Talk:Ring, County Waterford

Lead sentence

Normal practice is to refer to the county and country a town is located in. Ring is a town in County Waterford, in the state of Ireland - so we should link to the state, not the island. Angr, there is an ongoing process around the use of 'Republic of Ireland' and 'Ireland'. Current practice is to use a pipelink so that the link to Republic of Ireland appears as Ireland. There is an Arbcom case around this whole area, which has led to WP:IECOLL. No changes to the above practice should be made without an agreement being reached on WP:IECOLL (and presumably being signed off by Arbcom). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Old Parish

Old Parish is not mentioned on this page. Is the Seanachai a part of Ring or Old Parish? Isn't that a lively country nightspot? It used to be. ~ R.T.G 20:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

What about Master McGragh? Where is he? ~ R.T.G 20:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Article Name

The official name of the area is An Rinn, The name Ring, while sometimes used in English, has no official standing. In terms of use, 'Ring, County Waterford' turns up 213,000 results in a Google Search whereas 'An Rinn' turns up 597,000. More importantly, in terms of sources, all state documents will refer to An Rinn, not Ring as the latter has no official standing. I would suggest that the name of the article be changed to 'An Rinn, County Waterford'. With the leading sentence changed to read:

'An Rinn or Rinn Ó gCuanach (anglicised as Ring or Ringagonagh[1]) is a parish within the Irish-speaking Gaeltacht na nDéise area in County Waterford, Ireland. It lies on a peninsula about seven miles south of Dungarvan. The main settlement is the village of An Rinn,[1] which is within the townland of Baile na nGall.'

Such a change would also bring this article into line with the other parish that makes up the Waterford Gaeltacht, An Seanphobal, which currently has the correct Irish name as the title of its article. Gaelmise (talk) 13:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

That's not the way it works. See WP:IMOS: "Where the English- and Irish-language names are the same or very nearly the same, but the spellings differ, use the English spelling." This rule is followed by two examples, Rosmuck and Inishmore, that are located in the Gaeltacht so that only the Irish name is official. Wikipedia follows common usage, not official dictates. Basically the only time we use the Irish name is when it's gained favor in English usage, e.g. Muine Bheag and Dún Laoghaire. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

My contention would be that An Rinn has gained favour in English usage, faulty and all as it is as a measurement, Google seems to give several times more hits to An Rinn (3.9 Million) than Ring, County Waterford (211,000). Gaelmise (talk) 17:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"An Rinn" actually returns only 57,300 results, not 3.9 million, and is not limited to results about the County Waterford town, obviously. It certainly helps having an active GAA team called the same thing...

"An Rinn, Co. Waterford" - 2,670 results.

"An Rinn, Waterford" - 11,000 results.

"An Rinn, Contae Phort Láirge" - "about 175 results"

"Ring, Co. Waterford" - 11,400 results.

"Ring, Waterford" - 14,500.

Your comparison is by no means fair, and is definitely overstated. Once again - your main contention needs to be discussed somewhere central (I've suggested IMOS) rather than you forum-shopping your way around the encyclopedia. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I honestly did get 3.9 Million results for 'An Rinn' earlier today. Right now, I get about 620,000 hits. See here: An Rinn. For Ring, County Waterford, I also get higher than you, about 216,000. See here: Ring, County Waterford. I take the point that a search for 'An Rinn' will show up more than just pages dealing with the town specifically, though to be fair there are probably a few jewelry shops showing up under 'Ring, County Waterford'. Google searches are not necessarily an ideal method for showing this kind of thing. It does show that An Rinn is in widespread use and as such I dont see that using it falls foul of the WP:COMMONNAME convention, especially when you take into account the likelihood that it is An Rinn that will be used in reliable government and academic sources in English.. Gaelmise (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Great result, while searching on "An" and "Rinn". But when you search for "Ring" and "Waterford", you get 919.000. And when you search on "An Rinn", you will only get 62.100 hits. The Banner talk 21:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but whichever way you come at this it seems your still getting more hits for the Irish version. As you can see here: "An Rinn, Co Waterford" gives 29,700 hits, "Ring, Co Waterford" only gives 11,500 hits. The Irish version is more than 2:1 ahead of the anglicization. Care to explain why you are both insisting on keeping it as the anglicization when the common name both in general use and in reliable sources is the Irish version? A little POV pushing on your own end perhaps? Gaelmise (talk) 11:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

