

• Celebrity chef Stein's dog dies, BBC, 16 January 2007

→ reliable & independent Y

→ significant coverage Y

• Robin Oliver (13 September 2006), "Rick Stein's French Odyssey", The Age

→ reliable & independent Y

→ significant coverage N – on an undisclosed date in 2005 the dog was 15 years old

• Laurie Bogart Morrow (2012), "Chalky", The Giant Book of Dog Names, Gallery, p. 88, ISBN 9781451666908

→ reliable & independent Y

→ significant coverage ? – full quote: Chalky Jack Russell Terrier (1989-2007) owned by English chef Rick Stein. Chalky’s Bite and Chalky’s Bark, two beers brewed by Sharps, were named after this dog. So popular was the little dog that his death was announced on the floor of Great Britain’s Parliament.

I think 42 words is a little short of WP:SIGCOV, but there is definitely enough for a mention in Stein's article. Further, whilst previously I was agnostic about where the article was directed, I think this (Stein) article is a better destination than Sharp's Brewery. Cavalryman (talk) 04:10, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Stein said that "he's more famous than me" and he should know. As the dog was famous and there are plenty of sources, the article works fine as it is, especially as there is no difficulty using a photo there. Merge it here and the content would tend to be diluted and diminished. As the page gets about 50 readers per day, there is clear interest in the dog itself rather than as a detail of Stein's life.

We note for the record that this proposal seems to arise due to conflict with Piotrus on unrelated topics as it's part of a flurry of pings from him. It therefore appears to be retaliation contrary to WP:FOLLOWING. Tsk. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:57, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support not convinced at all by an EDM proposed by a former MP. Merge.Condo951795 (talk) 10:41, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per Nigel (dog), a very similar situation. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. Andrew added the Early Day Motion after I prompted him. As per this link, "EDMs very few are debated...In an average session only six or seven EDMs reach over two hundred signatures." The EDM regarding Chalky received three other Signatories, excluding Peeling himself. Is that a significant source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Condo951795 (talk • contribs) 11:42, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. We do not keep articles on Wikipedia based on the number of reads per day, we base in on WP:NOTABILITY and citing WP:RELIABLE sources, and not on what Rick Stein believes. Someone here needs to focus on the topic and not the person; we all grow tired of the bizarre and unfounded attributions as to people's motives, refer WP:AOBF. William Harris (talk) 11:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support merge No independent notability, everything is in relation to Rick Stein. The Banner talk 13:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support merge Everything about the dog exists in relation to his owner, and can be adequately covered at said owner's page. And offhand remark about the dog being more famous is not a definitive fact. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 23:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support merge. WP:GNG —> "Independent of the subject" Chalky became and stayed famous because of his appearances with Rick Stein on his cooking show, etc. Like SilverTiger12 said, a comment — made tongue-in-cheek — isn't fodder for notability.  — Myk Streja ^(beep) 14:56, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Rick Stein.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Missing book?

Why is Mr Stein’s book ‘From Venice to Istanbul’ not mentioned under publications? Porthillbilly (talk) 07:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Rick Stein is not cornish

Rick Stein was listed under the category:Cornish people, which is not factual, and there is no citation of him describing himself as cornish. If such a category should be in place, it should be category category:English people or category:British people Bejakyo (talk) 20:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you look up the description of the category? I have the idea you did not. That description read: People who are closely associated with Cornwall or identified themselves with Cornwall, but who were not necessarily actually born or raised there. With eight of his restaurants (two closed down by now) in Cornwall, it is safe to say he is "closely associated with Cornwall". The Banner talk 21:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The statement on the category, which I did indeed read though I thank your counterfactual concern, states "not necessarily actually born or raised there" is in reference to Cornish people not born in cornwall, or were and moved at some point in their life, or alternatively were born/raised by one or both Cornish parents. Cornish people not in Cornwall is refered to as Cornish diaspora.