No, Sir, just some creative and selective counting by you. Because when I do the same search I get 133.000 results. I am unable to replicate the result you get. The Banner talk 23:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

And yet when I open an Incognito tab in Chrome (so Google isn't showing me what it thinks I want to see) I get:

• "About 1,550 results" for "An Rinn, County Waterford" and
• "About 3,160 results" for "Ring, County Waterford". The English version is 2:1 ahead of the Irish version.
• "An Rinn, Co. Waterford" - "About 2,680 results".
• "Ring, Co. Waterford" - "About 11,500 results".

Try it - right-click on the links above and select "Open link in Incognito window." So the most common name is clearly the English version. Reliable sources use English, too. Please assume good faith. Can we stop wasting time on this? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Alright Bastun. I tried it, and I got the same result a I did previously

• "An Rinn, Co Waterford" gives 29,700 in a Google Incognito tab as you can see.
• "Ring, Co Waterford" gives only 11,500 in a Google incognito tab.

The Irish version of the name is also the one commonly found in government publications and in many academic works, Contests and Contexts by Dr John Walsh, one of the most detailed sources I have come across for An Rinn and other Gaeltacht areas uses the Irish name and not the anglicization. The Linguistic Study Of The Use Of Irish In The Gaetacht, another of the most important sources available also use the Irish name. I really am struggling to see the justification for keeping this page under an anglicization that is clearly not the common name either in general use or in reliable sources. You are correct, it is time to stop wasting time on this and just move it to the correct name. Gaelmise (talk) 13:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Why do keep talking about "reliable sources"? You keep referring to one book. It's hardly surprising - or significant - that a book about the Gaelteacht uses Irish names. It doesn't matter, and wouldn't, either, if there were 100 books - the common name for the town in the English language is Ring, as both The Banner and I have shown, and as Angr has argued. You're flogging a capall marbh. Your proposed move has no consensus. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:04, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Odd. When I type "An Rinn, Co Waterford" into Google (not that I would - the usual form is "County Waterford" or failing that "Co. Waterford", not "Co Waterford"), the page redirects to "https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22An+Rinn%2C+Co+Waterford%22&oq=%22An+Rinn%2C+Co+Waterford%22". Yours automagically replaced "Co Waterford" with "County+Waterford" in the address bar. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

The reason I keep referring to Reliable sources is that every Wikipedia policy on article names makes it clear that the name used should be the WP:COMMONNAME found in reliable sources Direct quote from the Policy: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources)". I refer to that book because it is a prime example of the point I am making, though there are other examples, like the Linguistic study of the Gaeltacht I linked to above. So you are quite wrong when you claim that the usage in reliable sources doesn't matter. It is central to the question. You can choose to ignore that point, but I feel that articles should be named in line with Wikipedia policy rather than your personal opinion. I Have shown that in general usage and in government and academic sources the Irish name has gained favor in English usage. Gaelmise (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Bastun, I'm not going to wast time quibbling with you over Google Searches and full stops. This is getting ridiculous. The Common Name in reliable sources is An Rinn. Gaelmise (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is getting ridiculous. This article is currently named in accordance with WP policy, WP:COMMONNAME. It is correct to say that some government and academic sources use the Irish version. Many of them are even talking about the town, not the GAA team. It is equally correct to say that many more general sources (and academic, for that matter!) still use the English version. Examples abound, including Google Scholar (13:1 English to Irish), for example.