The much more common instance in the United Kingdom owning to larger population is Irish people who may been born in Britain. For the inverse, there have been many English people who have either moved to or been born in one of the other celtic regions of the British and Irish Isles. However they don't "go native" for want of a less loaded term, and failing an identification otherwise, often continue to describe by either English or often British.

Even with that, the fact remains that him being a Cornish person is not sourced as it stands and is accordingly not mentioned in the body Bejakyo (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

So you dismiss 8 restaurants in Cornwall as a reason to believe that he is associated with Cornwall? And ignore the sources given? The Banner talk 21:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

restraunt ownership is not an worthwhile or encyclopedic qualifier of membership of a recognised national minority (again see: Cornish people). Going by "they do businesses there", does Murdoch become a British person or American? does an English landlord become Irish instead by way of landownership? it's not a maintainable category

and as you did not adress it, as per WP:BLP all claims have to be verifiable with a source, which your claim is not. If you can find a source to back it up then it at least fits WP:BLP Bejakyo (talk) 21:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC

Where does it state that the "category Cornish people" is limited to a "recognised national minority"? I think you confuse the Category:Cornish people (description: People who are closely associated with Cornwall or identified themselves with Cornwall, but who were not necessarily actually born or raised there) with Category:People from Cornwall (description: This category includes only people who were born or raised in Cornwall. For people closely associated with Cornwall, but not born or raised there, see Category:Cornish people, and article Cornish people.) The Banner talk 22:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

"identified themselves with Cornwall" not "people who live in cornwall who have not been verified as Cornish"

Not sure why you need to put the status of cornish people being a recognised national minority in MOS:SCAREQUOTES. Incase you're unfamiliar the United Kingdom has recognised Cornish people as a national minority group since 2014, through the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

edit: as you edited your comment as I started writing mine, again, there is a lack of verifibility. What may count informaly does not count within an encylopedic context (particularly with WP:BLP) Bejakyo (talk) 22:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I still think you confuse both categories. The designation by the Council of Europe has no significance for Wikipedia categories. And I suggest that you read this source given in the article. The Banner talk 22:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

the 2014 recognition of national minority was by the United Kingdom, not the Council of Europe.

source does not seem to load for me. Can you send a archive.is or archive.org link? Bejakyo (talk) 22:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

It is the same source as used in the article. I assumed you had checked all the sources... The Banner talk 23:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I have read the article, and have also read through some of its sources. I especially must confess that I am unable to verify which source you are referencing due to the archive site linked not loading for me; I requested a archive.is archive.org link as I must confess I must confess I've not read through all 66 sources and that I'm also unable to guess which source you're referring...

If providing an alternative archive link is an issue, a plain link or pointing to the specific citation in question would also suffice Bejakyo (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

So you claims of stuff not being sourced without reading the sources. Making it a baseless claim, further fuelled by mixing up two categories. Not convincing at all. The Banner talk 00:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

My comment clearly states that your source simply does not load, and I made a uncomplicated request for a alternate link of the same source you are citing, so I can attempt to verify your claim. Your inability to even name the lone source to allow that to be done comes of as needlessly obstructionist

Secondly as clearly stated the category:Cornish_people is for both "propper" Cornish people, and Cornish people who are English. It is not as you baselessly claim "actually category:people_from_cornwall" that I'm thinking of, as I'm aware they're different categories as not all Cornish people are born in Cornwall (again, see:Cornish diaspora). You seem to be unaware of the deliniation, but not all category:people_from_cornwall are Cornish people, there is a solid proportion of people in Cornwall who self-describe as English only, British only, or otherwise, some of which are born here, some of which are born here and move. There are indeed English people who, although born and raised in England, move to Cornwall in their young adult years and although rarer, a small number do begin self-describing as Cornish as well.