The point about full stops, which you seem to be missing, is that the picture you posted shows a different search in the address bar than the one you're claiming the results for. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Again with the creative Google searches? What was the phrase you used earlier? 'Your comparison is by no means fair, and is definitely overstated'. Google Scholar gives 12,100 hits for "Ring, Co Waterford" and 12,200 for "An Rinn, Co Waterford". 13:1?. Gaelmise (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, 13:1. "Ring, County Waterford" vs "An Rinn, County Waterford". Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Article Name

There is no consensus to have the article moved to Ring, County Waterford. An Rinn is the common name of the area. It is by far the most widely used name in usefull sources in any language. I deal with these sources every day, and indeed create some of them from time to time. Ring, or Ringville as you also sometimes see, was the anglicisation of An Rinn, but it has been dropped from official use for years and has largely been dropped from use in general as well. Local GAA team uses An Rinn, not Ring, local community development groups use An Rinn, not Ring, local schools use An Rinn, not Ring. The previous discussion seems to have focused on Google searches, to be honest, the result of a Google search is irrelevant. There are plenty of things that 'Ring' can be refering to besides the place name and actual use, and the name found in sources is much more relevant than a Google search. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the article was at Ring, County Waterford, for ages, and there was/is no consensus to move it to the Irish version of the name. Your arguments have all already been addressed in the section immediately above. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 00:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Once again - see the section immediately above. You do not have consensus for a page move. If you wish to follow procedure, engage here and then open a Requested Move process. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Can I just ask, Why are you insisting on keeping the name incorrect? Surely you can see that the name used in sourses is generally An Rinn, and that An Rinn is the name that is used locally, An Rinn is used as I said by the local GAA, the local shop, local school etc. I don't know who you are, but I deal with the sources that can be used for this area on a regular basis, it is unusual to see Ring used in them, except ones that are quite old. Why use an outdated anglicisation, is the only reason because you find more results for Ring in a Google search? Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 11:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

First, thanks for engaging on the talk page. Who I am, or who you are, is irrelevant. The article belongs at "Ring, Co. Waterford" (or, more properly, "Ring, County Waterford", because - use by Irish-speakers living there aside - that's its common name in English.

• This is the English-language encyclopedia.
  • The Irish-language encyclopedia correctly has the equivalent article at An Rinn (Contae Phort Láirge)
• WP:COMMONNAME applies to article names.
• The IMOS covers this situation explicitly:
  • "Where the English- and Irish-language names are different:
    • and the English name predominates in English, use the English name (Wicklow, not Cill Mhantáin);
    • and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English, use the English name (Newbridge, not Droichead Nua).
    • and the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name (Muine Bheag, not Bagenalstown)."
  • The first two bullet points apply.
  • You will no doubt contend that the third bullet point is the one to use, as use of "An Rinn" predominates and it is official. It may do so locally, but it does not currently predominate nationally.
    • This has been proven, above, so I'm not going to repeat the search statistics at this time.

Hopefully this clarifies things for you. Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I am aware of the style guide and the point is that part three does indeed apply. The discussion above which you are basing your claims seems to be nothing more that a series of posts relating to the number of hits you got in a Google search, I take it then that Google is the sole basis of your argument? If it is, then your argument is baseless. Google hits are not how common usage is determined. See WP:UE

Quote from the Policy - 'The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g., the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used since they predominate in English language reliable sources, while for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, Delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).' (My Emphasis)

As a side note, even if Google hits was the correct way to determine common usage, how many hits in a search for 'Ring, County Waterford' have any relation to the place? A large chunk of them will be about a Jewelery shop selling Rings in Waterford, or someone having a Ring stolen from them in Waterford, someone talking about having to ring their mother in Waterford could well be included, or someone blowing out an o-Ring in their car in Waterford. (there is also more than one place called Waterford, so people talking about a Ring of some kind in any of those places is liable to be included.

Anyway, the question is which version, Ring or An Rinn predominates in reliable English Language Sources. The answer is, An Rinn does. As I said, I use these sources every day, and indeed as part of my work, create some of them from time to time. Who we are is of course irrelevant, I only bring it up because I am the local community development manager, as a result, I deal with these sources as part of my job, I'm very familiar with them. Government publications, which is of course one of the most important sources of information for the area uses An Rinn because that is the officially recognised name for the area. Acedemic sources almost invariably follow this convention. I can of course give examples of both. Ring has been used in the past, its not the case that it is never used, but is uncommon in reliable sources today. An Rinn predominates in reliable sources. General useage, it should be pointed out also favours An Rinn, almost all community groups in the area favour the use of An Rinn over Ring. In local media, the use of An Rinn predominates. (again, I can back up this claim if needs be).

You might be more familiar with Ring as the place name, but that does not matter, what matters is the use in Reliable sources, and in those sources, An Rinn predominates and as such, the article should be named 'An Rinn'. Or I suppose, 'An Rinn, County Waterford', but not 'Ring, County Waterford'. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 13:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you seem unfamiliar with how to use Google properly. Local usage is irrelevant and isn't mentioned in IMOS. Reliable sources still predominantly use Ring, the English version of the name. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:32, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

You said - 'Reliable sources still predominantly use Ring, the English version of the name.' Can you back up that claim? It's not sufficient simpy to assert that it is true. I can prove that An Rinn is far more common in reliable sources. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 14:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I see in the previous discussion you managed to find 13 sources using Ring on Google Scholar, hardily a credible sample size to demonstrate which has gained favor. If you have access to JSTOR you will find that An Rinn is used in millions of sources and is more than 7:1 more prelevant than Ring in English language sources. I can give you the screen shots to verify this if you don't have access. An Rinn is the predominant name in reliable English language sources and that is why the article should be named An Rinn. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 15:00, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Once again - WP:COMMONNAME. The results for common usage in reliable sources are available in the links in the above section. Do you want me to copy them down here again? (It's also perfectly possible to exclude results about women losing their rings in Waterford from results). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Bastun, this is just POV pushing at this stage, as I said millions of results on JSTOR show that An Rinn has indeed gained favor in English language sources over Ring, with at least 7:1 in terms of results. This really does trump that 13 hits you found for Ring on Google Scholar. Again, I am perfectly happy to show you the results if you don't have access to JSTOR to verify this, but keeping the article at Ring, County Waterford when the evidence shows clearly that An Rinn has gained favor in English language sources is untenable. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 15:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Here, see for your self:

Ring, County Waterford: [[1]]

An Rinn, County Waterford: [[2]]

I narrowed the search to only show content in English as that is what is relevant to the discussion. Ring, County Waterford got just over 900,000 results, An Rinn, County Waterford got 6.7 million. I should hope that is clear enough for you. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I will leave this here until tomorrow to see if anyone has a reasonable objection. If you do Bastun, please outline it, suggesting that 13 hits on Google scholar is a valid counter argument to the evidence shown here is hardily reasonable. I will move the page to An Rinn tomorrow if no one objects. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 15:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

You will not. There is a process for controversial moves: WP:RM. Do not misrepresent my words, which you have done above. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to represent your own words, please outline your objection to the move, if you have a valid one. As I showed, An Rinn has gained favour in reliable English language sources, as such the correct name for the article is An Rinn. If you have a valid reason to object to the move, state it. If not, then what is the problem? Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 18:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

Ok, Críostóir Ó Faoláin, I'm afraid this edit is just disruptive. "Removed inaccuracies. Ardmore ED is not in the Gaeltacht". So change that single sentence, then. The rest of your revert has the pointy effect of reverting most of the placenames to their Irish-language versions and removing "Ring" from the infobox. You are now clearly exhibiting ownership to impose a point-of-view that all English is bad and must be expunged. Please stop. Discuss changes here, first. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Further - Gaeltacht na nDéise certainly seems to suggest that Ardmore is in the Gaelteacht. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I would consider your editing to be disruptive, you removed a source and introduced inaccuries to the article in an effort to keep it in line with your own point of view. Ring is not the native name for the area. Ardmore is not the name of the ED in question, Aird Mhór is. The Ardmore ED is a different electoral division that is several miles further down the coast and is not in the Gaeltacht, it seems you lack familiarity with the area. As for your accusation that I think 'all English is bad and must be expunged', please cop on, there is no need for such nonsense. Perhaps you should step back and have a read of WP:GF before publicly making accusations about another user. As I have laid out above, the correct name for this article is An Rinn, my edits are to bring the article in line with this. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 13:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

And once again, this is the English-language encyclopedia, where the commonly-used English placenames are used. Cf Dingle not An Daingean or Daingean Uí Chúis; Spiddal not An Spidéal; and Vienna, not Wien. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