I'm afraid I will not be engaging in discussion with you unless you provide an accessible link to the source you refer to so a productive discussion might continue (which I do ernestly hope happens). should you not, I refer you back to WP:BLP which states material likely to be challanged must contain inline citations, and that claims must be verifiable Bejakyo (talk) 01:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

As I said before: So you claims of stuff not being sourced without reading the sources. Making it a baseless claim, further fuelled by mixing up two categories. Not convincing at all. To be rude, this smells like POV-pushing. The Banner talk 16:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:Rude indeed.

are you able to provide a plain or functioning link and stop being obstructionist or not. Bejakyo (talk) 19:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

And the description at the category is also valid for people closely associated with Cornwall but not born there. The Banner talk 21:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I have requested a Third Opinion at WP:3O. The Banner talk 17:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit: this comment was previously within the WP:30, as I had misunderstood the point of the template and have already been involved in the discussion, I have moved the comment to the correct space)

user:Cerebral726 I appricate you providing sources for your claim, thank you for your input.

Its worth noting that there are likewise a non-exhastive list of sources describing him both English ([1] [2] [3] [4]), and as British ([5] [6] [7] [8] [9]).

As this article is a WP:BLP, I would especially like to draw attention to Rick Stein's own site[10] where he describes himself as a Britsh chef and english chef at different locations but not cornish. It's often the case on persons WP:BLPs of people in the UK to have the article use the indivudals own description to avoid controversy. Worth consideration Bejakyo (talk) 19:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Then to match the sources, the categories that involve him being English should also be kept. But there seem to be plenty of sources that call him "Cornish" (this one as well as the ones below), enough for him to have that category added. He is extremely obviously "closely associated with Cornwall", per the category description. Cerebral726 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

it's simply not a done and done assertion and as such should not be in a biography of a living person. Especially as, while there is not a consensus amoung public media to his referal, the majority refer to him as either English or British, not Cornish (this one as well as the ones I've previously provided)

most importantly, Rick Stein does not describe as cornish and instead describes himself as English per his own site and as user:Gwikor Frank pointed out, is something he actively shys away from as he feels "personally quite anxious about being seen as a spokesman for Cornwall". I fear having an article described as cornish when he himself does not raises WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues, and is unencylopedic. Bejakyo (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

aditionally user:The Banner it would be appricated if you stopped wp:edit warring and re-entered into productive discussion, as I now see you have gone on to push your POV onto other articles such as list of people from Cornwall which you have likewise added him to without establishing wp:consensus on this article. Further you are pushing your POV by attempting to achive a full protection of the article to maintain your biased POV without establishing consensus.

if you are unable to do such, perhaps there would be worth in having @User:Cerebral726 to mediate, as they've been very amicable and productive in this discussion, even as I disagree with them.Bejakyo (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I see no reason why I should agree with your POV-pushing and your editwarring. The Banner talk 15:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Your actions are sadly ignoring verifiable sources including Rick Steins own words to push your own POV, and violates WP:NPOV and WP:BLP Bejakyo (talk) 15:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding Stein to the list of people from Cornwall is obviously not POV pushing. Even if your argument about Cornish not being a demonym, only a minority group, was convincing (which it is not), that still would be a totally valid addition, as the article is explicitly about "native Cornish people or others who have been long-term residents". You are the only one violating NPOV and ignoring valid sources. We can easily dismiss the arguments that the BBC and the Guardian are "biased and incorrect sources" as Gwikor Frank says below. The category should be added. Cerebral726 (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't make any statements of regarding Gwikor alledging bias of the BBC and Guaridan, so I would request that you do not hold such against me.

Something that is worth bringing up regarding the sources you provided is that all of them were published on or before 2009, with the earliest being from 2002, while the sources I provided ([11] [12] [13] [4][14] [15] [16] [17] [18]) are much more varied along publishing date, including ones published after the legal reconition of Cornish people as a nationality. It seems neither yourself nor The Banner have so much as acknowlaged these sources due to them not fitting your POVs, even as I have engaged with the sources you have provided.