And once again, WP policy states that it is the name that has gained favour in English that is to be used, not some outdated anglicisation. Besançon is used not Besancon, Göttingen not Gottingen, Kolkata not Calcutta and An Rinn not Ring. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 14:44, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Outdated Anglicisation? Careful, your POV is showing... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Its a simple statement of fact, it is an Anglicisation because that should be obvious to anyone, and it is outdated because as I have shown above An Rinn has gained favor in reliable sources. Why can't you accept this? Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 15:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 24 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have a clear consensus that this is a preferable rendering of the name. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:16, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

---

Ring, Co. Waterford → Ring, County Waterford – Normal practice for Irish placename disambiguation is to use "Town, County Name" rather than "Town, Co. Name" (see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Ireland). The English-language name takes precedence over the Irish-language version per WP:COMMONNAME, the Irish Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). The latter states: "This page in a nutshell: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution." Reasons expanded below. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Support as nominator. Reasons:

• This is the English-language encyclopedia.
• WP:COMMONNAME applies to article names. We use the common English-language name - not necessarily the official name.
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) - General guideline 1 applies: "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always."
• Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_English (which expands on the above point) also applies. Ring is the commonly used name for the town in the English language.
• The IMOS covers this situation explicitly:
  • "Where the English- and Irish-language names are different:
    • and the English name predominates in English, use the English name (Wicklow, not Cill Mhantáin);
    • and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English, use the English name (Newbridge, not Droichead Nua).
    • and the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name (Muine Bheag, not Bagenalstown)."
  • The first two bullet points apply.
  • Some may contend that the third bullet point is the one to use, claiming that use of "An Rinn" predominates and it is the official name. It may predominate locally and within the Gaelteacht (Irish-speaking areas) generally, but it does not currently predominate nationally or elsewhere, and common name trumps official name.
• Evidence for the predominance of "Ring" over "An Rinn" (using Incognito search results, searching for "Ring, County Waterford" & "Ring, Co Waterford" versus "An Rinn, County Waterford" & "An Rinn, Co Waterford", including use of quotation marks):
  • Searching for reliable sources in Google Books:
    • Ring, Co waterford - 921 results vs An Rinn, Co Waterford - 50 results
  • Searching for reliable sources in Google News:
    • - Ring, Co Waterford - 42 results vs An Rinn, Co Waterford - 5 results
  • Google Scholar:
    • Ring, Co Waterford - 87 results (7 since 2012) vs An Ring, Co Waterford - 8 results (2 of which are in Irish) (2 since 2012)
  • Google (All):
    • Ring, Co Waterford - 9,510 results vs An Rinn - 3,820 results.

TL;DR version: per policy, "This page in a nutshell: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Move to: An Rinn

I oppose the move to Ring, County Waterford. The article should instead be moved to An Rinn. This argument is well supported by established naming policy on Wikipedia. As is outlined below, Wikipedia naming policy sets out clearly that articles should be named using the name found most frequently in reliable English Language sources. As such, the article should be named An Rinn. Naming the article Ring, County Waterford would be inconsistant with Wikipedia naming policy as Ring is not the most frequently used name in reliable English language sources. Naming this article An Rinn would be consistant with other pages on Wikipedia which use the native name of the place because that native name is most frequently used in English language sources. For example, we use Muine Bheag not Bagenalstown, Kolkata not Calcutta.

The proposer seems to be suggesting that there is a supposed automatic precidence for an English-language name over the Irish-language version in Wikipedia naming policy when they say 'The English-language name takes precedence over the Irish-language version'. This is Not the case. Wikipedia naming policy, as outlined below, has no automatic preference for an anglicised placename when that name is outdated or not commonly used. The preference is clearly for the most common name used in reliable English language sources. As per IMOS: 'when the Irish version is more common among English speakers, use the Irish version as the title of the article.'

• WP:UE Further supports this stance: 'The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g., the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used since they predominate in English language reliable sources.'

• WP:COMMONNAMEThis policy sets out that we should 'use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. I agree that the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources is what should be used.

• Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_English 'If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name.' In the case of the subject in question, the name An Rinn is more often used in English sources than the traditionally used anglicisations Ring, or Ringville. As I will demonstrate below, the most frequently used name in reliable English language sources to refer to the place in question is An Rinn. To use An Rinn is thus fully in line with Wikipedia article naming convention.

• IMOS The manual of style also supports the use of the Irish name for this article. It says where: 'the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name.' Again, I will show below that this is the case for An Rinn

Firstly I wish to make the case that An Rinn is infact the predominant name used in English language sources. To do this I have used JSTOR, a very valuable acedemic resource containing thousands of journals and books and used by thousands of third level institutions.

• JSTOR

Ring, County Waterford: [3] gets 923,326 hits, the alternative name that I propose, An Rinn: [4] gets 6,741,594 hits.

The search on JSTOR is limited to just English language sources. An Rinn comes in, amongst reliable English language sources, 7:1 ahead, in a very large sample size. An Rinn, clearly is the common name used in reliable English language sources and as such, the article should be moved to An Rinn.

Secondly I wish to refuit the proposers evidence claiming to show that Ring, County Waterford is predominant.

a) The way the proposer has chosen to go about supporting their case is flawed. They have searched for Ring, Co Waterford yet they are proposing to move the article to Ring, County Waterford. If they want to move the article to Ring, County Waterford, their evidence should be supporting that.

I have gone through the various parts of the proposers evidence and searched for the name they are proposing (Ring, County Waterford) and have also searched for the name I have proposed (An Rinn).

• Google Books:

Ring. County Waterford gets 123 hits, the alternative name that I propose, An Rinn gets 1,410 hits.

• Google News

Ring. County Waterford gets 5 hits, the alternative name that I propose, An Rinn gets 165 hits.

• Google Scholar

Ring. County Waterford gets 14 hits, the alternative name that I propose, An Rinn gets 222 hits.

• Google All

Ring. County Waterford gets 19,600 hits, the alternative name that I propose, An Rinn gets 64,300 hits.

In each case, An Rinn gets more hits than either Ring, Co Waterford or Ring, County Waterford.

b)Sources, the article name should be based on the predominant name found in reliable English language Sources. WP:SOURCE tells us that we should 'Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy' and that 'academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable source'. The Proposer has used Google to back up their claims. Google is not a very good source for reliable materials, however. JSTOR on the other hand is a large database full of reliable, third-party, published sources, academic and peer-reviewed publications and as such is a much better tool to use than Google.

c)The sample sizes that the proposer has used as evidence are too small. They are not sufficient to get a clear picture of the trend in terms of which name is predominant in reliable English language sources. JSTOR is a source of more reliable materials, and also gives a much bigger sample size.

In using JSTOR, we have access to a much larger sample size than provided by the proposer, which is based on more reliable sources. It is clear that An Rinn, and not Ring, County Waterford is predominant in relaible English language sources.

TL;DR version: An Rinn is the common name in reliable sources so move the page to An Rinn. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 21:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Response: "The way the proposer has chosen to go about supporting their case is flawed. They have searched for Ring, Co Waterford yet they are proposing to move the article to Ring, County Waterford. If they want to move the article to Ring, County Waterford, their evidence should be supporting that."

• Yes, and it does. For some reason you are misstating the results I obtained. The searches I conducted and provided links to are available above (and note, the searches were for both "Ring, Co Waterford" and "Ring, County Waterford" and were compared to "An Rinn, Co Waterford" and "An Rinn, County Waterford") and all contain higher numbers than you've given. You can see from the search URLs the terms that were used.

• Your own search is seriously flawed - you're simply not comparing like with like. As you've stated that you searched for "An Rinn" (no qualifier as to location), you'll also clearly be getting results returned for:
  • the Waterford GAA club, the Ring of Kerry, the folk band, the other organisations with An Rinn in their title (whether from Waterford or not);
  • all of the 22 other places in Ireland called An Rinn;
  • all of the 14 other placenames containing "An Rinn" as part of their name (An Rinn Aird, An Rinn Ard, An Rinn Bhán, An Rinn Bheag, An Rinn Bhreac, An Rinn Bhuí, An Rinn Dubh) that logainm lists as "Related names" when you search for "An Rinn"
  • all of the seven placenames that are variations on "An Rinn Mhór" (Renmore or Rinmore), not listed by logainm's "Related names" (which certainly also implies that the seven "Related names" listed by logainm is not exhaustive.