Aditionally I am not stating that Cornish is a denonym, I am stating that it is a national minority, and denonym, and is denonym that Rick Stein does not describe by. If there is an instance of him describing I would appriciate a source backing up this claim

Finally I'm afraid that you've misunderstood what I have said. The Banner has observed a discussion and tried to WP:Game the discussion by revert warring, having his revert locked in via a protection request (which was denied due to The Banner's edit warring), and before this discussion has even resolved to a consensus, has gone to other articles to impose his own POV. none of which are conductive of a productive discussion. Bejakyo (talk) 18:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

No my friend, you are playing games. And you are not listening to what we have to say. All men and women in Cornwall (except foreigners) are British citizens. You too; and Gwikor Frank too.

But the main point is that nor Category:Cornish people (description: People who are closely associated with Cornwall or identified themselves with Cornwall, but who were not necessarily actually born or raised there), nor Category:People from Cornwall (description: This category includes only people who were born or raised in Cornwall. For people closely associated with Cornwall, but not born or raised there, see Category:Cornish people, and article Cornish people.) is limited to people belonging to the national minority. Still that is the card you play. The Banner talk 19:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I would appriciate it if you refrain from strawmanning me to hold a position that which I do not hold.

You are well aware as I have previously said there exist English-born Cornishmen, both who have been born in Cornwall, and those who were born in England.

The main point is that you still refuse to engage with the sources provided which describe him as English or British, and particularly refuse to engage with Rick Stein's own words as they do not fit with your POV Bejakyo (talk) 19:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The main point is that you still do not understand that we are writing a neutral encyclopedia and that there is no place for activism. You just plain ignore all arguments that do not fit your opinion. The Banner talk 19:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Your bias is continuing to cloud you. You have failed again to engage with the sources I have provided as doing so does not fit your political narative. The e-activism you engage with and your complete non-engagement with sources in is simply not becoming of an encylopedic resourse that demands verifibility

Please productively engage with the arguments and stop beating around the bushBejakyo (talk) 19:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

That is what I want you to do... The Banner talk 19:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to provide productive discussion, please feel free to engage with the sources provided including Rick Sten's own words Bejakyo (talk) 19:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Your sources are correct, as are the sources from The Banner and myself, as is The Banner's interpretation of the definition "People who are closely associated with Cornwall or identified themselves with Cornwall, but who were not necessarily actually born or raised there". He is both English and Cornish. The category belongs. Cerebral726 (talk) 12:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

It seems entirely appropriate to add the category "Cornish people" per the current category description and the arguments made by The Banner. See [19][20][21] for sources that call him "Cornish chef Rick Stein", which could be added to the article to back up the claim. Cerebral726 (talk) 17:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

As a Cornish person, highly disagree. Biased and incorrect sources, especially those supporting the English state make for terrible references. Furthermore, Stein himself does not want this], as he is "personally quite anxious about being seen as a spokesman for Cornwall" as he knows that you will "get bricks thrown at you for saying you speak for anybody here”. It won't let me link the article I'm quoting, but it's https://www.thelondon[XXX]economic.com/news/cornish-people-furious-after-eden-project-co-founder-makes-offensive-comments-about-local-people-312594/ without the [XXX]

He's not Cornish. Gwikor Frank (talk) 19:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia and a biography needs to reflect that. Without any prejudices. The Banner talk 20:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

It's weird how often "neutrality" seems to support the colonial English state, isn't it? Can't see any bias there! The powers that be controlling the media and education shows how neutral they are! Watering down of minority identities is a neutral act!

Ah, English Wikipedia. Gwikor Frank (talk) 12:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can clearly see your personal bias. But that is not the way forward to a reliable, neutral encyclopedia. The article already mentions that Stein was under pressure/attack of Cornish activists for being successful in Cornwall. You can add independent, reliable sources (see WP:RS and WP:V) to that section to explain why his success is a problem. The Banner talk 13:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Ow, and take a look at this article: Rick Stein's Cornwall. The Banner talk 20:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)