• Still - this would illustrate that if anything, "An Rinn" certainly wouldn't have primacy in any case, and should be a disambiguation page at most. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:11, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment from Voter: The Closing admin shoud note that the results for An Rinn, County Waterford in JSTOR are not significantly different from An Rinn, as shown in the discussion that took place prior to the request to move the article name was made. To compare like with like as the Proposer has requested, An Rinn, County Waterford gets 6,783,707 hits [5] on JSTOR as compared to 6,741,594 hits for An Rinn. Either are significantly more prevelant (more than 7:1) than the proposers requested name, Ring, County Waterford.

It should be stressed that Google is a limited tool when it comes to searching for reliable sources in English. And again, the sample size the proposer is basing their case on is far to small. Comparitivly, JSTOR is entirely composed of reliable sources and gives a much greater sample size. An Rinn is the predominant name found in reliable sources and as such, An Rinn should be used for the name of the article. The proposer should, however, feel free to set up an An Rinn (Disambigulation) page if they feel that such a page is merited. Críostóir Ó Faoláin (talk) 12:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Further above, you demonstrated that you didn't quite get how Google searches worked. Here, I'm afraid you're also demonstrating that you don't know how JSTOR searches work. You should be enclosing your search terms in quotation marks, not double parentheses as you have used. Searching JSTOR for

• ("An Rinn, County Waterford") AND la:(eng OR en) gives me one single result;
• ("An Rinn, Co Waterford") AND la:(eng OR en) gives me a single (different) result;
• ("Ring, County Waterford") AND la:(eng OR en) gives me five results;
• ("Ring, Co Waterford") AND la:(eng OR en) gives me six results.

The search you conducted seems to be one that generates a result if any one of the search terms are present. Searching within the paper "Vasovagal response secondary to permanent contraception device in pulmonary arterial hypertension" (one of the results returned by your search) finds zero instances of the words "Rinn", "County", or "Waterford", for example, but 20 results for "An". Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:59, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

By way of an experiment, I went to see how Dublin fares on JSTOR. You know - Dublin, the capital of Ireland, and a city in Ohio with a population of 40,000 people. Only just over 215,000 results. Odd - articles mentioning "Dublin" are only 3% as frequent as articles mentioning "An Rinn, County Waterford". Apparently. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:44, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Move To: An Rinn I agree that the page should be moved to An Rinn instead of Ring, County Waterford Irlandesaaa (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC) Strike vote as editor is blocked as sockpuppet. The Banner talk 11:05, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

The closing admin should note that the above !vote is that editor's only ever contribution to Wikipedia. Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:11, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Irlandesaaa, I have filed a sockpuppet investigation as I do not believe that you are a genuine editor. See: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Críostóir Ó Faoláin The Banner talk 22:04, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support move "Ring, Co. Waterford" to "Ring, County Waterford" for the same reasons as the nominator. And to add for that: I fail to replicate the statistics as used in the prior discussion and earlier in this discussion, making them unreliable. The Banner talk 17:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support, moving from Ring, Co, Waterford to Ring, County Waterford, actually complies with MOS, and in itself is uncontroversial. Murry1975 (talk) 09:14, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to Ring, County Waterford. In the absence of clarity over Google searches etc., it is safer to stick with the English name, and change "Co." to "County". Scolaire (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Ring, County Waterford. Snappy (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Irish Language

There is no Electoral Division in Waterford called Ring or Ballymacart, the electoral division called Ardmore is a different one to the one refered to in the article, which is called Aird Mhór. This is not mere opinion, it is fact as is shown in two seperate references in the article. The claim that 'Ring' is widely used in the Place Name section is however an opinion and should not be included in the article unless a source can be found to back it up. WP:STICKTOSOURCE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.167.183 (talk) 16:20, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

You have to stick to sources that back up the statement, not falsified ones. That you claim that "Nuachonrú ar an Staidéar Cuimsitheach Teangeolaíoch ar Úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht: 2006–2011" also covers 2014 is clearly untrue.

And beside that, this is the English-language Wikipedia. Not the Irish Wikipedia. Please move your battlefield mentality and POV-pushing elsewhere. The Banner talk 16:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Nuashonrú ar an Staidéar Cuimsitheach Teangeolaíoch ar Úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht: 2006–2011 is a secondary source that was published in 2014. It is an update of a report published in 2007 that dealt with, amongst other things, the data from the 2002 census. The 2014 update deals with, amongst other things, the 2006 and 2011 census. The sources do back up my statement. Two seperate sources on the article back up the fact that the name of the Electoral Divisions are as I have put them several times. The English-Language Wikepedia, like any other version of Wikipedia is supposed to be factual, based on the sources. The sources do not give Ring as the name of the ELectoral Division so I suggest that you WP:STICKTOSOURCE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.167.183 (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

No Sir, your source does not back up the 2014 figures. And again, this is the English Wikipedia, not the Irish. The Banner talk 16:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes sir it does. It is where the 2014 figure came from, it is why the 2014 figure is called the 2014 figure. The report the figure came from was published in 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.167.183 (talk) 16:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

In that case, the figure is still not from 2014 but from the 2011 Census, so 2011-figures.

And please, read this talk page and let the prior discussions sink in. You are just disruptive and POV-pushing. Just like a few lads before... The Banner talk 17:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read WP Policy again. WP:GF It is very clear that the changes I made are supported by the sources. The sources do not say that the names of the Electoral Divisions in question are Ring, Ballymacart and Ardmore. The sources say that they are called An Rinn, Baile Mac Airt and Aird Mhór. There is a good reason for this, it is becuase their names are infact called An Rinn, Baile Mac Airt and Aird Mhór. That this is the English-Language wikipedia does not require us to use incorrect names that are not supported by the sources. Wikipedia Policy WP:STICKTOSOURCE actually requires that we use the correct names as shown in the source material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.167.183 (talk) 17:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Just read this talk page. The Banner talk 17:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I have, and I don't see anything in it that would compell us to use the incorrect name for an Electoral division or go againt WP Policy WP:STICKTOSOURCE As for the claim previously found in the Place Name section that Ring is widely used in Waterford and elsewhere. There was no citation for this. WP Policy WP:PRIMARY states: Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. As such, this cliam should have no place in the article untill a source can be found to back it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.167.183 (talk) 17:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:IMOS and WP:SKYISBLUE, Críostóir. Read previous talk page sections, please. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

We are talking about Electoral Divisions, they are a creation of the state, they do not have a common name as they are not commonly talked about. People might say they were visiting Dungarvan or live in Dungarvan, not ED Dungarvan No. 2 Urban. If you are talking about Ring, or Old Parish as a general place, then WP:IMOS has something to say about which version of the name should be used. But when talking about an Electoral Division such as An Rinn, Baile Mhac Airt or Dungarvan Rural for that matter, then the only name they have is the official name.

As for the claim that the use of Ring when refering to the area is widespread in Waterford and elsewhere is a sky is blue issue. It clearly is not. The level of disagreement evident in this talk page alone is enough to make that obvious. As such, we should stick to source and not make claimes that are unsupported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.203.178 (talk) 12:16, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Hard as this may be to accept, Críostóir, electoral divisions can be and are translated from Irish into English. Or indeed, English to Irish, over on ga.wikipedia.org. This is the English-language Wikipedia and so, per WP:IMOS, we will use English.

As for use of Ring vs An Rinn, please stop flogging this. The hard numbers are evident in the results reproduced in the section immediately above. The "level of disagreement" is one PoV-pushing editor and his sock, versus everyone else. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:55, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

The claimed figure for percentage of Irish speakers for 2014 is not present in the citation being inserted by the anon IP author. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:02, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

As such, we should stick to source and not make claimes that are unsupported. Then why do you use a source that does not back up what you claim to back up? The Banner talk 19:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC)